Mini 856 - Star Control: Zeta Sextantis - Over

[SpyreX]

Quick Note:

16.) Have fun. Remember that everyone playing are actually real people and treat them as such.

We may be trying to kill each other, but keep it civil.

[Kast]

@Porkens-
If you think it is just noise to distract the town, then why do you have to respond? If there is something worth responding to, then it obviously is not just noise. You have also claimed that there were scum tells, so that also could not be just noise.

Your comments in that regards are just avoiding the question by attacking my playstyle instead of addressing the points.

@KMD/Porkens-
-Is it good/bad/neutral to narrow down power townies?
-Is it good/bad/neutral to encourage other players to narrow down power townies?
-Does telling someone to stop talking about something mean that the person asking is trying to get the person being asked to talk about it?
-If a player is being extremely anti-town, should a townie ignore it?

[Porkens]

More crap.

You're out of your mind in this game. I hope the other can see this.

It's clear to me that it

is

just noise. Furthermore it is petulant, pedantic, patronizing, and insulting. However, since it is just noise, I will ignore it from here on out.

I'm going to suggest a voting block, or a lynch order if you prefer the term;

1. Rosso Carne
2. Locke Lamora
3. Dry-fit
4. Kast
--Scum/Town Line--

Kmd4390
Papa Zito
Excedrin
Rising
Plum
sigma
Porkens

I'm confident that at least one scum is in that top 4.

I also need people to weigh in on Kast here. To me, he's spouting pure nonsense. I need to know if it's just me. Him getting away with these walls of text which amount to empty rhetoric is demoralizing to a strong degree. I don't need you to say you agree with me, but I need to know how people feel about him.

unvote; Vote: Rosso Carne

[Excedrin]

I think that it's known how I felt on day 1 about Kast. I think that his posts are "correct" in that they contain logic, explain his point of view, but they're nitpicky/dense etc. So, it's his playstyle. I dislike his style. But he's confirmed town to me.

[Kmd4390]

Kast's actions prev night confirm to me that he's Pkunk. There's something unrelated to Kast's ability that I haven't revealed that doubly confirms that he is Pkunk. If it's possible, I'd rather not reveal it at all.

Basically this is a vote on a confirmed Alliance.

Unvote

. Kast can't be scum unless you are, then.

@KMD-

(I'd do this even as doc just to confuse scum)

By posting this, you are admitting that Porkens post

IS

claiming that he is not doc. He may have been intending to confuse scum. Again, I asked him to STOP COMMENTING on it. Instead he keeps bringing it up and claiming there is nothing wrong.

No, I'm not admitting anything. I'm talking about how I'd personally play in the same situation. Porkens does things that I don't even understand sometimes, so I don't apply it to him. Also, when you attack him for something, of course he is going to comment.

It is possible to comment on a night kill or lack of night kill without claiming that you yourself are not responsible. Porken's CHOSE to do so which is EXTREMELY anti-town.

^Pointing things out like that are even more anti-town, especially if you truly believe it. If it weren't for Excedrin claiming to have confirmed you, I'd consider you obvscum for the way you are pushing this.

@Dry-fit/Zito/Red Ship-
-Is it plausible that Dry-fit's claim would be a townie?
-I agree that it is unlikely that Dry-Fit or RC don't have red ships. I think it is very probable that lynching a player out of the known red ship group is more likely to hit scum than picking a random player.
-Based on the timing of Dry-Fit's claim, I'd guess that he is claiming miller to forestall a suspected investigation tonight.
-I am surprised that Dry-Fit answered my question directly. Could be a slip or honesty.

I am fine with lynching either Dry-Fit or RC today.

Unvote, Vote: Dry-Fit

How many red ships do you think exist? Do you think they all belong to scum? Do you think scum would claim their own red ship the way Porkens and Dry-Fit have? If anything, Rosso and Sigma's ships are more likely to make them scum. Sigma's claim makes too much sense according to Zito and Rosso could be modkilled. We are better off lynching Rising or Locke I think. Of course the second Rosso posts though, I could support his lynch.

@KMD/Porkens-
-Is it good/bad/neutral to narrow down power townies?
-Is it good/bad/neutral to encourage other players to narrow down power townies?
-Does telling someone to stop talking about something mean that the person asking is trying to get the person being asked to talk about it?
-If a player is being extremely anti-town, should a townie ignore it?

