Newbie #851 (Game Over!)

[iamausername]

-=Vote Count #13=-

swimmer4lyfe (1) - Alviaran
Alviaran (1) - swimmer4lyfe

Not Voting (5) - Einlanzers, Pierre Sickle, PorkchopExpress, Spinach, mykonian

4 to lynch.

[mykonian]

Lets see if I can post a shorter defense on PCE's attacks.

on the AS claim thing, my attack came later. Post 21, as claimed, was an explanation.

My problem, as stated later too, with the pierre attacks is that after the initial points, the fact that pierre overreacted or underreacted in defense got added to the case (in the same way I argued with Swimmer), and with newbies, I am not going to let such things count for a lot, esspecially when I did feel the person was town.

And part of my job as IC is to compliment a good player. Further, it is imperfect play to show a towny list, but not a scummy one.

Also, I found it hypocritical I was attacked for defending, while swimmer did so indirectly with S2R, ignoring most of the case on him. This had nothing to do with thinking they are both scum, since I almost never accuse someone of being scum if the other person is so, before I know that allignment for sure.

On the deadline lynch stuff: we were pretty much set on two targets, and Alv came up as a new one. I wanted to control the lynch, and on S2R, and then two days, in my experience, is short. So yes, I want to control lynches to get them on a person I believe should be lynched: that is town

Great too you are buddying to Swimmer. He has only reacted to me, never analysed my play, since you are the first one.


To see that this attack on swimmer couldn't be a serious lynch attack, look at the start of it. I was convinced alv had lied, but suddenly all out attacked swimmer, avoiding Alv completely, also when swimmer tried to point me that way. To say that it was too long has nothing to do with how serious it was. The lenght of it is more affected by the amount of people reacting (close to noone, sadly) then with the seriousness. Seriousness of attacks is determined by the points presented.




About OMGUS: it is imperfect play, but townies do it just as often as scum, making it a bad tell. Conclusion, don't do it, don't let yourself be convinced by it too easily.

[mykonian]

I know that this is fairly short, if you want to know more on a particular point (please, not all), please ask, then we can get quotes and stuff with it.

[Alviaran]

Sorry, was out of town. Posting because of prod. I'll get caught up a bit later today.

[Alviaran]

Since I was asked to post a list of my feelings on everyone, here it is, nice and brief:


Pierre Sickle: Scum or newb town. He made some big show at the start of day 2 of this being his scum hunting day and...nothing. He's done nothing. In the end, this makes me think he is scum. He said this to get pressure off of him from the end of day 1 and now has gone back to scum lurking.

Porkchop Express: Posts one liners a lot, but explains that this is because of RL. As someone else who has previously had to vanish for a couple days at a time, I can understand this. However, he seems to be bipolar in this posting. The short posts don't seem to add anything more than letting us know he is alive (more often IIRC being critiques of the way the game is being played than anything with the game itself) while his longer posts have a lot of substance. In the end, my feeling is helpful town or sly scum.

Swimmer4Lyfe: Scummy (big surprise that this is my read, huh?). I didn't like his tunnel on Pierre, even if I agree with the results. Ends doesn't justify means and all that. And for very obvious reasons, I don't like his new tunnel on me since I know I'm town. This tells me he is either misguided town or scum. And I'm leaning towards the latter.

Spinach: Doesn't post much at all. Lurky. I don't like that, but my read is still saying town.

Mykonian: Similar to PCE, I see him as either sly scum or helpful town. I'm still not sure which I feel. Actually, both of these probably warrant rereads to see which way I think they fall in the end.

Einlanzers: Honestly, not sure. It feels like I've seen him about but not taken great enough notice. Another potential reread when I have time.

[Pierre Sickle]

@Alviaran: So your saying by hunting... I've done nothing?

And sometimes, real life can get in the way of mafia, it's not always lurking. Lurking, in my own thought should only be considered as a sort of final resort, mainly because of the reason here.

I've done my best, it's just that nothing's been big enough as to make a quality post about it.

