Newbie #851 (Game Over!)

[PorkchopExpress]

Mykonians death was a huge surprise to me.

[1]

I really thought Porkchop was going down since

to me

he was the most towniest.

[2]

This also makes me suspicious of him, because I think the scum would've known I was going to vote mykonian in lylo.

[3]

Right now my two suspects for scum are spinach and porkchop.

[4]

Pierre has since come off as townie to me, although in day 4 lylo I might lean his way depending on who also is still in the game.

Since this is lylo, I'm claiming. I'm vanilla town.

If there is a cop in the game, I'd suggest that person claim to hopefully clear someone.

Bold is mine.

1- Bad grammar aside, Who you consider to be the most townie means nothing unless you are scum. The scum determine who the best NK target is according to whatever method they choose to utilise, how the rest of us feel about it is pretty immaterial. I'm glad that your lylo argument essentially boils down to: "This guy is too townie to be town." You may want to strongly consider that statement for a moment.

2- A terrible, terrible argument that is steeped in WIFOM.

3- I would like to know how you arrived at this pairing, S4L. Was my entirely unprovoked scum read on him bussing for the sake of it? The only reason that case didn't go anywhere was because of dismissive posts like this.

4- Still waiting for more details here, S4L.

I'm not the cop, I am Vanilla.

Still favouring a Spinach lynch today. I'm feeling that S4L could be his buddy considering how little he addressed Spinach at all and then his sudden (and totally unexplained) scum read including a nonsensical pairing with me.

[swimmer4lyfe]

sorry haven't been around, lots of real life drama. Getting out of work early today so will spend a couple hours going through posts today and have a long explanation of my thoughts

[iamausername]

-=Vote Count #17=-

Not Voting (5) - Einlanzers, Pierre Sickle, PorkchopExpress, Spinach, swimmer4lyfe

3 to lynch.

-=Pierre Sickle has been prodded=-

[Spinach]

What do you mean by 'no more information'? What information do you mean? How can it help scum?

I mean don't give a full list of everyone that is alive and what you think their alignment is. Because if everyone did this then scum would know:
A) Who is the scummiest and could push for their lynch
B) Who is the towniest and could pick a NK much easier.

If we just say our scummiest then we only have to worry about A and not B.

Yes, I agree that we shouldn't be ranking everyone, but sometimes explaining why someone isn't scum is as important as explaining why someone is, such as the case with S4L. He guns for Pierre a lot and then thinks he is town. That can't go unexplained.


Also, Einlanzers, you're the only one that hasn't claimed, can you do so?

[Pierre Sickle]

Confirming Activity.

Yes, I do. He has dodged posts and made excuses too many times to be town. Plus of some of the things you have pointed out (besides the first point before the numbered list, as I don't know if you are town yourself.)

What do you mean by 'no more information'? What information do you mean? How can it help scum?

Before I started being suspicious of you, you weren't on my tail at all. The moment I started giving some seriously tiny accusations, you jump ship (wagon) like everyone else, moreso agressively I must say, just like how I was playing when we started playing. I think after reading a few guides, articles and what not, I'm starting to feel relaxed and easier on this game. I can scumhunt, like I'm trying to now, but I can always choose better wording. Well, that's my two cents.

In anycase, I'm just curious what people's thoughts are for their #1 scum (please no more information;

[!]we don't want to give scum any extra information[!]

)
@Spinach, it looks like you suspect Pierre the most?

[!] Is there a term for a remark like this? It sounds a little "iffy" to me, I don't know, it just doesn't set me right.

[Spinach]

Confirming Activity.

Yes, I do. He has dodged posts and made excuses too many times to be town. Plus of some of the things you have pointed out (besides the first point before the numbered list, as I don't know if you are town yourself.)

What do you mean by 'no more information'? What information do you mean? How can it help scum?

Before I started being suspicious of you, you weren't on my tail at all. The moment I started giving some seriously tiny accusations, you jump ship (wagon) like everyone else, moreso agressively I must say, just like how I was playing when we started playing. I think after reading a few guides, articles and what not, I'm starting to feel relaxed and easier on this game. I can scumhunt, like I'm trying to now, but I can always choose better wording. Well, that's my two cents.

What? Go look at my posts in isolation. Read them. I voted you up until the end yesterday because I thought you were/are scummy, and you also weren't responding. And if I jumped ship, who's ship did I jump from? You and Alv were my top suspects... and Alv was lynched.
And what you're falsely calling on me is an OMGUS, something you have been doing all game.