-Depends on the situation. Before a massclaim, usually bad. But this wasn't happening until you called out Porkens. Luckily, he's been smart enough not to help scum out.
-Bad unless it's better for the player to claim.
-It might or might not be meant that way, but that's usually the way it works. By asking about it repeatedly, you are encouraging discussion on the issue. Hell, it may even be better for me to ignore these questions, but that would probably encourage you to push the issue even more.
-Depends on the situation.

----------------------

Porkens, I agree. If it weren't for Excedrin's info, I'd want to lynch Kast immediately.

Hmm. How about I do a list too (Scummiest on top of all lists, towniest at bottom):

At least one scum

Rosso
Locke
Rising

On da fence

Dry-Fit
Plum

Town

Excedrin
Porkens
Sigma
Zito
Kast
Kmd

Rosso is the most likely scum because of the way he disappeared when he had the chance to HAMMAH Jelly. Not being around today isn't helping him. Neither is the fact that he was found unwillingly on a red ship. Locke and Rising are Day 1 reads as well as their actions regarding the Jelly lynch.

Plum doesn't have her normal presence. I almost forget that she's in the game, which is not normal for her. The problem is, she played this way in another Spy-modded game and was town there. Dry-Fit is similar to Plum, but with a red ship, and apparently a miller.

Kast is where he is because he can't possibly be scum unless Excedrin is, so I refuse to lynch him before Excedrin. Sigma is where he is because Jelly's flip made Zito obvtown, and I am trusting Zito on Sigma. I have a town read on Porkens. Excedrin is also a town read, but weaker than Zito and Porkens.

So yeah, my willingness to lynch is that list as soon as Rosso posts. If he doesn't, put him between Zito and Kast on my list if you want to see the order I'd lynch in.

So, considering the list,

Vote Locke Lamora

[Papa Zito]

unvote

There's too much crap going on.

Just to keep this all straight:

Claims

- Papa Zito has claimed Earthling on an unclaimed ship
- Sigma claimed Arilou Lalee'lay on a Thraddash Torch (destroyed)
- Porkens is unclaimed on a Mycon Podship (destroyed)
- Rosso Carne is unclaimed on a Hierarchy ship of some sort
- Kast has claimed Pkunk on an unclaimed ship (confirmed by Excedrin)
- Dry-fit is VUX (Admiral ZEX - miller) on a Vux ship

Unclaimed

- Kmd4390 is unclaimed in race and ship
- Plum is unclaimed in race and ship
- Rising is unclaimed in race and ship
- Locke is unclaimed in race and ship
- Excedrin is unclaimed in race and ship

We're really close to mass claim territory here.

[Papa Zito]

Dry-Fit, I'm iffy on your claim for a few reasons. You need to full claim as miller. Your abilities, your ship's abilities, your flavor, your action(s) last night.

[Kast]

@KMD-

How many red ships do you think exist? Do you think they all belong to scum? Do you think scum would claim their own red ship the way Porkens and Dry-Fit have? If anything, Rosso and Sigma's ships are more likely to make them scum. Sigma's claim makes too much sense according to Zito and Rosso could be modkilled. We are better off lynching Rising or Locke I think. Of course the second Rosso posts though, I could support his lynch.

-There are probably at least 5 red ships. I have no idea if there are more than that. There are likely 3 mafia, and I would guess each of the mafia has a red ship.
-I think it unlikely that there is a 5 person mafia; I'd guess 2 of the 5 claimed red ships are probably not mafia.
-If Porkens' role requires or strongly inclines him to destroy his ship, then he would have incentive to claim before doing it so that he can minimize suspicion of why he had a red ship. As scum, the timing of his claim was ideal; dropping unrelated information that is personally useful but overall useless and distracting for the town right before deadline. So yes, I could see Porkens-scum claiming like he did.
Dry-fit claimed immediately after Excedrin revealed that he knew another player's ship color. I can easily see Dry-fit-scum deciding to claim prior to being potentially investigated and caught as hierarchy.
-Agreed that RC's ship makes him more likely to be scum than players in general. Also agreed that the probability of RC getting modkilled with no factional penalty makes him an undesirable lynch if he continues to lurk through the day. However, I think it is overall better for the town if he stops lurking and posts some kind of defense for himself and/or claim.
-Agree that Sigma's ship being red makes him more likely to be scum than players in general. The same is true for Porkens and Dry-fit. Sigma being a claimed cop makes it a bad idea to lynch him instead of letting him prove himself. He is the least desirable lynch of the 4 red ship owners, and generally an undesirable lynch candidate for today.
-What is the case against Rising?
-What is the case against LL?

