The Dark Goma Mafia: Massacre of the Cloth (Game Over)

[vollkan]

Vote: Jordan

for a semi-valid reason.

[vollkan]

Hey, guys, I'm the Jester-Vigilante. Optimal play here is to lynch me D1 before I take my own life in the night and win before the rest of you. Trust me, I'm the kind of Jester that won't win when strung up, so vote away.

Let's assume this is true. Why the heck would you reveal it?

today was not a good RVS

What would make it good?

[vollkan]

I need a good reason for jumping on an early bandwagon?

What are you looking for with the wagon than?

Nothing much really, but its not any worse than any other random vote.

It could have easily escalated on essentially nothingness as you urself agree your vote held no real weight. Thus leading to an innocent being forced to claim or even lynched under poor circumstances. I'm surprised you just mindlessly went along with this. Once a wagon gains speed it can easily snowball out of control with a few poor town players adding their voice and scum also backing it. Which are you?

This is just silly.

Let's assume a random wagon gets to L-1 (which isn't a bad thing imo). Unless they were an idiot, nobody would claim in that situation - and only scum would demand that the person claim.

The only risk is that a person will misread the votecount and hammer by accident - or that scum will hammer and claim to have done so by accident - but that's easily dealt with by not accepting such an excuse on policy grounds.

I would vote you now, but I see there have been 6 pages of text, so I will wait.

A random wagon vote can't be entirely random....so what were you trying to achieve by wagoning? Or get from the wagon itself?

Again, silly and overparanoid. I don't know about you, but I don't approach the random stage with a set strategy in mind. A random wagon can go many ways, depending on responses. It's basically just a matter of putting your toe in the water and seeing what happens.

Ok, after some thoughts, I decided to do it. Claim: I'm a miller. I was hesitant to do it, as I have no apparent reason to claim, but I do. I've learned that millers can help investigative roles by providing a "safe" test. And it's better if I claim early on.

Where did you learn that?

Ok, after some thoughts, I decided to do it. Claim: I'm a miller. I was hesitant to do it, as I have no apparent reason to claim, but I do. I've learned that millers can help investigative roles by providing a "safe" test. And it's better if I claim early on.

(Something tells me that I'll probably end up lynched, but still, I must do what I think it's best for town.)

vote: snow_bunny

millers need lynched

Votes need justification

(ie. why should we lynch millers?)

You know what they say when you 'assume'

No.

Now you answer

my

question:

Hey, guys, I'm the Jester-Vigilante. Optimal play here is to lynch me D1 before I take my own life in the night and win before the rest of you. Trust me, I'm the kind of Jester that won't win when strung up, so vote away.

Let's assume this is true. Why the heck would you reveal it?

Fessing for what? You act like I did something wrong... :/

This isn't a function of a simple mistake and I find your apologizing for it very offputting.

1.) His statement makes it very clear he didn't read the opening post.
2.) Further, due to the confirmation mechanics he was forced to read his PM
3.) From that AND from the opening post it is clear what the win condition is.

Thus

1.) His not knowing said win condition is testament to not having said win condition.

Maybe I am just having a brainfart, but isn't there a gaping hole in this logic: If you hadn't read the opening post and you received a Council PM, you might well think you were of non-town alignment. "The Council" does sound vaguely sinister.

[vollkan]

However, we've got some wagoners with some splainin' to do.

Yup, definitely.

I can understand how a person might initially misunderstand what DN said, but it really surprises me how many people jumped on the wagon when it hit me almost immediately why the logic underpinning it was just completely wrong

unvote

Just needed a little... push

As Spyrex said, lurking + self-vote = *headdesk*. Don't do that again.

[vollkan]

why should we lynch millers?

Should we not? Don't make me get kublai in here.

The general presumption is that you don't lynch somebody without overwhelming good reason. I've never seen an overwhelmingly good reason for lynching claimed millers. If you have one, I'm all ears.

Where does it say what is town anywhere? Is it listed that Council=town? If so, point it out to me please.

It should say it in your PM, scum.

unvote

Vote: DeathNote

Explain this stark. Now. Are you mafia or 3rd party?

unvote; vote: Stark

I like this better.

Unvote, Vote: Stark

this is amazing.

So DN made a mistake by not reading background, and then Stark agreed w/ him and called him stupid.

I had thought DN was joking when he said that, but Stark's response was obv serious.

vote Stark

FTR, I don't disagree with your and others reason for voting Stark, but I'm not joining the wagon yet because I think I can see another, less obvious, logic hole.

Unvote, Vote: Snow_Bunny, because I also am weary of that miller claim.

