Mafia 105 - Caught in the Crossfire (Game Over)

[elvis_knits]

Vote Count, Day 1

hiphop ( 0 )
Budja ( 1 ) SpyreX
charter ( 0 )
crypto ( 0 )
CSL ( 1 ) - RedCoyote
elvis_knits ( 0 )
Energetic Penguin ( 5 ) hitogoroshi - popsofctown - hiphop - imaginality - Vi
hitogoroshi ( 0 )
Hoopla ( 0 )
Idiotking ( 4 ) RayFrost - Hoopla - sigma - elvis_knits
imaginality ( 0 )
Infinis ( 1 ) roflcopter
Juls ( 0 )
Maemuki ( 3 ) - crypto - Infinis - Pads
Pads ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 0 )
Psychologic ( 0 )
RayFrost ( 0 )
RedCoyote ( 0 )
roflcopter ( 0 )
sigma ( 0 )
Sotty7 ( 0 )
SpyreX ( 1 ) - Budja
Vi ( 0 )
Unvote ( 8 ) - Idiotking - Juls - Psychologic - Maemuki - CSL - Sotty7 - Energetic Penguin - charter
Total Votes ( 24 )

With 24 alive, 13 still needed to reach a majority.
Deadline is at December 1st, 11am EST

Page 17... idiotking rolefishes, energetic penguin points it out
spyrex agrees with crypto (which I can't see) but point about pads is good
Hoopla 417, analysis of idiot king... I don't care about tentative language I do that sometimes. The excuses are notable though.
Hito says he suspects penguin
hiphop421 - Suspects maemuki (sin#1) and then only Foses her (sin#2)
idiotking says he's a wordy person... wtf... I've hardly seen anything from him this game

Page 18...idiotking refuses to cast a vote

A great deal of the town's information was concerned with Confid, and he wound up being a vanilla townie. Do you really think there's any useful information on D1, other than that there's a daykill role somewhere?

^^Is horrible.

Page 19
Pads reappears calls Vi and Maemuki scum (lead balloon)
Imaginality's reads are all over the place

As you can see, there are a lot of things I am suspicious of, notably maemuki=town resistance. Because the scumreads came out of nowhere based on "gut" and only found reasons later. That does not sound legit to me.

I dislike idiotking very much. One reason is how he doesn't want to look at the confid wagon. The other big thing is I think that the plurality voting thing allows scum to push lynches without voting... or get lynches without voting the lynch candidate. We should be watching for players who don't want to vote or who push lynches while voting others.

vote idiotking

[charter]

298, Pops is a third scum. If I was a daycop this game... His post comes back to OMGUS on me, then accuse me of "sprinkler scumhunting" on page five or whatever. Also claims to be suspicious of the Crypto/Confid pairing but does nothing about it.

I labelled my post with the letters "OMGUS" sarcastically. OMGUS is an emotional effect that causes people to want to return votes, which, as a mafia vet, i believe i have under control. My vote on you had reasons and I explained them, it's not mere OMGUS.

The next clause of that sentence is you parroting what I said. Explain why I'm scummy. At the very least, explain how I'm wrong.

Oh, it's bad that I thought OMGUS was the best reason you had then. Your sprinkler scumhunting accusation is pretty terrible, not scummy either. The rest of this is wrong too. I'm not parroting what you said, it sounds like you're just trying to sound like you've got good accusations.

Hoopla still going on about crypto is pretty weird, since Crypto was Confid's buddy.

Idiotking not voting in 17 pages, and then coming back with a bad excuse for it is, in my opinion, a capitol crime which should carry a lynch, buuuuttt...

Ray's mindless arguing back and forth with Idiotking makes Idiotking look better and Ray worse. Idiotking's points were all pretty good, but Ray tries to discredit them without actually considering how good they are.

Oh dear, what a pickle. Idiotking's 'always replacing out' business.

I'm going to

vote Pops

because he is scum. I actually find Ray to be scummier than Idiotking, though both are being exceedingly useless. I'll get some good 'why everyone should vote Pops' reasoning in a bit.

Didn't really have any revelations from anyone else since my last post.

[Idiotking]

1) Replacements are hard enough to find as it, without people leaving for role related reasons.
2) If you ever replace out in the future for genuine reasons it could incriminate your replacement, and cause wifom guess games about why you left which detracts from scumhunting.
3) You learn from your mistakes. You're never going to improve if you don't play the game.