[PorkchopExpress]

Ok, Alviaran's player analysis is underwhelming. Unless I'm mistaken he's pretty much echoing other peoples opinions as he straddles that fence spectacularly on all but one read: Spinach.

The S4L read still comes with a hint of OMGUS and is pretty much a repeat of what Mykonian was on about. No original thought or demonstration of analysis here.

The information of the Pierre read is true (Pierre hasn't been scumhunting, imo) but it's totally lost amid Alv's qualifying.

The Spinach one is kind of interesting. I'm pretty sure Myk was the first to point out Spinach's lurking, and Alv is happy to follow such an established path. Despite all this, however, Alv still has a town read. Because? *Shrug*. Yesterday, Alv had a problem with Spinach's attitude and that's all we heard about that. I'm not sure where his townie read comes from at all. Except possibly needing to list at least one person in his analysis as likely town, so he didn't have five 'maybe scum?' reads.

This isn't scumhunting, this is placating other players with the least effort possible. I'm tired, I'mma go to bed for now. A tired mind isn't much good in Mafia.

[iamausername]

-=Einlanzers and Spinach have been prodded=-

[Einlanzers]

@Einlanzers: I wasn't going to respond, but here we go: I believe one wants to pressure scum mostly. Also, I think one must want to end with your vote on scum. What you do with your vote when a lynch isn't really the point, is up to the user of the vote. Personal preference, of course, which is why I didn't want to argue about it.

Well I think this is pretty obvious to everyone. You want to pressure scum until they crack and you want the person that you are voting for to be scum in the end. And the last bit about lynching being personal preference doesn't make any sense to me. Of course you want to lynch scum and of course it's your option who you vote for.... This isn't a response to ANYTHING I directed at you. I just stated that I don't like your vote/pressure/unvote (repeat) gamestyle.. it is not suited for anything after RvS and doesn't help town in the end.
You keep on spewing off game semantics instead of answering direct questions. This is a pretty big scum tell for ICs... as they like to look helpful, but not give actual opinions. But still... not even enough for a FoS from me...yet.

Pierre Sickle: Scum or newb town. He made some big show at the start of day 2 of this being his scum hunting day and...nothing. He's done nothing. In the end, this makes me think he is scum. He said this to get pressure off of him from the end of day 1 and now has gone back to scum lurking.

Porkchop Express: Posts one liners a lot, but explains that this is because of RL. As someone else who has previously had to vanish for a couple days at a time, I can understand this. However, he seems to be bipolar in this posting. The short posts don't seem to add anything more than letting us know he is alive (more often IIRC being critiques of the way the game is being played than anything with the game itself) while his longer posts have a lot of substance. In the end, my feeling is helpful town or sly scum.

Swimmer4Lyfe: Scummy (big surprise that this is my read, huh?). I didn't like his tunnel on Pierre, even if I agree with the results. Ends doesn't justify means and all that. And for very obvious reasons, I don't like his new tunnel on me since I know I'm town. This tells me he is either misguided town or scum. And I'm leaning towards the latter.

Spinach: Doesn't post much at all. Lurky. I don't like that, but my read is still saying town.

Mykonian: Similar to PCE, I see him as either sly scum or helpful town. I'm still not sure which I feel. Actually, both of these probably warrant rereads to see which way I think they fall in the end.

Einlanzers: Honestly, not sure. It feels like I've seen him about but not taken great enough notice. Another potential reread when I have time.

Wow way to play it easy. Even in your most scummy person (S4L) you even at the end state

"he is either misguided town or scum"

. And the closest thing you have to town is Spinach, who you feel is "lurky". This makes no sense to me. How can you have mostly neutral reads on everyone and even have your polar reads be so...neutral (read: safe).

