Mafia 105 - Caught in the Crossfire (Game Over)

[elvis_knits]

Hello!

[elvis_knits]

I'm more upset about this:

Sammy, the beloved Golden Retriever, has been killed Night 0

.

[elvis_knits]

Sigma is not the first person to use the "I'm voting for someone I don't know" reason. I have seen it before. It is not novel. It is not wild and crazy. Haven't you seen it before, Vi?

vote Vi

[elvis_knits]

HOLY CRAP... was that like 10 pages overnight... lol

This game is going to be fun!

Reading...

[elvis_knits]

Sigma is not the first person to use the "I'm voting for someone I don't know" reason. I have seen it before. It is not novel. It is not wild and crazy. Haven't you seen it before, Vi?

I've used it before. Of course, that's not why I voted sigma or why I pressured him. So I don't know why you voted me. (Bad puppy, no biscuit!)

I thought that's why you voted him because he was going on and on about it for paragraphs like he was being attacked...

Then I looked bakc and you're right... you said something about him needing a bandwagon because he's a significant threat if scum.

unvote Vi

Page 5... Rayfrost bets on himself or sigma to be the lynch...wut

Page 6... Why doesn't spyrex like early bandwagons? Heresy! (I feel like he was trying to joke around with the other jokers, but the other jokers were also scum hunting... well maybe not ray, but Vi and Hoopla seem to be scum hunting)

Page 7... brings two more scum:
Confidanon busses Spyrex (uses word "defensive")
CSL OMGUSUCKS, then TYPES IN ALL CAPS, then opposes spyrex wagon

Page 8... Sigma singles me out for no reason
Rofl192 - I agree

Page 9 ... people arguing over my Vi vote. I explain first part of this post.

Ack... dinner is ready must go eat... be back later

[elvis_knits]

Page 10 Confidanon pre-emtpively arguing against votes that *might* get cast against him
Spyrex sounds more analytical, analysis of his bandwagon sounds fair to me
Crypto kills rayfrost, unvotes confidanon, votes maemuki (Looks like three bad moves to me)

Page 11 Maemuki keeps asking crypto why he's voting her
Crypto comes up with gems like this:

Because I think you're scum. Thinking you're scum ≠ wanting to lynch you.

Conclusions:
Spyrex analysis of his bandwagon seems good. He didn't hate on everyone, which seems more like an attempt to find the scum on his wagon rather than just move people off. Seems more like a townie reaction.

My top scum picks:
Cofidanon
Sigma
crypto
CSL (although maybe it's his meta... never played with him before)

vote confidanon

I've basically disagreed with everything he's said, and his jump to spyrex wagon he gave reason as being "spyrex is being defensive" which is a scummy catch-all reason. You can say anyone is being defensive. And when they're being attacked they sort of have to defend themselves. So calling someone scum for being "defensive" is BS.

[elvis_knits]

Crypto comes up with gems like this:

Because I think you're scum. Thinking you're scum ≠ wanting to lynch you.

I dislike that statement for two reasons.
1) You should want to lynch people you think are scum.
2) I think you explained it later as meaning that you wanted to lynch but not right away. Everyone knows that wanting to lynch a guy doesn't mean you want to lynch a guy RIGHT NOW, so saying that's what you meant... doesn't really make sense to me. Why even say that? What was the point?

Crypto, your whole problem with maemuki seems manufactured and ridiculous.

This is what happened: rofl called maemuki town, then some people got all up in Maemuki's face. (IIRC, you and confidanon).

In my experience, people who resist accepting players as town... are scum themselves. This is because scum don't want to narrow the lynch pool. NOW, it is one thing if you had actual reasons for thinking maemuki was scum. That I would be fine with, and this reasoning wouldn't apply. But you just said you had a gut feeling that maemuki was scum. I don't know if you actually had a gut feeling or if you just wanted maemuki back in the lynch pool. And the fact that you had this gut feeling AFTER maemuki was called town seems very odd and coincidental to me. And you've recently done an ISO of maemuki to try to make up reasons that she is scum. So basically you decided she was scum before you looked for the reasons. If that is not a load of BS, I don't know what is.

