Mini 836: Commie Mafia (Game Over)

[charter]

I am pretty sure that in every setup hider resolves before just about everything (if not everything) else, so roleblocking doesn't seem plausible to me. Not submitting an action is obviously possible/probable.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hello all.

I've been following the game since mid day 1 and I'm already mostly familiar with what's been going on, so it shouldn't take me too long to do a quick reread to refresh my memory.

I on the other hand am just reading it for the first time, I'll try and power through it tonight.

[Hoopla]

I am pretty sure that in every setup hider resolves before just about everything (if not everything) else, so roleblocking doesn't seem plausible to me. Not submitting an action is obviously possible/probable.

Oh wait, Kublai's rules say that if no action is made, choice is randomized, so I guess that throws that out the window.

Who do you think Sens would have hid behind?

[SerialClergyman]

What about the possibility that he chose not to hide that night and scum killed him?

Hi replacements, thanks mod!!

[Hoopla]

What about the possibility that he chose not to hide that night and scum killed him?

Hi replacements, thanks mod!!

I don't know why you would bother not hiding. It's a pretty handy town-confirmer.

The only real possibilities I see is Sens targetting scum, and scum targetting Sens.

Or Sens targetting scum, and scum killing someone else but being stopped somehow.

[charter]

My guess would be he hid behind Cyberbob or le Chat.

I think we should stop debating all the speculation regarding Sens dying. Unless you can come up with something concrete, I don't know what good it's actually going to do. Obviously everyone is free to think what you want, but I don't think anyone is getting convinced of something else from all this.

[charter]

I don't know why you would bother not hiding. It's a pretty handy town-confirmer.

I've been a hider before, it's very easy to not hide. You don't want to die and you go paranoid thinking "what if" over and over. Although, I just flat out claimed start of day two and said I had to hide every night, then didn't hide any more.

[SerialClergyman]

Lol at that claim charter.

I agree with hoopla on the theory, but have seen town hiders not hide before so i wouldn't rule it out, and occham says that's the simplest IMO.

[Socrates]

Okay, starting over.

I am a bad lynch. Vaya had no real interactions other than with CoCo at the beginning, it is highly likely there are only 2 mafia, in which case it is impossible for me to be Peabody's scumbuddy, and I would likely have made the kill if I was the scumbuddy on a three man team.

So, not only would the town not really get anything from the lynch, but there is real evidence that decreases my likelyhood of being scum in any case.

Vaya is also a habitual lurker and does it regardless of alignment.

Now, with that out of the way:

I did not like SC's play day 1. He spends most of the day dismissing the case on Peabody as "the RVS vote" when there was more to it than that. Hell, at one point he even admits that Peabody committed a real scum tell, but continued to insist that it was a bad wagon. Also note that his first case was on CyberBob, an early proponent of peabody's wagon (the first?), and the wagon he spends the most time on is Talitha, another early detractor of Peabody.

Also, his interactions with Sens was pretty bad. He was trying his damned hardest to make Sens' extended absence look scummy when it was nothing of the sort.

On Harumafuji, it is worth thinking about what his intentions must have been entering this game. I can't think he would NOT do his translation party thing as town, because if he was inconsistent about it in games it would be pretty obvious, and it is pretty clear that he made the account with the sole intention of doing his thing, so I don't think it is indicative of his alignment.

Reading CoCo made me want to stab my own eyes out. I find myself waffling quite alot about him like some of the other people in the thread. I am gonna have to sit down and really try to sort through to some sort of read on him.

Le Chat was a frustrating player for me to read. His posts had a high word count, but they didn't feel like they had anything to them. It really hit me when I noticed that I hadn't seen anything in bold from him until page 10, and in fact made 3 votes the entire game. That is harcore fence sitting right there. Also, the way he got off of Col. Cathart's wagon was terribad.

This post in particular set off my scumdar:

As for the rest of your post, it feels quite wishy-washy. I'd rather you made definitive assessments on Vaya and Cathart.

Who is your prefered lynch out of Vaya and Cathart?
Would you hammer Cathart if I wasn't going to vote him?

i would like to see vaya kick his butt when he runs and start posting opinions and get back in the game. i would take the pact. i would also choose to lynch cathart over vaya.

if you told me right now you werent going to hammer him, i wouldnt hammer in your place. i fear his claim is for real and were getting rid of doctor-man. i dont mind more talking.

le chat, any coment on the night choice of cathart?

you mean that he says he chose to roleblock vaya instead of doc protecting someone? well the main problem is that he later said he didnt know roleblocks stopped kills. as a doctor-role youre doing a lot more by stopping a potential kill by roleblocking the killer or doctoring the target than you are doing by roleblocking a non-lethal mafia action, which is what he said his goal was, as he didnt know a roleblock would stop a kill. thats if there are 2 maf.

ugh. that is a dumb stance for him to take. doesnt make sense.

hoopla i dont know if i would hammer him or not. i fear losing a doc role and his claim sounds like it could be true. end of day 1 he was literally voting WITH peabody. that seems careless to do if you are maf partner with peabody, be the only two people voting a guy.

i wouldnt hammer if you didnt. i think we can still look at more people toDay.

