Newbie 848 - The Bunny Mafia Family - over finally!

[Nachomamma8]

I agree with Michel's reasoning completely as far as The Bean Burrito goes. He's made a grand total of 15 posts, and throughout the course of these posts, he has not had a SINGLE suspect (with the exception of StarOfTheShow, whom he unvoted as soon as she joined the game). He hasn't required any prods until recently, and the majority of his posts have been "Gone, not gone, confused, don't have an opinion". He hasn't been a major asset to the town, and he hasn't done so much as to express his opinions on ANYTHING. So, a couple questions:


1) Is the RVS a good judge of a person's scumminess or not? In case you haven't been reading, it is a point MichelSableheart and I disagree on. Who do you agree with? Why?
2) Foil and Michel both take different stances on Bronco's scumminess. Michel views him as a newer player, foil sees him as scum pushing for the mislynch. Who do you agree with? Why?
3) Who's the scummiest player right now? Why?

[Incognito]

Vote Count #8 of Day 1

Sposh (2) <-~ Nachomamma8, Tehstefan
Jase (1) <-~ broncofaninmd
Nachomamma8 (2) <-~ Jase, Haylen
broncofaninmd (2) <-~ Sposh, foilist13
TheBeanBurrito (1) <-~ MichelSableheart

Not voting (1) <-~ TheBeanBurrito

With 9 alive, 5 will do it.

Tuesday, October 20th at 6 P.M. EDT.

[Tehstefan]

@michel, I unvoted him because to me, he explained why he found Jase scummy, and while it was a bit awkward at first, it made sense enough. He was uneasy about his reactions, and what he was saying, and felt he was deceiving the town. Even if I disagree with his reasoning, it seemed to me a perfectly good reason to vote him, I would do the same if I considered him trying to play with the town, and manipulate the vote. Hence, my unvote.

[MichelSableheart]

@Bronco: I want to make sure that I'm understanding you correctly. Is the following a correct representation of your reasoning at the time?

"In post #80, Jase was suspicious of Nachomamma because Nachomamma voted him for not answering questions".

"In post #85, Jase tried to change that to being suspicious of Nachomamma because Nachomamma didn't wait for a reply before voting."

"Jase is trying to change his claims based on the responses he gets. This is scummy."

---

@Michel: I missed his question at the beginning, but I certainly articulated the answer to it: [SNIP quote]

I stand corrected. Apologies.

---
I consider the opinion "RVS is good" antitown because, even though Random Voting is an acceptable way to get the game started, I believe it is far from the ideal way to start a game. Besides, for a lot of people, the RVS seems to mean a stage in the game where you can act like you want, without being concerned how your actions are going to help find scum.

---
On game relevant questions being more helpful to scum: I believe we already had this discussion. It is my belief that by asking questions on, for example, lurking, you can identify

• who are defending the antitown standpoints, and are therefore more likely scum, and
• educate all players that lurking is bad for town. This means that you won't catch lurking scum, but it also means that all players are very aware they shouldn't lurk, avoiding mislynches on lurking town and leading to a more active game where it is easier to find the scum.

---
Nachomamma, I may be reading you wrong. Are you claiming that your antitown posts from post #166 and onwards were intended to see if I would agree with them? When just 5 posts before that, post #161, you noticed that I wasn't very active at the time? Or am I mistaken in what your saying? If so, what did you intend to achieve with your behaviour in those posts?

---
On you daring us to lynch you: it seems bad play regardless of your alignement. If you are pro-town, you should be more interested in getting a lynch on someone you don't know the alignement of rather then someone who you know for certain is a mislynch. And if you're scum, you want to get a lynch on someone who isn't of your alignement too. I admit, being lynched is slightly less worse for town then for scum, but you as scum would be aware of that. Overall, you daring us to lynch you doesn't tell me much about your alignement.

---
@Tsf: seems a reasonable reasoning.

[Jase]

Yes, I just dared you to lynch me. How does everyone feel about this?

It makes me feel like you're being a little rediculous. I'm not sure if you're serious or not.

[TheBeanBurrito]

@Michel's post 192.
I'm kinda busy between Real life, and other games. On top of that, you guys are just crazy with all of your 'read' stuff. I like to just watch, and decide (lurking, you call it. I call it assessing the situation) I have only played this game once before, and the way it was done was so completely different that I am a bit overwhelmed with how you guys do stuff here. Only Teh and I have not completed a game here, which puts us at a disadvantage. You all are doing wonderfully at making each other seem scummy. You all are also good at asking the questions I would have asked. I have nothing else to add to that. I'm reading everything posted, and I completely agree that I'm not being as helpful as everyone else. It's not something that I could help. Heck, if lynching me helps you guys along then do it.