[PorkchopExpress]

Alright, here are some belated responses to Spinach. The heart of our disagreement is based around whether or not there is a disconnect in Spinach’s play. It’s summed up in a few key issues:
1- The S2R hammer.
2- Avoiding the NK
3- Being overly concerned with appearing Townie.

Number 1 is a case that I’ve already made, but Spinach has weakly challenged it so here is my rebuttal. Your counter argument is that you weren’t sure what to do, and that you never stated that you would prefer a no lynch over a claimless mislynch. (In fact, you went so far as to say that you wanted a claim to avoid mislynching a PR specifically.) The second part is easily addressed. You didn’t have to state that position, your actions did it for you. About a day from deadline, you were weighing up the merits of not voting since it seemed that no claims would be forthcoming. This shows that your earlier stance of mislynching wasn’t as solid as you had made out; and that when push came to shove you were unwilling to commit those words into action until other players assured you that your actions were ok. The first part is possible, but unlikely, considering your earlier views (which you conveniently forgot about when rebutting my point). Your play is not matching the stances that you are presenting in the game.

Number 2 and 3 work together in tandem to display scummy flip-flopping. On the one hand, you were trying to avoid the NK by not presenting yourself as townie. On the other, you admit that you’re concerned with how you are perceived and don’t consider it scummy to try and come off as townie. This is an impossibly fine line to take. Either you’re trying to be townie or you aren’t, and your answer to that changes depending on whatever will best defend you at the time.

Seriously, Spinach is terribly scummy guys.

[Pierre Sickle]

Okay, sorry, I've seriously been sick, and really, it's getting hard to play the game.

So, you've been sick all game . .? I don't by this excuse.

It's "buy". We all make spelling errors (see next third wording, I'm working backwards on this post), I haven't been sick ALL game. I only stated about midway, there's a life outside of the computer and believe it or not... it sucks.

Anyway, seeing as there isn't much for me to chain down on, I'm going to go on basics. I'm still on Spinach's tail for the reasons before

Oh, you mean the ones that you have yet to respond to?

, and now, for just hammering Alv. It's basically nothing, but it could get the game moving on. I've claimed, and with that claim, I can stand behind it. For Spinach, I think that he's scum mainly because of just jumping the bandwagon.

I thought I clearly stated I was leaning Alviaran in 366, 371, and 377. 378 came off to me as saying that someone needs to hammer already, so I did. It seems everyone was waiting on it.
And aren't you admitting you're scum saying I'm scummy for hoping on Alviaran's bandwagon? There were 2 options, you or Alv. You're saying I'm scummy because I switched from you to Alviaran 'at the last second'.

The only way this could have been scummy is if you were scum and I were scum, and I jumped off your wagon at the last minute to save you.

This comes off as a major tell to me. By saying I'm scum you're saying that you're scum.

If I were scum and you were scum and you jumped off my wagon at the last minute to save me is the only way? By saying that, you basically say that you think that my reasoning isn't right. Think about it, wouldn't it be just a tad little suspicious? Does your tell make sense at all? If anything else, this just implies more reasoning to my suspicion.

But yes, the town did actually need to get someone out of the way. But it would've made more sense if he got me. One being, that the majority of the town really doesn't like my vibe, even after sending in a claim, though I must admit did seem shaky after re-reading, and, I even had a case on him.

Well, I'm still on me.

I'm a walking heap of contradictions, but I can reverse 'em if I think. Smile

Why are you advocating your own lynch . .? Have you just given up?

Messed up wording. I was meant to type "him". By him, guess it meant you buddy.

Since this is lylo, I'm claiming. I'm vanilla town.

If there is a cop in the game, I'd suggest that person claim to hopefully clear someone.

Blue. I won't be the first to say that my play at the start of this game was incredibly bad, aggressive, but seriously, after a little guide reading it really helped. Thanks whoever (or probably all of you) pointed that out, but I think I should've known from all the accusations anyway. Still, droppin' down and defending now.

[PorkchopExpress]

@Pierre: your current reads on Einlazers and S4L.

@Einlazers: Your current read of Spinach and S4L.

@S4L: Details about your Pierre and Spinach reads.

@Spinach: Your current read of S4L and Einlazer.