@Dry-Fit as miller-
Given that we have a claimed extremely restricted cop and a claimed person who found out the ship affiliation of another player, I find it unlikely that we would also have a miller.

The existence of 5 "confirmed" red ships AND a player who can determine the color of another player's ship already implies some number of ship millers.

Our claimed cop is extremely limited in who he can investigate; adding in millers to throw off an already extremely limited investigation would be unbalanced.

[Kast]

@KMD-

^Pointing things out like that are even more anti-town, especially if you truly believe it.

This makes it clear (as does your previous post), that you do see that Porkens post narrows down townie power roles. Maybe you want to give him a free pass since, as you said, you think it is part of his meta to do incomprehensible things. I don't share that attitude.

This would have been just a warning and nothing more, but Porkens decided to try and cover up his anti-town play by pushing an irrational, senseless attack.

But this wasn't happening until you called out Porkens. Luckily, he's been smart enough not to help scum out.

That doesn't even make any sense. You admit that power roles were narrowed down, and specifically that Porkens is unlikely to be a power role responsible for the lack of deaths last night. But you claim that the narrowing down only happened after I pointed out that Porkens post contains an implicit claim to not have such a role. Prior to my post, the information about Porkens was already contained within his post. You and I were both astute enough to see that information (and it's probable that most if not everyone else also could see it).

If Porkens is town, he had already helped out scum. That is not lucky for town. It would only be lucky for scum.

You are essentially making a fairly common but fallacious argument that drawing attention to a misplay is itself a misplay. You are adding the equally fallacious corollary that the second action being a misplay makes the first action not a misplay.

Your fallaciously assume that scum are too stupid to notice when a townie reveals something, and therefore the act of pointing out those reveals helps scum and is thus a misplay. The actual misplay is the revelation of that information in the first place. Scum aren't stupid, and playing as if they are is reckless. Scum are generally in a much better position to notice and evaluate potential reveals.

In our specific case, Porkens didn't just narrow potential power townies by removing himself; he also invited others to further narrow it down.

[Kast]

However, I think it is overall better for the town if he stops lurking and posts some kind of defense for himself and/or claim.

It would also be better for RC himself. If he gets modkilled, then he gets banned from future BaM games.

[Kmd4390]

Kast, stop putting words in my mouth. I DO NOT think that Porkens has given any info about what role he may or may not have. I WILL NOT discuss this further.

[Plum]

So tired . . .

Is apparently we have a whole bunch o' people claiming that they were on red-text ships. But rereading . . .

No, I didn't admit that, I'm saying that if I were scum, I'd be jettisoning a ship that was pretty useful. Obviously, the ship was useless to me.

Fair enough; read it the same way Zito did at first.

sigma's claim is believable to me, I have no doubt that 2 instances of town guys on bad guy ships is possible, because Rosso Carne is on a red ship.

Why does one - that you know of another on a red-text ship - indicate that multiple Townies-on-scumships are possible. But

Vote: Rosso Carne

. The read from yesterday on Excedrin still irritates me and I think later some suggest leaving Rosso to get modkilled and persuing a different lynch, which sounds like a nice two-birds-one-stone deal if we can get it.

Gut feeling Kmd is town.

Excedrin's interaction with Kast leads me to believe that they're both probably town. Plus claim about Rosso, o'course.

Dry-fit's claim sounds . . . probable. He's colored what he'd investigate as, not what he is, according to Mod-provided info, so. That's a fairly technical Miller. But it's unlikely that four Townies started out on red-text ships. I say leave Rosso to Modkill, hopefully. My reads on Sigma and Porkens are not as strongly-town as I'd really like but I'll deal if they're picked up. But I doubt even three Townies started out on red-text ships, including any possible Miller, so I want to lynch him first hopefully see about Porkens and sigma tomorrow if they haven't asphyxiated or anything.

