Mini 856 - Star Control: Zeta Sextantis - Over

[Kast]

@Rising-
I think this illustrates my position pretty clearly. Below I include a response that I wrote up earlier today but was interrupted mid post and did not finish. Feel free to read and respond to that, but my main point is contained directly below.

He says that if a person does something to protect himself from a certain action, you should suspect that person of wanting to commit that exact same action to you.

Your analogy oversimplifies and does not include critical issues:
--Action L harms the target.
--When a player, P_i, does Action M to another player, P_j, P_i allows P_j to do Action L.
--When a player, P_k, does Action N, P_k is protected against Action L and allows Action M to be done to P_k.
-Player A suspects that some unknown Player B is trying to do Action L.
-Player C asks Player A to do Action M, and claims he has reason to believe some unknown Player B is trying to do Action L.
-Player D also asks Player A to do Action M, and claims he has reason to believe some unknown Player B is trying to do Action L.

The existence of multiple players warning that someone is trying to do Action L makes it more likely that someone is trying to do Action L.

The fact that Player C (or D) provided a warning has no bearing on the likelihood that Player C (or D) is Player B (neither a reason to suspect nor a reason to not suspect). HOWEVER, the increase in likelihood that there is a Player B makes doing Action M less desirable (when done with any player who is not confirmed as NOT Player B).

Also, the point under discussion is not the sole factor to consider when deciding to rescue someone. It is a factor which disinclines townies in general from rescuing another player. Other factors include but are not limited to:
-Likelihood that the player is a townie
-Other night actions that can be taken
-Private information (and it's repercussions)
-Sigma's claimed cop ability

@LL-

If people think there are going to be 5 red ships, as seems to be the case,

In general, I don't see why any townie has any reason to expect 5 red ships (or really any number of red ships beyond 3). The existence of 3 confirmed red ships plus two plausibly claimed red ships makes it reasonable to believe there are at least 5 red ships.

The existence of a ship-affiliation-cop (or equivalent) argues either a small number of townie ship-millers, or some powerful pro-town game mechanic to balance out mod-provided disinformation. Barring public revelation of such a mechanic, I am inclined to believe that there are probably a small number (ie 2) ship-millers.

@Rising/Excedrin/Porkens-
Please chime in thoughts on Dry-Fit and refresh why you are voting for RC. If the object is to lynch RC, why choose to lynch RC instead of let him be modkilled?

@Mod-

If RC waits until deadline then posts something like "I am here", does he still get mod-killed? Or to be more specific, is the mod-kill for lurking enforced to the letter or to the spirit?

It would be unfortunate if RC waited until deadline then posted content-less fluff to avoid both defending himself and getting modkilled. Also unfortunately, such behavior would be entirely in line with what everyone was willing to excuse on D1.

@Dry-Fit-
Please post something. The lurking isn't helping town.

----------------------------
@Rising's first post-
Good post overall. First point is valid, second point is nonsense.

Agreed that if a townie knows that Sigma is town they should rescue Sigma. If they know that Porkens is town, then they should rescue Porkens. In that sense, then agreed that:
IF A AND B, THEN NOT D.

I stated this in my explanations of the arguments. However, technically you are correct that the conditional itself should include the clarifications that I added as explanations. I should have been more rigorous in my definitions.

As a correction, substitute A and B with E and F, which are actually relevant and incorporate my explanations. D should not need to be expanded upon, but for sake of completeness, you can change D to G.
E = Porkens claims to be town with a scum ship
F = Sigma claims to be town with a scum ship
G = Town should be less inclined to rescue jettisoned players whose affiliation is unknown

The existence of a player claiming he has a ship scum would want to get on increases the likelihood of (C). The existence of multiple players claiming the same makes (C) even more probable. E and F are not required for C to be true.

Your second point is nonsense. IF it is probable that scum want to get aboard town ships, THEN Town should not rescue. This is true regardless of your addendum. Also, your hypothetical situation is more likely than a similar hypothetical where the scum player begins on a non-scum ship. Beginning on a scum ship provides the scum player with an excuse for jettisoning.

I agree that scum only being able to rely on jettisoning and being rescued by the correct town player is an unlikely game mechanism. If scum have a pro-scum game mechanic that requires getting aboard another player's ship, I think it is more likely to be something that works regardless of who picks them up. If they have to give up a red ship in order to achieve this mechanism, it would have to be very powerful to balance the information that town gains from seeing the mod confirmed red ship.