[elvis_knits]

RC, I don't think you're supposed to do the multi-post in order to get over 500...

4. Do not try and get around my limit by posting twice or by just waiting for someone else to post and then continuing your own post. Spirit of the rule, not letter.

[elvis_knits]

I agree, I had to try to do it last night.

[elvis_knits]

Hitogorishi just unvoted his random vote on page 15 and failed to place a real vote.

Add him to the scum list.

[elvis_knits]

Who do you think is scummiest?

[elvis_knits]

355 was @ hito

[elvis_knits]

We just need 6 more on confidanon.

[elvis_knits]

I just made a post about confidanon and then realized he's dead.

[elvis_knits]

Vote Count, Day 1

hiphop ( 0 )
Budja ( 1 ) SpyreX
charter ( 0 )
crypto ( 0 )
CSL ( 1 ) - RedCoyote
elvis_knits ( 0 )
Energetic Penguin ( 5 ) hitogoroshi - popsofctown - hiphop - imaginality - Vi
hitogoroshi ( 0 )
Hoopla ( 0 )
Idiotking ( 4 ) RayFrost - Hoopla - sigma - elvis_knits
imaginality ( 0 )
Infinis ( 1 ) roflcopter
Juls ( 0 )
Maemuki ( 3 ) - crypto - Infinis - Pads
Pads ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 0 )
Psychologic ( 0 )
RayFrost ( 0 )
RedCoyote ( 0 )
roflcopter ( 0 )
sigma ( 0 )
Sotty7 ( 0 )
SpyreX ( 1 ) - Budja
Vi ( 0 )
Unvote ( 8 ) - Idiotking - Juls - Psychologic - Maemuki - CSL - Sotty7 - Energetic Penguin - charter
Total Votes ( 24 )

With 24 alive, 13 still needed to reach a majority.
Deadline is at December 1st, 11am EST

Page 17... idiotking rolefishes, energetic penguin points it out
spyrex agrees with crypto (which I can't see) but point about pads is good
Hoopla 417, analysis of idiot king... I don't care about tentative language I do that sometimes. The excuses are notable though.
Hito says he suspects penguin
hiphop421 - Suspects maemuki (sin#1) and then only Foses her (sin#2)
idiotking says he's a wordy person... wtf... I've hardly seen anything from him this game

Page 18...idiotking refuses to cast a vote

A great deal of the town's information was concerned with Confid, and he wound up being a vanilla townie. Do you really think there's any useful information on D1, other than that there's a daykill role somewhere?

^^Is horrible.

Page 19
Pads reappears calls Vi and Maemuki scum (lead balloon)
Imaginality's reads are all over the place

As you can see, there are a lot of things I am suspicious of, notably maemuki=town resistance. Because the scumreads came out of nowhere based on "gut" and only found reasons later. That does not sound legit to me.

I dislike idiotking very much. One reason is how he doesn't want to look at the confid wagon. The other big thing is I think that the plurality voting thing allows scum to push lynches without voting... or get lynches without voting the lynch candidate. We should be watching for players who don't want to vote or who push lynches while voting others.

vote idiotking

[elvis_knits]

Crypto, I don't know what your examples were supposed to prove to me.

One had spyrex defending a townie because he wanted that townie in endgame because they were so clueless they would be a good lynch. So yes I see your point that scum sometimes defend a townie. But I don't think that's what's happening here, right? Or are you saying it is?

Another example had people not buying your case on a scum, and calling that scum town. But I don't see how that applies either since people called maemuki town before you put together your case on her.

The third example had cults and millers and all kinds of crazy stuff that you can't compare.

SO...

My point is this cryto:

People said they thought Mae was town.

You responded with saying mae is scum, but you had no reason other than gut.

You found your reasons later.

I am telling you that it is scummy to automatically reject a townread from other people when you have no reason for doing so. I cannot know what your gut feelings were or if they existed at all. All I know is that later, after you had a chance to make them up, you found reasons. But your initial reaction had no reasons.

