Newbie #851 (Game Over!)

[PorkchopExpress]

you know what's funny Myk, is that you went after S2R all day trying to derail my bandwagon, and guess what, YOU got your mislynch. I still think Pierre is scum.

subjective omgus attack Swimmer doesn't come with any reasoning why I as scum wouldn't go with the easy Pierre lynch, etc. Rubbish argument, only a subjective way to attack me

Actually, Myk, I'm fairly sure that it's been well covered that your avoidance of a Pierre lynch makes sense if he's your buddy. Also, scum benefit from defending townies regardless. So, let's not play dumb.

[swimmer4lyfe]

myk if you want to know why I think you are scummy, maybe you should just read most of page 12.

Please stop being dumb

[mykonian]

but still nothing that makes me scummy. Only an obvious connection to someone allignment swimmer isn't supposed to know. And it is weird that while he goes for alv, I am becoming the bad guy very very soon after I attack him.

Now, lets say, that this attack was to find out what swimmers allignment is, what have we learned then? He is eager to point fingers to alv, and makes omgus-like statements.

[swimmer4lyfe]

but still nothing that makes me scummy. Only an obvious connection to someone allignment swimmer isn't supposed to know. And it is weird that while he goes for alv, I am becoming the bad guy very very soon after I attack him.

Now, lets say, that this attack was to find out what swimmers allignment is, what have we learned then? He is eager to point fingers to alv, and makes omgus-like statements.

I don't think you know what OMGUS means. I haven't made a single omgus statement, and have used logic and reasoning for all my accusations.

Think about this Myk...if I'm scum, then Alv is not scum. So if you're going after me, then that means you've changed your mind about Alv.

Alv has lied about his hammer vote and been generally scummy, as you've claimed. How come the minute I go after him as well, you decide to unvote alv and go after me?

You've become the bad guy because you are being scummy as hell by making up things to vote me for.

[swimmer4lyfe]

also Alv is the one that OMGUS voted me fyi. He even tried to make his case into stupid semantics

[PorkchopExpress]

but still nothing that makes me scummy. Only an obvious connection to someone allignment swimmer isn't supposed to know. And it is weird that while he goes for alv, I am becoming the bad guy very very soon after I attack him.

So, which is it, is he tunneling scum or is he making wild accusations all over the place?

[Pierre Sickle]

I was looking for the moment where he tried to defend himself against me and I was sure he was making though accusations until he flatly ignored me. He seems not to like Mykonian though, which is probably because he tries to go after him a little more.

[mykonian]

I don't think you know what OMGUS means. I haven't made a single omgus statement, and have used logic and reasoning for all my accusations.

Think about this Myk...

if I'm scum, then Alv is not scum.

So if you're going after me, then that means you've changed your mind about Alv.

Alv has lied about his hammer vote and been generally scummy, as you've claimed. How come the minute I go after him as well, you decide to unvote alv and go after me?

You've become the bad guy because you are being scummy as hell by making up things to vote me for.

We disagree on that first point.

Now, the whole goal of this was to get discussion, and not only about Alv. This horribly failed, since the whole game lurks.

Before you read the rest: I do dislike your day one play. It is not protown. Further, OMGUS is exactly the last sentence, since I didn't make anything up. I did make valid points (I would never lie as scum, since there is enough to argue about, usually), but while you already (should) know you are a towny, these may seem lies. Think how S2R must have felt.

One thing that happens a lot when being attacked is that you will see the attacker as scummy, since it is so obvious you are town! In this case, swimmer, it never was obvious. Since you were talking so much about pierre, and nothing else, nobody ever got a good look at you.


Einlanzers pointed it out well: there are multiple types of attacks. You can attack someone to find out his/her side, or you can attack to convince other people of a lynch. For the last thing, you need to find scum, in some way, and logically argue for his lynch.

Now tell me, with all the points in front of you: start of the day, low activity, and basically set on the lynch already, and then suddenly an attack on a person who has not been in the spotlight at all: what kind of attack was this?

unvote

And to get back at Einlanzers, since I didn't want to answer then: this was right. To go for a lynch on the start of the day, when you still don't know everyone, is not such great play. You want as much information as possible for every lynch (in theory)

[mykonian]

but still nothing that makes me scummy. Only an obvious connection to someone allignment swimmer isn't supposed to know. And it is weird that while he goes for alv, I am becoming the bad guy very very soon after I attack him.

So, which is it, is he tunneling scum or is he making wild accusations all over the place?

both. He tunneled through day one, found a new target day 2, and OMGUS attacked me when I attacked him.

btw, that is the so maniest time I use that "tell": OMGUS. Basically, this tell sucks. You shouldn't do it as town, (counterattacking with no reasons), since it is simply counterproductive, and the no reasons thing makes it just as likely that you attack a towny. Doesn't mean that townies don't do it. While the word is used in rhetoric, because it has some power when it is said, it actually doesn't make a strong case.