Given the existence of a player who knew the color of another player's ship, the existence of claimed townies on scum ships seems more likely a miller mechanic than a hidden power-up (although it could certainly be both).

@Rising's second post-
False analogy. Your "claimed circumstances" are wrong and you also make a couple flawed assumptions.
-Two players want to get on other players ships.
-Both of those players had confirmed scum ships.
-One of those players explicitly feared scum getting aboard his ship.
-The other player implied a similar reason, but soon after claimed a game mechanic that requires getting on another player's ship (and one that would disincline scum).

You assume that A and B are required in order for C to be true. As Excedrin mentioned, the existence of both jettison and rescue game mechanics suggests interactions between players on the same ship. This alone is reason to consider C.

[Papa Zito]

Your analogy oversimplifies and does not include critical issues:
--Action L harms the target.
--When a player, P_i, does Action M to another player, P_j, P_i allows P_j to do Action L.
--When a player, P_k, does Action N, P_k is protected against Action L and allows Action M to be done to P_k.
-Player A suspects that some unknown Player B is trying to do Action L.
-Player C asks Player A to do Action M, and claims he has reason to believe some unknown Player B is trying to do Action L.
-Player D also asks Player A to do Action M, and claims he has reason to believe some unknown Player B is trying to do Action L.

Kast.

Buddy.

Hey, I like you. You contribute a lot, you argue stuff without getting abrasive. It's great. But man, when you do that ^^^ my eyes immediately glaze over and I'm not able to absorb what you're saying. It's not lack of trying either, honest injun, but I'm just way too tired to parse a bunch of variables. If you could simplify this kind of stuff so that a simple mind can figure it out easier, that'd be appreciated.

[Porkens]

Kast;

My interpretation of the BaM rule in question here is that RC would NOT be modkilled if we lynched Dry-Fit before the deadline (say outside of 12-24 hours before the DL). So I don't want to rely on the modkill to nail the lurker.

Now, this all depends on if/how Spy answers the question you asked, tho. Basically, I want RC dead. if he gets modkilled, that's fantastic, but if not, I feel a strong need to lynch him.

[Excedrin]

It seems unlikely that Dry-fit would claim as he did if he was scum. Based on flavor, I wouldn't be surprised if he has a non-Alliance win condition or if his win condition changes based on day or some game event. That, combined with his inactivity on day 2 makes him an OK 2nd choice.

That said, I want Rosso Carne lynched far more than I want anyone else lynched. If ending the day before deadline results in Dry-fit lynch and Rosso Carne modkill, I'd be OK with switching to Dry-fit.

Rising, what do you think about Dry-fit today? Is he a good lynch?

Papa Zito, do you still think that Locke Lamora is scum? What about Kmd4390 or Porkens?

[Plum]

I'm pretty sure that ending the day before deadlne would still result in a Rosso modkill should he not post before deadline because the same case occurred in Hard Nights in the City, a BaM game modded by SpyreX (the original BaM, I think, but not certain). Porkens, you were in that game; surely you recall.

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zito, do you still think that Locke Lamora is scum? What about Kmd4390 or Porkens?

Yeah, Locke's still pretty high on my lynch list.

I'm still

reaaaaaally

iffy on Kmd, but I may just be smarting from his day 1 shenanigans. Porkens worries me a bit as an unclaimed race on a Hierarchy ship.

[Kast]

@Zito-
-In an attempt to make it more readable and salvage Rising's analogy:

There are vampires trying to harm us. We suspect that the vampires want to get into our houses in order to harm us. We know the vampires can get into our house if they leave their houses and we invite them into our houses. Porkens claims that he has evidence suggesting that the vampires would like to get into other people's houses, and specifically that they would like to get into his house. Sigma claims similarly. They each left their houses and would like us to let them into our houses.

The fact that there are two distinct players with partially confirmed evidence suggesting that vampires would like to get into other people's houses makes it more likely that the vampires would indeed like to get into other people's houses.

The fact that Porkens and Sigma provided this information has no bearing on whether they are likely to be vampires.

The fact that Porkens and Sigma left their houses in an effort to stop the vampires from getting into their houses with them has no significant bearing on whether they are likely to be vampires.