[elvis_knits]

Crypto,

I don't think that we should blindly follow anyone's town reads. What I do think is that you should not reject townreads for no reason.

And the fact that you voted mae before you knew what your reason was... supports my suspicion that you did not have a reason.

Look, I understand gut reads. I have them to. But they are unprovable. It's SO easy to just vote anyone you want and give "gut" as your reason. Yeah, it could be gut, and it could also be that you're scum using gut as an excuse. Your assurances really do jack shit for me, since as scum, you would, you know... lie. The way things went down with mae make me doubt it was really "gut." Why didn't you say anything about mae before that? It's awfully coincidental.

[elvis_knits]

I think there's more evidence to suggest I am right than suggest you are right.

My evidence is you never saying anything bad about mae before people called her town, AND that you voted her before knowing what your reasons were.

Your evidence is just your assurances... which add up to nothing.

[elvis_knits]

It wasn't a scheme. It was scum's most basic nature, to want to keep the lynch pool full of potential mislynches. You didn't even have to think about it to do it.

[elvis_knits]

Right now the only thing speaking in crypto's favor is a mild connection to confidanon (charter brought that up, it was something I forgot).

I really really don't like him doing scummy things and then being like "I did it to get a reaction!" "It's fun being a troll!"

That is not how you catch scum. You're supposed to say stuff you believe in, but maybe in an obnoxious way to get maximum reaction. Saying stuff you don't believe is what scum do.

[elvis_knits]

unvote; vote crypto

[elvis_knits]

There's no way anyone knows for sure how many scum teams there are. Crypto said it was a fact.

[elvis_knits]

There are two scum groups. (Stated as fact)

There are probably two scum groups. (Assumption).

[elvis_knits]

Hmmm, I actually forgot about the N0 kills including two factions, but the N0 kills also include cult deaths when the rules say there is no cult.

Maeby, the Cultist, has been killed Night 0.
Lindsey, the Cultist, has been killed Night 0.
Tobias, the Cult Leader, has been killed Night 0.

Article VII: Roles Possible:

1. Vanilla, Goon, Backup (Cop, Doc, Jail Keeper, Miller, Tracker, Vigil, Watcher, Roleblocker, Role Cop)

Bomb

, Bulletproof (both as town and scum role), Bus Driver, (Sane) Cop, (Insane) Cop,

Cult

, Doctor, Godfather, Jail Keeper,

Jester

, Lyncher, Mason (both town and scum), Miller, Redirector, Roleblocker, Role Cop (mafia only), Serial Killer, Survivor, Tracker, Traitor, Vigilante, Watcher, at maximum one Unique Undeclared Role. Keep in mind that all of these roles can be slightly altered from what you normally expect (while keeping their essential character).

[elvis_knits]

Okay, crypto is prob right there are two scum teams. I didn't pay that much attention to the flavor or think it might be literal, but I guess it's possible he did.

Back to Idiotking... his csl vote does not impress me

unvote; vote idiotking

[elvis_knits]

I didn't remember the N0 flavor... I don't see what is scummy about that.

[elvis_knits]

Why would my vote on CSL have to impress you, elvis_knits? Is this a popularity contest? Did I at least do well in the swimsuit portion? More importantly, do you or do you not agree that CSL has made less-than-useful posts thusfar?

You did awesome in swimsuit portion, however your interview was the stink.

Your vote had to impress me because you said you don't vote willy-nilly and it's your first vote of the game.

CSL doesn't really seem town to me, so in that sense I guess it's an okay vote. But there's like a hella other stuff going on more important than CSL, and you aren't very involved. Also you voted CSL and said "are you happy now, ray/hoopla?" like the vote was more to please them than because you actually thought he was scum.

Combined with my earlier dislike of how you said we can't learn anything from the confidwagon/kill. And you've really flip flipped a lot on crypto.

[elvis_knits]

if csl is scum, idiotking is an absolute lock to be his scumbuddy

I was thinking that given that he voted CSL under pressure and then when CSL wagon gets going he unvotes and says we shouldn't lynch CSL.