[mykonian]

Mykonians wishlist

Spinach power
More then oneliners from PCE, pierre
In case he still wants: a case on mykonian by swimmer
something else then semantics from Einlanzers
Alv to give an opinion about every player. (short list with how much you like them, and why)

[Einlanzers]

And to get back at Einlanzers, since I didn't want to answer then: this was right. To go for a lynch on the start of the day, when you still don't know everyone, is not such great play. You want as much information as possible for every lynch (in theory)

Is this a response to this post?:

Dangit...I keep finding stuff to respond to and making new posts. I'm sorry for this. This is the last of the series...

@mykonian,
I'm not a big fan of your play lately. The vote/ask question/get answer/unvote method is a pretty good method, but I think it's better for Day 1 when we have less information. Anything after Day 1 and it just looks like you're skipping around trying to latch onto anything.

If so you are misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not talking about lynching at all. I'm talking about using your vote for pressure to pull answers out of people. To restate: Good Day 1. The other days you should have enough information to at least take a guess at who is scum, so you can focus on them, and yes you would still use votes to pressure them, but you should also maintain that vote until they either prove to be innocent or someone else proves to be scummier.

SideBar: I'm glad that this S4L/Mykonian thing seems to have simmered down a bit, as I think this is some town-on-town action and not really going anywhere.

[swimmer4lyfe]

so since you unvoted, that means you think I'm town now?

I'm confused

[Spinach]

Mykonians wishlist

Spinach power
More then oneliners from PCE, pierre
In case he still wants: a case on mykonian by swimmer
something else then semantics from Einlanzers
Alv to give an opinion about every player. (short list with how much you like them, and why)

Excuse me for being slow, but Spinach Power is a joke right? >_> If not, what did you mean.

PIERRE. 240.

[Spinach]

No, I meant his hesitancy. We can call it caution if Spinach prefers, but the fact remains that his play and what he's saying aren't matching up.

Making sure that claimless hammering is okay by the rest of us suggests that he is more concerned with how his vote is going to be received than where his vote is going. Hell, it could indicate that Spinach knew it was a mislynch and wanted to make sure that he wouldn't be attracting suspicion.

(Update: The Portfolio of Doom has been handed in. Now the healing can begin. Thanks for your patience)

Making sure claimless hammering was okay with the rest of you would tell me if we needed to push a claim more or if I should be worried about getting a claim more or something. I didn't know if I was in the wrong thinking that doing what I had said was okay and I wanted to get other people's opinion.

[mykonian]

so since you unvoted, that means you think I'm town now?

I'm confused

I have no reason to believe you are scum. Before that, I didn't know.

And spinach: I don't hear you enough!

[swimmer4lyfe]

can you explain why you don't think I'm scum anymore?

It looks like backtracking to me

[Einlanzers]

can you explain why you don't think I'm scum anymore?

It looks like backtracking to me

I'm also curious to hear what the response to this is, but I think this is pretty much it:

Now, the whole goal of this was to get discussion, and not only about Alv. This horribly failed, since the whole game lurks.

I think you are wrong, mykonian. You did get discussion moving a bit. You obviously disagree with S4L Day 1 play while I think it was a pretty good way to play (well besides his post:

"alv if you don't want to hammer I can unvote and you can revote then I'll hammer"

). But yeah for the most part you guys were just going in circles about semantics (like S4L and Alvarian).

@mykonian,
Are you going to respond to my P310?

[mykonian]

can you explain why you don't think I'm scum anymore?

It looks like backtracking to me

this is why I pointed out why this couldn't be a discussion to get you lynched, but one to get your allignment out. I have never had an idea what your allignment was. Attacking you, and seeing your response under pressure could be a solution.

The fact that I did this while, like you said, Alv must be the lynch (as I argued before), but suddenly I go for you. This must have had a goal


@Einlanzers: I wasn't going to respond, but here we go: I believe one wants to pressure scum mostly. Also, I think one must want to end with your vote on scum. What you do with your vote when a lynch isn't really the point, is up to the user of the vote. Personal preference, of course, which is why I didn't want to argue about it.

[mykonian]

swimmer, lets put it this way: you might not get away with an tunnel-playstyle in every game, but you seem to have support from Einlanzers.

[ic]Biggest counterpoint is that you withhold information that could lead to scum on other players from the town (antitown), and that you miss it yourself, and that as scum it is easy to go on about a mistake one townie made.[/ic]

[iamausername]

-=Alviaran has been prodded=-

[swimmer4lyfe]

I've never really heard of making up stuff to attack someone as a reason to out their alignment, but whatever. I'll drop it for now.

Anyways, Alv lied, townies died. Not unvoting.

[PorkchopExpress]

I've never really heard of making up stuff to attack someone as a reason to out their alignment, but whatever. I'll drop it for now.

Anyways, Alv lied, townies died. Not unvoting.

It's not so much making things up, but exaggerating things for the sake of pressure. So, in this case, your 'tunnelling' is not necessarily obvscummy at all, but an opportunity to gauge your alignment by pressuring you about your play. Of course, the danger is that scum could possibly dress up a case against someone and when it ain't taking hold claim the whole thing was all pressure/scum baiting/an elaborate information-gathering strategy. I honestly don't think this is what happened this time around, Myk has overstated your scumminess too much for too long for it to have come from being simply unsure about your alignment (as opposed to suspicious).