Replaced by Netopalis. - Incog-Mod

[foilist13]

Unvote Vote:Nachomamma8

Yes, I just dared you to lynch me. How does everyone feel about this?

Sounds fine to me.

Now here are all the reasons why what you just did was completely anti-town.

1. Despite the fact that the town outnumber the scum, we cannot afford throwing away one of our players the first day because he decided to be a martyr. If we lynch you and you flip town, thats two town dead and NO information to go on. You realize how easy it would be, and probably will be for scum to just bandwagon you right now and jump into the second day without any serious evidence against them? As scum, assuming you thought this out, you could just pull a stunt like that, we wouldn't lynch you because it was stupid, and then you could point to it later when you get into trouble.

2. Good logic vs. Bad logic, what a treat.

Good logic:

"The RVS is good." ~ The RVS is the birth of the game of mafia in itself. It is extremely important to the game itself, especially when it starts to become later in the game. Day 1 is the scum's easiest time at getting a mislynch, and it is also the time when newbie scum are first trying out their wings; thus, it is often an extremely effective tool in catching scum. And despite popular belief, I don't view the RVS as having ended when the first accusation is made; it's still everyone groping around in the dark. The RVS has ended when the first valid accusation is made, and people become confident that they have singled out a scum member.

I will concede that, oh, lets say 1 in 60 successful lynches result from the RVS. In the RVS people can throw out whatever bullshit they want. "Vote: So and So for wrongful use of satire." So could you tell me what this tells you? Really you must be brilliant.

"Game-relevant questions are good for scum." ~ Even if you aren't the one who initiated the change in procedure, the scum end up benefitting more from the information than the town does. If you can come up with some game-relevant questions to dispute that fact, then be my guest.

Now what the fuck have you been smoking? How in the bloody world do you expect to catch scum without relevant information? Looking at the RVS? You have fun with that.

Or maybe you meant that the town benefit, but the scum benefit

more.

Brilliant deduction. Now tell me, as scum, what do you get from game relevant questions? Opportunity for bandwagoning or lurking? The scum don't need to guide the town, they only need to evade the town. So long as you don't get lynched, you don't care. Content helps to lead the town to scum, and makes it more difficult for the scum to hide. The scum get chances to jump on bandwagons for foolish town players who made mistakes too grievous to defend themselves from and aren't really benefitting the town anyway. Now tell me again, how does this benefit the scum exactly?

Bad logic:

"Townie players should appear scummy." ~ Obviously false. Townies should act as pro-town as possible to give MORE information on their deaths. After all, it's much easier to pinpoint a scum who makes a case against a pro-town player than vice-versa. When you act pro-town, you take away the scum's choices for who to try to get a mislynch on.

So... this is a bad thing? I fail to see your reasoning here. If all the town players play pro town, the scum have no choice but to play as town as possible. Only they or unintelligent or careless town will make a mistake which will eventually lead to a lynch. The most pro-town players will probably be night killed, but if they aren't, and everyone seems pro-town, then it is a fair bet that they are scum. There are all sorts of ways to play a game like this that are much easier than trying to sift through all the other town player's "Good Logic."

However, acting excessively scummy is NOT a bad town strategy, but expect to be lynched if you do try it. If you haven't read any Mastin games, I'd highly suggest doing so. He usually is a HORRIBLE scum, but quite a good townie. Everyone gloms onto him, and scum see the opportunity for the mislynch to happen. Townies normally reanalyze people's interactions with him, and their questions put scum in quite the tight position, who normally don't think of valid reasons to get someone lynched.

So we should all be martyrs and when we've all died we'll see for sure who is scum? Or what, we should all be scummy so that we don't get night killed? So there is no way that town players acting scummy would lead to scum players who slip to get by? But no, if

they

slipped we would all know, right?

Sposh: I've run out of time for the moment, but if you'd still like me to comment on you I will as soon as I can.

[foilist13]

Bean Burrito, based on that post you have no business even playing this game. The intrigue and analysis is what the game is about. If you like reading and assessing, gee I don't know, read the games instead of playing them? You are on a TEAM here. This game is not about you. Move yourself and post some analysis, or I can assure you that I and others will push for lynching you, which I suppose means we all get what we really want, i.e. for you to watch rather than play, since you apparently aren't interested in playing anyway.

If you think what I'm saying is unreasonable, then go replace out and find something else to do.

[MichelSableheart]

If you think what I'm saying is unreasonable, then go replace out and find something else to do.

I have to disagree with this. Replacing out very seriously hurts the game, and shouldn't be done unless there is no way you can continue playing. That fact that foilist believes TBB's playstyle is bad play is definately NOT a reason for TBB to replace out.

---
That being said...