[iamausername]

-=swimmer4lyfe and Einlanzers have been prodded=-

[Einlanzers]

Sorry guys I'm going to be V/LA until tomorrow (Sunday) night I will read everything and post then

[Einlanzers]

What do you mean by 'no more information'? What information do you mean? How can it help scum?

I mean don't give a full list of everyone that is alive and what you think their alignment is. Because if everyone did this then scum would know:
A) Who is the scummiest and could push for their lynch
B) Who is the towniest and could pick a NK much easier.

If we just say our scummiest then we only have to worry about A and not B.

Yes, I agree that we shouldn't be ranking everyone, but sometimes explaining why someone isn't scum is as important as explaining why someone is, such as the case with S4L. He guns for Pierre a lot and then thinks he is town. That can't go unexplained.


Also, Einlanzers, you're the only one that hasn't claimed, can you do so?

Well I guess you are are correct. It is nowhere near the beginning of the game, so we should be more concerned with finding scum than worrying about who they are going to NK.

Also, I am vanilla townie. Nothing but votes from me.

In anycase, I'm just curious what people's thoughts are for their #1 scum (please no more information;

[!]we don't want to give scum any extra information[!]

)
@Spinach, it looks like you suspect Pierre the most?

[!] Is there a term for a remark like this? It sounds a little "iffy" to me, I don't know, it just doesn't set me right.

Hrm, not sure what you mean. Are you saying my using the word "extra"? Of course we don't want to give mafia ANY information, but in this case in particular we don't really have a choice (unless we don't want to scumhunt).

@Einlazers: Your current read of Spinach and S4L.

I'm still getting a fairly townie read of S4L. Spinach is looking more-so scum (for the hammer dropping yesterday), but besides that...not too terribly scummy.

@PCE,
You mention me twice, S4L thrice, Spinach twice, and Pierre once. Does this mean you suspect Pierre least and S4L most?

[Spinach]

Pierre:
First part: No need to nitpick spelling/grammar errors, and what I meant there was that your activity has been down all game, and that it just seemed like another excuse.

Second: Let me ask a question: How was me hammering Alv scummy? The only way I can see it as scummy is the bolded statement,

". . . you were scum and I were scum, and I jumped off your wagon at the last minute to save you."

You must be seeing it in a different way than me.

Third: Now this one just confuses me. Could you clarify?


S4L is coming off as slight scum (due to those sudden reads, might change if what he posts makes.. sense) with Einlanzers as town at this point.

[Pierre Sickle]

If I tell you what's with the third part, you'll understand the first.

The third part, I meant to say "him" instead of "me", which was a spelling error.

I was working backwards on the post so the first part was done last.

Second one, I'll repeat again and even quote it.

It's basically nothing, but it could get the game moving on.

It was just to get some discussion coming and it did actually.

[PorkchopExpress]

(I'm being distracted by this Theme Game that I'm having trouble getting my head around, but I'll be more active guys.)

@Einlazers: I'm pretty sure that PS is suggesting that you're trying to overemphasise towniness (sans scumhunting) with that comment. In the same way that bemoaning an NK or loss of a PR would be iffy play. Am I right, Pierre?

Also in answer to your question, no not really. I just noticed that the thread had gone dark for a little while so I thought I would try and get people to post with some questions. I think Town can only stand a chance in LyLo if they share all the information that they can as clearly, earnestly and as soon as possible. I think it's important to make sure that players aren't afforded an opportunity to ignore other players. Hence my questions. The numbers more or less progress logically from there.

@Spinach: Define make sense? Which ones are bothering you or is it all of them? Currently he's got you as scum, Pierre (formerly scum) as town and me (formerly town) as scum. Mine has been explained (albeit weakly) does it make sense to you? Does a Pierre/S4L pairing make sense to you? If so, why?

@Pierre: Please answer the previous question.

@Everyone: What do you make of S4L's WIFOM-based NK discussion?

[Pierre Sickle]

@PCE: With Einlazers, he's still quite townish, with semi-strong defence and quite some good storng hunting. I'd actually class him more as a neutrality pose with those traits actually, which we could take note for ultimately.

S4L actually makes me gather some towny like presence for me, though there's little action happening.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: 392
Well guys were at lylo.

I'm actually quite surprised mykonian and alv flipped townie. Apparently I've been picking up on the wrong things.