I dislike Locke partly by process of elimination, partly on his last post of Day 1, but would rather lynch Dry-fit. I agree that he needs to fullclaim.

Unvote; Vote: Dry-fit

-There are probably at least 5 red ships. I have no idea if there are more than that. There are likely 3 mafia, and I would guess each of the mafia has a red ship.
-I think it unlikely that there is a 5 person mafia; I'd guess 2 of the 5 claimed red ships are probably not mafia.
-If Porkens' role requires or strongly inclines him to destroy his ship, then he would have incentive to claim before doing it so that he can minimize suspicion of why he had a red ship. As scum, the timing of his claim was ideal; dropping unrelated information that is personally useful but overall useless and distracting for the town right before deadline. So yes, I could see Porkens-scum claiming like he did.
Dry-fit claimed immediately after Excedrin revealed that he knew another player's ship color. I can easily see Dry-fit-scum deciding to claim prior to being potentially investigated and caught as hierarchy.

Mostly this.

[Excedrin]

sigma's claim is believable to me, I have no doubt that 2 instances of town guys on bad guy ships is possible, because Rosso Carne is on a red ship.

Why does one - that you know of another on a red-text ship - indicate that multiple Townies-on-scumships are possible.

The context of that was that someone said, "You expect us to believe that there's 2?"

It's possible that sigma or Porkens is scum who jettisoned to try to get onto a ship with Alliance players. The motivation they've stated for their actions could be an Alliance motivation. I think that applies to sigma slightly more than it does to Porkens, after considering sigma's race and ability claim.

Dry-fit claimed his Hierarchy race and ship strangely (because of circumstances), but it's also

possible

that he's town. (Didn't know about Dry-fit when I wrote the previous quote, but it adds to the sample.)

There may be other alliance players who are on Hierarchy ships who didn't think that it was a good idea to jettison like Porkens. It's possible that Rosso Carne is in this category, but I believe it's unlikely due to info that I haven't revealed. If Rosso Carne is going to be modkilled, then there's no reason to reveal it.

As a note, I think that if there's around 5 red ships, then they're almost all accounted for.

But I doubt even three Townies started out on red-text ships, including any possible Miller, so I want to lynch him first hopefully see about Porkens and sigma tomorrow if they haven't asphyxiated or anything.

They'll die unless someone picks them up during the next night. Kast says it's possibly a bad idea to pick them up, I follow his reasoning but I'm undecided. If sigma isn't lying about his claim, then he can confirm anyone who picks him up. If he is lying, he probably takes over their ship and/or kills them, but won't that be obvious?

[Kast]

@Excedrin-

Kast says it's possibly a bad idea to pick them up, I follow his reasoning but I'm undecided. If sigma isn't lying about his claim, then he can confirm anyone who picks him up. If he is lying, he probably takes over their ship and/or kills them, but won't that be obvious?

Again, to be clear, if anyone strongly suspects that either Porkens OR Sigma is town, then by all means pick them up and keep your suspected townie alive. This will vary on a person by person basis since each person may have different night options available.

Sigma's claim does provide extra incentive for townies to rescue him; and obviously disincentives for scum to rescue him. Sigma also didn't claim beforehand, so it is possible that his ship's destruction was unintentional and he is lying to cover himself and potentially draw out someone who could be responsible.

If either Sigma or Porkens is lying, then the liar started out with a hierarchy ship and it is unlikely that the purpose of jettisoning is simply to get a different hierarchy ship, or really to do anything that would obviously reveal them. Immediate reasons based on "standard" roles are recruitment or paying a cost for a power-up.

[Kast]

I DO NOT think that Porkens has given any info about what role he may or may not have.

And yet, you believe that after I pointed out that Porkens post implicitly claims that he does not have certain roles, there pool of players who could have those roles is narrowed down. Inconsistent. I suppose you could be hoping that your posts are a sort of damage control and that by insisting that Porkens post doesn't say anything, you might trick scum into not using Porkens information. I suggest that you don't assume scum are stupid.

