Newbie #851 (Game Over!)

[mykonian]

OK.

@swimmer: paranoid people don't know what is going on, scum does know. That is the reasoning. So scum would never be paranoid if someone tries to convince them.

AS has a great point pierre. That post doesn't help you a bit, and if you want to win, be it before or after your death, you want to hunt for scum.

[iamausername]

-=Vote Count #5=-

Pierre Sickle (3) - swimmer4lyfe, PorkchopExpress, Alviaran
stands2reason (2) - Pierre Sickle, mykonian

Not Voting (4) - Einlanzers, Spinach, AntiSemantic, stands2reason

5 to lynch.

THIS IS YOUR ONE WEEK WARNING. CLICK HERE FOR DEADLINE CLOCK.

[Pierre Sickle]

Well I needed time posting that : )

Just a bad post. I also give reasons as to why he may not be scum to add information. Sometimes, you have to look at the picture two ways.

Yes, but you do not decide to lynch someone JUST to get information. We want to AVOID a mislynch if possible. We just have to come to terms that we are likely to mislynch and to realize that a mislynch is still better for us than a no lynch.

You're quickness to lynch someone for information tells me you are scummy and are trying to get us to lynch one of our own.

Didn't you JUST say in the same post that a mislynch would be better. It would shed some light on who may be potential scum.

Pierre he said that a mislynch would be better than a no lynch, but a scumlynch should be the thing you are ultimately looking for. He is also saying/inferring that you seem to want a lynch regardless of scum/town status to just get information. I am also getting a similar vibe now.

@Everyone, this could just be by scumdar not working properly, but I'm just getting a town read from stands2reason. Granted most people here are new to the game, but I just feel that his mistakes are mainly new-player-related. On the other hand, I am seeing a lot of scummy actions from Pierre and I'm going to put a

FoS Pierre Sickle

for now because I don't want to put him at L-1 without proper reason/explanation.

Well, that's right actually. My mistake, though I'm learning everyday.

Anyway, we really can't get anyone really for a scumlynch, seeing as no one has shown any major tells as of yet. I guess I should

Unvote

for stands hasn't had any huge traits. I think we need to hang back until we have someone, but we have to try as much as possible to avoid a mislynch. In the next week, I'm sure someone's gonna crack. But if that's not the case, we need another idea.

[Pierre Sickle]

EBWOP: To AS, that was one piece of defense

I always thought defense was something, so that people would mistake you for scum. Guess I can guess again on that now.

[swimmer4lyfe]

Hi Pierre!

Would you like to defend yourself at all or are you going to ignore the allegations against you until the end of the day?

[SemanticError]

EBWOP: To AS, that was one piece of defense

I always thought defense was something, so that people would mistake you for scum. Guess I can guess again on that now.

Just because being hyper-defensive or defending yourself poorly are scum tells, doesn't mean that not acknowledging the fact that you are a suspect is the right, townie thing to do. Questions have been raised. Answer them. A townie would have nothing to hide.

(Well, maybe a power role. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.)

[iamausername]

-=PorkchopExpress has been prodded=-

[PorkchopExpress]

Responding to my prod. Sorry about my absence, work got the better of me. I'll post tomorrow morning, and that's a promise.

[Alviaran]

Well, that's right actually. My mistake, though I'm learning everyday.

Anyway, we really can't get anyone really for a scumlynch, seeing as no one has shown any major tells as of yet. I guess I should

Unvote

for stands hasn't had any huge traits. I think we need to hang back until we have someone, but we have to try as much as possible to avoid a mislynch. In the next week, I'm sure someone's gonna crack. But if that's not the case, we need another idea.

This isn't a defense at all. Your unwillingness to defend yourself makes me think you ARE scummy. That is a major tell.

As others have said, defending yourself is not scummy. In fact, it is the expected response to being accused or sought after.

And your "always thought" comment in your EBWOP implies to me you aren't exactly new to this.

[mykonian]

Alv! I still get something from you about that thing you constructed against Pierre.

where did he say he wanted a mislynch!

Even the above post doesn't bring anything new, but basically says: lynch Pierre.

