Mafia 105 - Caught in the Crossfire (Game Over)

[CSL]

Vote Count, Day 1

hiphop ( 0 )
Budja ( 1 ) SpyreX
charter ( 1 ) popsofctown
ConfidAnon ( 5 ) - sigma - CSL - roflcopter - elvis_knits - Pads
crypto ( 0 )
CSL ( 0 )
elvis_knits ( 0 )
Energetic Penguin ( 0 )
hitogoroshi ( 0 )
Hoopla ( 1 ) - Energetic Penguin
Idiotking ( 0 )
imaginality ( 0 )
Infinis ( 0 )
Juls ( 0 )
Maemuki ( 1 ) - crypto
Pads ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 1 ) - charter
Psychologic ( 0 )
RayFrost ( 0 )
RedCoyote ( 0 )
roflcopter ( 1 ) hitogoroshi
sigma ( 3 ) Sotty7 - infinis - RedCoyote
Sotty7 ( 0 )
SpyreX ( 6 ) - Vi - RayFrost - Budja - hiphop - Hoopla - ConfidAnon
Vi ( 0 )
Unvote ( 5 ) - Idiotking - Juls - imaginality - Psychologic Maemuki

With 25 alive, 13 needed to reach a majority.
Deadline is at December 1st, 11am EST

Wow, you guys are active...

@ Mod: I don't see Maemuki on "Unvote". Also, the number voting roflcopter is incorrect. Please change that?

That read I promised is coming, but I have to wait about 10 minutes, as mom is "breathing down my neck" as we speak...

[Hoopla]

Are we wagoning ConfidAnon now? Okay, it looks better than the SpyreX one - sorry Vi.

Unvote, Vote: ConfidAnon

[Hoopla]

Wow, I wish I had another vote to put on crypto. So much BAD POSTING on page 11; pithy one-liners, waiting for people to ask him questions about his votes, and when they do it's merely a 'hunch'. This goes along with his answering questions with questions and being generally useless and a waste of space.

My

hunch is that crypto is scum.

[CSL]

@ Hoopla: That avatar isn't nearly as creepy as the last one... -shudder-

[Hoopla]

Why?

A hunch?

What activated that hunch?

Why are you so eager to fend me off?

What if I refused to tell you what "activated" it?

Because I think you're scum. Thinking you're scum ≠ wanting to lynch you.

Okay, screw bandwagons. This is so much better.

Unvote, vote: crypto

[CSL]

Wow, now we have two people to slam.

Here comes the read!

[CSL]

Woah. Major scumpoints there.

Votes imaginality during RVS, then attacks me for making a townish statement, while looking scummy. Sure he changes his vote for SpyreX, but that vote change was the only thing even remotely townish that I have seen.

[RedCoyote]

500 words

(Just want to make sure I keep my post under 500 words. )

sigma, 87/budja, 89: I've been thinking it over, and I don't see anything particularly valid about sigma calling attention to himself as scum, but I do accept Spyrex's more poignant criticism of sigma's in that I think he gave contradictory reasons for responding so early.

Hoopla, 91: You didn't seem to kick the tires much, are you comforable with the wagon?

Hoopla, 136: I agree. Happy Birthday, btw. My birthday wishes should mean more when they eat at my word count.

Hiphop, 138: You vote CSL for a stated reason (lurking), but then unvote him and vote Spyrex without one? Inconsistent?

Budja, 146: I do agree that Spyrex seem uncharacteristically preoccupied with himself, and I like this post in general.

CSL, 171 & 173: Why the hostility? Why not just respond to Mae's valid criticism. You essentially ignored everything else happening in the game aside from someone who brought up your name. Additionally, you seem dodgy. Mae asks you specifically about Spyrex, and you say that you don't support early wagons. To analogize: I ask if you like apples, you answer that eating fruit for breakfast isn't good.

