Newbie #851 (Game Over!)

[Spinach]

Vote: PorkchopExpress

Ew, Porkchops.

[Spinach]

vote: Spinach

I think he brought it upon himself. Seriously, someone named "Spinach" calling into question a food-based username? And meat > plants. Always.

Jeez.

Honestly, why the hate for Spinach? It's delicious, and I find it depressing that it has a bad reputation, it's Popeye, people!

And I knew someone would vote me for my name, it always happens, so I figured I'd vote someone else for their food related name first. :P

Also, Meat > Plants?! Blasphemy! Lies! It's Plants > Meat, get it right.

[Spinach]

Everyone is innocent until we have a reason to think otherwise.

Nope.

Unvote. Vote: AntiSemantic

. . . you're going to have to explain a little more than 'nope' and a vote. Why do you disagree with it? What makes people who agree with AS's statement scummy? (I'm assuming you think he's scummy because of the vote, correct me if I'm wrong)

And a general rule: It's never good to vote someone without stating why.

Also: Alviaran, David and Stands, come and play! :D

[Spinach]

Well, it's a bit of an eyebrow raiser. I don't see it as an effective mentality for a townie which seems susceptible to buddying and blind spots. I'd say the truth of the matter is somewhat reverse: everyone is suspicious, until you have reason to think otherwise. Townies can only trust themselves, and must scrutinise everyone else. Is it necessarily scummy, though? Such thinking could play well for scum (justifying their focus on the highly-lynchable without unneccessary tangles with other harder-to-lynch players), but there are other reasons a player would believe that, and I haven't seen enough of AS' play to say that it's scummy in this instance. As such it warrants pursuit, and I'm finding that more promising.

In my opinion: Looking at it either way (Innocent until proven guilty, Guilty until proven innocent) are basically the same thing.
With Guilty until proven innocent, you're thinking everyone is scummy as hell until you see a town tell or a scum tell that makes them even more scummier. So basically, well, say we have a number line, with each number indicating varying levels of suspicion. So, say, 1 would be baseline suspicion, with 2 being being complete scum, and 0 being complete town.
With innocent until proven guilty, you're thinking everyone is town until something proves you otherwise. So baseline would be 0, ultimate suspicion 1, and ultimate town -1.
But in reality, you don't think of anyone with higher or less suspicion either method you use, you're still 1 'number' off for scum/town in both of the situations, you still use the same tells/suspicions etc.

The baseline in which you start at is irrelevant to suspicion,

I say we use something less confusing, such as neutral until proven guilty/innocent.
(I really hope that wasn't too confusing. >_>)

R.V.S.= Random Voting Stage

On the topic of make vanilla townie "claim", it wasn't really such. Since plain townie is the baseline role -- statistically, even if you don't agree with my storyline/philosophical explanations -- and given how little information we have ONE post into the game, I meant it to be interpreted as a facetious statement along the lines of "I'm innocent and uninteresting", which is what everyone is, IMO, implicitly claiming in the initial portion of a basic game.

I think either AntiSemantic or PorkchopExpress is scum. I'd lean towards PE, I don't like his accusatory tone.

vote: PorkchopExpress

Unvote

Stands, you just put Porkchop at L-1 (1 vote to lynch). This means someone could have come along and hammered Pork if they really wanted to. L-1 should be only for people who are ready to be lynched, which is certainly not the case for Porkchop. Discussion should be carried out as long as close to the deadline as possible, and ending D1 4 days in certianly isn't that.

[Spinach]

Things I don't like (AKA find scummy):
1) AntiSemantic's "vanilla town claim" joke in p14.
2) PorkchopExpress's vote without reason (even a joking one) in p22
3) Silly arguing between PCE and AS all over the place.
4) stands2reasons's unvote after an explanation of L-1 and an unvote from Spinach in p38

Why do you find so called 'silly' arguing scummy? I thought that that something scummy was something that scum generally do or something that is an advantage for scum to do. I don't see this as either, in fact, isn't this argument better than nothing? It's gotten us out of the deep RVS, though I'd say we're not quite out of it yet. Seems to me like you're just trying to just pile more suspicion on Anti/Porkchop.

[Spinach]

Why do you find so called 'silly' arguing scummy? I thought that that something scummy was something that scum generally do or something that is an advantage for scum to do. I don't see this as either, in fact, isn't this argument better than nothing? It's gotten us out of the deep RVS, though I'd say we're not quite out of it yet. Seems to me like you're just trying to just pile more suspicion on Anti/Porkchop.

Quite the contrary, in the 2 previous games I've played in there was always a conversation in Day 1 that made us think that 1 person or the other was scummy and it usually ended up that both people were town and we lynched one and had suspicions of the other...and regardless it doesn't usually end well. Now I'm not saying that AS and PCE are town for sure, but they method they are using is definantly NOT scum-hunting. Bickering about minor details in someone's statement does not make you the town savior. Finding HUGE flaws or contradictions, however does. So to sum it up...I wasn't saying they were scummy...just that it is something I dislike.

