Newbie 848 - The Bunny Mafia Family - over finally!

[Jase]

That isn't true. Bronco made a case against Sable, you could add to it or give your opinion on it. He hasn't made any attempt to move the game forward after his first post.

That is a bit of a misleading accusation, Jase. I didn't find the time to post at all yesterday. The way you word that accusation however, implies that I have been posting without actually contributing.

I see, I assumed we were all mostly around. Was your post from the day before then? Also I have an issue with your vote against sposh, it seems as though you're voting him for taking part in the random voting stage, that, despite your opinion towards it, is an accepted part of the game. Any comments on this?

[Jase]

Also

Unvote

Now that things are getting more serious.

[Incognito]

Vote Count #2 of Day 1

Sposh (2) <-~ Tehstefan, MichelSableheart
Tehstefan (2) <-~ sxizzor, Sposh
MichelSableheart (1) <-~ Nachomamma8
TheBeanBurrito (1) <-~ StarOfTheShow
StarOfTheShow (1) <-~ TheBeanBurrito

Not voting (2) <-~ broncofaninmd, Jase

With 9 alive, 5 will do it.

Tuesday, October 20th at 6 P.M. EDT.

[Nachomamma8]

Towntells and scumtells can be found when players react to others, not when everyone is acting virtually random. Therefore, the actions that you should take are actions that are likely to draw reactions. Fooling around only draws reactions from players who are actually interested in getting the game on the road. By accusing someone of being scum for being eager to start (interesting role, therefore likely scum), for being the last to confirm (wanted more time to speak to scumbuddies) etcetera, you are actually going to get a response from the player you are accusing.

But when players act "virtually" random, they offer something for others to respond to. And fooling around can also draw accusations from plenty of people, such as a person who found a part of fooling around they thought was scummy, no? These accusations at the beginning of the game have no more water than "you have a funny name", and more often than not, these are simply brushed off, and blatant OMGUS reccurs from both townie and scum. You will get responses from people no matter what you do, so it is generally better to take the RVS stage for what it is; making a ton of no-water accusations will only make you look worse.

I very strongly disagree with your statement that townies can spam for pages and pages whereas scum will step in to get the game started. If nobody does anything but fool around till deadline hit, the lynch will effectively be random. Scum would be perfectly happy with that, because it basically means that the town is not using it's main weapon: lynching. Town, on the other hand, needs all information they can get. They won't get significant info if everybody is fooling around. Therefore, town should be the one strifing to get significant discussion started, whereas scum would be perfectly happy if the RVS continues.

But how often do you see people fool around until deadline hits? In all the games you've been in/read, has this EVER happened? Eventually, someone's going to lurk, or someone will lose their patience... The RVS gives a lot of information to the town; not necessarily at first, but during later games. With a longer RVS and a few confirmed roles, scum might have quite the time hiding. The RVS is usually when scum choose to relax, which is when they make mistakes the most often.

I can't follow your reasoning here. Scum have information that they want to hide. They know of two roles which they want to keep secret at all costs. If hidden roles are more likely to be revealed by questions being asked, it seems to me that town is the faction that benefits most.

Scum have information that they want to hide, but townies do as well. A good mafioso can completely take control of the game when they know who's comfortable where, and there are far too many questions that make you look bad no matter how you answer them. I suppose it's just too easy to incriminate a person, scum or townie, with questions.

Because the random voting stage is mostly random, it results in very little information becoming available to the town. However, if you ask game relevant questions (for example about lurking, quickhammering or the like), you can compare the answers they give in the beginning of the game to actions they take later. Town needs info in order to lynch correctly, whereas scum already knows who is and isn't on their faction. Info becoming available is therefore far more benificial for town. Besides, by asking game relevant questions, players won't be able to cop out with the completely useless "it's only the random voting stage, it doesn't matter what I do".

Questions about what players find scummy is practically giving the scum advice. If they see most of the town hates lurkers, guess what they know not to do? If they see that the town believes quickhammering is alright under the right circumstances, guess what they're going to do? Game relevant questions provides plenty of information, sure, but most of that information usually goes to the mafia.

[Nachomamma8]

Also

Unvote

Now that things are getting more serious.

Now that things are getting more serious, who's your top suspect as of now? Why?

[Jase]

Also

Unvote

Now that things are getting more serious.

Now that things are getting more serious, who's your top suspect as of now? Why?

It's between you and sable, I'll go back and quote the post that I thought was suspicious.

[Jase]

I'll have to get that qoute later though, I've got to go now.

[Tehstefan]

Yet nachomamma, I believe that asking questions is one of the few things you can do as a townie to expose scum, as they allow you to get someone's stance on something, then watch to see if they change it quickly or without reason. Sure, it is possible for scum to ask really good questions and handicap the town, but its just as likely the town to do the same. I consider myself beter to ask questions, as if people ask suspicious questions, that aren't very good to answer, perhaps we can realize they may be hiding something.