You have no excuses for pussying out and making the game less fun for people.

I'm not trying to give excuses, just my reasons. I know I'm in the wrong here.

Agreed on all points. Idiotking, replacing out of a game for those reasons is unethical. I'm

hoping

you just didn't understand what is and isn't a good reason to replace out of the game, and are usually an ethical person.

I figured that giving the scumteam a better chance for survival was ethical enough. I don't try and intentionally screw games up.

IK can you point to any completed games you replaced out as scum?

I'll try to find some. I don't keep track of them.

[Maemuki]

@ Infinis, not a suitable answer - I understand crypto's case (even if it is hypocritical and he never listens to me, but hey), but why are you supporting it? You have 1 post to do it. GO.

@ imaginality, same as above. But worse. You're just copying the majority. 1 post to explain why, GO. Gut is not enough of a reason when we have 20 pages.

@ crypto, you shouldn't lynch me because I'm trying to be useful. I answered my own question. Now, are you going to give me a real case or are you going to throw more hypocrisy? (You never answered to my questions either, you know?)

@ hiphop. I believe I have. But let me explain. The wagon is informative - but L-7 was enough on my eyes. Problem solved. What do you think about imaginality?

@ 353, and I'm not the one with most votes at all right now. No, no, no way. If you suspect Vi as well, why to vote for me just because I have more votes?

@ 463, hey!

@ 471, you know, I agree with crypto for once. I assume he is just jumping on the most popular bandwagon/s. I'm waiting for his post.

This seems to me like scum fishing for a power role.

Why do you think so?

More when I have time.

(And, by the way, Pads, I believe I explained that I don't think that the OMGUS was that scummy, considering the number of people voting him. If I didn't, I meant to.)

[Idiotking]

As it is, Ray really did seem to want to pressure me based on Hoopla's case and nothing else. His "reasoning" during my argument with him was faulty, given that he didn't have a foundation for anything he was saying.

1. your reason to not move your vote at all is just really scummy ("I hate spiderman")

2. the excuse you give of "not using your vote willy-nilly" kinda fails when it's page 18, past the RVS, and there is plenty of information to give at least ONE vote change.

3. what hoopla said, cuz hoopla is awesome.

1 is clearly bogus. I think he was just trying to come up with a better reason than "Oh, Hoopla's right".

2 is a restatement of what Hoopla had already said.

3 is... pathetic, really. It really is just saying "Oh, Hoopla's right".

And then he goes on an tries to argue these points and fails miserably because they aren't his. Which bothers me.

[Sotty7]

I'm seeing my name in a lot of 'scum read' type posts but not very many actual points. Let me know if I'm missing anything and I'll address it.

Happy with my vote on ConfidAnon at the moment -- still getting a scummy vibe from him. I'm interested to see how he'll defend himself from this wagon.

Don't these two sentiments conflict? You ask people who have scum reads on you to post points against you, then you go on to say you have a scum read on Confid?

Vi post 349:
He is my number two at this point. His whole over reaction to his own vote is scummy to me in that he wanted a seemingly quick end to RVS. As scum I find myself pushing a some what quick end to RVS so I can get on with my fake scum hunting. I have also just completed a game on another board where the scum also made a similar ploy to what Sigma is doing. “Why is no one talking about my non random vote in the RVS stage[/pout]”

Also, seeing as I was so brutally slain I your game I have changed my avatar.

Infinis post 354
What about confid's 240 did you like?

What about crypto's case are the strongest parts to you? Any parts you disagree with with? Anything you want to add to the case?

Mae post 360
What makes you think he “completely dropped” the sigma case?

'For the things already brought up' is my trigger phrase.

vote: Energetic Penguin

. I'll go dig up more of his stuff in a bit but honestly I think he kind of makes the case against himself here. I doubt this will get a bandwagon going (early vote only as strong as it's justification and all that) but this is more of a meta-crusade to end 'for the things already brought up.'

Fair enough, I also hate “for things already brought up” reason too, but CSL also played this card earlier in the day here:

ConfidAnon seems like a good lynch target, so I'm going to

Vote: ConfidAnon

Why, or is it just to go with the flow?

Reasons already stated by other users

Comments/Questions/Complaints/Alerts of aliens?