@Michel's post 192.
I'm kinda busy between Real life, and other games. On top of that, you guys are just crazy with all of your 'read' stuff. I like to just watch, and decide (lurking, you call it. I call it assessing the situation) I have only played this game once before, and the way it was done was so completely different that I am a bit overwhelmed with how you guys do stuff here. Only Teh and I have not completed a game here, which puts us at a disadvantage. You all are doing wonderfully at making each other seem scummy. You all are also good at asking the questions I would have asked. I have nothing else to add to that. I'm reading everything posted, and I completely agree that I'm not being as helpful as everyone else. It's not something that I could help. Heck, if lynching me helps you guys along then do it.

There is a very serious problem for us if you only watch, and never seriously comment though. If you don't say anything, it becomes virtually impossible for the other players to determine your alignement. We can't use what you say to determine if you are town or mafia. We can't look at your voting pattern, because you almost never vote.

Assume you are pro-town for a moment. Besides you, there are 6 other players in the game who share your alignement. Of the seven pro-town players, 5 need to be voting for the same mafiamember to lynch him. If those other players can't determine your alignement, that is one more player who is potentially mafia for them. Which means a mislynch becomes much more likely.

If you are scum, on the other hand, it is an advantage for you if other players have trouble determining your alignement, If you don't make any scumtells, it's far less likely that you'll be lynched.

I can't imagine you agree with everything everybody has said thus far. Even if you won't be as helpful as others, please try to think for yourself. If two players disagree on something, tell us with who you agree, and why. If someone is making a case you find very convincing, let us know.

And please try to answer questions directed to you. Nachomamma's #200 contains a number of them.

You are not breaking any game rules, but you are behaving in a way that is very advantegeous to scum. Which makes me believe you are likely scum, which is why I'm currently voting you.

[Tehstefan]

I must apologize for this, but I shall be replacing out of this. Band is kicking into high gear, and I can't devote the time necessary to really play a good game. So, I have to drop out.

Replaced by Bwian. - Incog-Mod

[Nachomamma8]

Nachomamma, I may be reading you wrong. Are you claiming that your antitown posts from post #166 and onwards were intended to see if I would agree with them? When just 5 posts before that, post #161, you noticed that I wasn't very active at the time? Or am I mistaken in what your saying? If so, what did you intend to achieve with your behaviour in those posts?

---
On you daring us to lynch you: it seems bad play regardless of your alignement. If you are pro-town, you should be more interested in getting a lynch on someone you don't know the alignement of rather then someone who you know for certain is a mislynch. And if you're scum, you want to get a lynch on someone who isn't of your alignement too. I admit, being lynched is slightly less worse for town then for scum, but you as scum would be aware of that. Overall, you daring us to lynch you doesn't tell me much about your alignement.

Where are you getting anti-town posts from #166 on? I'm talking about antitown posts from the very beginning. And I, being a player who has played extremely scummy, don't think that I should be around in LyLo if everyone still believes that I'm that scummy because it will make the scum's job FAR too easy in LyLo. As for the game related discussion, we'll just have to disagree. I understand your points; they are valid. I simply don't agree with them...

If you're looking to see what I was to achieve in my earlier posts, read my long post again.

[Nachomamma8]

Foilist, please think about the way you sound for a moment. I'll answer your questions tomorrow.

[foilist13]

I am well aware of the way i sound. I wrote in that voice intentionally to spark a response. If I was just "Hey, you know I don't think that was very pro-town of you," I wouldn't have caught your attention nearly so much, now would I?

[Incognito]

Searching for a Tehstefan replacement.

Also, Haylen has been prodded.

[Incognito]

Bwian replaces Tehstefan effective immediately. Deadline will still remain intact.

[Incognito]

broncofaninmd and Sposh have been prodded.

Note: It seems like Moving Day really

is

happening this weekend, so I will likely be extending the deadline by X¹ days once the server is re-established.

_{¹X = the number of days the site goes down during the move.}

[Bwian]

I just came home after playing mafia face to face. It was the first time for me playing mafia at all. We played 3 sets of which I sadly won 0. First two games I was lynched early. In the last game I took on the role of a trigger happy vigilant and despite that 2 out of 4 killed because of me turned out to be mafia the third scum won the game.

With this in mind vengeance is a very high priority for me right now. But first I need to get some sleep.

[Haylen]

Hi. I have a massive migrane. I just wanna sleep but i have to work an 8 hr shift. On my own. My work people are stupid. I will post after i returned from that and have probably had a nap...

[Bwian]

As a townie, you don't want to be too honest or else you set yourself up to be NKed the first day; you always want that iffy aspect around you. On the other hand, you don't want to lie enough to get yourself lynched. As a townie, it's all about finding that balance.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the mafia already know your alignment.