Please explain to me why you aren't scum that first made a big lie that had to be an accusation against pierre, and are now enjoying how the town seems to go to it's first mislynch.

(and since I have been in trouble for accusations like this: I don't know it will be a mislynch, I assume alv is scum, and then it follows.[/disclaimer])

[stands2reason]

Well, that's right actually. My mistake, though I'm learning everyday.

Anyway, we really can't get anyone really for a scumlynch, seeing as no one has shown any major tells as of yet. I guess I should

Unvote

for stands hasn't had any huge traits. I think we need to hang back until we have someone, but we have to try as much as possible to avoid a mislynch. In the next week, I'm sure someone's gonna crack. But if that's not the case, we need another idea.

Scummy vote for me, followed by an unvote to cover yourself lest you look suspicious. Though that is by no means unique to you.

Nevertheless, failing to explain yourself, and then you turn that unvote into pushing the scum mantra of let's be real careful and make sure not to lynch anyone by accident.

FOS Pierre

[SemanticError]

Well, that's right actually. My mistake, though I'm learning everyday.

Anyway, we really can't get anyone really for a scumlynch, seeing as no one has shown any major tells as of yet. I guess I should

Unvote

for stands hasn't had any huge traits. I think we need to hang back until we have someone, but we have to try as much as possible to avoid a mislynch. In the next week, I'm sure someone's gonna crack. But if that's not the case, we need another idea.

This isn't a defense at all. Your unwillingness to defend yourself makes me think you ARE scummy. That is a major tell.

As others have said, defending yourself is not scummy. In fact, it is the expected response to being accused or sought after.

And your "always thought" comment in your EBWOP implies to me you aren't exactly new to this.

Throw this in with mykonian's statements, and we've got a wee bit of hypocrisy in our midst.

[PorkchopExpress]

@S2R: Active lurking is something a little different. Yes, you are posting every time you visit (or at least you’re posting frequently enough to remain active) but your posts are totally uninformative one-liners. You vaguely refer to other people’s points but provide no analysis, reasoning or indeed anything beyond a curtly worded sense of where you gut is at. That is active lurking.

Pierre’s 109: Is a pretty wilful misinterpretation of what Alvarian is talking about.
And how does hanging back, cause people to crack? Surely, we want pressure but we just don’t want finality in voting yet? A few townie points go to Alv for calling Pierre on inconsistently playing the newbie card.

I’m finding the way that Myk is engaging with Pierre to be very odd on a gut level. Myk seems to be very quick to call newb on, or turn around, some of the issues that have been sent Pierre’s way.
Here Myk is right at the brink of WIFOM, if not already plunging do the chilly depths of “but if’s”.
The last part of this postseems to contradict the advice that he was giving to AS in post 103.

Again, townies don't care. If the other is scum, and you can make that likely for the rest, you vote him.

This advice applies far beyond the specific situation with AS. To re-use it in Pierre’s situation: make the case that the guy is scum, and it’ll stand on its own merits or not. Field any criticisms and questions as they come up. Hmm, I’m about to head out the door but I’m going to give him a reread.

@AS: Would I be able to get your read of Mykonian?

[Einlanzers]

I know it wasn't asked of me, but I feel that Mykonian is doing a pretty good job of scumhunting. He seems quite towny to me.

[mykonian]

Finally guys, you are looking at other players again. I really have to warn you for tunnenvision. In this game, you can believe someone to be scum, and you will see more and more prove of that. While you still might be wrong.

I don't know if I am right with pierre, or not, but I believe S2R to be more obviously scummy, and Alv still can't explain why he had to fake a case on Pierre, something that is as antitown as it gets. We have had quite some posts about pierre now, it is also a good idea to see what people said: this is the first serious thing that happened in this game, and people did show how they play, and possibly if they are scum.

[swimmer4lyfe]

Here's what I see so far:

Alv does need to post an explanation to his post
S2R needs to post more
Pierre needs to defend himself

I'm beginning to relook my case over Pierre. I don't think english is his first language. The more Pierre posts, the more I think he's scum, but there's another factor I'm looking at: mykonian.

