Mini 836: Commie Mafia (Game Over)

[Raskol]

Yes, the misrep you put into your 'case', the parroted nature of it, and your "I don't really have a read on the game" talk.

Fishing for charter's read on you doesn't hurt either. There's also your treatment of Peabody D1, but I'm sure that's been talked to death already.

[SerialClergyman]

You didn't see fit to mention any of that stuff earlier or when you did decide to vote me? It looks to be after the fact, a little. Nonetheless I'll address what points I can clearly delinearate.

1) Not sure what misrep you feel I made, pointing it out would be good.
2) I don't know why you think my case is particularly parroted. I think the quote and iso posts I pulled up to show my thinking are specifically not parroted, unless i missed someone posting them recently.
3) I'm not sure what good you feel 'fishing for charter's read' would do me as scum. Basically I was challenging his reasons in calling me town (or at least not scum). As far as I can tell, that only hurts me as scum.
4) My 'treatment' of Peabody involves defending one aspect of his actions which I didn't feel was a scumtell and would defend again in an identical situation. I wasn't hugely into the wagon, but that's hardly unique, and you'll notice I never said that I thought Peabody was town, although I said that about a lot of other people. In fact, Talitha went to her death saying I was scummy for pushing the wagon on Peabody without the responsibility of voting when I said that I wouldn't mind a Peabody lynch.

Finally, interesting you should mention the not having a read on the game talk. Again, I'm not convinced it serves a scum agenda, but either way I'm just calling it as I see it, so I can only shrug. But I did notice this from you:

By the way, I do apologize terribly for not blowing the lid off the game with mindblowing new insights.

Coupled with the hypocritical stance on emotional voting/posting, I think you're falling into a few of the habits you're looking for in other people.

[Raskol]

0: I actually did mention all those things earlier (except for the charter thing), if not in the same words I just used.

1: Here's where I pointed out where I think you misrepresented me:

What a bunch of bullshit. My first post in the game was a case on my top suspect, and I've I haven't sat back for a second since. I did say that people who wanted info out of me beyond what I'm already volunteering independently would have to ask questions in order to get it, but I've in no way been "hanging back"

just waiting

for questions. True, I've had to spend a good amount of my time defending myself, but even in that I think a lot of information has come out, and not just about me.

2: What you said about

me

was pretty much a repeat of charter's complaint.

3: It would be less scummy if you weren't simultaneously parroting his read of me, but atm it feels like buddying.

4: I wouldn't vote for you based on that alone, but the fact remains that you defended Peabody (and he defended you).

5: I never said anything about emotional/irrational displays posting, just voting and decision making (and by the way, even if I had, using a few vehement expressions does not an irrational post make). This is more misrep.

6: I think I have a bit more of an excuse than you for not having as solid a read on things as I would like than you do, given the fact that I've only been in the game as a participant for a few days.

[charter]

Charter - could you explain your read of me a little more thoroughly?

I ask because I've been looking at this game and shaking my head at my play. I can't seem to get a read, get a theory. I've been using bandwagon analysis to try to conjure something, just to try to get a spark. I find very little to differentiate the players in the game and I'm posting very little essentially because I refuse to post opinions that are made up or that I don't really believe in.

Uhhh, before I thought you were scum because your play day one was bad. Mine was too. I haven't disagreed with anything you've said really since then. If you want more, the post where I voted you explains what I saw, most of it was questionable interactions with Peabody.

[mathcam]

Man, one day I'm carrying the conversation, then the next, I'm behind with 4 pages of stuff to catch up on. Still haven't parsed everything, but...

I don't think Raskol's original "no PBPA" stance was entirely unreasonable. For example, I think an explicit list indicating who's most town, who's second most town, etc., is more beneficial to scum than it is to town (though mostly because I don't think it's all that beneficial to either). I also think that part of charter's attack does, as Raskol points out, indeed stem from anger (or whatever other emotion) at Raskol's refusal to indulge him. But, I also think that Raskol played a bit of the same game himself -- clearly there were compromises between "only post on le chat" and "post PBPA on everyone", for example posting a top 3 suspicion list, or roughly dividing the town in to town thoughts and scum thoughts. Instead, in what I would attribute to a stubborn stand on his principles, refused to accommodate to fairly reasonable requests from the town. I'm not sure if there's anything to be made out of either stance...both are plausibly genuine regardless of their alignment.

Glad to see we got some emotion from Raskol in

Raskol v. SC

...Raskol came off town there to me.

Can someone explain VI to me? Why do we think CoCo was a VI? Or is this a playstyle description and not a role? We remember he claimed vanilla town right?

SC continuing his "Why doesn't charter find me scummy?" approach is a little intriguing. Given that I already called him out on a similar argument as scummy, it says something that he's willing to push it further.

Donny hasn't done much to throw me off the Le Chat wagon, so vote stays for now.

Cam

[Hoopla]

Cam, VI = Village Idiot.