The default alignment is being town. Usually even mafia pretend being townspeople. Why don't you want to appear as a townie? Having an iffy aspect and telling lies only makes it harder for the town. If we later find out that you've been telling lies (and that it wasn't under pressure to protect a town aligned special role) we'll find that suspicious and you'll be up for a lynch. Right or wrong we might as well do it now.

The mafia won't kill people solely for being honest. Because we expect every townie to be and I don't see the mafia killing their own at night. Putting myself into how the mafia would think I would be pleased if I had the luxury of keeping dishonest townies alive along with the dishonest scum. This might be that I'm new to this game but I don't see why people who have nothing to hide would be telling lies and playing dishonest.

Those who will be at risc at night is those that are a threat to the mafia. If anything the mafia will spare those who might do the mob a favour getting themself lynched.

Vote Nachomamma

[MichelSableheart]

Where are you getting anti-town posts from #166 on? I'm talking about antitown posts from the very beginning. And I, being a player who has played extremely scummy, don't think that I should be around in LyLo if everyone still believes that I'm that scummy because it will make the scum's job FAR too easy in LyLo. As for the game related discussion, we'll just have to disagree. I understand your points; they are valid. I simply don't agree with them...

I was talking about your antitown stances in general. Examples I mentioned included "the point of anything you say should be to misrepresent it" (free interpretation of post #166) and "town players should behave scummy" (free interpretation of #171 and #184). Your defense read that you were taking antitown stances in order to see if I would agree with you. I wanted to know if that was also the case for the antitown stances in the posts after post #166. And if that wasn't the reason for you taking those positions, I wanted to know why you took them.

---
The deadline is next tuesday. And if there isn't a majority at that point in time, there will be no lynch. Because of this, I am willing to switch to Nachomamma if it guarantees a lynch, but I would prefer to lynch TheBeanBurrito today.

@everyone: please make sure you are voting someone you actually want lynched.

[Sposh]

I'm still here, guys!!

Sorry, been working at my new job all weekend! I see Nacho has some heat on him... I still prefer a Bronco lynch, but as Michel said above, I'd prefer a Nacho lynch over a no lynch.

[Jase]

Unvote

Vote: TheBeanBurrito

He's had plenty of time to ask for replacement and he still hasn't contributed.

[Nachomamma8]

As a townie, you don't want to be too honest or else you set yourself up to be NKed the first day; you always want that iffy aspect around you. On the other hand, you don't want to lie enough to get yourself lynched. As a townie, it's all about finding that balance.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the mafia already know your alignment.

The default alignment is being town. Usually even mafia pretend being townspeople. Why don't you want to appear as a townie? Having an iffy aspect and telling lies only makes it harder for the town. If we later find out that you've been telling lies (and that it wasn't under pressure to protect a town aligned special role) we'll find that suspicious and you'll be up for a lynch. Right or wrong we might as well do it now.

The mafia won't kill people solely for being honest. Because we expect every townie to be and I don't see the mafia killing their own at night. Putting myself into how the mafia would think I would be pleased if I had the luxury of keeping dishonest townies alive along with the dishonest scum. This might be that I'm new to this game but I don't see why people who have nothing to hide would be telling lies and playing dishonest.

Those who will be at risc at night is those that are a threat to the mafia. If anything the mafia will spare those who might do the mob a favour getting themself lynched.

Vote Nachomamma

Please read the entire game, even though it's a bit long. I have a fairly long post describing the fun little twist of this game.

[Nachomamma8]

Where are you getting anti-town posts from #166 on? I'm talking about antitown posts from the very beginning. And I, being a player who has played extremely scummy, don't think that I should be around in LyLo if everyone still believes that I'm that scummy because it will make the scum's job FAR too easy in LyLo. As for the game related discussion, we'll just have to disagree. I understand your points; they are valid. I simply don't agree with them...

I was talking about your antitown stances in general. Examples I mentioned included "the point of anything you say should be to misrepresent it" (free interpretation of post #166) and "town players should behave scummy" (free interpretation of #171 and #184). Your defense read that you were taking antitown stances in order to see if I would agree with you. I wanted to know if that was also the case for the antitown stances in the posts after post #166. And if that wasn't the reason for you taking those positions, I wanted to know why you took them.

---
The deadline is next tuesday. And if there isn't a majority at that point in time, there will be no lynch. Because of this, I am willing to switch to Nachomamma if it guarantees a lynch, but I would prefer to lynch TheBeanBurrito today.

@everyone: please make sure you are voting someone you actually want lynched.

All of my anti-town positions take up until my long post were for that very reason.

And,

Unvote, Vote: TheBeanBurrito

. He hasn't really said or done anything beneficial or interesting, town or otherwise.

[Incognito]

Bumping a vote count.