He admits that Col. Cathart's Play makes absolutely no sense, not to mention he eggs on the wagon with more suspicion (which is pretty poor BTW) and yet he believes the claim anyway, and refuses to hammer on the basis that we might lost a doc.

Scummmmmmmmmy.

I need to think some more and I might have more to say, but I want to get this out in case my computer crashes again.

[mathcam]

Just a general comment: I'm totally fine not drawing any conclusions about who Sens

did

hide with it, but I do think it's pretty clear that he

wouldn't

have hid with CoCo. I have a mental picture of a hider has not being able to choose not to hide, but I think my knowledge of hiders may be several years out of date. If that was an option, I definitely see Sens not hiding as a possibility, though I tend to agree with Hoopla that you might as well...especially if you can work in a breadcrumb beforehand.

I've been following the game since mid day 1 and I'm already mostly familiar with what's been going on, so it shouldn't take me too long to do a quick reread to refresh my memory.

Wow, I've been barely following the game since day one, and I'm

in

the game.

Nice to have active people again.

Cam

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

K, reached page 24 (why isn't someone dead already?) and I need to get some sleep. I'll finish reading tomorrow (probably midday).

[Raskol]

Alright, first did an iso-read of Peabody looking for connections.

The strongest connection I found was the complete lack of connection between him and le Chat. He's the only player in the game whom Peabody neither attacked nor defended in any way (everyone else, living AND dead, was at least minorly defended or lightly attacked). In fact, aside from answering a few questions le Chat asks him, Peabody doesn't mention him at all.

On the other side, le Chat asked a few noncommittal questions of Peabody, but otherwise defended him (in his special half-hearted way).

The overall pattern of fence sitting and infrequent voting doesn't hurt the case, either.

I'd say as of right now, le chat (now DDD) is my choice for the lynch.

[charter]

Can you guys give opinions on more than just the scummiest players? All of your predecessors ranged from highly questionable to probable scum, and just chiming in just to pile on each other in order to save yourselves isn't really that helpful and probably won't help you out.

[Raskol]

I'm not really comfortable giving out a full list with town reads at this point, but if you have any specific questions I'll be happy to answer them.

[charter]

I'm not really comfortable giving out a full list with town reads at this point, but if you have any specific questions I'll be happy to answer them.

I want to know specifically what you think about each player.

[Raskol]

I'm sorry. Full player lists for the sake of full player lists don't really work for me. I prefer not to talk about my town reads unless there's some definite advantage to doing so (which will outweigh painting a nk bullseye on their backs). Right now I don't see how it would do anyone any good.

I prefer having people ask me questions about specific players, or better yet, specific actions and events. That way we can have an exchange of information---you get to find out what I think, and I get to find out what kind of things you most want to know. That way, if someone wants to fish for my opinion on a certain player, they have to ask for it right out in the open where everyone can see it.

[Hoopla]

I'm sorry. Full player lists for the sake of full player lists don't really work for me. I prefer not to talk about my town reads unless there's some definite advantage to doing so (which will outweigh painting a nk bullseye on their backs). Right now I don't see how it would do anyone any good.

I prefer having people ask me questions about specific players, or better yet, specific actions and events. That way we can have an exchange of information---you get to find out what I think, and I get to find out what kind of things you most want to know. That way, if someone wants to fish for my opinion on a certain player, they have to ask for it right out in the open where everyone can see it.

I think the supposed downfall of players 'painting targets' on townies for NK's is a load of rubbish. Scum aren't brainless morons (usually), playing a different game to us. They can sense who has a town-presence amongst the group - don't you when you're scum?

Only talking about your scum reads gives you immense personal wriggle-room for later in the game, as you have no previous opinions you need to correct or restate. I'd rather the entire town declare the entirity of their thinking, than keeping tricks up their sleeve. Scum players like to have options.

[Raskol]

I'm sorry. Full player lists for the sake of full player lists don't really work for me. I prefer not to talk about my town reads unless there's some definite advantage to doing so (which will outweigh painting a nk bullseye on their backs). Right now I don't see how it would do anyone any good.

I prefer having people ask me questions about specific players, or better yet, specific actions and events. That way we can have an exchange of information---you get to find out what I think, and I get to find out what kind of things you most want to know. That way, if someone wants to fish for my opinion on a certain player, they have to ask for it right out in the open where everyone can see it.