Mykonians death was a huge surprise to me. I really thought Porkchop was going down since to me he was the most towniest. This also makes me suspicious of him, because I think the scum would've known I was going to vote mykonian in lylo.

Right now my two suspects for scum are spinach and porkchop. Pierre has since come off as townie to me, although in day 4 lylo I might lean his way depending on who also is still in the game.

Since this is lylo, I'm claiming. I'm vanilla town.

If there is a cop in the game, I'd suggest that person claim to hopefully clear someone.

And read through a little more, you'll see what his posting format is loosely going through.

[Einlanzers]

Second: Let me ask a question: How was me hammering Alv scummy? The only way I can see it as scummy is the bolded statement,

". . . you were scum and I were scum, and I jumped off your wagon at the last minute to save you."

You must be seeing it in a different way than me.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but this is one of my reasons for suspecting you, so I'll answer it aswell. I don't like your hammer because of this:
1) ISO 18 and before you are focused on Pierre
2) ISO 19 You mention that you aren't sure, but are leaning towards Alv because PS hasn't done anything scummy while Alv has.
3) ISO 20 reitterates ISO 19
4) ISO 21 is the hammer
So basically...you vote Pierre and continually bombard Pierre with accusations then when it gets closer to lynch time you say that you are unsure, then say you think Alv is scum then hammer him. NOWHERE do you mention specific reasons why you thought Alvarian is scum. THIS IS VERY SCUMMY.

@Einlazers: I'm pretty sure that PS is suggesting that you're trying to overemphasise towniness (sans scumhunting) with that comment. In the same way that bemoaning an NK or loss of a PR would be iffy play. Am I right, Pierre?

Oh so it looks like I'm trying too hard to look town? Hrm I guess I wont give anymore tips to help the town win then :/.

Also in answer to your question, no not really. I just noticed that the thread had gone dark for a little while so I thought I would try and get people to post with some questions. I think Town can only stand a chance in LyLo if they share all the information that they can as clearly, earnestly and as soon as possible. I think it's important to make sure that players aren't afforded an opportunity to ignore other players. Hence my questions. The numbers more or less progress logically from there.

So you say "not really" then you say "The numbers progress logically from there." So are the numbers your true feelings or not? I am confused.

@Everyone: What do you make of S4L's WIFOM-based NK discussion

Are you referring to this?:

Mykonians death was a huge surprise to me. I really thought Porkchop was going down since to me he was the most towniest. This also makes me suspicious of him, because I think the scum would've known I was going to vote mykonian in lylo.

If so I don't like it for 2 reasons:
1) NK analysis is so very WIFOM it makes my head spin, so it should never be used as a main case.
2) It doesn't even make since. If PCE was scum and he knew that S4L would vote Mykonian in LyLo why would he off Mykonian. Unless you think WIFOM-y.
I don't think this makes S4L scummy; I just think his point is moot.

[Spinach]

Pierre:
So you just made up a reason for why I'm scummy to get discussion going? Couldn't you have used a better way?


Einlanzers:
First of all, here's a quote from iso 18:

I'm willing to hammer Alv once he claims. That last post seemed like a desperate scum trying to make a case on someone to save him/herself.

Which I stated I was probably going to hammer Alv at that point, and gave one reason. I didn't state the other ones because I thought it was obvious what the case was, and there was no point in saying it over again, and I even FoS'd Alv in iso 16.
I then reversed back to split because at that point I thought one of them had to be scum, and I thought that scum would know if cop existed or not, so I was thinking that one of them would claim cop, and I could deduce from that who was scum, but they both were Vanilla so that didn't happen. I believe I did a re-read at that point which confirmed my thinking of Alv over Pierre, then noticed everyone was waiting around for a hammer, so I hammered.

PCE:
By 'make sense' I meant if his explanations of his reads were crap (too townie to be town; too scummy to be scum) or if they contained tells and things that logically made sense.
To me, his read on you makes little sense, due to the things you've already explained. (very WIFOM-y)
And I can't really say if the Pierre read makes sense unless I know why he thinks Pierre is town, same with me.
And the reason of the pairing was why I kept it as slight scum, because a Pierre/S4L pairing little sense, because I doubt a scum would do that much busing D1, but something about the sudden town read makes me think it's possible. (This all depends on S4L's response.)

[PorkchopExpress]

@Einlazers:
First quote: It's Pierre's argument.