I find that CSL is a good choice for a lynch, given the fact that if saved until late-game, such useless people give scum an easy route to pressure/lynch.

So... why exactly aren't we going to wait for a replacement and then judge the replacement by his or her own merit? Shouldn't we at least give the replacement a chance?

I don't really think it would be fair to lynch CSL before his replacement arrives. I think that CSL was just overwhelmed by this game and couldn't handle it, just like Budja. If this is true, then he would have reacted the same regardless of his alignment.

[elvis_knits]

PREVIEW EDIT: Hats off for E_K to restating the obvious far after the point where we may've even considered that an original idea. Encore!

What else is new? +1.

Nobody else even mentioned it besides rofl... how was it an accepted idea?

I WAS thinking this and the fact that I was voting idiotking should tip you off to it.

[elvis_knits]

I never said I saw into the future. I was watching IK closely and voting him. Then I read the game this morning and saw the CSL meltdown and IK's reaction to it and came to that conclusion. I'm telling you that it is natural for me to come to that conclusion based on the fact I was voting IK. I cannot help it if other people came to that same conclusion during the night when I was sleeping.

Also didn't you just tell me you think IK is scum too? So how am I taking opportunistic advantage of IK? Wouldn't that mean IK is town? What are you saying? You can't argue that IK is scum and that I am scum taking advantage of poor IK for his position on csl. It can't be both.

[elvis_knits]

If he was voting to get people off his back would he really vote his scum-partner?

Yes. That's when scum vote their buddies... when under pressure. I didn't see it at the time, but came to that conclusion after csl meltdown.

[elvis_knits]

I don't see why you would care about IK becoming the victim the EK's awful agenda if you thought IK was scum.

[elvis_knits]

Based on the fact that I saw a connection between two scummy players? A connection that you agree with?

[elvis_knits]

Why does it ring false to you?

Why would IK and CSL being on different scum factions cause you to suspect me more?

Why would a town csl make you suspect me more? Do you think it's likely CSL is town? If so, why does that make you suspect me more?

[elvis_knits]

Vote Count, Day 2

hiphop ( 0 )
shotty to the body ( 0 )
charter ( 0 )
crypto ( 0 )
CSL ( 0 )
elvis_knits ( 1 ) - Vi
Energetic Penguin ( 0 )
hitogoroshi ( 0 )
Hoopla ( 0 )
Idiotking ( 0 )
imaginality ( 0 )
Infinis ( 0 )
EtherealCookie ( 0 )
Maemuki ( 0 )
Pads ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 0 )
Zakeri ( 0 )
RayFrost ( 0 )
RedCoyote ( 0 )
roflcopter ( 0 )
sigma ( 0 )
Sotty7 ( 0 )
SpyreX ( 0 )
Vi ( 0 )
Unvote ( 19 ) All others
Total Votes ( 20 )

With 20 alive, 11 needed to reach a majority.
Deadline is at December 12th, 10am EST

Pfft @ Vi

You can WIFOM until the cows come home, but the fact that I was on the scum list of a dead townie does not make me scum.

You already see how 2/3 of his reads flipped town. Not everyone on that list can be scum. Nobody is that good.

And even if you want to go down that road, you already have imaginality who had a good reason to kill crypto. So I don't know why you are dragging me into it.

I would rather look at the wagons... I like that it's day 2 and we already have two dead from wagons (I'm counting confid).

[elvis_knits]

ConfidAnon

( 10 ) - sigma -

CSL

- roflcopter - elvis_knits - Pads - Vi - Sotty7 - popsofctown - energetic penguin - charter

CSL

( 15 ) - RedCoyote - sigma - Pads - crypto - popsofctown - roflcopter - Infinis - shotty to the body - charter - hiphop - idiotking -

hoopla

- imaginality - Vi - Sotty7

People who were on both wagons:
Sigma
rofl
Pads
Vi
Sotty
pops
charter

A lot of these people have a playstyle that would make them on a lot of wagons. I would expect rofl, Vi, charter, to be on a lot of wagons, and seeing them on both does not surprise me. I think we have to look more at their reasoning and overall play to finish the read. Rofl and charter are playing exactly how I expect them to play, and I understand their reasoning. Vi I am not getting much reasoning from. She says her targets have not changed, but I remember her being all over the place. Also she is laying lots o crap on me.