The fact that Porkens and Sigma are trying to get into other peoples' houses likewise has no significant bearing on whether they are likely to be vampires.

The fact that it is more likely that vampires would like to get into other people's houses is a factor that should disinclines us from letting ANYONE into our houses (including Porkens and Sigma).

-Not exactly simpler, but maybe easier to follow? Next attempt simplifies, but I can imagine it can be taken out of context.

We should be careful about letting unconfirmed players on our ships. If unconfirmed players warn us against letting players on our ships, that does not mean we should be more or less suspicious of those players individually. It does mean we should be more careful about rescuing all unconfirmed players (or any other action that lets players on our ships).

[Papa Zito]

No, that was superb. Superb. /Empire Records

Do you not think sigma's claim, then, makes him less likely to be a vampire?

[Kast]

@Zito-
-Sigma's claim is demonstrable. As such, it greatly increases it's likelihood. Of the 4 red ship players, he is the one I trust the most. Of the two jettisoned players, he is far and away the better choice to save (again from my PoV).

I think it marginally makes him less likely to be a vampire, but it significantly makes him more desirable to let into the house (rescue).

-Another factor I left out previously is, if you are a townie who does not match the race of your own ship, it may be more desirable to rescue Sigma or Porkens (depending if Sigma's claim is compatible with your role PM, or if you suspect Porkens could be compatible).

-Btw, I disagree with Rising's claim that Porkens claim on D1 and decision to jettison on N1 is the logical thing for a townie in his claimed situation to do. Definitely not the claim. The decision to jettison obviously will be slanted by whatever private information his role PM provided him with. From the publicly available information, there doesn't seem to be any necessity for doing it. It sounds more like an excuse to jettison, than a reason for jettisoning.

[Kast]

@RC-
If you are following along while lurking and wondering whether you should post, I strongly suggest posting something prior to any mod clarification. Waiting to see that you would be modkilled, then suddenly jumping in to prevent that isn't very considerate.

[Papa Zito]

Okay, here's what I suggest.

1. I think Rosso is highly likely to be scum.
2. I think Dry-Fit is also highly likely to be scum (Reason: he's the only one so far to claim an actual

character

from the game vs. one of the randomly generated names)

Town's optimal play here is to quicklynch Dry-Fit so that Rosso also gets killed. 2-for-1.

vote: Dry-Fit

[Rising]

Even disregarding sigma's claimed ability, that there's a mechanic for jettisoning and picking up players implies that abilities that interact with shipmates exist.

Yes. That's obvious. I took that for granted directly from the start. I assumed everybody did. Sigma's claim didn't change anything in that regard.

I'm not sure how else a Hierarchy aligned player could get on an Alliance aligned player's ship

Seriously?

Seriously?

You cannot concieve of one single ability that would allow a hierarchy player to get on board an alliance ship? Is this your first themed game?

I think that if you ignore the idea that scum might want to get on Alliance ships then yea, none of what Kast said makes sense

Stop that. That isn't what I said

at all

. I'm not even going to dignify that with an answer. I don't ignore the idea that scum might want to get on alliance ships, but I

am

saying that we don't have any reason yet for suspecting that scum with that kind of ability exists in the game, and that they would have no other means for boarding townie ships than jettisoning their own ships in the hope of being picked up by townplayers. And it's

completely nonsensical

for Kast to spin what sigma and Porkens have said into a reason for us not to pick them up.

[Plum]

Okay, here's what I suggest.

1. I think Rosso is highly likely to be scum.
2. I think Dry-Fit is also highly likely to be scum (Reason: he's the only one so far to claim an actual

character

from the game vs. one of the randomly generated names)

Town's optimal play here is to quicklynch Dry-Fit so that Rosso also gets killed. 2-for-1.

vote: Dry-Fit

Interesting point on #2 which downgrades my "Probable" read on his claim and further makes him the best lynch today. On Porkens and Sigma, I have a stronger Town read on Sigma because - call it WIFOM if you must - it would be an extraordinarily ballsy gambit as scum especially with a buddy dead. Arguments from either of the jettisoned that they should be picked up are basically null unless I missed something important; both Townies and scumbags would want, ideally, to avoid asphyxiation if possible. Neither of them are as good a lynch as Dry-fit.

We want Rosso dead dead dead so let's kill another bird with this stone. Which means uicklynch now plz.