If Porkens is town, scum had that information as soon as Porkens made his post. There is a possibility that Porkens was intentionally being deceptive to confuse scum, however, scum have more information than town and are thus better able to determine if he was being honest. The fact that he made his claim implicitly also argues against this. Ultimately, the post doesn't help town, and helps scum if Porkens is town. This isn't necessarily scummy, but it is behavior that needs to be stopped.

The emotional and irrationally, vindictive reaction is also typical of people who are called out on a mistake and don't want to admit it. As a veteran player, Porkens should know better than to react in this way. His decision to abandon something that he previously claimed as significant and scummy is typical of a player who made a mistake and needs to back off but is trying to do so without losing face. He should have skipped the first part, but if he actually is doing the second part, then good for him.

The nature of the post (a challenge to another player's claim) invites others to comment in a way that would further help scum narrow down targets. This is inherently scummy. Fortunately, I was able to warn the town before anyone fell into Porkens' trap and helped scum narrow things down more.

It's amusing that KMD and Porkens both have repeated that they'll drop this, but then raise it up again. Less amusing, and more worrisome, is that they both apparently continue to maintain that it is okay to narrow down townie power roles as long as it isn't done so explicitly. If I see any more of this behavior, I will continue to point it out.

[Rising]

game setup information that implies scum want to get on board a townie ship

No. We

don't

have setup information that implies scum would want to get on board "A townie ship" (as in "

any

townie ship"). Quite the opposite, really. We have setup information that implies scum would've wanted to get on board certain

specific

ships, which are now destroyed. Big difference.

Why townies claiming they have ships that scum would like to get on implies that scum would like to get on those ships

Yes, it implies that SCUM would've liked to get on THOSE ships. This is obvious.

What

I

asked you is why you thought

Porkens

and

sigma

were scum and would want to get on board

our

ships. I'm still waiting for an answer.

[Rising]

I also need people to weigh in on Kast here. To me, he's spouting pure nonsense. I need to know if it's just me.

Obviously, it

is

nonsense, as anyone can see:

A=Porkens is town.
B=Sigma is town.
C=It is probable that scum want to get aboard a town ship.
D=Town should not rescue

IF A AND B, THEN C. IF C, THEN D.

Common sense dictates that IF A AND B; THEN NOT D. If we somehow could

know

that Porkens and sigma were town, then we would

of course

try to rescue them. That is a no-brainer.

Kast makes two obvious mistakes in his post:

First: IF A AND B THEN C.
This is wrong. A correct conclusion would be: "It is probable that scum would have wanted to get aboard

sigma's and porken's ships

." It says absolutely nothing about scum wanting to get aboard

other

ships (if anything, it contradicts it). But it also implies that scum have

other means

to get aboard other players ships than merely jettisoning their own and hoping to be picked up by townplayers. Because seriously, what are the odds that a player on a hierarch ship would pick up the right scumplayer? If I had a hierarch ship with a powerful, nasty ability, I wouldn't pick up any unconfirmed players

at all

, and I doubt that anyone would.

Second: IF C, THEN D.
This is also wrong. D is only true if you add "...by jettisoning their own ships and hoping to be picked up by townplayers" to C. And if

that

was how scum worked in this setup, I doubt they would have been given red ships to start with. How likely is that? "You're an Ilwrath pirate. If you get picked up on another player's ship, you have the ability to kill the pilot on that ship and take his place. Oh, and you begin on a Mycon ship, which will be written in red for all players to see if you were to jettison it." It seems kinda unfair.

---

So: It is obvious to me that Kast is either scum who wants us to just sit by and watch two townplayers die in cold space, or that he accidently posted a pile of craplogic garbage and that he's too ashamed and embarrased of it to aknowledge it now. Because one has to be pretty stupid if one can't see how horribly wrong this reasoning is.

---

Kast is where he is because he can't possibly be scum unless Excedrin is

I don't agree. Kast could simply have

fooled

him into thinking he's confirmed town. Ex could simply be

wrong

.

After all; Ex just said that he thinks Kast's posts are correct and logical.

I rest my case.

[sigma]

I'd like to hear that full-claim from Dry-fit. I still don't see why scum would claim in his situation.

I'm completely tuning out Kast/Porkens/rolefishing arguments at the moment. Kast's analysis of the floater situation is bad -- anyone without a decent night action should pick up me or porkens. I agree with Rising's post on this.