But how are we supposed to find HUGE flaws and contradictions if no-one is talking? We HAVE to start somewhere, I mean, without that so-called silly argument where would we be? We can't just stand around doing nothing waiting for somebody to screw up. And I'd like links to those games, please, because I'm thinking that you're just exaggerating the situation. Also, I'd hate to sound pessimistic, but a scum lynch is rare on D1, so a townie being lynched isn't exactly the worst thing in the world, I mean, a town lynch leaves something to go off of, such as bandwagons (if there were any) and looking at voting patterns and such.

So to sum it up...I wasn't saying they were scummy...just that it is something I dislike.

Things I don't like (AKA find scummy):

1) AntiSemantic's "vanilla town claim" joke in p14.
2) PorkchopExpress's vote without reason (even a joking one) in p22

3) Silly arguing between PCE and AS all over the place.

4) stands2reasons's unvote after an explanation of L-1 and an unvote from Spinach in p38

Things I do like:

How silly you all are arguing over food tastes.

So let me get this straight:
You say that the PCE/AS 'silly' arguing it's not scummy, just something you dislike, but you've clearly stated that you found it scummy.
You find 'silly' arguing between PCE and AS bad, yet you say silly arguing over foods isn't.

FoS: Einlanzers

I think I spot a contradiction.

[Spinach]

Mod: V/LA until Monday

Sorry for the unexpected thing, but the internet at my house went and and you don't need to hear all the technical stuff, but long story short the internet won't be back up until Monday. I should have a

wall

post up sometime after then. :)

(I even went all the way into town to catch the free wireless internet just for you guys. :P)

[Spinach]

Just posting to say that I am back and the internet is working fine. I promise a post late tonight/tomorrow.

[Spinach]

Ack. I'm terribly sorry for not posting. I have been swamped with homework and all this crap and I lost my sense of time according to this game. >_> I'm going to post what I wrote the day the internet came back, so if you want any responses out of me that I don't answer within it, ask me.

Scummiest, at this point:

Vote: Pierre Sickle

: Many reasons, contradictions, and other scummy things spotted (which you're all familiar with by now) and with 3 days left, I think we need to put someone in claim condition, to leave time in case the claim sways our opinion.

@Spinach:
Previous games:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11691
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12122

And as you can see in my last game we lynched scum first-night. I hammered town second-night. And lynched scum third-night. So lynching scum on Day 1 does happen.

Spinach, to further the discussion on the AS/PCE arguing: It doesn't make them scum for arguing, but it distracts the town from other issues and can start a flame war that could lead to someone being lynched for the wrong reasons. And the act HELPS mafia, so the act is scummy, but the people doing it aren't necessarily scum..if that makes any sense.

@swimmer4lyfe:
Wow, for this being your first mafia game you sure know how to put together a good recap. Although I don't agree with all your points 100% you do make some pretty compelling arguments. Welcome to the game!

Aren't you being a little bit paranoid here? I have never seen silly arguing lead to flamewars; from what I can tell most people on MS are civil enough to refrain from this, and any beginnings of a flamewar are extinguished well with fireblankets and bullets from a mod. :P And even if a flamewar started; I doubt the flamewar itself would sway the town's opinion so much that they would lynch.

While I understand the logic that a town lynch still gives information, I don't really care for the very "oh well" attitude you have there, Spinach. We should be trying to avoid a mislynch as much as possible, even if it is day 1.

I'm sorry if it came off as pessimistic, I was just trying to be real. Scum lynches on D1 don't happen often.

@Alvarian
I agree that we should be avoiding a town lynch as much as possible. There are a limited number of cases in which lynching a town is beneficial for information.

Lies! If the unfortunate thing happens that we lynch a town; there is always something that can be learned from it.

Always

.

further, guys who don't yet have one, a avatar would be appreciated. It makes games a lot easier to read.

No. (Because I'm stubborn. :P)

you guys need to comment on Pierre more. So far people have just been "nice case! But I don't agree fully, but I'm not going to explain and ignore you" or have been "welcome to the game! Nice post! Now I'm going to ignore you"

More Pierre discussion please

You know; your case isn't the only case out there. I'm getting a bit of tunnel vision out of you at this point. Almost all the things you've said have been about Pierre. Have an open mind; what do you feel about the rest of the players?

you guys need to comment on Pierre more. So far people have just been "nice case! But I don't agree fully, but I'm not going to explain and ignore you" or have been "welcome to the game! Nice post! Now I'm going to ignore you"

More Pierre discussion please

Sorry all, stupid time zones and what not. First of all, swimmer, this is quite much for your first game. But, right now, I'm actually suspecting you, not just because of you thinking I'm scum. That of course would be indecent :).

Oh, so you're trying to make up some crap logic about to hide that fact that you're FOS's someone because they FOS you?

To clear this up, it's my first game too, and I thought RVS was for the whole first day.

Understandable

Next, you just want to get out of me so much? Two posts aren't needed IMO, someone did agree with you.

Just jump in, start making some accusations? To make it worse, you try to MAKE SURE that people know all my faults? Seems scummy to me... I think Alviaran also pointed this out.