In any case, Nachomamma, do you have any reads to share?

So far, I haven't seen many signifigant tells, but I'm leaning slightly towards town for both Nachomamma, and Sable. Scum wouldn't want to get in an argument so soon, it draws too much attention, at least in my view. Feel free to enlighten me to anything I may miss.

[Sposh]

Also

Unvote

Now that things are getting more serious.

What was the point of this!?

So far, I haven't seen many signifigant tells, but I'm leaning slightly towards town for both Nachomamma, and Sable. Scum wouldn't want to get in an argument so soon, it draws too much attention, at least in my view. Feel free to enlighten me to anything I may miss.

I disagree! Scum might think it's a great play to distance themselves this early!

[Nachomamma8]

@Teh:
Asking questions is good, yes. But asking questions about theory and such is just not something I agree with. I'm not trying to say that I disagree asking questions about people's behaviors; no, those are the very questions I like. Make sense?

Umm... looking for reads...

No, not many. Trying to get a read on Michel as we speak.

[StarOfTheShow]

broncofaninmd,
I was late because my computer hasn't been working recently. But I found another laptop and I've been using that for the time being.

[StarOfTheShow]

So, I'm not sure who scum is but I think TheBeanBurrito is quite suspicious because he keeps making arguments.

[Jase]

<snip>
One of those traditions is the random voting stage. It is generally accepted that in the beginning of a game, when there isn't much to work with, players vote each other randomly and joke around a bit, in the hope to get reactions, use those to get a read on players, and use the information gained in that way to really start the game.

Personally, I don't agree with that. It is my belief that, if you want to get the game started, the best way to do that is to take actions that actually help the game move forward. That may mean pushing small scumtells you have found. That may mean asking people game relevant questions in order to get people discussing something useful. It definately means that you should actively be looking for scum, rather then fooling around.
<snip>

But what actions do you take? In fooling around and drawing reactions from people such as you, you can get a general idea of who wishes to get the lynch first. For example, townies can spam for pages and pages without regret, but usually, the scum is the first to step in and accuse, just for the sake of getting the game started. And if no one is fooling around, what scumtells do you have to draw from? Absolutely nothing.

Secondly, I feel asking game relevant questions is much more beneficial to scum. By asking innocent-seeming questions that will ultimately result in an advantage to scum, scum can rolefish with minimalistic risk. The newer players who are unsure what questions to ask, however, are crucified because of what questions they end up asking in the end, and any old scum can cause a mislynch immediately. It's much harder for scum to decide what to do/how to act in the RVS than in a questions game, and I prefer to give Mafiosos the minimal of breathing room. Of course, since you find pursuing small scum-tells more important, here's me pursuing one:

Unvote, Vote: MichelSableHeart

.

Please explain why game relevant questions benefit the town more than the RVS does.

The bolded portion doesn't sit well with me, as it seems to discourage the asking of questions. also, though I don't find it scummy, I disagree when you say that townies can spam for pages while scum will try to get things started, but the point has already been made I think.

[Jase]

Also

Unvote

Now that things are getting more serious.

What was the point of this!?

My vote previously was a random vote, also I thought he had three votes(including mine) aand thaat thaat was entirely too much. Sorry, my "aa" key is a little screwy right now.

[MichelSableheart]

On my Sposh vote: I'm not voting Sposh because he is voting randomly during the RVS. I'm voting Sposh because

• He made a post containing nothing but a joke, which is unlikely to draw any relevant reactions,
• He was aware that his joke post didn't help the town, and
• his response shows he has no problems with the fact that his actions weren't helping the town.

Is that scumtell small? Definately. But even pressuring a small and mostly useless scumtell is better then voting completely arbitrary, IMO.

---

I see, I assumed we were all mostly around. Was your post from the day before then?

I try to post daily, but am not succeeding at the moment. Living in Europe, I see my posts coming from wednesday evening, friday morning, and now sunday morning.

---

But when players act "virtually" random, they offer something for others to respond to. And fooling around can also draw accusations from plenty of people, such as a person who found a part of fooling around they thought was scummy, no? These accusations at the beginning of the game have no more water than "you have a funny name", and more often than not, these are simply brushed off, and blatant OMGUS reccurs from both townie and scum. You will get responses from people no matter what you do, so it is generally better to take the RVS stage for what it is; making a ton of no-water accusations will only make you look worse.

The problem though, is that you are relying on other to do the responding. An accusation of "you have a funny name" can be ignored, as it doesn't imply mafia in any way, so it can indeed simply be brushed of. An accusation along the lines of "you were eager to start, bet you are exited about receiving the mafia role" is a valid accusation, and therefore requires a defense. It forces people to respond to you, rather then just giving them the option.

