Mini 839 -- Mafia Invasion! (Game Over)

[Col.Cathart]

You want some more insight, and here you have it:

Firstly - Mass vanilla claim happened. I don't see any scenario in which Cruciare or Charter are not Vanilla Townies, considering their posts at the end of D2. DRK got modkilled for this stunt, and now everyone got a PM of a Vanilla, but what happened, cannot be erased from our memories.

Second - There's still possibility that Sotty and Imaginality are two scum who are now claiming to be neighbors, but for now, I'm going to believe them.

So that leaves Porekns, Sigma, Vi and Ojanen with '???' alignment.

Third - Ojanen got killed. IMO that's extremely surprising. I was pretty sure, either Cruciare or Charter will be the victim, but anyway, thank you scum for making my job easier.

Fourth - I'm a

Cop

, with a NOT GUILTY report on Porkens. I'm sure this is a correct result, as DRK turned out to be not guilty, just as my result on N1 said. After seeing that result, I planned to keep DRK in constant suspicion, so he won't be targeted at night, but unfortunately Imaginality's claim, and that disaster with role PM's ruined that plan. At least I got confirmation about my sanity.

Of course Porkens could be a Godfather, but for now I'll mark him as confirmed town.

So that leaves only Vi and Sigma as unconfirmed people here. Depending on the number of scum in this game, either one or both of them are scum. At this point, I'm going to assume, that only one scum is left. Mainly because of what TMJ said earlier.

From those two, Vi is IMO much more scummy, and if you'll iso TMJ's posts you'll see, that almost all of his posts have some connection with Vi.

vote: Vi

How's that for an insight?

[sigma]

I don't see any scenario in which Cruciare or Charter are not Vanilla Townies

Disagree. The mod said that everyone has the pm and the flavor, so I don't see them as confirmed.

I am also interested in who Sigma finds scummy now.

I think one of imaginality or vi is scum. Of those two, I find imaginality by far to be more likely scum. Why is he getting a free ride for blatant role-fishing? He was on the pops wagon D1, he tried to out the cop D2. Sotty believing in his innocence does not outweigh those two pieces of evidence, IMO.

Also, I'm not a cop.

[sigma]

Two things I forgot to do in the last post.

Cruciare and I are neighbors.

I have a gut town-read on Cruciare.

Vote: imaginality

[charter]

Are we massclaiming or something? What is going on here?

[Col.Cathart]

Disagree. The mod said that everyone has the pm and the flavor, so I don't see them as confirmed.

The problem is, we got it AFTER Cruciare and Charter already heavily implied that he has Vanilla role PM.

Cruciare and I are neighbors. I have a gut town-read on Cruciare.

Oh... Wait a minute. What about Sotty then? She confirmed that she and Imaginality are neighbors. And why do you have any read at all on Cruciare, if you know that he's your neighbor?

[Vi]

[after the Cop claim]

...and once again that changes things. I thought sigma was the Cop tbh.

A Framer and a Godfather in the same game, while technically possible and technically not bastardish, is not something you see often at all for good reason. So I'm willing to believe the innocent on Porkens.

Even after the mod clarification, I'm having a hard time seeing charter as something other than Vanilla Townie. Had it been common knowledge that everyone had the V. Townie Role PM, that sort of incident couldn't have started and been taken seriously by anyone.

Cut by Col.Cathart:

Oh, so charter's definitely V. Town then.

What's stiking is that these NKs seem... bizarre, tbh. I have to question the experience of the person who's making them.

And I'm being cut again by something... bizarre.

[the Neighbor claim]

sigma was the true swing vote in TMJ vs. pops, so I'm inclined to believe him.

What

that

means... is that I've been wrong about everything except pops >.>

Unvote: charter

I'm counting this as an unvote

-----

So... here's where I'm at for this five minutes.

charter is effectively Town.
sigma, who is already credible, makes a claim to be a Neighbor with someone that I've been giving too much credit to throughout.
Cathart is an un-counterclaimed Cop.
Porkens is investigated innocent.
Sotty and imaginality are both Neighbors as well.

This leaves... Sotty, imaginality, and Cruciare.

Question @sigma: Why do you have a gut Town-read on Cruciare?

[sigma]

Are we massclaiming or something? What is going on here?

Cruciare and I discussed claiming last night and decided that we would claim today, or at least that he would claim and I would claim as a consequence. It's the same thing, basically. I'm not privy to Cathart's reasons behind claiming.

Oh... Wait a minute. What about Sotty then? She confirmed that she and Imaginality are neighbors. And why do you have any read at all on Cruciare, if you know that he's your neighbor?

Cruciare's alignment has not been mod-confirmed to me. This is also the case for all of the other neighbors, is it not?

The problem is, we got it AFTER Cruciare and Charter already heavily implied that he has Vanilla role PM.

Check the 'we' in your sentence. How do you know when anyone else got PMs? Your assumption is faulty.

Anyway, this is dangerous territory. Timing of mod PMs is generally off-limits to talk about, no? In any case, I think the point that our mod has been repeatedly trying to make is that no one should be confirmed by their knowledge of the flavor.