What is he supposed to do? Come in and shit muffins to our amazement? And I agree that he is being a bit excessive, like a child wanting their parent to pay attention to them. :P

Right now, attitude is over the whole nothing big yet.

Or it could be pissing you off that you made some incredible observation on me, although I'm not scum anyone those were some fine, fine points.

BOLDED

to me, total newb would be someone like stands2reason...where he's not posting any thoughts at all, and is voting someone based on their attitude.

Remember, a scum is doing their best to stay out of limelight and not attract attention. I see the whole AS vs PE argument as a distraction to the town where the scum are trying to get the town to lynch either of them.

This

That's exactly what I see in Pierre. Attempting to get AS lynched while not looking responsible for it. He has said in his post that he's not trying to start a bandwagon, but he wants that person lynched...that's a contradiction.

Also this

And yes, I'm attempting to get a bandwagon on Pierre to lynch him.

Woah there, I believe I have stated this before, but IMO, discussion should be carried out until the end of the day, so bandwagons at this point isn't really something we want. Anyways, I find this statement scummy.. outright stating you want someone lynch ASAP, and expecting the town to follow. I know this can be ruled out as a newbie thing, but, there is a line for that, and I believe this crosses it.

you guys need to comment on Pierre more. So far people have just been "nice case! But I don't agree fully, but I'm not going to explain and ignore you" or have been "welcome to the game! Nice post! Now I'm going to ignore you"

More Pierre discussion please

Sorry all, stupid time zones and what not. First of all, swimmer, this is quite much for your first game. But, right now, I'm actually suspecting you, not just because of you thinking I'm scum. That of course would be indecent :).

To clear this up, it's my first game too, and I thought RVS was for the whole first day.

Next, you just want to get out of me so much? Two posts aren't needed IMO, someone did agree with you.

Just jump in, start making some accusations? To make it worse, you try to MAKE SURE that people know all my faults? Seems scummy to me... I think Alviaran also pointed this out.

Right now, attitude is over the whole nothing big yet.

Or it could be pissing you off that you made some incredible observation on me, although I'm not scum anyone those were some fine, fine points.

this is not "quite much" for a mafia game. You have to be completely transparent with your opinions and thoughts when playing in order to show the town who ISNT doing that...scum are the only ones trying to hide their true thoughts. There is no quota for how much to post.

About posting limit; a good rule of thumb is a good content post every day.

Also hilarious that once again someone calls you out, you suspect them as scum. You should read up on something called "OMGUS".

And yes I'm going to list every single fault you do in the entire game. That is not scummy. It's called scum hunting.

Also to Ein, Pierre can simply defend himself on my points and explain his posts. He has not chosen to do so. I don't think I need to ask someone to clarify their posts, I just find the scumminess and then they attempt to explain it.

BOLDED

Still, nothing smells fishy. So

unvote

for now, a few good posts by AntiSemantic makes me think he's not so suspicious, but rather willing to help. But we DO need to get rid someone for informational purposes.

Vote: stands2reason

What now? Nothing is suspicious so we need to vote off someone for 'informational purposes', but not for informational purposes? You vote him because he was scummy, not for informational purposes.

Now I think he's just trying to quickly get someone off and that with not posting at all.

You aren't much better than him.

It's either he's really bad scum, trying to quickly get off with a post then hide.

Then, we can say he's a cop who has nothing behind a vote and just waits.

I'm going to take this as a newbie mistake, but you almost NEVER. EVER. Talk about PR identity. Doing so can only help the scum.

OR

We can say he's just a really bad player, not joining in and participating. So reasons, reasons, reasons, really.

But yeah, he can just be a huge newbie.

I agree with this stance on stand2reason at this point.

stands, I think you should vote as you want to vote, but you need to realize that your vote can have repercussions. If someone would have hammered Porkchop and he would have turned up to be town then you would have had a hand in that.

However, Spinach already took away that possibility by unvoting putting him back at L-2, so 2 people would have had to vote to lynch him. You unvoting doesn't really matter. You just put him at L-3. So if you DO think that he is scum you should vote for him, but DO NOT put someone at L-1 unless you are SURE of it.

That being said I give Spinach +1 town point for prevention of early hammer.

OK then. I still think he's kinda suspcious, so

vote: PE

Once again,

BOLDED

]

[Spinach]

Aren't you being a little bit paranoid here? I have never seen silly arguing lead to flamewars; from what I can tell most people on MS are civil enough to refrain from this, and any beginnings of a flamewar are extinguished well with fireblankets and bullets from a mod. :P And even if a flamewar started; I doubt the flamewar itself would sway the town's opinion so much that they would lynch.

No I'm not. I'VE SEEN IT HAPPEN. If people continue to bicker and not do any REAL scumhunting then the attention goes towards them. But I digress it seems AS and PCE have been doing a good job lately of scumhunting and adding to the conversation.

If you've seen it happen, then give me a link to said game where it happened.

Lies! If the unfortunate thing happens that we lynch a town; there is always something that can be learned from it. Always.

Lies x's 2! There are very few cases it will yield information

IMMEDIATELY noticeable.