[charter]

People keep saying this, what is so unreasonable for me to ask for his thoughts on more than just one person? He didn't say anything new about le Chat. I don't get it.

At first I just wanted to know what he thought about people besides just le Chat, then he got all in a huff and I pressed harder.

[charter]

Also, Mathcam, what do you make of Raskol claiming he scumhunts by interacting with other players, but then he sits back and demands that we quiz him (as SC so elegantly put it)? He flat out refuses to do anything but answer questions. I actually find him to be quite a bit scummier than Coco.

[mathcam]

Cam, VI = Village Idiot.

Yeah, someone posted that earlier. I just didn't know what that meant -- whether it was a role, or a playstyle. But a quick trip to the Wiki has set me straight.

People keep saying this, what is so unreasonable for me to ask for his thoughts on more than just one person?

Really, someone said that was unreasonable? I sure didn't. Maybe you could quote that somewhere.

Cam

[mathcam]

Also, Mathcam, what do you make of Raskol claiming he scumhunts by interacting with other players, but then he sits back and demands that we quiz him (as SC so elegantly put it)? He flat out refuses to do anything but answer questions. I actually find him to be quite a bit scummier than Coco.

I agree that there is a mild contradiction in philosophies here, but I'm not sure Raskol is

actually

guilty of this. He's been active enough in the short time he's been in this game that I'm not sure it's fair to say he's been sitting back at all.

Don't get me wrong, my suspicions of CoCo haven't instantaneously disappeared. I just think it's difficult to get a further read this quickly on a replacement paper...I find I'm skeptical to the idea that he got a role, decided on a playstyle different from his usual fare, and his scumminess got revealed as a consequence.

[charter]

Well, what he's doing I think is scummy too. He's refusing to do much and justifying it by saying, 'well, it will just help scum'. I'd argue that it helps town more than scum, but that's not really the point. I think it's scummy to use that excuse to avoid giving opinions on people. I really see no town reason for him to not talk about more than just le Chat. Plus, I'm pretty sure I've been caught as scum trying to pass off 'it helps scum' as a reason for not answering a question.

[Cyberbob]

What do you think of SC's little change of heart, there?

I think it's reasonable given that he appears to be basing it more on your play than some sudden epiphany he's had about CoCo's play (if he had tried to play this card I would definitely be calling him out on opportunism).

Don't really have much else to say right now. I would like to go on the record as absolutely hating anything that excuses scummy play just because it's "too scummy", which is essentially the whole idea behind the "VI" construct.

[Raskol]

He's refusing to do much and justifying it by saying, 'well, it will just help scum'. I'd argue that it helps town more than scum, but that's not really the point. I think it's scummy to use that excuse to avoid giving opinions on people. I really see no town reason for him to not talk about more than just le Chat. Plus, I'm pretty sure I've been caught as scum trying to pass off 'it helps scum' as a reason for not answering a question.

Why are you pretending as if I still haven't said anything about anyone but le Chat? Have you actually been reading the thread?

[charter]

Damn. The jig is up. I haven't read a damn word the whole game. My strawman answer to the strawman question.

[Raskol]

I guess that would explain why you've missed all my posts where I give opinions on players other than le Chat.

I was starting to think you had a learning disability of some kind---glad that's not the case.

Now, if you would be so kind as to go back and read, I'm sure this will all be cleared up.

[charter]

Why haven't we lynched Raskol yet?

[Raskol]

Why haven't we lynched Raskol yet?

Because some people prefer to vote based on alignment-relevant behavior.

Or at least, I hope so.

[charter]

Your alignment is scum.

[Raskol]

Your alignment is scum.

Other than butthurt, what reason do you have to think that? (One which isn't directly disproven by a casual glance at the posts I've made, that is?)

[Cyberbob]

Other than butthurt

Next time you use the word butthurt in a derogatory fashion, or any other sort of thing along the same lines I'll be PMing Kublai. Personal insults have no place in mafia.

[Raskol]

How is that a personal insult, exactly? Would you have preferred that I use a longer phrase that means the same thing, like "a desire to spite me because of your emotional overreaction to my refusal to do your exact bidding"?

Personally, I prefer "butthurt". It doesn't take nearly as long to type.

[charter]

This has been made abundantly clear by myself, cyberbob, and anyone else voting you. Have you actually been reading the thread?

[Raskol]

This has been made abundantly clear by myself, cyberbob, and anyone else voting you. Have you actually been reading the thread?

So you're going to maintain that you still have no idea what I think about anyone but le Chat?

I know you've already as much as said you would refuse to consider new information, but I didn't think you really

meant

it.

[charter]

You said like two words about Hoopla and some back and forth with SC, but didn't say much about him. Pulling teeth is less painful than getting your opinions on players. You have much more interest in petty arguments than you do with finding scum.

You also aren't actually trying to refute any of reasons anyone has voted you with, instead, more pointless arguments.

[Hoopla]

charter ----> <---- Raskol

. . . . . .

Cyberbob --->

Hoopla ---->