Why do you have a gut Town-read on Cruciare?

My night-talk with him and his general method of play looks pro-town to me, despite reasons to suspect him, such as his advocacy for lynching pops D1.

[Col.Cathart]

Are we massclaiming or something? What is going on here?

I claimed, because I was pretty sure, we have a game in hand already. And then came the claim from Sigma. If he would post it earlier, I would hold that claim back, but now since it happens.

Sigma: I guess, you don't see my point, but you're right, that we should stop talking about it, or we'll break another rule in a minute.

And btw: Why didn't any of you Counterclaimed Imaginality's, immediately after he claimed?

[Sotty7]

Sotty, what did you and imaginality talk about last Night?

About the mod kill who we found scummy. You know the fun stuff.

Third - Ojanen got killed. IMO that's extremely surprising. I was pretty sure, either Cruciare or Charter will be the victim, but anyway, thank you scum for making my job easier.

I agree, I was suspicious of Ojanen so that takes away a distraction. Looking back I'm guessing the scum were taking a power role shot after her comment about vanilla claiming and what have you.

vote: Vi

How's that for an insight?

Yummy. I like it.

Two things I forgot to do in the last post.

Cruciare and I are neighbors.

I have a gut town-read on Cruciare.

Vote: imaginality

Wha...? Okay, that makes me wonder a little more about my gut on imaginality.

[after the Cop claim]

...and once again that changes things. I thought sigma was the Cop tbh.

So did I.

Cruciare's alignment has not been mod-confirmed to me. This is also the case for all of the other neighbors, is it not?

Yes.

Porkens reaction to DRK initial claim had him firmly on my town list as it is. Happy to believe the innocent result. CC, why did you investigate him and DRK?

I agree charter is town and Sigma trying to dismiss that is bugging me. Two sets of neighbors in a mini? This makes my gut crawl a little.

[Sotty7]

And btw: Why didn't any of you Counterclaimed Imaginality's, immediately after he claimed?

This is a good question

[Col.Cathart]

Sotty: DRK for obvious reason, as I was suspecting him on D1.

Why Porkens? When I continued my case on DRK at the beginning of day 2, I already knew, he was innocent. Besides trying to keep him looking suspicious to avoid NK on him, I wanted to see, who'll be the first happy one to join the wagon on innocent person. And that was Porkens, and then Imaginality. And that's why I investigated Porkens, as Imaginality claimed neighbor, and it looked like believable claim.

[charter]

Well, with a framer, there's going to be a cop. No one is countering, so Cathart is town to me. Still think it's Vi, and Cathart and Sotty's votes on Vi make me super happy with my vote.

[charter]

Oh, as for all this neighbor business, it's definitely possible that there are multiple sets of neighbors, but there has to be at least one scum in there, else there is no viable scumteam (unless we are lucky and there is just two scum, but I'm still assuming three). I suppose it's possible that one of the neighbors is a scumteam, but they both have an obvtown on them, and sigma's claim is just idiotic if they are scumbuddies.

Sotty7

charter

Cruciare

Vi

Porkens
Col.Cathart

sigma
imaginality

So yeah, once Vi is gone, I'm thinking Cruciare is the scumneighbor.

[sigma]

Why I didn't counterclaim imaginality: Didn't have time to post last weekend. Cruciare said he would have claimed if I had posted last weekend. Whenever Cruciare checks in, he can confirm his side.

I think charter is unconfirmed and Sotty trying to dismiss that is bugging me. (See what I did there?)

No one's answered my question -- why is imaginality allowed to get away with trying to out the cop? It's a ballsy move, but I think it's scummy, whatever his arguments to the contrary. I certainly didn't see vi as obv-cop yesterday and I question why imaginality was thinking about it in the first place.

[charter]

Where was imaginality rolefishing? I don't remember. If he is fishing, that's really scummy.

[sigma]

Here.[/url]

[Vi]

@Sotty the 7th: What do you think of my reason for believing sigma?

sigma was the true swing vote in TMJ vs. pops, so I'm inclined to believe him.

[charter]

Hmm, you're right, that is fishing. And really blatantly as well. However, I'm not sure it makes him scum (though he shouldn't have done it). It seems, to me, that he is more likely to be town ensuring that Vi isn't setting up a good fakeclaim later, as opposed to scum trying to find the cop.

Vi's response to it is questionable as well. If someone had asked me if I was cop, I'd immediately vote them and call for their lynch. Vi, instead, unvotes imaginality.

[Vi]

Hmm, you're right, that is fishing. And really blatantly as well. However, I'm not sure it makes him scum (though he shouldn't have done it). It seems, to me, that he is more likely to be town ensuring that Vi isn't setting up a good fakeclaim later, as opposed to scum trying to find the cop.

Vi's response to it is questionable as well. If someone had asked me if I was cop, I'd immediately vote them and call for their lynch. Vi, instead, unvotes imaginality.

You seem to have

no idea

of the double standard you're using here.

Sotty, could you please explain your vote on me?