Here's what I get out of this:

Pierre: I thought he was scum Day 1. And I don't want to go back on this.
Porkchop Express: I'll post common knowledge with no opinion and noone will notice.
Swimmer4Lyfe: He is accusing me and I want to OMGUS him back.
Spinach: He's town because he hasn't posted much.
Mykonian: I think he's X or Y, but have no reason behind either.
Einlanzers: No idea. Gee I really should be actually reading this game more, huh?

FoS: Alvarian

Scum are usually the ones that like to play it safe. Townies shouldn't be worried about image. They just post the cold-hard facts (and opinions), unless, of course, they would help scum out in any way.

[iamausername]

I love it when prods get instant responses like that.

[mykonian]

@Einlanzers: I wasn't going to respond, but here we go: I believe one wants to pressure scum mostly. Also, I think one must want to end with your vote on scum. What you do with your vote when a lynch isn't really the point, is up to the user of the vote. Personal preference, of course, which is why I didn't want to argue about it.

Well I think this is pretty obvious to everyone. You want to pressure scum until they crack and you want the person that you are voting for to be scum in the end. And the last bit about lynching being personal preference doesn't make any sense to me. Of course you want to lynch scum and of course it's your option who you vote for.... This isn't a response to ANYTHING I directed at you. I just stated that I don't like your vote/pressure/unvote (repeat) gamestyle.. it is not suited for anything after RvS and doesn't help town in the end.
You keep on spewing off game semantics instead of answering direct questions. This is a pretty big scum tell for ICs... as they like to look helpful, but not give actual opinions. But still... not even enough for a FoS from me...yet.

TBH, you have quite a record of posting about semantics. I am sorry if I didn't answer your question in the way you could understand. I think I have also said that I believe only your last vote should be on scum, and what you do before that (gaining information, pressuring scum), is pretty much up to the user. If I want to use my vote to get a view on Swimmers alignment, then that is not at all scummy. What you ask from me, to stick with my vote right from the start of day two, is in my opinion not a great way to play, since a vote is a powerful tool. I haven't done anything antitown with it, more information on players is generally a good thing (better lynches)

what is the weirdest about your argument is that you accuse me of two things:

spewing semantics
using my vote for information gathering (pressure)

I think those contradict, and I am fine with the second thing. The first is part of my job, I'm afraid. But also, to say that I have mostly been arguing semantics is quite a bad way to put it. I think I have mostly argued about the game, actually. At least a lot.

[Einlanzers]

Sorry, I didn't mean MOST of your posts are just spewing semantics. I meant that your responses to my directed question/accusation/whatever was to give game tips about what you should do...you didn't defend yourself against an accusation. It's all well-and-good to give tips, but if someone directs something towards you..you need to defend it with opinions; not semantics. And I guess we just disagree on the second point. And I don't want to argue about it any more. It isn't an overly scummy sign to do what you are doing...I just don't like that you do it.

[mykonian]

vote alviaran

get this going. The game is going slower and slower, and already during the start of the day we were pretty sure going to lynch alv. Now that with Einlanzers is over, I don't think there is any discussion going worth waiting for.

Lets see what happens next.

[Spinach]

@Alviaran: So your saying by hunting... I've done nothing?

And sometimes, real life can get in the way of mafia, it's not always lurking. Lurking, in my own thought should only be considered as a sort of final resort, mainly because of the reason here.

I've done my best, it's just that nothing's been big enough as to make a quality post about it.

Vote: Pierre

'Nothing big enough?' What? I've been poking you for 2 posts to respond to it and for 4 posts you've ignored me. I hope you can see that I am serious about this by my vote.

And Since it seems to me Pierre is scummy: I'd like to think Alviaran would be the possible partner in crime.