AN ALIEN (named question) IS RIGHT ABOVE YOU!

Lol

Why did you not comment on this?

hip hop 421
Fair enough

Hoopla's post 442 does make me want to vote IK, what with the demonstration that IK isn't careful with his votes as he claimed to be.

It's noted that Vi has jumped on all the good going bandwagons so far. Far enough she started the Spy one pretty much but she has followed that up with a vote for Confid and now EP. That's a blip on my scumdar for sure, Vi is normally not one to just go with the flow like that. I was feeling Vitown but I am going to have to have another look here.

I'm interested in why Pops is scum to charter, it looks a little like OMGUS to me at this point.

Vote: Sigma

[popsofctown]

A little bit. But probably more parts confirmation bias.

[popsofctown]

Charter, the first paragraph of 476 is incomprehensible to me. No like "lol you're so wrong it doesn't make sense", but rather I can't figure out what you are saying. Restatement?


Sotty's interpretation of Sigma's early gambit seems diametrically opposed to mine, it makes sense enough to worry me... I put him at neutral, I think there's explanations for RVS gambits going both ways.

[popsofctown]

EBWOP: "not like...", not "no like...."

[sigma]

I'm seeing my name in a lot of 'scum read' type posts but not very many actual points. Let me know if I'm missing anything and I'll address it.

Happy with my vote on ConfidAnon at the moment -- still getting a scummy vibe from him. I'm interested to see how he'll defend himself from this wagon.

Don't these two sentiments conflict? You ask people who have scum reads on you to post points against you, then you go on to say you have a scum read on Confid?

I guess this depends on how you define 'scum read' -- this phrase is sometimes used to define having qualitative reasons to think someone is scum. Example: I see scum tells from X, but my gut says that Y is scum despite less scum tells, so I have a scum read on Y. In my quote, this is the sense I'm referring to. I had a gut read on ConfidAnon when I voted him "scummy vibe," and also cited a scum-tell "early bandwagon votes for 'defensiveness.'" Gut reads can't really be defended against logically, while citing something as a scum-tell can. I'm seeing a fair amount of 'gut reads' against me (see RCs 'you don't feel genuine' comments) and not much in the way of actual scum-tells. That's the difference between my attack on ConfidAnon and my comment above.

He is my number two at this point. His whole over reaction to his own vote is scummy to me in that he wanted a seemingly quick end to RVS. As scum I find myself pushing a some what quick end to RVS so I can get on with my fake scum hunting. I have also just completed a game on another board where the scum also made a similar ploy to what Sigma is doing. “Why is no one talking about my non random vote in the RVS stage[/pout]”

This feels like a 'too town' attack to me. You're correct that I was trying to end the RVS quickly. Ending the RVS quickly is good for town, in my book. Do you agree?

I guess your attack on me is more of a 'trying too hard to be town' type thing, but I feel like it's based way too much on what others do as scum. Figure out if it makes sense based on the context of this game, not other games that I've never read or heard of.

Why are you voting me if I'm your number two candidate? Who's your number one and why aren't you voting for them?

[roflcopter]

waiting for infinis

idiotking wagon is pretty good

i don't like the fact that vi is slowly tiptoeing away from his professed town read on maemuki as more and more people get tricked into thinking she might be scum.

pops, what do you think of spyrex's vote?

[SpyreX]

MORE catchup, ffs:

@SpyreX: Your posts. They're white noise. You say "but it's early". I say "I don't care", partly because my posts are NOT white noise and neither are a handful of others'. You say "you can't find scum on page 5". I say "lol why not". You say "I don't know who to stick with between ConfidAnon and the people on your wagon". I say "gee I wonder why, considering ConfidAnon is the more likely one to be scum". You say "I dare you to lynch me and see what happens". I say "I think you're bluffing and I'll take you up on the offer, but I can't lynch you by myself".

1.) Illustrate my "white noise" not playing the game posts complete with post numbers.
2.) If I am SCUM FOUND and, as you have said this isn't a case based on meta, and you had it nailed down by page 5 go ahead and show what/how.
3.) Confid was on my wagon. And was one of the three people I specifically called out for it. The fact that I find Budja's business worse is not a function of anything with Confid's play.
4.) I want this post to be remembered. Dayvig, we be tight, right. Let it be known. Like I'd bluff about this.