[charter]

No. Instead of applying the blanket logic of "all rolefishers are scum" I looked at what he did and decided his rolefishing was a terrible idea, but unlikely to come from scum. I think if he was scum, he would have tried to get the cop to say something like "oh, I don't think Vi is cop".

It also helps that in response to his fishing, you unvoted, like you were trying to get him off your back or something.

[Sotty7]

Why I didn't counterclaim imaginality: Didn't have time to post last weekend. Cruciare said he would have claimed if I had posted last weekend. Whenever Cruciare checks in, he can confirm his side.

This is extremely lame. You were posting after the claim, why didn't you counterclaim ASAP?

I think charter is unconfirmed and Sotty trying to dismiss that is bugging me. (See what I did there?)

No one is saying charter is confirmed, a bunch of us just happen to think he is townie. There is nothing a scum hates more is townies thinking other townies are town. Add this with your almost desperate plea that DRK be mod killed and your town status has been downgraded slightly in my eyes.

@Sotty the 7th: What do you think of my reason for believing sigma?

sigma was the true swing vote in TMJ vs. pops, so I'm inclined to believe him.

I'm with you here. This is the reason I think Sigma is more likely town than scum. However, his latest posts/actions make me wonder.

Lets be clear, my top three suspects over night were: Vi, Cruciare and Ojanen with an extreme outside chance of Sigma being scum, imaginality can confirm this is.

So with Ojanen dead that leaves me with you and Cruciare.

Sotty, could you please explain your vote on me?

The fact you are not the cop while dropping several soft claim hints. The complete no sell of DRK's claims here and here

That said I'm starting to think that I might want to lynch Cruciare first.

[Vi]

No. Instead of applying the blanket logic of "all rolefishers are scum" I looked at what he did and decided his rolefishing was a terrible idea, but unlikely to come from scum. I think if he was scum, he would have tried to get the cop to say something like "oh, I don't think Vi is cop".

And apparently I didn't think of this, or, I don't know, realize fully well that I was dropping potential hints of extra knowledge and thus understand WHY people may have thought I was the Cop?

If I'm scum, my play in this game has been suicidal. Intentionally so.

It also helps that in response to his fishing, you unvoted, like you were trying to get him off your back or something.

Why would I want to do that? imaginality never voted for me or even expressed suspicion of me.

-----

The fact you are not the cop while dropping several soft claim hints.

I'm not the Cop. However, I (thought I) deduced three things that I didn't want to pull out unless I thought it would go somewhere.
*Sotty7 is a power role, or scum.
*sigma is most likely the Cop.
*Cruciare is almost certainly the Doctor.
This is why I've been on Cruciare's side the whole time - his play is textbook Doc play. And that's also why I think the scum can't be that experienced for not offing him considering that there have been a few people (DRK and myself, OTH) who were pretty explicit that they had veiled reasons for wanting him alive.

The complete no sell of DRK's claims here and here

You don't think that the point about the name of the Vanilla role held

any

merit? I must disagree, and surely you would not as well--

Hrmm... The football stuff is what made me say DRK wasn't the lynch, but I see charter's point about name claim now. Not good.

Yet post 543 is more of the role PM but without the true name (at least the one in my PM) Then Sigma posts and says another name that is different to mine.

Incidentally, sigma (apparently?) didn't know the name of the V. Townie role in this game either... which paired with his claim makes sense.

[Sotty7]

How is Cruciare's play text book doc play? What do you think of the neighbor claim now?

[charter]

Ok, Vi is trying to argue his play is too bad to be scum, which A) is completely invalid B) isn't a reason not to lynch him and C) completely invalid.

Vi, why are you talking about Cruciare being a doc? Where is that going, other than a doctor claiming?

Why would I want to do that? imaginality never voted for me or even expressed suspicion of me.

He said in his post "I'm[imag] more worried that he[Vi] might be scum setting up a fake claim". His entire post looked like he was about to shift and start questioning you.

[sigma]

This is extremely lame. You were posting after the claim, why didn't you counterclaim ASAP?

I was thinking about the DRK flavor stuff, not CC'ing imaginality. I wasn't really thinking in terms of "counter-claiming" either -- I figured two sets of neighbors was perfectly plausible in a mini setup.

No one is saying charter is confirmed, a bunch of us just happen to think he is townie. There is nothing a scum hates more is townies thinking other townies are town.

If you think he's town, that's fine -- I was under the impression that you thought he was confirmed town.

Add this with your almost desperate plea that DRK be mod killed and your town status has been downgraded slightly in my eyes.

Desperate plea to have him mod-killed? Wow. That's blatant misrepresentation. Here's what I

actually

said:

I don't know how out of bounds flavor quoting is, but I would consider it violating the rules we've been given.

[...]

@Mod: Can we get a ruling on all of this flavor from the PM quoting?

So:

A. I never asked for him to be mod-killed.
B. Rules violations don't always result in mod-kills.
C. What I actually said doesn't sound especially desparate to me.

You were right about DRK and I wasn't. That's a perfectly acceptable reason to downgrade my towniness, but the reasons you're stating right now just aren't.