I think the supposed downfall of players 'painting targets' on townies for NK's is a load of rubbish. Scum aren't brainless morons (usually), playing a different game to us. They can sense who has a town-presence amongst the group - don't you when you're scum?

Actually, I've found in my (limited) experience playing as scum that knowing what everyone thinks of everyone else is incredibly useful when deciding whom to attack and nk. 'Townie presence' isn't something that just exists 'out there' and can be sensed by anyone like checking to see what time it is---in actual play it's largely a matter of individual perception. True, people tend to see a lot of the same things as being townie, but there's more disagreement than you might expect, and it's invaluable to get it straight from the townies themselves---especially when it's given to you without anyone knowing you wanted to know it.

Overall, I'd say that yes, having players volunteer their neutral and townie reads is very helpful for a scum player. That doesn't mean I think it's a bad idea per se (after all, it helps town too)...it just means I think it should be done in certain ways and at certain times. All at once in a big summary post is not one of those ways, and right now is not one of those times.

Only talking about your scum reads gives you immense personal wriggle-room for later in the game, as you have no previous opinions you need to correct or restate. I'd rather the entire town declare the entirity of their thinking, than keeping tricks up their sleeve. Scum players like to have options.

I didn't say I wouldn't talk about town-reads at all. I just said that I won't hand out a summary of all my thoughts on the entire game without anyone having to put themselves out there for specific information. I'm fine giving out any and all info as long as the person who wants it is forced to let everyone know what they wanted to know and why. I feel like a conversational exchange between players about specific details of the game brings out more information about all of them and is better for town in pretty much every way than having someone give out a general summary of their 'thoughts about everyone'. Better yet, it forces scum to actually engage with me if they want info out of me (and if they're good, they want info out of everyone)...which lets me learn about them at the same time.

[charter]

I am quickly finding myself wanting to lynch Raskol because he is continuing Coco's streak of trying to be as unhelpful and unreadable as possible.

[charter]

Just a general comment: I'm totally fine not drawing any conclusions about who Sens

did

hide with it, but I do think it's pretty clear that he

wouldn't

have hid with CoCo. I have a mental picture of a hider has not being able to choose not to hide, but I think my knowledge of hiders may be several years out of date. If that was an option, I definitely see Sens not hiding as a possibility, though I tend to agree with Hoopla that you might as well...especially if you can work in a breadcrumb beforehand.

Ah, ok, I see what you're saying. Yes, hiding behind Coco doesn't seem possible without an obvious breadcrumb.

To expand on my last post, Raskol comes in replacing one of the scummy players, who seemed to make it his personal mission to create havoc, and only mentions the other big lynch contender, le Chat. And this is a really really small mention too, and didn't say anything new. I have absolutely no idea what he thinks about anything else in the game. I asked him to provide some more, but he gets all defensive saying that it only helps scum. Not true, and at the least, very very anti town of him. Basically Raskol came in and jumped on the biggest wagon and hasn't said two words about anyone else. Unacceptable and scummy.

[Raskol]

No, you're wanting to lynch me because you're too lazy to ask your own questions and/or you're pissed that you didn't get your own way.

I will repeat myself, much as I hate doing it: I will give any info you want, but I do not do full player list summary posts. If you don't like that, and you want to ragevote me, then go ahead.

[Raskol]

Here's an example of the kind of post I respond well to: can anyone besides Cyberbob show me an example of a post they have made where they've given reasons to lynch CoCo other than the fact that he was a VI?

In other words, can anyone make an actual case, or is this a lynch of laziness/policy?

(Specific question, with a definite answer. Alignment relevant and game-furthering. Revealing of the questioner's thought processes and capable of being built upon for further discussion)

[Hoopla]

Here's an example of the kind of post I respond well to: can anyone besides Cyberbob show me an example of a post they have made where they've given reasons to lynch CoCo other than the fact that he was a VI?

In other words, can anyone make an actual case, or is this a lynch of laziness/policy?

I'll bite - here is a post I made on Day 2, which pretty much still stands in regards to CoCo, although he is less scummy due to Sens probably not hiding behind him.

I'm still at odds about what to do with CoCo. For those opposed to the 'easy lynch', do you think he would act any differently as scum? The facts are he defended Peabody on multiple occasions, especially early for the random vote thing (see here: 1, 2, 3, 4)

After this early foray of defenses, he decides to iso-read Peabody and conveniently does a 180 and jumps on with the L-1 vote. I know everyone is finding it difficult to read CoCo, but this is a signifigant enough piece of evidence - especially when he rarely, if ever defended any other player. It seems to me he was trying to deter suspicion on Peabody early, then as it became increasingly likely he was going to be lynched, he had to somehow change his views to jump on and gain some town credit.