The information from the lynch itself yields no real information and here's why:
Day 1
It takes 5 people to lynch someone in a game with 9 people. With 2 scum and 7 town. Generally the chances that one scum is on the wagon are pretty good. So they lynch a town Day 1.
Day 2 (assuming NK)
It takes 4 people to lynch someone in a game with 7 people. With 2 scum and 5 town. The chances of one scum being on the wagon are good, but probably not both. The chances of the same scum voting for the lynchee 2 days in a row is 50/50, but I would guess that most scum-pairs would use 2 different mafia: making it more like 75/25. So 1/5 to pick from Day 1 and 1/4 to pick from Day 2, which are most likely 2 different people, so you can even cross reference them not to mention you lynched 2 townies and you'll be 3 town vs 2 mafia in Day 3...
So yeah...the only REAL way to gather information is to look for slip-ups and obvious scum-tells. Voting patterns alone give you diddly squat. So yes a town lynch paired with VERY DECISIVE EVIDENCE gives you information, but that evidence alone would suffice if you look into it closely enough.

I bolded the part I wish for clarification on. How does how hard the tells are to spot have to relate to the current condition? A easy to see tell and a hard to spot tell are both the same if you think about how scummy they are. How hard it is to find is irrelevant. What did you mean by this?
And you're only looking at ONE aspect of it. Yes, voting patterns are a big deal to do with it, but there's more than votes, such as who defended the lynch and why, who supported the lynch or not, and this is just for the town. I have yet to find a lynch that we didn't gain information out of. I mean, the most obvious information of all, the person's role, is determined at lynch. If that isn't information I don't know what is.

A claim on D1..really? You guys trying to sniff out doctors/cops?

What?! You're expecting us to lynch without a claim? That's crazy talk, lynching without a claim is a huge mistake, and claiming shouldn't happen until we're about to lynch, so role-fishing can be ruled out of it.

[Spinach]

@Spinach:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11691
Santos and Lupo El Loco

@Spinach:
You misunderstand, I'm not saying it's hard to notice someone's scumminess by a Day 1 town lynch. I'm saying it's practically impossible to implicate anyone on JUST that. You need more evidence (such as what they said when they voted, any other contradictions, voting pattern on Day 2, etc).
Spinach, you're missing a big point here...look at your quote:

Yes, voting patterns are a big deal to do with it, but there's more than votes, such as who

defended the lynch

and why, who

supported the lynch

or not

Your 2 points here can be EASILY found without going through with the lynch. You put the person at L-1/L-2 and you have a decent idea of that already. The ONLY drawback is that you're not 100% sure of the lynchee's role as-of-yet, but you can still get a feel for the scumminess of the lynchers.

I mean, the most obvious information of all, the person's role, is determined at lynch. If that isn't information I don't know what is.

I agree. The best information about a lynch is role. But if you are perfectly fine lynching townies and don't want to do any real scumhunting then hey you learn that the person you lynched is town (some information), but you also lose the power of their vote.

*sigh* I'm not going to fight this anymore; you say that information is not always learned from a role, but then say the identity is information, and we always learn the identity. Plus, there are more pressing things we need to be worrying about 2 days from the deadline. Arguing this point isn't getting us any closer to finding scum.

What?! You're expecting us to lynch without a claim? That's crazy talk, lynching without a claim is a huge mistake, and claiming shouldn't happen until we're about to lynch, so role-fishing can be ruled out of it.

are you serious? you want to lynch someone on D1 without them claiming?

Wow you both saying the same thing their. You're obviously either very sure/passionate about Pierre being scum or you are scum yourselves. He's at L-2 and I'm the only one that has a FoS on him, and I'm not feeling overly confident that he is scum.. So how can you be forcing a role claim if he's at L-2 without even pressure of one more vote (let alone 2)?

What do you mean 'you're the only one who has a FoS on him'? To me, FoS and Hos are like half-votes, in which case there are 3 more votes on him, votes are stronger than FoS. And if you're not overly confident about him being scum, then you need to find someone you're confident about being scum and vote them. It's 2 days to deadline. We need to get serious. NOW. That's why I asked for the claim on him. He's at L-1 with 2 days left, and the most likely to be lynched (as he has the most votes). And fooling around hours before a deadline waiting for a claim is a situation nobody would want to be in.



That said, I ask everyone to vote who they would lynch (but don't go past L-1, we need a claim), since it seems we have 2 candidates. We have to come to an agreement or majority, and at this point in time it looks like Alivaran is going to be the swing vote.

Alivaran: Who is scum? Pierre or S2R?

[Spinach]

Question to everyone: Do you think it's okay to hammer without a claim if the deadline is uber close, as in, a few hours? Over no lynch at all? Because it seems Pierre/S2R are not going to claim.. and this worries me.

I certainly think lynching without a claim when deadline is a few hours away and we know the lynchee isn't going to claim.. mostly because I think tomorrow would be a repeat of the end of D1, but with one less person.

With this in mind: Alv: Are you going to be on close to the deadline? This is me just fretting over whether we'll get a lynch in or not, because I have to go get some sleep right about know..