----

Crypto 341 AGAIN I like the theory even if I still disagree with the results.

IK 361 and Pads previous posts thus mentioned could make babies that would produce enough fences for everyone in the multiverse.

EP is going to be a VI. Calling this now. Emphasis on the V.

Hoopla has turned on the awesome gears.

@RC: 441 - I'm not seeing scum motivation for sigma's early move. I would have loved to explore that MORE but the world kinda collapsed so.

IK saying he replaces out every time as scum may be one of the most :headdesk: statements I've ever seen. However, the risk-reward suggests that this is a town move.

Pads 454 actually gives a stance on me but good lord is it qualified.

[Sotty7]

He is my number two at this point. His whole over reaction to his own vote is scummy to me in that he wanted a seemingly quick end to RVS. As scum I find myself pushing a some what quick end to RVS so I can get on with my fake scum hunting. I have also just completed a game on another board where the scum also made a similar ploy to what Sigma is doing. “Why is no one talking about my non random vote in the RVS stage[/pout]”

This feels like a 'too town' attack to me. You're correct that I was trying to end the RVS quickly. Ending the RVS quickly is good for town, in my book. Do you agree?

How is this a too townie attack? I have no issues with the RVS stage unless it goes on for an unnaturally long amount of time. Why is ending the RVS quickly good for the town?

I guess your attack on me is more of a 'trying too hard to be town' type thing, but I feel like it's based way too much on what others do as scum. Figure out if it makes sense based on the context of this game, not other games that I've never read or heard of.

No, I clearly said that trying to end the RVS early in my experience is a scum tell. Why are you forcing your beliefs that it is not one, onto me? I am not accusing you of trying to hard to be town, I am accusing you of being scum. Perhaps if you can better explain

why

ending RVS is so townie to you I might understand, but as of right now I don't like how you are trying to frame my attack.

Why are you voting me if I'm your number two candidate? Who's your number one and why aren't you voting for them?

Because he is dead. Confid was my number one, which is where my vote was when Vi asked. I was replying to the question as I read, I should have made that clearer.

[RedCoyote]

although I agree that analyzing ConfidAnon wagon would be a good thing, I don't like you laying out the groundwork for this analysis and not putting a foot forth in any direction at all.

How do you figure? I'm impatiently waiting people to subscribe to my "CSL is the best D1 lynch we could ask for" theme. I've made it in no way unclear that sigma holds a welcome place amongst my scum predictions for the time being. crypto is not far behind, although I'm liking his latest, more collected exchanges.

In addition to all of that, I am not as skeptical of the EP wagon as I was to the Confid wagon, although, for the life of me, I have no idea why EP is more of vote magnet then half the other people on the Confid wagon.

I give you props for at least giving my idea the time of day though, pops.

---

The lucky winner of a shiny new vote:

Vote: EnergeticPenguin

But you didn't refer to EP at all in your long-anticipated opening game post, imaginality. Do you expect us to take your reasons for granted?

Vi and Mae seem to point out similar issues with this post's over-broadness as well.

---

And I don't see how it's so scummy that I didn't vote for someone in my response post. After all, if I had a reason for not voting up to that point, that's hardly going to change just because e_k pointed it out!

This is a fair point; I didn't look at it that way. Regardless, I'm still not buying you're "playstyle" argument as to your lack of a vote. Players have used this argument against Idiotking, and I hope they intend to use it against you as well.

Day 1 in a game with 25 players, and you're preaching caution when using your vote? I just don't understand that philosophy, even on a principled level.

---

Gut reads can't really be defended against logically, while citing something as a scum-tell can. I'm seeing a fair amount of 'gut reads' against me (see RCs 'you don't feel genuine' comments) and not much in the way of actual scum-tells.

I don't mean to keep bringing this up, but I keep getting the impression that you are glossing over the real issue.

So, was it "wagon because I don't know" or "lol, reactions"?

both, really. reactions get the game going, and wagon because I don't know is a decent strategy, IMO.

Maybe you can justify this, but I cannot. It seems awkward, contrived, excusatory... whatever adjective you want to use. It doesn't sound townie.

[SpyreX]

Weighing in at a 7 posts with less words than our post limit is I give you the NUMBER. ONE. CHAMPION.

Budja, come on down!

Yes, and good.
I dislike that method.