Here Alviaran clearly states Pierre > S2R in scumminess, and that he is going to hammer Pierre, but suddenly in his hammer post he concludes that S2R is scummier and hammers him. The only reason I can think of such conclusion is a scum save. Also, the ending bit of this post here strikes me as a scum trying to covertly tell it's scum counterpart to come and claim, and that nothing is going to happen. So,

FOS: Alviaran

[Einlanzers]

Pierre's Play so far:

#1 Joke vote on Alvarian
#2 Votes for AS for a "vanilla town claim" joke.
#3 Useless post.
#4 Says he is sticking to AS vote and asked if it is frowned upon to start a bandwagon. Then goes on to say that he isn't starting a bandwagon.
#5 Says internet is cutting out.
#6 OMGUS's PCE with a FoS because he pointed out his flaw in his whole bandwagon situation.
#7 Try's to argue semantics with Alvarian about lurking.
#8 Butts in to ask a question with an obvious answer.
#9 Says he suspects swimmer and throws in "It's not OMGUS, I swear." Rest of post is useless.
#10 Says nothing is fishy, so he unvotes off of AS then says that we need to lynch someone, so he votes S2R.
#11 Tries to give reasons why #10 was such a bad post.
#12 One liner arguing semantics about a mislynch.
#13 Tries to explain why he voted S2R over AS then states

"I'm mainly posting to show my presence"

#14 Apologizes after I FoS him then unvotes S2R because he hasn't

"had any huge traits."

#15 Something about a defense being bad...no idea.
#16 States the obvious: That he didn't vote S2R in the same post that he unvoted him (what?).
#17 Gets OMGUS towards S2R for his FoS on him, so he says

"I actually regret removing my vote now"

#18 Cries to the town to get S2R off his back. Says he wont vote him because then it'd just be OMGUS
#19 States he hasn't been here for awhile.
#20 Puts S2R at L-1 because he was told to in order to save his own hide (which was at L-1)
#21 Doesn't like Alvarian being upset that we lynched town. States why he didn't claim Day 1.
#22 Says Spinach has done nothing but point fingers and defend. Then says it's his scumhunting day?
#23 Says to ignore his last post and read the 3 pages yourself.
#24 Apologizes for a misconception concerning Alvarian.
#25 Apologizes for poor scumhunting.
#26 States that he is still alive.
#27 Picks apart one of swimmer4lyfe's posts.
#28 Blah blah blah
#29 Blah more

Broken Down:
Useless: #1,#3,#5,#7,#8,#11,#12,#14,#15,#16,#19,#23,#24,#25,#26,#28,#29
AS Case: #2,#4
PCE Case: #6
swimmer Case: #9,#27
S2R Case: #10,#20
Alvarian Case: #21
Spinach Case: #22
OMGUS: #6,#9,#17,#18

So MOST of his posts are useless banter and/or arguing game semantics. He has thrown suspicion upon 6 other people and has OMGUS'd at least 4 times. He's doing a lot of active lurking and diverting of attention. Actually he's doing a lot of following and copying of reasons...which is a scum tell. If he isn't scum (which I think he is at this point) then he's a terrible town.

Vote: Pierre Sickle

[Pierre Sickle]

@Spinach:

I did respond...

Post 242, page 10.

(I've replaced the bad quote with a good one)

First of all, doesn't defending and pointing fingers basically account for a most of content in a game? And that hasn't been all I've been doing, I mean, Page 9 post 208 of mine contained neither defense or finger-pointing.

And you're going to have to elaborate on that last comment about alviaran, because I don't know what you mean. Do you think I'm playing like him? Do you think I'm playing like him? Do you think I'm buddying? What?

Point out something else that I need to respond to. Except the why was I so out of it yesterday, it was more of my newbiness. I thought the whole of the first day was a sort of Semi RVS and I really couldn't find anything, especially with the summer heat in Australia pretty much sizzling my internet for about two days. Stupid possums or whatever bear this country loves... Koala. That's it, stupid Koalas.

[PorkchopExpress]

Actually, Pierre, your response doesn't clear anything up at all. Elaborate further on Alv and Spinach and what that means. Spinach's questions are a good place to start (and no, you haven't answered them) and so would actually analysing the play.