[Spinach]

Also, Spinach, get an avatar like everyone else. Here, I even found one for you. Just resize it and it's perfect for you!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/58/20048 ... aa265a.jpg

No, I addressed this already. I choose my avatar to be nothing, and that in itself is my avatar.



Myk: Honestly, what would have you said if you were in Alv's position right now? I know if I just hammered the doctor and got him lynched, I would've probably said the same thing. I find alv's comment (at this point) to be null.


Pierre: I'm glad you're actually posting now, and hopefully you'll be better than yesterday. With this, why were you so . . .out of it yesterday?

Over the last 2-3(?) pages, Spinach has done nothing but defend and point fingers. No real singling out there.

Question to everyone: Do you think it's okay to hammer without a claim if the deadline is uber close, as in, a few hours? Over no lynch at all? Because it seems Pierre/S2R are not going to claim.. and this worries me.

I certainly think lynching without a claim when deadline is a few hours away and we know the lynchee isn't going to claim.. mostly because I think tomorrow would be a repeat of the end of D1, but with one less person.

With this in mind: Alv: Are you going to be on close to the deadline? This is me just fretting over whether we'll get a lynch in or not, because I have to go get some sleep right about know..

@Spinach:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11691
Santos and Lupo El Loco

@Spinach:
You misunderstand, I'm not saying it's hard to notice someone's scumminess by a Day 1 town lynch. I'm saying it's practically impossible to implicate anyone on JUST that. You need more evidence (such as what they said when they voted, any other contradictions, voting pattern on Day 2, etc).
Spinach, you're missing a big point here...look at your quote:

Yes, voting patterns are a big deal to do with it, but there's more than votes, such as who

defended the lynch

and why, who

supported the lynch

or not

Your 2 points here can be EASILY found without going through with the lynch. You put the person at L-1/L-2 and you have a decent idea of that already. The ONLY drawback is that you're not 100% sure of the lynchee's role as-of-yet, but you can still get a feel for the scumminess of the lynchers.

I mean, the most obvious information of all, the person's role, is determined at lynch. If that isn't information I don't know what is.

I agree. The best information about a lynch is role. But if you are perfectly fine lynching townies and don't want to do any real scumhunting then hey you learn that the person you lynched is town (some information), but you also lose the power of their vote.

*sigh* I'm not going to fight this anymore; you say that information is not always learned from a role, but then say the identity is information, and we always learn the identity. Plus, there are more pressing things we need to be worrying about 2 days from the deadline. Arguing this point isn't getting us any closer to finding scum.

What?! You're expecting us to lynch without a claim? That's crazy talk, lynching without a claim is a huge mistake, and claiming shouldn't happen until we're about to lynch, so role-fishing can be ruled out of it.

are you serious? you want to lynch someone on D1 without them claiming?

Wow you both saying the same thing their. You're obviously either very sure/passionate about Pierre being scum or you are scum yourselves. He's at L-2 and I'm the only one that has a FoS on him, and I'm not feeling overly confident that he is scum.. So how can you be forcing a role claim if he's at L-2 without even pressure of one more vote (let alone 2)?

What do you mean 'you're the only one who has a FoS on him'? To me, FoS and Hos are like half-votes, in which case there are 3 more votes on him, votes are stronger than FoS. And if you're not overly confident about him being scum, then you need to find someone you're confident about being scum and vote them. It's 2 days to deadline. We need to get serious. NOW. That's why I asked for the claim on him. He's at L-1 with 2 days left, and the most likely to be lynched (as he has the most votes). And fooling around hours before a deadline waiting for a claim is a situation nobody would want to be in.



That said, I ask everyone to vote who they would lynch (but don't go past L-1, we need a claim), since it seems we have 2 candidates. We have to come to an agreement or majority, and at this point in time it looks like Alivaran is going to be the swing vote.

Alivaran: Who is scum? Pierre or S2R?

Anyone else notice that he's kind of relating to Alviaran a little?

Day 2's meh scumhuntin' day.

(I've replaced the bad quote with a good one)

First of all, doesn't defending and pointing fingers basically account for a most of content in a game? And that hasn't been all I've been doing, I mean, Page 9 post 208 of mine contained neither defense or finger-pointing.

And you're going to have to elaborate on that last comment about alviaran, because I don't know what you mean. Do you think I'm playing like him? Do you think I'm playing like him? Do you think I'm buddying? What?

[Spinach]

Ack, sorry about that. >_> Sunday and Monday I was sick, and Tuesday I was too busy making up the missed day at school, I didn't have time to hop on the internet.


PIERRE: P240. Please respond to my points and clarify what I asked.

Not a huge fan of the question in this post. Once again we are seeing a mentality more concerned with appearing above board than securing a necessary result for the town. The town needs to lynch (circumstances depending) and it won't always be done with the surest of cases or in the tidiest of ways. In light of some of his discussion with Einlazers, his hesitancy to hammer is troubling.

What do you mean my 'hesitancy to hammer'? First of all, I did not have the hammer. And second of all, I wasn't being hesitant, I was just being cautious. I was trying to make sure we had the best guy picked for a lynch and that we could have a proper claim to avoid doing what we ended up doing..