Enough townies believe in keeping cards close to their chest that it isn't scummy in the ways that my other two examples are; but I do disagree slightly with the stance, in the same way I disagree with people who "don't want to put their case up first, so the scum can't take advantage of it". We're at the brink of endgame here, and that's when Townies need to put all their cards on the table. You might not get another chance to share that information, and not discussing people beyond your lead suspects can easily allow scum to coast under the radar. Worrying about NKs is getting ahead of ourselves, since we need to make it through the Day first. But this is theory and we're best off discussing it another time.

Second quote: You've misunderstood me, Einlazers. The reason Pierre is mentioned the least in that post is because he's been mentioned the most by the remaining players. Spinach and yourself have already outlined cases against him today (and earlier). I want more information from S4L because I want him to account for the change in his read. And asking any player to comment on themselves is... kinda pointless.

So, the numbers are meant to reflect how much (or little) mention those players have had.

3rd/4th quotes: Yes, that is what I'm talking about. While it may just be a bad argument, you don't get scummy sensations from the way he has done complete 180 on Pierre and I, and then offered Spinach as a a suspect, with little to no reasoning attached? It's LyLo and after all of his thorough cases, S4L has offered nothing here. That doesn't get your suspicions up?

My Reads:

Einlazers - Has manged to avoid the spotlight for most of the game, but not from lurking. On Day 1, he didn't offer a lot of opinions but has since come good. He comes in with logical and transparent reasoning and asks a lot of questions to guide his play. Which is townie to me. Some of his arguments with other players have ended with the participants talking past each other a little (although, in Day 1, Spinach overreaches in an attempt to spot contradictions in Ein's play that just aren't there).

Pierre - I'm keeping an outside possibility that he's scum, because he is coasting through this game a little. However, it's hard to tell since some of his answers are just totally... inaccessible, for me. His last post demonstrates my point perfectly. I understand that he has a town read on S4L, but I have no idea what he's talking about when he throws in that quote. It looks like he's trying to back up his read with evidence (and he does this on a few occasions) but the evidence isn't self-explanatory and his arguments get a little muddled. It's the age old issue in Mafia: deciding whether play is scummy or just lack lustre. His read on S4L has flipped as well, I'd like to know more about that.

His facts around Spinach are slightly incorrect. Spinach did vote him first (he didn't construct a case, he joined the bandwagon) and Pierre didn't end up mentioning him until well after the fact on Day 2. But I think he has a point that Spinach's support of the Alviaran wagon reeks of opportunism (in the same way that his place on the Pierre wagon did). There are just enough flashes of town mentality at this stage to keep him from being my prime suspect, but more (and clearer) reasoning is required.

@Pierre: More details on why S4L is town in your eyes. Has your case on Spinach developed from bandwagon-hopping? Are you in agreement with the other cases being presented against Spinach? Why/ Why not? Who is ScumSpinach's partner, in your opinion?

Currently: Spinach is my preferred candidate for lynch, with S4L and Pierre just a few steps behind him, but on about equal footing.

[PorkchopExpress]

I then reversed back to split because at that point I thought one of them had to be scum, and

I thought that scum would know if cop existed or not, so I was thinking that one of them would claim cop, and I could deduce from that who was scum

, but they both were Vanilla so that didn't happen.

While you're right that scum will know the set up and would know if Cop was a safe claim, it's not the best way to find scum (I've learnt from personal experience). You should definitely be wary of a PR claim after another PR has been eliminated, but the set up with both happen.

PCE:
By 'make sense' I meant if his explanations of his reads were crap (too townie to be town; too scummy to be scum) or if they contained tells and things that logically made sense.
To me, his read on you makes little sense, due to the things you've already explained. (very WIFOM-y)
And I can't really say if the Pierre read makes sense unless I know why he thinks Pierre is town, same with me.
And the reason of the pairing was why I kept it as slight scum, because a Pierre/S4L pairing little sense, because I doubt a scum would do that much busing D1, but something about the sudden town read makes me think it's possible. (This all depends on S4L's response.)

This pretty much highlights our problem at the moment, we need to hear from S4L.

[Pierre Sickle]

Alright, PCE, you really gotta slow down man. This scumhunting is a good idea, getting mafia to crack under all the questions.