Allow me to demonstrate:

Spinach’s play has been fairly slender and there isn’t as much there as I thought. The most damning thing against him is how much he worries about appearances. What I was talking about here still stands. His first response is a dodge, plain and simple. This reply is scummy for a whole bevy of reasons:
1) He tries to reframe the issue I raise. See he didn’t have the hammer... Except I wasn’t talking about who hammered S2R, I was talking about Spinach balking when he had the opportunity to hammer and waiting until the rest of us gave our leave.
2) Then he plays a game of semantics. The problem here is that to argue that he hesitated (or was being cautious) Spinach has to understand that what I’m talking about is him passing up the opportunity to hammer, which makes his confusion about what I’m talking about total crap.
3) The whole “best pick for lynch” doesn’t stand up. The question does nothing to determine who the best lynch is, its sole purpose is to establish the safest play for Spinach.
4) Now he’s trying to hide his actions behind a power role flip. Except this isn’t what I’m on about either. I’m not giving him a hard time for wanting a claim; I’m after him for caring about his image too much.

The 2nd reply isn’t any better. This reply pretty much ignores that Spinach believed it highly unlikely they’d claim (so what’s the use in asking us if he should push harder for a claim?) and was ‘concerned’ about a no lynch result (if you are so worried about the deadline, why are you stopping to ask for directions?).

Also, I'd hate to sound pessimistic, but a scum lynch is rare on D1, so a townie being lynched isn't exactly the worst thing in the world, I mean, a town lynch leaves something to go off of, such as bandwagons (if there were any) and looking at voting patterns and such.

In light of such an attitude, I can’t see a good reason why Spinach is as worried about not having a claim (and a mislynch, as he claimed after the fact) as he is a no lynch.

Lies! If the unfortunate thing happens that we lynch a town; there is always something that can be learned from it. Always.

Unless he was worried that the result would get him unwanted attention.

Pretty much all the stuff with Einlazers involves misunderstanding one another, so it’s pretty null for me. It was nitpicky and pointless, in any event. But I don’t like how he chastises S4L for tunnelling, while following S4L’s lead. Cheap townie point scoring.

The Alv stuff is suspicious but I’m not sure yet. Defending Alv’s reaction to the NK feels scummy to me, and the eventual FoS of Alv could be an attempt at distancing

Vote: Spinach

I'll get back to you, Myk.

[mykonian]

Spinach, I know I am not allowed to correct you on your scumplay, but why not bus him good? A FoS is so... wishy washy. People will get that it only serves a purpose to be turned into a vote when the situation gets hopeless.

And then you are too late. Because everybody will see your jump on the wagon, for poor reasons, and while it is on scum, the whole series of posts before it show your connection to alv.

I know you aren't going to react to this post, don't worry. Maybe if you don't it goes away...

[iamausername]

-=swimmer4lyfe has been prodded=-

[swimmer4lyfe]

Sorry, veterans day is a huge holiday for me. I went somewhere there is no internet.

Will catch up and post tonight

[swimmer4lyfe]

Great too you are buddying to Swimmer. He has only reacted to me, never analysed my play, since you are the first one.

So now Myk has accused two players of "buddying up" with me. This tingles my spider sense.

He unvotes me because he thinks I'm town, but then he keeps throwing these little subtle jabs at people, implying he still thinks I'm town.

What's up with this myk? Wasn't your aggressive attack on me supposed to tell you my alignment? Why are you dropping subtle hints that you still think I'm scum?

[Spinach]

Spinach, I know I am not allowed to correct you on your scumplay, but why not bus him good? A FoS is so... wishy washy. People will get that it only serves a purpose to be turned into a vote when the situation gets hopeless.

And then you are too late. Because everybody will see your jump on the wagon, for poor reasons, and while it is on scum, the whole series of posts before it show your connection to alv.

I know you aren't going to react to this post, don't worry. Maybe if you don't it goes away...

Alviaran isn't ready for L-1, so I placed a FoS. I would've voted had it not been L-2, plus I felt my vote was better suited as a pressure vote so Pierre would (hopefully) respond.

@Spinach:

I did respond...

Post 242, page 10.