Mykonian has been using some hefty WIFOM for defending Pierre, and doing it pretty staunchly. I don't see a townie doing this. There's really no reason to defend Pierre so fiercely unless A) you're scum and know he's townie or B) you're scum and he's your scum buddy.

I'm leaning more toward A at this point, because I don't see mykonian defending a scum buddy like this with so much support for Pierre's lynch.

I'm still in support of lynching Pierre but I'm beginning to think mykonian would be a better choice

[mykonian]

C) disagree with the lynch, and doesn't want this game to run away. Some calmth is good, see previous post. I think I have achieved what I wanted. I disagree with his lynch, since I couldn't see his actions as done by scum, I was fierce because I felt the whole town is moving towards his lynch.

With less then a week to go, we have to decide who we want to lynch, based on the information we got. I am a fan of a S2R lynch, for the vote unvote thingy, and the weak bandwagon FoS he just placed. a "yeah, I think him scummy too"-FoS.

Recently, AS has really improved. He is in my townie list, or close to that.

and hey, swimmer, I am the second person you talk about. Please, make a case Because we can all tunnel on one, and hope he breaks. Try me.

[Pierre Sickle]

Well, that's right actually. My mistake, though I'm learning everyday.

Anyway, we really can't get anyone really for a scumlynch, seeing as no one has shown any major tells as of yet. I guess I should

Unvote

for stands hasn't had any huge traits. I think we need to hang back until we have someone, but we have to try as much as possible to avoid a mislynch. In the next week, I'm sure someone's gonna crack. But if that's not the case, we need another idea.

Scummy vote for me, followed by an unvote to cover yourself lest you look suspicious. Though that is by no means unique to you.

Nevertheless, failing to explain yourself, and then you turn that unvote into pushing the scum mantra of let's be real careful and make sure not to lynch anyone by accident.

FOS Pierre

I UNVOTED you. I never voted you in the same post. I explained my unvote and I don't find giving the town some precautions to work with scummy in my book.

[Pierre Sickle]

EBWOP: I just realized, your actually in suspicion of me for actually UNVOTING you. I actually regret removing my vote now, seeing as you just keep on trying to point me out. Trying to look like a thorough scum hunter, after having my suspicions on you, then trying to pointlessly take pokes at me even further by not suspecting you? Looks like your trying to get me out early, don't it?

But I must admit I haven't looked at many other people, so I'm trying to be decent. Right now, I'm suspecting

[swimmer4lyfe]

C) disagree with the lynch, and doesn't want this game to run away. Some calmth is good, see previous post. I think I have achieved what I wanted. I disagree with his lynch, since I couldn't see his actions as done by scum, I was fierce because I felt the whole town is moving towards his lynch.

With less then a week to go, we have to decide who we want to lynch, based on the information we got. I am a fan of a S2R lynch, for the vote unvote thingy, and the weak bandwagon FoS he just placed. a "yeah, I think him scummy too"-FoS.

Recently, AS has really improved. He is in my townie list, or close to that.

and hey, swimmer, I am the second person you talk about. Please, make a case Because we can all tunnel on one, and hope he breaks. Try me.

I haven't read your PH it was more just a gut feeling. I do have to say though I'm down with a stands2reason lynch as well. I didn't like his initial posting at all and it was definitely something scum would do.

I still stand by my case on Pierre though and I really don't want to confuse the town on multiple people up for lynch and would just rather lynch Pierre day 1 and go from there.

[iamausername]

-=Spinach has been prodded=-

[SemanticError]

EBWOP: I just realized, your actually in suspicion of me for actually UNVOTING you. I actually regret removing my vote now, seeing as you just keep on trying to point me out. Trying to look like a thorough scum hunter, after having my suspicions on you, then trying to pointlessly take pokes at me even further by not suspecting you? Looks like your trying to get me out early, don't it?

But I must admit I haven't looked at many other people, so I'm trying to be decent. Right now, I'm suspecting

Pierre, he's criticizing you for what everyone else is: jumping around with votes and distraction tactics. Which you've just done again, with an OMGUS statement. Not as strong as vote, I'll admit, but it feels like once again you're deflecting.