[Spinach]

Mykonians wishlist

Spinach power
More then oneliners from PCE, pierre
In case he still wants: a case on mykonian by swimmer
something else then semantics from Einlanzers
Alv to give an opinion about every player. (short list with how much you like them, and why)

Excuse me for being slow, but Spinach Power is a joke right? >_> If not, what did you mean.

PIERRE. 240.

[Spinach]

No, I meant his hesitancy. We can call it caution if Spinach prefers, but the fact remains that his play and what he's saying aren't matching up.

Making sure that claimless hammering is okay by the rest of us suggests that he is more concerned with how his vote is going to be received than where his vote is going. Hell, it could indicate that Spinach knew it was a mislynch and wanted to make sure that he wouldn't be attracting suspicion.

(Update: The Portfolio of Doom has been handed in. Now the healing can begin. Thanks for your patience)

Making sure claimless hammering was okay with the rest of you would tell me if we needed to push a claim more or if I should be worried about getting a claim more or something. I didn't know if I was in the wrong thinking that doing what I had said was okay and I wanted to get other people's opinion.

[Spinach]

@Alviaran: So your saying by hunting... I've done nothing?

And sometimes, real life can get in the way of mafia, it's not always lurking. Lurking, in my own thought should only be considered as a sort of final resort, mainly because of the reason here.

I've done my best, it's just that nothing's been big enough as to make a quality post about it.

Vote: Pierre

'Nothing big enough?' What? I've been poking you for 2 posts to respond to it and for 4 posts you've ignored me. I hope you can see that I am serious about this by my vote.

And Since it seems to me Pierre is scummy: I'd like to think Alviaran would be the possible partner in crime.

Here Alviaran clearly states Pierre > S2R in scumminess, and that he is going to hammer Pierre, but suddenly in his hammer post he concludes that S2R is scummier and hammers him. The only reason I can think of such conclusion is a scum save. Also, the ending bit of this post here strikes me as a scum trying to covertly tell it's scum counterpart to come and claim, and that nothing is going to happen. So,

FOS: Alviaran

[Spinach]

Spinach, I know I am not allowed to correct you on your scumplay, but why not bus him good? A FoS is so... wishy washy. People will get that it only serves a purpose to be turned into a vote when the situation gets hopeless.

And then you are too late. Because everybody will see your jump on the wagon, for poor reasons, and while it is on scum, the whole series of posts before it show your connection to alv.

I know you aren't going to react to this post, don't worry. Maybe if you don't it goes away...

Alviaran isn't ready for L-1, so I placed a FoS. I would've voted had it not been L-2, plus I felt my vote was better suited as a pressure vote so Pierre would (hopefully) respond.

@Spinach:

I did respond...

Post 242, page 10.

(I've replaced the bad quote with a good one)

First of all, doesn't defending and pointing fingers basically account for a most of content in a game? And that hasn't been all I've been doing, I mean, Page 9 post 208 of mine contained neither defense or finger-pointing.

And you're going to have to elaborate on that last comment about alviaran, because I don't know what you mean. Do you think I'm playing like him? Do you think I'm playing like him? Do you think I'm buddying? What?

Point out something else that I need to respond to. Except the why was I so out of it yesterday, it was more of my newbiness. I thought the whole of the first day was a sort of Semi RVS and I really couldn't find anything, especially with the summer heat in Australia pretty much sizzling my internet for about two days. Stupid possums or whatever bear this country loves... Koala. That's it, stupid Koalas.

No, you didn't, this is post 242:

If I look over again, it was Alviaran who had a decision to vote. My bad, if that will cover it.

I'd like more than a dodging one-liner.

Okay PCE, I admit I'm probably more concerned about how others perceive my actions than a townsperson should, and well, truthfully I didn't think of it as something scummy. I just noticed that the past couple of games I have played, I have been a bit careless in my actions, not thinking about what the town would perceive me as, so I came into this game thinking about this and trying to be more careful. I did not think that this type of play would lead people to think of me as scummy. I'll try to be less worried about this in the future. And I admit I have sort of been trying to stay out of the light, mostly because one of my goals for this game also was to live past D1, since pretty much all the games I've played I was eliminated N1.

@First Quote: I've said this and I am going to say it again, I wasn't trying to sound pessimistic, I was just trying to be real, because face it, most lynches on D1 are in fact town, and I wanted a claim to avoid PR lynching. (like we did..)

[Spinach]

@First Quote: I've said this and I am going to say it again, I wasn't trying to sound pessimistic, I was just trying to be real, because face it, most lynches on D1 are in fact town, and I wanted a claim to avoid PR lynching. (like we did..)

I'm not giving you a hard time because you think Day 1 is more likely to end in a mislynch. That's not what I'm talking about and I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to reframe the issue again.

What I'm talking about here (clearly) is that you know the town has to lynch otherwise it isn't chasing leads and isn't gaining information, but when the deadline was looming you were of two minds about whether to lynch because it might make you look bad.

I was of two minds because I had never been in that situation before. I did not know what to do. That is why I asked that question.

This is after you've stated that you don't believe any claims will be coming.