So, due to me being a bum and letting this game be put on the backburner (Sorry again. Life, another game in LyLo and all the rest gets the better of me) I’m coming back with a big ol’ post or two.

Ok, I’m having some problems with Myk’s play thus far.

He tries to disown his earlier read of AS in this post. AS was one of Myk’s early suspects, and a part of that had to do with AS’ VT pseudoclaim shenanigans. It wasn’t simply an explanation, as Myk claims when S2R brings it up. Once again Myk is trying to downplay his defence of Pierre, this time he's used it to attack S2R by incorrectly claiming S2R was putting words in his mouth.

I also find a lot of his focus on S2R on the way he’s arguing things, rather than what he’s saying. It’s troubling considering how quickly he was to dismiss Pierre on the grounds of being unable to argue well.

I don’t like it when players offer town reads like this. At best it’s giving Scum a shortlist of Townie targets, at worst it is scum attempting to buddy up. It’s always better to let a seemingly dead-end drop without comment (or a neutral and simple “X is scummier than Y at the moment”).

So now you’ll run with the idea that defending someone suggests that they’re scumbuddies? What happened to all the ‘That’d make it too easy, wouldn’t it?’ Why entertain an argument that you do not agree with? This is a scummy double standard at play.

what I mean is that good town should check everyone

, and not just the ones that are more likely to be lynched. Something I believe I haven't done as a player, I have suspected a multiple of people. So yes, I think there is a difference. doesn't really matter, you got the point.

PCE:

I don't want to talk about alv now

, and the fact that S2R simply deny's what I've said makes him scum that just wants to survive this day. Alv just has a bigger chance at being newby town. With S2R this is not happening, he has read the accusations, but chooses not to react. The choice between Pierre and S2R is a gut one. I simply cannot see how Pierre's actions are done by scum. Like the paranoia point: I cannot see scum reacting that way, when someone tries to push them into a vote.

I can appreciate that Iso 36 was pretty close to the deadline. A day out, I believe. Iso 33 is two days out from the deadline though, which undercuts Myk’s point a little. Either way, it’s not hard to address more than one player but keep one as your primary lynch candidate (as Myk has suggested). So, it’s hard not to feel that Myk is engaging in some “play as I say, not as I do” style of game. I think this suspicion is compounded by how he keeps gunning for S4L for allegedly tunnelling (although S4L has looked at Pierre, Myk and Alv now, so I’m not sure how much that charge sticks). It seems to me that Myk really wanted to control this lynch and was unwilling to let it stray too far from his target (despite all his talk about casting a wide net).

I’m also not sold on the whole gauging vote, from Myk. S4L showed that he was using yesterday’s information and that he wasn’t going to ignore players when he started building a case against Alv today. So, testing him in the way that Myk did (and for the amount of time) wasn't This post really does look like backpedalling with a deflection about lurkers thrown in to help him back off. Especially if you look at post 308 when Myk says he is tunnelling, paranoid and erratic scum before rambling off about... something. It seems like he's basically admitting that he put S4L in a no win situation (a dubious admission that came after people started noticing this and it was obvious that his case was lacking support) and is now trying to excuse it by saying his case wasn't totally in earnest.

btw, that is the so maniest time I use that "tell": OMGUS. Basically, this tell sucks. You shouldn't do it as town, (counterattacking with no reasons), since it is simply counterproductive, and the no reasons thing makes it just as likely that you attack a towny. Doesn't mean that townies don't do it. While the word is used in rhetoric, because it has some power when it is said, it actually doesn't make a strong case.

Please explain this more clearly for me, Myk. I understand that you’re saying that OMGUS isn’t a very strong tell, but beyond that you’ve totally lost me.

@Mod: I'd like a vote count, please.

I’m going to give Spinach a reread and post that soon.

[mykonian]

I've never really heard of making up stuff to attack someone as a reason to out their alignment, but whatever. I'll drop it for now.

Anyways, Alv lied, townies died. Not unvoting.

Like I said, I didn't make up anything. I never have to. Players, esspecially newbies make enough mistakes to build up a decent case against them. Mistakes, as in not telling the rest of the town what you are thinking, and seeming disinterested in all the game except one player Believe me, even as scum, I will not lie in my cases.

And you should check mafia discussion, I think Thestatusquo made a nice article about it. I could look it up for you after school.

[mykonian]

I've never really heard of making up stuff to attack someone as a reason to out their alignment, but whatever. I'll drop it for now.

Anyways, Alv lied, townies died. Not unvoting.

Like I said, I didn't make up anything. I never have to. Players, esspecially newbies make enough mistakes to build up a decent case against them. Mistakes, as in not telling the rest of the town what you are thinking, and seeming disinterested in all the game except one player Believe me, even as scum, I will not lie in my cases.

And you should check mafia discussion, I think Thestatusquo made a nice article about it. I could look it up for you after school.

[iamausername]

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