Instead of jumping at whoever looks at you, why don't address some of the questions that have been raised? For example:

-Just how inexperienced are you?
-Your thoughts on mykonian's defense of you?
-And one question I'd like to ask:

But I must admit I haven't looked at many other people, so I'm trying to be decent. Right now, I'm suspecting

How do you propose to play this game without analyzing people's moves?

[stands2reason]

@S2R: Active lurking is something a little different. Yes, you are posting every time you visit (or at least you’re posting frequently enough to remain active) but your posts are totally uninformative one-liners.

OK, so I haven't been putting enough original thought into the game. I'll try to look back over the thread, including some of the stuff I appeared to have missed, and give some input.

[stands2reason]

OK, now for some original thought. I actually read over the whole thread and took notes.


Let's see all the interesting stuff I've observed:

p7 - myk votes for Pierre. Odd. Not the only random joke vote, but still.

p15 Pierre jumps on AS for joke pseudo-roleclaim. p21, myk does the same.

p47 is gold. Pierre says AS is misleading us, but he doesn't want to start a bandwagon, and then does just that. PE's request of an explanation to pierre's statement leads to Pierre claiming that PE is scum.

p72 - myk votes for Spinach, claims he made a contradiction, but doesn't explain or quote

p81 Pierre calls swimmer scummy for pointing out contradictions and voting pattern

p88 Talk about WTF. This one is worth quoting

Still, nothing smells fishy. So

unvote

for now, a few good posts by AntiSemantic makes me think he's not so suspicious, but rather willing to help. But we DO need to get rid someone for informational purposes.

Vote: stands2reason

Now I think he's just trying to quickly get someone off and that with not posting at all. It's either he's really bad scum, trying to quickly get off with a post then hide.

Then, we can say he's a cop who has nothing behind a vote and just waits.

OR

We can say he's just a really bad player, not joining in and participating. So reasons, reasons, reasons, really.

But yeah, he can just be a huge newbie.

No one in particular is suspicious, and I might be a cop or town, so I should be lynched.

p103 myk implies AS might be scum based on the same joke pseudo-romeclaim from the beginning of the game. then he agrees with pierre's p88's epically crappy line of argument, then tries to make it sound like I'm scum pretending to be a cop and failing. Bad rationalization

p104 myk's scumlist includes me (see p88 and p103), PE (see p47), swimmer, who has consistently done a good job deconstructing pierre's bad arguments, and AS.

p110 myk comes in to defend Pierre yet again. Pierre's retaliation vote/scumclaim on PE (see p47) p

roves that he's just paranoid and can't possibly be scum!

p111 myk we want a lynch, period (as I understand it)

p125 - just odd.

OK.

@swimmer: paranoid people don't know what is going on, scum does know. That is the reasoning. So scum would never be paranoid if someone tries to convince them.

AS has a great point pierre. That post doesn't help you a bit, and if you want to win, be it before or after your death, you want to hunt for scum.

p127 pierre unvotes on me after his voting style is called out

p139 myk says I'm obviously scummy...apparently for no particular reason.

[Charnel]

one thing I want to say before I let others react: I see a lot of notes, and little analysis. Further, he is quite singleminded, going only after Pierre, and me. TBH, I don't see a towny here, more scum who goes after the people that are most in the spotlights. A bit opportunistic.

Looking for tells and stuff is fine, really. Like the contradictions spinach was looking for. But you must question yourself what makes those tells worth looking for: why would scum do them more then town,

what is their motivation?

. If you can find a point, or a behaviour of a player, that clearly shows their motivation isn't to find scum, you might very well have scum in your hands.

to the point of the contradiction spinach found, there were two possibilities. Or it was there accidentaly, and it would be a null-tell, or it was put there on purpose, since there was a scum motivation for doing it. I couldn't find, and spinach didn't give, that this was doing any good for scum. Therefor, the "tell" of a contradiction was worthless there.

Using the same on S2R, I see a player that is going with the flow, that brought little analysis, and when he was asked to do so, concentrated on the two people that were most in the spotlights anyway. Is this a town hunting for scum, or is this scum trying to look town, and waiting for the mislynch?

I am going over S2R's post later, maybe tomorrow, maybe sunday.