So, you started at a position of:

Scumlynch is better than a mislynch, which is better than a no lynch.

and shifted to:

No lynch is better than a claimless mislynch.

When did I state this?

In a position that you thought might bring you unwanted scrutiny.

Then this whole, trying to dodge the NK thing. If you were trying to survive the NK by not being overly townie, why wouldn't you engage in behaviour that you considered somewhat scummy (but defensible none the less)?

I thought of this to be defensible.

More to the point, as a vanilla townie why were you trying to dodge the NK at all? Part of what Vanilla does is make nice big pro-town targets of themselves to give the PRs some breathing room.

If all VTs make big targets of themselves then won't the PRs be spotted easily? I just have been frustrated with having seemingly little input on the game, I wanted to try something new and actually get somewhere and test the waters beyond D1

If you value PRs so much that you'd risk a No Lynch to ensure not lynching one, why wouldn't you try and draw the NK away from potential PRs?

When did I say I'd risk a no-lynch to save the PRs?

Your strategy is illogical and self-serving, your defence doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You are scum. Hell, I don't even need to drag this down into a debate about the merits of PR claims on Day 1.

Responded in Bold.


Pierre: Respond.

I'm willing to hammer Alv once he claims. That last post seemed like a desperate scum trying to make a case on someone to save him/herself.

[Spinach]

Gah, I'm totally split on this. I'm leaning Alv though, because if PS was scum I think he'd have a little more effort, and while PS has done.. nothing, Alv has actually done things that are scummy. (I hope that made sense)


I'd like to hear Myk's thoughts before I decide.

[Spinach]

I meant that Pierre has done nothing, which isn't a scummy action, but rather a scummy inaction, but Alv has done scummy actions, and in my book Scummy Actions are scummier than scummy inaction. It's not scummy actions that make Pierre scummy, it's the lack of action.

And that other thing was phrased wrong as well, I wanted to know if Alv's/PS's claim had any affect on his opinion of him, which telling from the last post did not. I was wondering this because it puzzled me for a moment because I was thinking that for sure a scum would claim cop, since they know if we do or don't have one.

Note to self: Don't try to rush a post before going somewhere. >_>

[Spinach]

Bombs away!

Unvote; Vote Alviaran.

[Spinach]

First of all, I'd like to remind everyone that it is 3 votes to lynch, and that it would be best not to vote as the 2 scum can quickly come along and hammer. This is where you use FoS.

[Spinach]

Okay, sorry, I've seriously been sick, and really, it's getting hard to play the game.

So, you've been sick all game . .? I don't by this excuse.

Anyway, seeing as there isn't much for me to chain down on, I'm going to go on basics. I'm still on Spinach's tail for the reasons before

Oh, you mean the ones that you have yet to respond to?

, and now, for just hammering Alv. It's basically nothing, but it could get the game moving on. I've claimed, and with that claim, I can stand behind it. For Spinach, I think that he's scum mainly because of just jumping the bandwagon.

I thought I clearly stated I was leaning Alviaran in 366, 371, and 377. 378 came off to me as saying that someone needs to hammer already, so I did. It seems everyone was waiting on it.
And aren't you admitting you're scum saying I'm scummy for hoping on Alviaran's bandwagon? There were 2 options, you or Alv. You're saying I'm scummy because I switched from you to Alviaran 'at the last second'. The only was this could have been scummy is if you were scum and I were scum, and I jumped off your wagon at the last minute to save you. This comes off as a major tell to me. By saying I'm scum you're saying that you're scum.

But yes, the town did actually need to get someone out of the way. But it would've made more sense if he got me. One being, that the majority of the town really doesn't like my vibe, even after sending in a claim, though I must admit did seem shaky after re-reading, and, I even had a case on him.

Well, I'm still on me.

I'm a walking heap of contradictions, but I can reverse 'em if I think. Smile

Why are you advocating your own lynch . .? Have you just given up?

Since this is lylo, I'm claiming. I'm vanilla town.

If there is a cop in the game, I'd suggest that person claim to hopefully clear someone.

Ah yes, I was just about to suggest the same thing. I'm a VT as well.

[quote="swimmer4lyfe"']Pierre has since come off as townie to me, although in day 4 lylo I might lean his way depending on who also is still in the game.

Elaborate on this, please.

[Spinach]

In anycase, I'm just curious what people's thoughts are for their #1 scum (please no more information; we don't want to give scum any extra information)
@Spinach, it looks like you suspect Pierre the most?

Yes, I do. He has dodged posts and made excuses too many times to be town. Plus of some of the things you have pointed out (besides the first point before the numbered list, as I don't know if you are town yourself.)

What do you mean by 'no more information'? What information do you mean? How can it help scum?

[Spinach]

What do you mean by 'no more information'? What information do you mean? How can it help scum?

I mean don't give a full list of everyone that is alive and what you think their alignment is. Because if everyone did this then scum would know:
A) Who is the scummiest and could push for their lynch
B) Who is the towniest and could pick a NK much easier.

If we just say our scummiest then we only have to worry about A and not B.