(I've replaced the bad quote with a good one)

First of all, doesn't defending and pointing fingers basically account for a most of content in a game? And that hasn't been all I've been doing, I mean, Page 9 post 208 of mine contained neither defense or finger-pointing.

And you're going to have to elaborate on that last comment about alviaran, because I don't know what you mean. Do you think I'm playing like him? Do you think I'm playing like him? Do you think I'm buddying? What?

Point out something else that I need to respond to. Except the why was I so out of it yesterday, it was more of my newbiness. I thought the whole of the first day was a sort of Semi RVS and I really couldn't find anything, especially with the summer heat in Australia pretty much sizzling my internet for about two days. Stupid possums or whatever bear this country loves... Koala. That's it, stupid Koalas.

No, you didn't, this is post 242:

If I look over again, it was Alviaran who had a decision to vote. My bad, if that will cover it.

I'd like more than a dodging one-liner.

Okay PCE, I admit I'm probably more concerned about how others perceive my actions than a townsperson should, and well, truthfully I didn't think of it as something scummy. I just noticed that the past couple of games I have played, I have been a bit careless in my actions, not thinking about what the town would perceive me as, so I came into this game thinking about this and trying to be more careful. I did not think that this type of play would lead people to think of me as scummy. I'll try to be less worried about this in the future. And I admit I have sort of been trying to stay out of the light, mostly because one of my goals for this game also was to live past D1, since pretty much all the games I've played I was eliminated N1.

@First Quote: I've said this and I am going to say it again, I wasn't trying to sound pessimistic, I was just trying to be real, because face it, most lynches on D1 are in fact town, and I wanted a claim to avoid PR lynching. (like we did..)

[mykonian]

Great too you are buddying to Swimmer. He has only reacted to me, never analysed my play, since you are the first one.

So now Myk has accused two players of "buddying up" with me. This tingles my spider sense.

He unvotes me because he thinks I'm town, but then he keeps throwing these little subtle jabs at people, implying he still thinks I'm town.

What's up with this myk? Wasn't your aggressive attack on me supposed to tell you my alignment? Why are you dropping subtle hints that you still think I'm scum?

Buddying up is the scumtactic to be nice to a certain towny, agree with him, so he will like you too (it works). Scum makes a connection with town that way, and is less likely to be lynched.

and I know nothing for sure

[PorkchopExpress]

@First Quote: I've said this and I am going to say it again, I wasn't trying to sound pessimistic, I was just trying to be real, because face it, most lynches on D1 are in fact town, and I wanted a claim to avoid PR lynching. (like we did..)

I'm not giving you a hard time because you think Day 1 is more likely to end in a mislynch. That's not what I'm talking about and I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to reframe the issue again.

What I'm talking about here (clearly) is that you know the town has to lynch otherwise it isn't chasing leads and isn't gaining information, but when the deadline was looming you were of two minds about whether to lynch because it might make you look bad. This is after you've stated that you don't believe any claims will be coming.

So, you started at a position of:

Scumlynch is better than a mislynch, which is better than a no lynch.

and shifted to:

No lynch is better than a claimless mislynch.

In a position that you thought might bring you unwanted scrutiny.

Then this whole, trying to dodge the NK thing. If you were trying to survive the NK by not being overly townie, why wouldn't you engage in behaviour that you considered somewhat scummy (but defensible none the less)? More to the point, as a vanilla townie why were you trying to dodge the NK at all? Part of what Vanilla does is make nice big pro-town targets of themselves to give the PRs some breathing room. If you value PRs so much that you'd risk a No Lynch to ensure not lynching one, why wouldn't you try and draw the NK away from potential PRs?

Your strategy is illogical and self-serving, your defence doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You are scum. Hell, I don't even need to drag this down into a debate about the merits of PR claims on Day 1.

[mykonian]

avoiding a NK is something only very good scumhunters can, and should do. Usually, from day 2 they want to come in action.

This isn't happening with spinach. He doesn't scumhunt.