Vi, 204: If it looks like I am focusing on CSL, it's only because of things like this that Vi picked up on. Almost immediately after this post CSL throws momentum behind the ConfidAnon bandwagon out of nowhere.

rofl, 232: Then let's pick one and be done with it, yeah?

CSL, 241: Do townies make posts like these?

crypto, 248:
>Refer to 6 different players, explain your reads on 5 of them
>Vote the one you don't talk about at all
>Go back and forth in an exchange with that player while essentially refusing to explain your vote
>Call them scum that you don't want to lynch yet, but you have no problem with keeping your vote on them
>Get extremely hostile against people who, coincidentally, are all suspicious of you
>Finally get around to posting your reasons in an unsummarized post that tries to show nearly every Mae post in isolation as scummy

[RedCoyote]

There are too many players to do an accurate Scumscale, so I'm just going to touch on a few in no particular order (nothing significant about 4, just worked out that way).

Top 4 scum

:
crypto - Being secretive and angry does not necessarily make one town. Your back and forth with Mae was unwarranted and unnecessary, as was you calling out everyone who coincidentally suspected you.
hiphop - Inconsistent voting pattern.
sigma - Having trouble finding your motivation in this game, but I haven't seen it as genuine so far.
CSL - Meta or no meta, I don't care for your play. You post too often, you're too dodgy, and your blantant attempts at calling attention toward others when you get mentioned is unreadable at best, scummy at worst.

Top 4 town

:
Spyrex - I like your playstyle in general, so there's a slight bias there. Although I think the meta argument has some merit, I don't rely too much on meta. I also think your wagon was populated too quickly.
Hoopla - Your most recent posts tell me you are show independent qualities, and I like your post 163.
Budja - I like your observations; I like post 146.
Maemuki - Despite posting much too frequently, seemingly everytime I noticed something fishy, sure enough, Mae had a post not long afterwards calling it out.

Top 4 who are at risk of falling behind

:
Idiotking
Psychologic
Energetic Penguin
imaginality

Biggest misconception as scum

: ConfidAnon - I don't really see it. Maybe he's been a bit too self-aware, but the size of his wagon seems unwarranted.

Biggest misconception as town

: CSL - "CSL has a scummy meta, so leave him alone" Whatever meta CSL has is besides the point, and he would make a good D1 lynch from where I stand.

In reality, that took longer than it looks. Seriously, let's try to cut back on the back and forth posting. I personally think it cuts against the spirit of the < 500 words rule. When we start to lose players, it probably won't be as big of a deal, but there is no reason to make more than 3 posts in one sitting (Mae, CSL, crypto, Vi, RF, etc.)

Both of my posts together come to ~750, but until/unless the Mod has something to say about muliple posting (e.g. X words a day), I feel obliged to "make up" for lost time.

tl;dr: Everyone

unvote

and

vote: CSL

.

[elvis_knits]

Crypto comes up with gems like this:

Because I think you're scum. Thinking you're scum ≠ wanting to lynch you.

I dislike that statement for two reasons.
1) You should want to lynch people you think are scum.
2) I think you explained it later as meaning that you wanted to lynch but not right away. Everyone knows that wanting to lynch a guy doesn't mean you want to lynch a guy RIGHT NOW, so saying that's what you meant... doesn't really make sense to me. Why even say that? What was the point?

Crypto, your whole problem with maemuki seems manufactured and ridiculous.

This is what happened: rofl called maemuki town, then some people got all up in Maemuki's face. (IIRC, you and confidanon).

In my experience, people who resist accepting players as town... are scum themselves. This is because scum don't want to narrow the lynch pool. NOW, it is one thing if you had actual reasons for thinking maemuki was scum. That I would be fine with, and this reasoning wouldn't apply. But you just said you had a gut feeling that maemuki was scum. I don't know if you actually had a gut feeling or if you just wanted maemuki back in the lynch pool. And the fact that you had this gut feeling AFTER maemuki was called town seems very odd and coincidental to me. And you've recently done an ISO of maemuki to try to make up reasons that she is scum. So basically you decided she was scum before you looked for the reasons. If that is not a load of BS, I don't know what is.