Spyrex's play seems unusually passive (especially for him)

.

I agree with charter on EP, hitogoroshi.

RF looks like he is being silly but not scummy.

unvote, vote: Spyrex for the above and to get on the bandwagon.

I don't need pages of posts to see that your acting differently SpyreX.

Being very passive is a scumtell anyway. Random sillyness is fine to a limit, but your posts have shown no real opinions/suspicion/anything.

The fact that this is far removed from your normal play (as I have seen it) is a bonus.

Also early bandwagons are good .

I didn't really notice ConfidAnon until he was pointed out. His comment of Spyrex being too defensive was bad. He comes of as very passive/going with the flow. Moderatly scummy.

I can't say Spyrex has done much to change my opinion of him. Dislike early claim, I'm assuming that the martyr claim is not a joke.

crypto's push on Maemuki seems silly. There are better wagons.

CSL is a bit scummy. A bit iffy here as it seems to be his meta. But I do really dislike his 203.

I feel no need to shift my vote.

So, I'm the numero uno because of meta AND the fact that bandwagons are good.

Which then is backed up by the quote 2 statement that

is wrong

is delectable parroting AND well we better reinforce that bandwagons are good (TM).

Then holding on because apparently meta is still meta and I must STILL be being passive / have no opinions...and adding in an early claim (which wasn't).

Pro tips on looking soo deeply for claims though. Hmmm, its a mystery. (Yea, you'll notice one whole post is bolded because well that all ties into the world of the UNKNOWN)

[sigma]

No, I clearly said that trying to end the RVS early in my experience is a scum tell. Why are you forcing your beliefs that it is not one, onto me? I am not accusing you of trying to hard to be town, I am accusing you of being scum. Perhaps if you can better explain why ending RVS is so townie to you I might understand, but as of right now I don't like how you are trying to frame my attack.

In my opinion, the RVS is useless for finding scum other than the fact that it initiates the game, and I don't think it even does a good job of that sometimes. The quicker it ends, the earlier we have actual material (bandwagons, strategy, theory, etc.) to scumhunt with, and the more likely town is to win. I've been anti-RVS as town and scum, so I don't think I score any townie points for being anti-RVS, necessarily. It could even be a minor scum tell. But is anti-RVS is such a strong scum-tell that it outweighs bandwagoning? active lurking? lack of scum-hunting? That's kind of a ridiculous statement, yet I haven't seen you bring up any other points against me. Despite that I'm thinking there must be additional factors in your case against me, Sotty, because it's frankly not credible otherwise.

Maybe you can justify this, but I cannot. It seems awkward, contrived, excusatory... whatever adjective you want to use. It doesn't sound townie.

I'm not sure I see the problem, RC. Yes, I was looking for reactions/discussion when I explained my vote, as I thought it was sufficently unusual that I would get questions (along with a vote, perhaps, but that wasn't the goal). That didn't seem to be true, so I went into it further and tried to generate discussion that way (which I think succeeded.) It's also true that I wasn't arguing for the sake of arguing, but that my voting strategy would make town marginally more likely to succeed in their objective. Does that make sense?

[crypto]

@ crypto, you shouldn't lynch me because I'm trying to be useful.

That's an unfathomably poor excuse not to lynch someone scummy. Even then, your play has been remarkably useless since square one. You can

I answered my own question. Now, are you going to give me a real case or are you going to throw more hypocrisy? (You never answered to my questions either, you know?)

I don't know why I'm being hypocritical.

I gave you a real case. Before I did, though, I explored your reactions to unsupported claims. Those reactions were not good. Speaking of hypocrisy, using SpyreX's defensiveness as a scum tell of any magnitude and then spewing vitriol at my solo case against you is rather telling, isn't it?

I don't care for Elvis's case against me. I exposed her "Rejecting town reads is scummy" argument for the bullshit it was, and her argument that my initial gut feeling statement contradicts my logical argument against you—and that it makes me scummy—is also a load of crap. By refusing to give a reason, I wrung as much reaction juice out of you as possible, but that's beside the point, the point being her gut/logic argument hinges on a fundamental misunderstanding (or misrepresentation) of intuition, as well as of what may and may not constitute valid scum hunting.

I agree that Budja is scummy.

[elvis_knits]

Crypto, I don't know what your examples were supposed to prove to me.