[Porkens]

*shrug*

unvote; Vote: Dry-Fit

Bizzare claim, I don't

think

scum would claim like that but since he has made no effort to clarify...

[Kast]

@Rising-

Yes. That's obvious. I took that for granted directly from the start. I assumed everybody did. Sigma's claim didn't change anything in that regard.

-It's perplexing that you went from a good well thought out post to this. Your comment here is irrelevant. You aren't addressing Excedrin's point that there is valid reason for townies (even those who do not have red ships) to fear scum trying to get aboard their ships. You use a dismissive tone without actually posting anything that warrants one.

And it's completely nonsensical for Kast to spin what sigma and Porkens have said into a reason for us not to pick them up.

False. Please address my actual position instead of attacking your straw man analogy or attacking my simplified argument out of context of the explanations that accompanied it.

Your previous explanation, which was valid despite being out of context, argued only against the simplified argument. It really only said that it is nonsensical to be less willing to pick up Sigma or Porkens IF YOU KNOW THEY ARE TOWNIES. That wasn't the message I was trying to send, but looking at the simplified argument in isolation, it is possible to draw that conclusion from it. In that sense, yes you had a valid point, and it was a mistake for me to post a simplified argument instead of something more rigorous.

-You have ignored the possibility that scum want to get on town ships, and you have dismissed the possibility that scum getting on town ships by being rescued could be harmful to town. Both points are not part of your argument or explanation.

@Quicklynching-
-I don't think this is a good idea right away. I think Dry-Fit should full claim prior to being lynched.
-I agree that it is probably better for town that we lynch soon enough for RC to be modkilled, and RC's play thus far in the game is certainly deserving of a modkill; but I think it is kinda unsportsmanlike generally jerky behavior to intentionally get him modkilled (particularly given that it would ban him from future BaM games).
-I would like to hear clarification from Spyrex on whether a lynch right now would result in RC being modkilled. His previous clarification seems to indicate that yes, RC would be modkilled.

A "full deadline game-day" is just saying that if you chuckleheads powerlynch everyone who didn't post that day wont be killed - if a day goes the full week without a post then they will get killed (at my discretion - if I know of a V/LA, etc then don't count on it).

Even if we decide to quicklynch Dry-Fit right now, it wouldn't be a power lynch. Based on the notes after the recent votecounts, RC hasn't informed Spyrex of any V/LA, so he would be modkillable.

Confirmation would be nice.
-I think it would help if we vote Dry-Fit to L-2 or L-1 and then give him a deadline to claim or die. If his previous posts are a good indication of how he is playing, then he is likely following along and just waiting for someone to post something he can latch on to.

[Kast]

-You have ignored the possibility that scum want to get on town ships

This is inaccurate. You have not ignored it, you have actively DENIED this possibility. You have illogically claimed that scum would want to get on board Porkens and Spyrex ships ONLY. The point behind this still stands, but I figured you would appreciate that being more technically correct.

[Dry-fit]

-I am basically both a vig and a roleblocker(which refutes Kast's belief that I just want to avoid an investigation.)
-Any player in space who I rescue instantly dies.
-My flavor is that I betrayed my race because of a fetish for humans.
-My role does not specifically say I am a miller, but it is hinted at in the flavor.
-I did not make any action last night.

[Porkens]

-I did not make any action last night.

Why not?

I'm pretty sure that ending the day before deadlne would still result in a Rosso modkill should he not post before deadline because the same case occurred in Hard Nights in the City, a BaM game modded by SpyreX (the original BaM, I think, but not certain). Porkens, you were in that game; surely you recall.

I took a look at the timeline of that modkill in Hard Nights and I'm still uncertain. Given the situation of Spy modding and me playing in this game; I'll refrain from further speculation and just let Spy let us know how it is.

[Plum]

-I am basically both a vig and a roleblocker(which refutes Kast's belief that I just want to avoid an investigation.)
-Any player in space who I rescue instantly dies.
-My flavor is that I betrayed my race because of a fetish for humans.
-My role does not specifically say I am a miller, but it is hinted at in the flavor.
-I did not make any action last night.

Yes, I still want you dead. Moreso now.