[elvis_knits]

RC, I don't think you're supposed to do the multi-post in order to get over 500...

4. Do not try and get around my limit by posting twice or by just waiting for someone else to post and then continuing your own post. Spirit of the rule, not letter.

[Hoopla]

It's hard being 10 pages back, trying to use less than 500 words to catch up. Unless the the back and forth posting between a few people slows, it's tough to realistically keep that restriction.

[elvis_knits]

I agree, I had to try to do it last night.

[ConfidAnon]

Sorry for the lack of content these past couple of days, will give you more soon (probably later today, if not then, Monday night.)

[Vi]

When we start to lose players, it probably won't be as big of a deal, but there is no reason to make more than 3 posts in one sitting (Mae, CSL, crypto, Vi, RF, etc.)

You didn't happen to notice who stopped that string, did you?
Less lecturing, more tl;dring about scummy people.
Although I wouldn't want Energetic Penguin to fall behind; his early posts were not at all satisfying~

I would daykill Pads but I don't feel like it right now. This is partly because I think his post is leading in all kinds of bad directions, either unintentionally or otherwise.

@SpyreX: Your posts. They're white noise. You say "but it's early". I say "I don't care", partly because my posts are NOT white noise and neither are a handful of others'. You say "you can't find scum on page 5". I say "lol why not". You say "I don't know who to stick with between ConfidAnon and the people on your wagon". I say "gee I wonder why, considering ConfidAnon is the more likely one to be scum". You say "I dare you to lynch me and see what happens". I say "I think you're bluffing and I'll take you up on the offer, but I can't lynch you by myself".

SpyreX and ConfidAnon are still scum.
crypto is more likely Town who feels like pointlessly leading people on.
Infinis and Pads have one more post to redeem themselves.

roflcopter is having a party without me

Unvote: SpyreX
Vote: ConfidAnon

(L-8)

[zoraster]

I sat back after reading RC's post as well as Hoopla's. Personally, when I designed the 500 word rule, I did not anticipate the pace of this game. At the rate it's gone currently, day 1 alone will span 100 pages. I doubt this pace is sustainable, and it's somewhat helped by the fact it's a weekend, but it's still an astounding pace to maintain. A few comments:

1. I understand that trying to catch up in 500 words is hard. However, consider that if everyone started posting large catch up posts it would just make it harder for anyone to catch up.
2. Still, I have to believe that it's unfair that someone maintaining what otherwise would be considered "good" activity (i.e. posting every day after work, for example) would be unable to really make any sort of difference.
3. No matter what, double posting to get around the word limit is forbidden. The difference between your posts, RC, and others, is that theirs was conversation. I'm the mod and cannot comment on the quality of content of those conversations, but as a mod I don't have problems with questions and answers. You may decide differently as a player.

Conclusion: There needs to be some adjustment made to take into account of the abnormal posting rate that's going on right now.

My purpose was never to have the word count be overly onerous. I considered allowing more words per post if someone hadn't posted in a while, but I didn't like the implications that had for lurking. Therefore, my solution is simply to up the word count to 750. Don't ask for another expansion. If you're running out of space with 750, I suggest asking yourself what is truly important in a post. Please note that with this expansion, I'll likely be more strict about enforcement.

The new rule is as follows (starred rules have changes):

Article V: Word Limit

*1. All posts unless otherwise noted here should be kept under

750

words.
2. This INCLUDES quotes. I'll just stick any post I suspect into word and run word count.
3. It includes what I SEE, so if you make a link, it's just the text I see that I count.
3. I'm not aiming to be really anal about this rule, so if someone is over by 5 words once or twice, it's probably not a big deal. But don't test me, please.
4. Do not try and get around my limit by posting twice or by just waiting for someone else to post and then continuing your own post. Spirit of the rule, not letter.
5. Penalties for repeat and/or blatant offenses include: warning, role penalty, replacement, mod kill.
*6. New replacements may make one post shortly after replacing that exceeds 750 words. The post should be kept under

2000

words.
7. Any player at plurality within 24 hours of being lynched may post up to 1500 words per post.
*8. Any player coming off of an announced vacation leave where more than 300 posts were made in their absence will be allowed a post of 1500 words.