But how often do you see people fool around until deadline hits? In all the games you've been in/read, has this EVER happened? Eventually, someone's going to lurk, or someone will lose their patience... The RVS gives a lot of information to the town; not necessarily at first, but during later games. With a longer RVS and a few confirmed roles, scum might have quite the time hiding. The RVS is usually when scum choose to relax, which is when they make mistakes the most often.

I admit, I haven't seen people fool around till the deadline hits. But I also can't remember ever seeing anyone use the RVS to nail scum. In my experience, if players are voting randomly for three days, that's basically three days less to find the scum.

Questions about what players find scummy is practically giving the scum advice. If they see most of the town hates lurkers, guess what they know not to do? If they see that the town believes quickhammering is alright under the right circumstances, guess what they're going to do? Game relevant questions provides plenty of information, sure, but most of that information usually goes to the mafia.

Pro-town players should answer these questions in a pro-town way. If scum are acting according to the responses given, they will be acting in a way that is advanteous to town, and therefore will make it more likely that they'll be exposed. I prefer to make it perfectly clear to all players that quickhammering won't be accepted, rather then seeing a player quickhammer on day 1, and then spending day 2 discussing the lynch of what is possibly a clueless newbie.

---

So, I'm not sure who scum is but I think TheBeanBurrito is quite suspicious because he keeps making arguments.

I really don't understand what you are saying here, Star. Where has he been making arguments? And why is scum more likely to make arguments then town?

[StarOfTheShow]

Hmm. It's just he goes for people before we do anything and makes very sudden movements.
But oh well.
That's what I think anyway. My opinion.
:arrow:

I'm not sure if I'm getting better or worse at this game...

[StarOfTheShow]

I'm not sure why scum would make more arguments. Remember this is my first game.... Ever.

Replaced by Haylen. - Incog-Mod

[Incognito]

sxizzor has been prodded.

[TheBeanBurrito]

'K guys, sorry for the inactivity. I have band to blame for that.

Unvote

I voted for ya to get you in the game. Ain't no other reason.

[Sposh]

'K guys, sorry for the inactivity. I have band to blame for that.

Unvote

I voted for ya to get you in the game. Ain't no other reason.

Why would you unvote? Did you not want to stir up anymore discussion? Unvoting for the sake of unvoting isn't very helpful at all!

[TheBeanBurrito]

Uhh, because she's in the game now. Doesn't make sense to keep that vote anymore.

[Nachomamma8]

The problem though, is that you are relying on other to do the responding. An accusation of "you have a funny name" can be ignored, as it doesn't imply mafia in any way, so it can indeed simply be brushed of. An accusation along the lines of "you were eager to start, bet you are exited about receiving the mafia role" is a valid accusation, and therefore requires a defense. It forces people to respond to you, rather then just giving them the option.

True enough; however, I disagree that those early accusations require a defense. Normally, they result in being completely. On the rare occasion the accuser follows through with the occasion, however, it only ends up making the accuser look worse, and thus making a townie with the intent to end the RVS look scummy. I believe townies should not concern themselves with ending the RVS early; take, for example, Mastin. He is infamous for it, and yet, as a townie, it almost always ends up hurting the town in the end.

I admit, I haven't seen people fool around till the deadline hits. But I also can't remember ever seeing anyone use the RVS to nail scum. In my experience, if players are voting randomly for three days, that's basically three days less to find the scum.

The RVS is most useful when you have one confirmed scum or a couple of confirmed townies, for how to interact during the RVS is usually the interaction the scum focuses too much on, and hopefully, they overthink it all and leave a few gaping wide gaps.

Pro-town players should answer these questions in a pro-town way. If scum are acting according to the responses given, they will be acting in a way that is advanteous to town, and therefore will make it more likely that they'll be exposed. I prefer to make it perfectly clear to all players that quickhammering won't be accepted, rather then seeing a player quickhammer on day 1, and then spending day 2 discussing the lynch of what is possibly a clueless newbie.

But how do you answer a question in a protown way? By giving your opinion? Scum will act according to the responses given, but townies will as well, so that doesn't help a whole lot as far as exposing them goes. I do agree that players should be told what is generally considered anti-town or bad play.

[Nachomamma8]

Also

Unvote

Now that things are getting more serious.

What was the point of this!?

My vote previously was a random vote, also I thought he had three votes(including mine) aand thaat thaat was entirely too much. Sorry, my "aa" key is a little screwy right now.

Why are three votes way to much? It's not like a bandwagon with any substantiality is forming on him as we speak...

[sxizzor]

had a bit of virus trouble sorry for the not being here.

anyways, i'm new to traditional mafia and i'm a passive kind of guy so i'm mostly just going to watch other people and be reactive rather than active.

<b>unvote</b> for now, but i'm leaning towards sable.

[sxizzor]

unvote

could have sworn php boards used <>

Replaced by foilist13. - Incog-Mod