[SpyreX]

Votecount:

Kmd4390 (0)

Dry-fit (4): Kast, Plum, Papa Zito, Porkens

Locke Lamora (1): Kmd4390
Papa Zito (0)
Excedrin (0)
Plum (0)
Rising (0)
Kast (0):
sigma (0):
Rosso Carne (2): Rising, Excedrin
Porkens (0)

Not Voting (4): Dry-fit, Llocke Lamora, sigma, Rosso Carne,

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch!

Deadline: Saturday, October 17th at 10:30 PM PST

The following player could face modkill at the current rate: Rosso Carne. Prods are sent.

Q&A, Mark II

The idea behind the modkilling for lurking is to help the integrity (and fun) of the game - not to help ANY faction achieve ANY specific goals. The modkill isn't designed to be a tool.

The idea of missing a full game day without notification is simple: I do not think that one whole post in a week is THAT much of a commitment.

That said, you will see a change in my when he will be modkilled at lynch - this will happen at some point on Friday when I post. Now, as was asked, if he shows up and posts even A letter then he will not be modkilled.

It appears as though that rule in the BaM ruleset will be modified after this game to make the spirit and the letter of the law mesh better. I apologize for any issues it cases, but don't assume any lynch will result in a modkill until you've been told specifically by me.

[Dry-fit]

-I did not make any action last night.

Why not?

Because I felt with one scum dead the odds of hitting a town player were high enough that it wouldn't be worth it.

[Porkens]

:headexplode:

The more I think about it, the more explode it gets.

Dry-Fit:

Why

did you claim? The only reason I can think of is that you wanted to protect Sigma.

[Dry-fit]

Unclaimed red ship pretty much means he has to be scum.

I claimed because of this. Obviously I didn't agree that anyone on a red ship must be scum, and knew that if my ship were ever destroyed or I was investigated, I would be lynched. I didn't realize I'd be forced to claim everything about my role.

[Kast]

@Mod-
Thanks for clarification.

@Quicklynch-
I suggest we wait until Friday and then lynch Dry-Fit. This gives RC 2 days to start playing the game.

@Dry-Fit-
-Why did you wait so long to claim?

-Your reason for taking no actions is weak but plausible for not using a kill. It does not hold for choosing to not roleblock.

-How does a roleblocking ability negate the possibility that you claimed to avoid/forestall being investigated?
If you are scum, then there is no reason to believe your claimed ability.

If you are a townie, then you would obviously not roleblock a potential cop. Claiming would be desirable to prevent the cop from wasting an investigation on you and to minimize suspicion if you were found out in future.

-Convenient that your role prevents you from rescuing the claimed cop (and thus having your identity confirmed). What is the flavor for this ability?

It doesn't seem very synergistic to have a miller who cannot be investigated by our claimed cop. Sounds more like a botched fake claim. Having a miller+extremely limited cop was already implausible; having a miller who kills the extremely limited cop in the event that the cop tries to investigate him is even less plausible.

-You previously jumped at my question about race as a justification for keeping your ship. I suspect that you didn't realize that claiming your race matches your ship was equivalent to claiming scum, and instead just saw it as a townie provided excuse to validate your decision to keep your ship.

Regardless, what is the flavor for your vig, roleblock, and kill jettisoned player abilities. Does your previous claim refer to these abilities ie. are you implicitly stating that they are racial abilities?

-Does your statement that you are both a vig AND a roleblocker mean that you can perform two night actions?

@Porkens-
He could have claimed almost immediately after Excedrin revealed that RC was on a red ship.
-It is very plausible that he claimed to forestall a hierarchy ship investigation result.
-By posting to defend Sigma (who players had already indicated they weren't very suspicious of), he also laid grounds for a similar defense of RC. It is plausible that he wanted to defend RC without drawing attention to him, hence posting and explicitly naming Sigma as the reason but completely avoiding mention of RC who was actually the player under scrutiny at that moment.

@Dry-Fit-
-Why did you mention Sigma, but did not say anything about RC?

[Kast]

@Dry-Fit-
-To emphasize the last point, RC had 4 votes at the time AND you answered a direct question whether RC being on a red ship prompted your response. You felt Sigma needed to be defended but didn't have anything to say about RC. Why?

-Btw, if you are scum with RC and KRW as your buddies, I am truly sorry for your misfortune and I suggest you just chalk it up to bad luck and hope for better next time. Also, if you get a similar situation, I suggest bussing heavily.