Yes, I agree that we shouldn't be ranking everyone, but sometimes explaining why someone isn't scum is as important as explaining why someone is, such as the case with S4L. He guns for Pierre a lot and then thinks he is town. That can't go unexplained.


Also, Einlanzers, you're the only one that hasn't claimed, can you do so?

[Spinach]

Confirming Activity.

Yes, I do. He has dodged posts and made excuses too many times to be town. Plus of some of the things you have pointed out (besides the first point before the numbered list, as I don't know if you are town yourself.)

What do you mean by 'no more information'? What information do you mean? How can it help scum?

Before I started being suspicious of you, you weren't on my tail at all. The moment I started giving some seriously tiny accusations, you jump ship (wagon) like everyone else, moreso agressively I must say, just like how I was playing when we started playing. I think after reading a few guides, articles and what not, I'm starting to feel relaxed and easier on this game. I can scumhunt, like I'm trying to now, but I can always choose better wording. Well, that's my two cents.

What? Go look at my posts in isolation. Read them. I voted you up until the end yesterday because I thought you were/are scummy, and you also weren't responding. And if I jumped ship, who's ship did I jump from? You and Alv were my top suspects... and Alv was lynched.
And what you're falsely calling on me is an OMGUS, something you have been doing all game.

[Spinach]

Pierre:
First part: No need to nitpick spelling/grammar errors, and what I meant there was that your activity has been down all game, and that it just seemed like another excuse.

Second: Let me ask a question: How was me hammering Alv scummy? The only way I can see it as scummy is the bolded statement,

". . . you were scum and I were scum, and I jumped off your wagon at the last minute to save you."

You must be seeing it in a different way than me.

Third: Now this one just confuses me. Could you clarify?


S4L is coming off as slight scum (due to those sudden reads, might change if what he posts makes.. sense) with Einlanzers as town at this point.

[Spinach]

Pierre:
So you just made up a reason for why I'm scummy to get discussion going? Couldn't you have used a better way?


Einlanzers:
First of all, here's a quote from iso 18:

I'm willing to hammer Alv once he claims. That last post seemed like a desperate scum trying to make a case on someone to save him/herself.

Which I stated I was probably going to hammer Alv at that point, and gave one reason. I didn't state the other ones because I thought it was obvious what the case was, and there was no point in saying it over again, and I even FoS'd Alv in iso 16.
I then reversed back to split because at that point I thought one of them had to be scum, and I thought that scum would know if cop existed or not, so I was thinking that one of them would claim cop, and I could deduce from that who was scum, but they both were Vanilla so that didn't happen. I believe I did a re-read at that point which confirmed my thinking of Alv over Pierre, then noticed everyone was waiting around for a hammer, so I hammered.

PCE:
By 'make sense' I meant if his explanations of his reads were crap (too townie to be town; too scummy to be scum) or if they contained tells and things that logically made sense.
To me, his read on you makes little sense, due to the things you've already explained. (very WIFOM-y)
And I can't really say if the Pierre read makes sense unless I know why he thinks Pierre is town, same with me.
And the reason of the pairing was why I kept it as slight scum, because a Pierre/S4L pairing little sense, because I doubt a scum would do that much busing D1, but something about the sudden town read makes me think it's possible. (This all depends on S4L's response.)

[Spinach]

Pierre:
Don't you think it's a wrong to try and stir discussion, and then complain about how there is too much?
How did you think posting bad reasoning on purpose is better than posting good reasoning? How did you think this would stir discussion more?

I then reversed back to split because at that point I thought one of them had to be scum, and

I thought that scum would know if cop existed or not, so I was thinking that one of them would claim cop, and I could deduce from that who was scum

, but they both were Vanilla so that didn't happen.

While you're right that scum will know the set up and would know if Cop was a safe claim, it's not the best way to find scum (I've learnt from personal experience). You should definitely be wary of a PR claim after another PR has been eliminated, but the set up with both happen.

Yes, I realized I was wrong with this looking back. I should have relied less on this and more on the other actions.

[Spinach]

At this point, I'm not really sure what Pierre is talking about.

He was responding to post 426 of mine.

[Spinach]

Pierre, why create a fake case on me when you could create a real one? Why call for less discussion after you tried to spark it with a 'fake' case, and admitted this game had low activity in 429?

Kyiv: So I'm assuming you think me and Pierre are scum?

[Spinach]

Vote: Start Voting.

I don't see anything we need to wait for, and I'm pretty sure that if Pierre posts it will be:
A) Dodging.
B) Bad reasoning that isn't worth anything.

[Spinach]

No point in holding back now.

Vote: Pierre

[Spinach]

Well, now we just wait.. D: This is the worst part of the game.

[Spinach]

I had a gut feeling that one of you were scum.. there was just nothing I could get on you, and I need more experience defending myself (associated with my record of N1 deaths) I knew that I couldn't convince anyone and keep myself from getting lynched.

And everything I said about trying something different out was true as well. I now realize that this was a mistake and I shouldn't be trying that again.

Anyways, GG all. Look forward to playing with you again. (Though I won't be out of the Newbie Queue until I finally land on scum. :P)