This rule is in effect immediately.

[crypto]

RedCoyote, I didn't summarize because I was already over the word limit. Like I said, that post was over 700 words when I finished it (according to OOo), and I didn't even have a conclusion typed. I had to trim down the PBPA itself just to get near the word limit.

But the point is that I don't like the progression of Maemuki's read on SpyreX in light of her overall play. I don't like how she rereads him, wanders off against CSL, then says she still doesn't see what's so scummy about SpyreX, and

then

, hours later, makes a paper-thin case against him.

In my experience, people who resist accepting players as town... are scum themselves.

In my experience, that's, um ... not how it works.

Mini 842. SpyreX insists that Benmage is town even though a number of other players, myself included, find Benmage scummy. SpyreX turns out to be scum, Benmage turns out to be town, and all but one of the players who have a scum read on Benmage also turn out to be town. SpyreX had been trying to keep Benmage from getting lynched early on because he wanted him alive later in the game or in LYLO, for an easy mis-lynch.

Newbie 805. I call Excedrin scum and push for his lynch on day 1. Pretty much everyone denies my case, many of them (IIRC) believing firmly that Excedrin is town. Excedrin survives day 1. The mafia roleblocker gets lynched. Day 2 we cook up a foolproof follow-the-cop plan. Rather than delay his inevitable defeat, the last mafioso commits suicide night 2. Of course, this story would be rather pedestrian if that last mafioso was not Excedrin.

Mini 827. On day 2 I'm pushing for CoCo's lynch. Goatrevolt insists that CoCo is town. We lynch CoCo. CoCo flips town (but his role is basically a jacked-up miller and it turns out his role PM literally tells him to be a nuisance to the town, so you can't entirely blame me/us for lynching him). Goatrevolt flips cult, recruited night 1.

I was town in all of those games. I'm not saying any of them are what's going on here, but I am saying that—and this is one of the many examples of mafia's similarity to real-world democracy—going against majority (i.e., the town's) or expert (i.e., Vi and Rofl's) opinion doesn't inherently make you the bad guy.

That, and it's frustrating that you're going off on me based on my case coming after Vi and Rofl's pronounced town read, because it would have been impossible for me to develop my Mae case beforehand. Not only was I V/LA, but the progression of Mae's Spyre-scum read climaxed well after the announcement that she was town.

I do not at all buy the bad memory excuse. Maemuki, you are misconstruing my case as being that you forgot. Stop. That's clearly not what it is. After you read Spyre's iso., you SAID you still didn't see what was so scummy about him. Then, later, you spontaneously converted with REALLY BAD reasoning—that he OMGUSed Budja (which he didn't, and even if he did OMGUS is not a good tell, especially so early in the game), and that something felt wrong about his resistance to a lynch. Townies resist lynches all the time. Townies have the right to do so. That's a horrible, scummy excuse for a wagon.

[Vi]

words

Conciseness is pro-Town.

crypto - I don't think your case on Maemuki is convincing, although I can understand where you're coming from. This is mostly because Maemuki didn't vote SpyreX or attempt to make a convincing case.
If anything, it would look worse if SpyreX flipped scum (which is a couple of shades of confusing on the consistency scale but I'll go with it).

[Sotty7]

Vi, if Spyrex is still likely scum to you why have you left his wagon for the smaller Confid one?

Hip hop, what was your reason for jumping on the Spy wagon?

Having re-read and looked a little at the games Vi provided I'm starting to see what that is all about and I agree. Spy does seem more passive in this game, for example when he only placed a vote after Hoopla pushed him to.