Dead townie suspected you!

is crap.

I'm surprised to see sigma, and pads on both wagons. I don't know them very well, but they don't strike me as real wagoners. Especially since pads wasn't even around that much, if I remember correctly. I guess if anyone else has a better meta on them, I'd like to hear it, but they strike me as the most opportunistic on the wagons. If you don't post much but you're on both wagons, that's suspect. Pads seems to have better reasoning though so I favor sigma here.

Pops and sotty probably strike me as the most protown of the bunch. sotty especially I remember being well-thought out yesterday.

So if I was going to vote one of the people that was on both wagons I'd say it would be Vi, sigma or pads.

vote sigma

Preview edit:
Vi -- what are your reasons for suspecting me? And why can't you summarize them when you vote me? I don't remember you saying anything that was really well-founded.

[elvis_knits]

@Vi - your only point against me seems to be that I vote crypto. I saw him make an assumption that I thought only scum would know, and so I voted him. When I realized that he had legitimate reason to think that, I unvoted him.

@idiotking - when did I lurk? I've posted every day in this game, multiple times. Accusing me of lurking is BS. And accusing me of lurking during the confid situation.... what do you mean? I voted him. I've adressed the crypto stuff with Vi, and as for me voting "popular lynches"... I don't care. I don't even think that's entirely true, but if I think the top suspect is scummy, I am going to advance that lynch and line of questioning. That is how you learn something in this game, from pressuring people as a group, not by everyone spreading their votes out.

You're just voting me now and hoping I become the flavor of the day, and everyone will forget about how crappy your vote on CSL was.

[elvis_knits]

@Vi - your only point against me seems to be that I vote crypto.

Not true, but it's the only one you can try to defend.

Can we not do this whole "I know you are, but what am I?" dance? Your reasons are WIFOM BS, so don't go around saying "oh she can't defend against them!" There's literally nothing to defend against, but if you want me to break it down for you, I will...

Lynch preference is currently somewhere around this order:
*elvis_knits (weak presence throughout, chasing easy targets, covering her poorly-advised jump on the crypto wagon with

"I didn't read the N0 flavor"

, not getting an updated avatar of the puppy)

"weak presence throughout" -- No, I've been posting every day, multiple times

"chasing easy targets" -- No. My votes, in order: Vi, confidanon, idiotking, crypto, idiotking, sigma.

"covering her poorly-advised jump on the crypto wagon with

"I didn't read the N0 flavor"

" -- I already defended against this. I didn't think crypto had any reason to believe 2 scum teams for sure. It's something only scum would know for sure. When I realized he had legitimate reason for thinking so, I unvoted. What is scummy about that?

"non-updated avatar of puppy" I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY I WILL NOT CHANGE MY AVATAR TO SUIT YOUR NEEDS!

If there are other crappy reasons I missed, please let me know so I can blow those apart too.

Also, wtf is up with people voting me and then criticising other people for voting me? Xyl votes me and then tells idiotking his reason for voting me sucks. Vi is voting me and questions why pads is voting me. Usually when I am on a bandwagon I believe in, I don't question other people who join me helping me lynch said person.

I would rather get back to lynching Sigma, or possibly red coyote, who despite not being on all the wagons, is going into his hyper-analytical scum mode. I originally wanted to chase the wagons, but I think we should take a closer look at RedCoyote too.

[elvis_knits]

What are you talking about Xyl? Maybe you should read the game.

[elvis_knits]

What is the point of reading my own posts, Xyl?

Read the game, and then get back to me.

[elvis_knits]

What is the point of reading my own posts, Xyl?

^ scum

Thanks for confirming my first guess.

Can you be a little less lazy? kthxbai

[elvis_knits]

OMG congrats to pops and hiphop! They played an amazing game, and were even able to win given the extreme handicap of having myself on their scumteam.

Scum mason QT was very very fun, and I did indeed fal in love with pops!