But sometimes, it's all too much, I'll be spending the next half-hour or so gathering quotes on S4L, and to get things cleared up out of the clear. I have to say now that calling Spinach's hammer was only to spark some sort of discussion, not so much of an accusation. In my opinion, I'll have to check up some more onto who Spinach's buddy is.

And to close this post, can we just get some of the people who haven't voted in a while to come out and give some feedback. I think we could really use it.

[Pierre Sickle]

By the way, Spinach, you could make an effort to snoop around a little more.

Really, we need all the help we can on this.

[Einlanzers]

Currently: Spinach is my preferred candidate for lynch, with S4L and Pierre just a few steps behind him, but on about equal footing.

Honestly Post 417 made me think twice about the Spinach case. The only thing I really have against him is that hammer and I am starting to see why he may have done the things that he did... Pierre is still my #1. With S4L/Spinach tied at #2.

And to close this post, can we just get some of the people who haven't voted in a while to come out and give some feedback. I think we could really use it.

You do realize that the only person that hasn't posted in awhile is S4L, right? Everyone else is at least posting something recently.

By the way, Spinach, you could make an effort to snoop around a little more.

Really, we need all the help we can on this.

Really? I haven't seen you make a well-founded case all game. It'd be nice if you did some scumhunting and actually did the town a favor.

[Pierre Sickle]

Page 14:

Post 345

Great too you are buddying to Swimmer. He has only reacted to me, never analysed my play, since you are the first one.

So now Myk has accused two players of "buddying up" with me. This tingles my spider sense.

He unvotes me because he thinks I'm town, but then he keeps throwing these little subtle jabs at people, implying he still thinks I'm town.

What's up with this myk? Wasn't your aggressive attack on me supposed to tell you my alignment? Why are you dropping subtle hints that you still think I'm scum?

---

Page 15

Post 361

I haven't looked over Spinach with as much scrutiny as myk, pierre or alv. Will have to do that.

Myk, just because someone agrees with my logic doesn't mean they're buddying up. I think its a little scummy that anyone "agreeing" with me or thinking that your whole case against me was wrong is suddenly portrayed as scummy. Another reason why I think you made up the silly "I was just trying to figure out your alignment" case.

Alv is by far the best choice for the lynch. I'm also down for a pierre or myk lynch, but prefer Alv. Pierre I'm beginning to feel is just horribly horribly newbish and is refusing to learn from his mistakes. Possible scum cover? maybe...but this is the stuff that makes towns lose at lylo. We should've lynched him day 1.

Post 370

I'm ok with either of them being lynched. I prefer Alv though.

Although it is kinda funny that Pierre is the only one that hasn't voted yet and he hasn't tried to save himself.

---

Page 16

378

So I guess we're waiting on either the people from Pierre's bandwagon to jump ship or someone from Alv's bandwagon to jump ship.

I guarantee you that Pierre will not figure out that he needs to vote.

382

right now for me its either pierre/alv or myk/alv as the two scum. I can see Pierre being scum, but I'm almost positive Alv is one of the scum, and would rather lynch Alv

392

Well guys were at lylo.

I'm actually quite surprised mykonian and alv flipped townie. Apparently I've been picking up on the wrong things.

Mykonians death was a huge surprise to me. I really thought Porkchop was going down since to me he was the most towniest. This also makes me suspicious of him, because I think the scum would've known I was going to vote mykonian in lylo.

Right now my two suspects for scum are spinach and porkchop. Pierre has since come off as townie to me, although in day 4 lylo I might lean his way depending on who also is still in the game.

Since this is lylo, I'm claiming. I'm vanilla town.

If there is a cop in the game, I'd suggest that person claim to hopefully clear someone.

---

My take on the posts

Page 14 Posts:

P345 - Defence with a little accusation

Page 15 Posts:

P361 - Sees me as scum

P370 - Sees me as scum though prefers Alv

Page 16 Posts:

P378 - Stating Situation

P382 - Sees me as possible scum but positive on Alv

P392 - Suddenly thinks I have a townie vibe

So, towards, swimmer, is there any particular reason you think I'm town now? All the posts have pretty no say in how I suddenly seem all townish.

[PorkchopExpress]

Pierre, questioning is good, but do you feel that S4L's play is scummy? (Pending reply and so on.)

@Ein: You're no longer concerned about Spinach'a tendency to play up pure towniness?

In other news, we really need to hear from S4L because he's coming close to getting replaced.