One had spyrex defending a townie because he wanted that townie in endgame because they were so clueless they would be a good lynch. So yes I see your point that scum sometimes defend a townie. But I don't think that's what's happening here, right? Or are you saying it is?

Another example had people not buying your case on a scum, and calling that scum town. But I don't see how that applies either since people called maemuki town before you put together your case on her.

The third example had cults and millers and all kinds of crazy stuff that you can't compare.

SO...

My point is this cryto:

People said they thought Mae was town.

You responded with saying mae is scum, but you had no reason other than gut.

You found your reasons later.

I am telling you that it is scummy to automatically reject a townread from other people when you have no reason for doing so. I cannot know what your gut feelings were or if they existed at all. All I know is that later, after you had a chance to make them up, you found reasons. But your initial reaction had no reasons.

[CSL]

And with that, I need to re-read.

[charter]

Charter, the first paragraph of 476 is incomprehensible to me. No like "lol you're so wrong it doesn't make sense", but rather I can't figure out what you are saying. Restatement

I'm saying that your joke accusation of OMGUS was the best one you've leveled against me, which is why I originally thought it was serious.

This was the rest of why you voted for me:

The sprinkler system "scumhunting" looks pretty bad to me. You're posting things that have happened, not even in reason form, and then indicating suspicion towards several people for insubstantial reasons. It looks like scum that wants someone else to follow it up, wants several different angles to go to get a mislynch, and overall wants more bodies on the floor. I'm pretty surprised no one else is upset by this.

This was in response to my first post, and already Pops has accused me of faking scumhunting. Please explain how that works.
And yeah, the things I pointed out there are probably insubstantial in the long run, but at that point, that was all I had to go on, so I point it out instead of just an empty post.
Please explain how I "want someone else to follow up" on my accusations, and how you determined that off of my first post.

Other than a bunch of weak votes from you, I find nearly all of your posts to be reactionary to what other players are saying or doing.

Rofl, why infinis? What do you think about Pops?
Spyrex, what is the point of post 489? What do you think about Pops?

[SpyreX]

Because I think budja is scum and would thusly like him to be lynched?

Pops is ehhh.

[crypto]

Elvis:

I did not find my reasons later. I think I had a gut scum read on Mae somewhere between Roflcopter's read and her attack on CSL. Mae's vacillation over SpyreX reinforced it with a concrete "logical" reason. I assure you I didn't just shit out that reason

after

I vote for Mae. As much as I'd like to hang my vote on intuition,

That still has nothing to do with the fact that you don't know what intuition is. Your case is shitty in and of itself and even shittier bearing in mind that it's built on a misconception that does not even have anything to do with the game of Mafia. Learn what intuition is before you use a transfer from gut to logic as a scum tell.

That aside: In MD, plenty of players talk about how they start out with a gut feeling and build a logical case around it. All. The. Time. I have a hard time believing you are so oblivious that you would make a case against me using the same

Lose the idiocy. Accusing me of rejecting a town read and using that to paint me as scummy is singularly the worst argument for someone's lynch I have seen in this game, as far as I can remember. For the thousandth time, you're abusing timeframes and using my V/LA against me. Smarten up or spew your stubbornly vacuous accusations at someone else.

But I don't think that's what's happening here, right? Or are you saying it is?

I'm saying there's abundant evidence that the town should not blindly follow a couple of players' town reads. The players could be right or wrong, town or scum; I don't care. It shouldn't happen. Using my contrary read on Maemuki as a scum tell against me is so absurd I'm having a hard time coming to terms with you, as a townie, being so dumb as to really believe as much.

[SpyreX]

I did what now? Did I...say that?

[crypto]

No, I'm retarded; Elvis did.

[elvis_knits]

Crypto,

I don't think that we should blindly follow anyone's town reads. What I do think is that you should not reject townreads for no reason.

And the fact that you voted mae before you knew what your reason was... supports my suspicion that you did not have a reason.

Look, I understand gut reads. I have them to. But they are unprovable. It's SO easy to just vote anyone you want and give "gut" as your reason. Yeah, it could be gut, and it could also be that you're scum using gut as an excuse. Your assurances really do jack shit for me, since as scum, you would, you know... lie. The way things went down with mae make me doubt it was really "gut." Why didn't you say anything about mae before that? It's awfully coincidental.