This theory is also quantified by the way he acted toward my early bandwagon. You'll note he was on edge when my wagon reached 4 and 5 votes. I think a similar thing happened when Peabody reached the same mark, he genuinely felt his Peabody's lynch was inevitable, and had to change his views knowing what Peabody would flip.

This smorgasbord of evidence is enough for me to think he is probably scum. This does not even include points I posted throughout D1 (such as bringing up his own two-game meta to try and defend himself, and his late flip-flopping on Peabody).

So, my question to those who don't think CoCo is scum is; what would CoCo have to do, for you to consider lynching him? Despite being anti-town, people only oppose his lynch because it seems too obvious. This is a bad trap to fall into as it allows him to get away with anything that could be construed as lying or a scumtell. The lynches become more important each day, and we don't want to be in a situation where he is alive in Lylo.

What do you think, mister?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm a goddamn American hero for replacing into this game.

~

I know several house cats that demonstrate more intelligence than CoCo did early in the game. However, everything I've seen suggests town as well and CoCo/Raskol is way down on my lynch list.

I think any assumptions of Vaya's innocence based around his inability to make the N1 kill and a two person scum team are overblown. However, someone did make that kill and it wasn't Vaya so I'm opposed to a Socrates lynch at least until we can eliminate the source of the N1 NK.

Charter is blatently stacking lynches based upon Peabody in 123, even more suspicious in retrospect since Peabody flipped scum and Col. Cathart town. Also charter you’re a whole hell of a lot more argumentative early in this game then I’ve seen you as town in our recent incursion(s).

Hoopla’s D1 policy lynches proposal also seems to run in contrast to her town play in charter’s Stratego mafia as well.

So I've got playstyle issues with Hoopla and Charter, but nothing serious enough for me to consider lynching on right now.

When I ran my patented Triple D trend analsysis I had four names that appeared to rise above the rest in terms of likely scum: Peabody, Cyberbob, Haru/SC, and mathcam. Due to D1 interactions with Peabody I believe cyberbob to be the most likely to be town of the set and I believe SC and mathcam to be the most likely scum in this game.

Unvote; Vote: SerialClergyman

He's scum, lets lynch him.

[Raskol]

I'm still at odds about what to do with CoCo. For those opposed to the 'easy lynch', do you think he would act any differently as scum? The facts are he defended Peabody on multiple occasions, especially early for the random vote thing (see here: 1, 2, 3, 4)

After this early foray of defenses, he decides to iso-read Peabody and conveniently does a 180 and jumps on with the L-1 vote. I know everyone is finding it difficult to read CoCo, but this is a signifigant enough piece of evidence - especially when he rarely, if ever defended any other player. It seems to me he was trying to deter suspicion on Peabody early, then as it became increasingly likely he was going to be lynched, he had to somehow change his views to jump on and gain some town credit.

This theory is also quantified by the way he acted toward my early bandwagon. You'll note he was on edge when my wagon reached 4 and 5 votes. I think a similar thing happened when Peabody reached the same mark, he genuinely felt his Peabody's lynch was inevitable, and had to change his views knowing what Peabody would flip.

This smorgasbord of evidence is enough for me to think he is probably scum. This does not even include points I posted throughout D1 (such as bringing up his own two-game meta to try and defend himself, and his late flip-flopping on Peabody).

So, my question to those who don't think CoCo is scum is; what would CoCo have to do, for you to consider lynching him? Despite being anti-town, people only oppose his lynch because it seems too obvious. This is a bad trap to fall into as it allows him to get away with anything that could be construed as lying or a scumtell. The lynches become more important each day, and we don't want to be in a situation where he is alive in Lylo.

I'd say the points about CoCo defending Peabody and jumping on and off his wagon are valid ones---but he was hardly the only one to do either of those things.

Of living players, both SC and le Chat also defended Peabody (maybe others that I don't remember), and charter jumped off the Peabody wagon when it had gotten to L-1---doing a complete 180 of his own and voting mathcam.

So yes, there are some connections between CoCo and Peabody that could be scummy---CoCo defending Peabody, and acting erratically on his bandwagon. I don't think those actions particularly stand out, though, because there were other players who did similarly. I might be biased on that, but that's my stance.

OTOH, Peabody went after CoCo pretty hard, but ignored le Chat altogether, neither attacking nor defending him, while le Chat made a halfhearted, non-confrontational defense of Peabody. That, to me, is something which I find a far more likely indicator of a scumpair than the kind of blatant defenses that CoCo and SC offered, especially since Peabody's actions towards le Chat were unique in that respect---he didn't ignore anyone else.