Mae is also feeling town to me but her activity is though the roof which goes against the Maetown I know. Time will tell if that means anything.

Seeing interesting connections between crypto/Confid, especially here

The crypto/maemuki issue is bizarre, but I understand where crypto is coming from.

I believe crypto asked for elaboration and I'm going to second that.

Unvote, Vote: ConfidAnon

Something is really off here. His jump on the Spy wagon was weak (both scum and townies are defensive) and I really want to know who else he suspects and why.

[Vi]

Vi, if Spyrex is still likely scum to you why have you left his wagon for the smaller Confid one?

It's growing, whereas the SpyreX wagon isn't. Again, I can't lynch SpyreX by myself.

Sotty7, who else is scum?

[Energetic Penguin]

Energetic Penguin for his FOS of Sigma and then vote for Hoopla.

My FoS and Vote weren't entirely serious.

I'm talking about the small gravity well you already seem to be forming with the crazy voters. Lets assume I actually DO DIAF today there done be some woosh goin on'

What does DIAF stand for?

You guys post waaay too much I dissappear for one day and there's 10+ pages I have to read.

[Sotty7]

Sotty7, who else is scum?

Right now I would say Sigma and Crypto. They are my strongest other reads at this point. Maybe CSL too, I can never figure him out.

[sigma]

I'm seeing my name in a lot of 'scum read' type posts but not very many actual points. Let me know if I'm missing anything and I'll address it.

Happy with my vote on ConfidAnon at the moment -- still getting a scummy vibe from him. I'm interested to see how he'll defend himself from this wagon.

I'm reading crypto and maemuki as two townies attacking each other. Both have shown enough independence in their games that them being scum doesn't fit at the moment.

I agree with vi that

conciseness is pro-town

. Don't fill up the thread with pages of the same argument -- it's more garbage for townies to sort through and makes it harder for them to do their job. Pretty much anyone who posted on pages 7-10 is guilty of this from what I can tell.

[Maemuki]

@ Sotty, I'm breaking my meta on this game. I'm starting to suspect that I have more posts on this game than on some of my completed games.

Oh for god's sakes crypto! I never said I suspected him.

Please see the world from my point of view for a few minutes.

I know that townies get frustraded if they're lynched. I just wanted to know the answer to my question is all.

But - I never said

I

suspected SpyreX. I made that post to understand the SpyreX wagon - not to actually post on it. My read on SpyreX, is, as I said, neutral. If that wasn't clear to you - *shrugs* I don't know.

In my experience, that's, um ... not how it works.

That doesn't mean it couldn't be the case here. Why do you think it is?

This is mostly because Maemuki didn't vote SpyreX or attempt to make a convincing case.

If I didn't vote him, would I really need to make a case?

pretty much anyone who posted on pages 7-10 is guilty of this from what I can tell.

Sorry!

@ crypto, everything's very pretty. But did you read the thread? What do you think about e_k's accusations against you? Instead of bringing up games where "something like this" supposedly happened, why aren't you defending yourself?

(Crypto, you're going to attack me for the above, aren't you?
.
.
.
You know what? Don't answer.)

[Vi]

But - I never said

I

suspected SpyreX. I made that post to understand the SpyreX wagon - not to actually post on it. My read on SpyreX, is, as I said, neutral. If that wasn't clear to you - *shrugs* I don't know.

In that one post, you asked SpyreX questions. Were you satisfied with his answers? How?

I'm starting to suspect that I have more posts on this game than on some of my completed games.

42 posts in this game; 43 in Forum Mafia (including postgame, which makes up for how you replaced in early D1).

@Sotty7: Could you quantify how scummy sigma is to you?
Also, change your avatar to Nazrin already

@E-Penguin: DIAF = Die In A Fire.
Now please* catch up.

* "Please" in this context means "ASAP".

The fluff in this post should in no way suggest that the serious stuff is not serious.