[Papa Zito]

Come on Dry-Fit, you're stalling the game now.

[Excedrin]

Rising, all the logic if A and B blah blah really obscures stuff after a while, I think this might be the bit that you're missing:

#439
If both are town, then townies shouldn't know your affiliation and should at best be hesitant to pick you up. The claimed circumstances, that scum want to board someone else's ship, inclines townies against picking up either of you.

[Rising]

Ex: No, that doesn't make any sense, either.

The claimed circumstance is NOT that "scum want to board someone else's ship". The claimed circumstance is merely that scum would have wanted to board

sigma's and porkens' ships

. And we got that information

from

sigma and porkens.

So the logical conclusion is "sigma and porkens should probably jettison their ships, so that scum cannot board them", which is exactly what they decided to do. THAT is what logic tells us.

What Kast tries to make you believe doesn't make any sense at all. He says that if a person does something to protect himself from a certain action, you should suspect

that person

of wanting to commit that exact same action

to you

. That is paranoid and nonsensical. If someone walks up to you and says "Do you have any garlic?! I must have some, because a vampire is after me!" he might of course be lying. You have every right to question and suspect that person. But what you

cannot

do, is think "Hmm... I believe he's telling me the truth about vampires" and

therefore

assume "it's probably HIM that is the vampire! He's gonna kill ME if I don't drive a stake through his heart first! YAAARGH!"

In fact, Kast's argument was even worse than that, because a vampire is (we assume) dangerous to all of us, but we don't know yet if it's dangerous to pick up scum on your ship. All we've heard is that it would've been bad if scum got hold of

sigma's and porkens'

ships. So it's more like a man walking into a crypt and asking some

zombies

after garlic, when Kast-zombie suggests to the rest of the zombies that they drive a stake through the man's heart. It doesn't make any sense.

Don't get me wrong; that man

might

have been a zombie-eating monster of some sort, and Kast-zombie

might

have suggesting just the right thing (just as sigma and Porkens might be scum), but it is

completely irrational

to suspect him

because

we believe he is telling us the truth.

[Excedrin]

You're aware of sigma's claimed race and ability right?

1) sigma may be lying about his race and ability, but may have an ability that interacts with players on the same ship
2) sigma may be telling the truth about his race and ability

If either of those is true, then there's an ability that interacts with players on the same ship. If there's at least one instance of that, then it's possible that someone with Hierarchy alignment has a similar ability with unknown negative effects.

Even disregarding sigma's claimed ability, that there's a mechanic for jettisoning and picking up players implies that abilities that interact with shipmates exist. So, if there's a Hierarchy aligned player with abilities like that, then jettisoning and trying to get picked up might be a good gambit (I'm not sure how else a Hierarchy aligned player could get on an Alliance aligned player's ship).

I think that if you ignore the idea that scum might want to get on Alliance ships then yea, none of what Kast said makes sense.

[Locke Lamora]

If people think there are going to be 5 red ships, as seems to be the case, then they are all accounted for (not that difficult to count, Excedrin). Either the scum are on those 5 red ships, which means the scum are in Porkens, sigma, Rosso and Dry-fit, or there are scum on town ships as well as town on scum ships. Rosso's a pointless vote at this stage and Dry-fit needs to full-claim. I'm not going to vote Dry-fit without a vote count but I'm not buying this 'I guess I'm a miller' stuff. I think it's more likely that he claimed red ship to get an easy excuse for a future investigation.

[SpyreX]

Votecount:

Kmd4390 (0)
Dry-fit (2): Kast, Plum
Locke Lamora (1): Kmd4390
Papa Zito (0)
Excedrin (0)
Plum (0)
Rising (0)
Kast (0):
sigma (0):

Rosso Carne (3): Rising, Excedrin, Porkens

Porkens (0)

Not Voting (5): Dry-fit, Llocke Lamora, sigma, Rosso Carne, Papa Zito

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch!

Deadline: Saturday, October 17th at 10:30 PM PST

The following player could face modkill at the current rate: Rosso Carne. Prods are sent.

[Excedrin]

If people think there are going to be 5 red ships, as seems to be the case, then they are all accounted for (not that difficult to count, Excedrin).

Counting is hard, lets go shopping!

Is Porkens still your 2nd suspect?