Should that be "wary"?

Anyhoo, explain why lynching millers is a good thing

When I first read my role PM and it said and it said I was aligned with the council, I wasn't sure if I was town until I looked closely at my role PM and didn't see any scum partners and noticed my town looking win condition. So I don't blame Death Note for his unsureness, and if anything, it makes me want to believe that he's town.

I really don't like the "It should say the council is town in your role PM" comments from Snow_Bunny and stark. Nothing in my role PM outright states that the council is town.

Unvote, Vote: Snow_Bunny

, because I also am weary of that miller claim.

Thats dumb. Why would Snow Bunny-scum claim miller, when she was highly unlikely to be investigated, and it would put her under loads of heat? She's pretty well confirmed town imo.

I very much disagree with this. I've heard plenty of talk of KK winning a game thanks to a miller claim. What makes you think that all throughout the game, no cop would ever want to investigate her? She's hardly confirmed town.

I'll also second vollkan's question towards Snow_Bunny, because the way she worded her claim bothers me. Where did you learn that millers should claim early on?

No, Vaya, it makes no sense. Think in terms of Reward vs Risk. What the hell is the merit in claiming something that may well get you lynched Day 1 or Day 2, with the prospect of not getting in trouble if there is a cop alive at endgame. I dont think Snow Bunny is anyone's top investigation choice in terms of experience. Look back at the responses to Kise's claim of a guilty. There was speculation about why he would target somebody inexperienced.

Snow Bunny is obvtown. You have 1 post in which to remove your vote from her, or you earn mine.

BM

Miller claiming is a nulltell, to slight towntell. Snow's reason for claiming isn't the main one (which imo is the prevention of a cop outing itself on a miller investigation), but it's valid enough.

Then, after Volkan asked me about the logic I opted to go waaay back and look at it contextually and then cried a little inside. Because, really, one or two people could make the mistake I did but that many? No.

Agreed. (Did I miss the 'splaining by people?)

I should mention, my willingness to accept your actions as a mistake is heavily influenced by the way you reacted to me: ie. immediately admitting error. In my experience, scum would have been more likely to either argue back or (more likely given how fundamentally flawed the wagon was) wait and see whether anybody else tried arguing against me.

However, this belies the other issue this game is having:

Condense. Your. Posts.

There is no reason we've got this many posts this game. Its not a race, and if it were it's a race to failure. Make sure its relevant, and then post it.

/agree

Over-posting is just as anti-town as lurking

Spy, why so sure you were wrong about DeathNote?

Are you even reading this?

Spy didn't say he was sure about DN - but he is (quite rightly) convinced that the reasons for the wagon are bullshit (for reasons I gave).

Spy, didn't Yaw's game teach you anything about speed of wagons? I got run up pretty quickly as scum.

GOOD IDEA!

Let's run crappy, baseless wagons on people; that's sure to catch scum.

Unvote, Vote: Kmd

[vollkan]

I really don't propose much. I just leave that to your own opinions. Tell me, would have been better if I had keep my role for myself?

I'm just saying, if any investigative role wants to test out their alignment, then investigate me.

If not, then just don't. Then, if you want to lynch me for that, then go ahead, that'll confirm me (though it will be useless). Why do you cling so much to that claim? Would you think I'm scum if I wouldn't have claimed?

{Bold mine}
Investigate, but don't vig. Little too much of a survive-at-all-cost mentality for me. Not town.

I don't like the way you are spinning what she said.

I've quoted the bolding you made above because I think it is important that you didn't bold the next sentence: "If not, then just don't."

She is not, contrary to your accusation, directing any power roles. I think it's perfectly valid to say what she has said.

See the game I linked. KK was found guilty on a N0 investigation and just happened to claim miller immediately (don't ask me how he got that lucky). He survived to endgame and won because of this. I realize it is only one game, but it was pretty highly praised move, and I think it is reason enough to shift the site meta back toward lynching claimed millers well before endgame.

*blink*

In that game, you have a fairly exceptional array of circumstances combining: odds of any given player being investigated, odds of scum deciding to claim miller, odds of that particular scum member being selected as the claimer. In short, it's not only just one game; it's also an exceptional case.

Volkan, I just don't understand why Spy backed off so quickly. You gave an excuse for DeathNote and Spy just bought it without seeming to really think about much aside from the speed of the wagon. Not all speedwagons are on town, which Spy just saw in a game where we were scumbuddies.

As Spy has already said, your interpretation of what happened here is wrong.

And that's why it's so easy for scum to hid behind a miller claim.

No.

Miller claim has the advantage for scum of effective protection from cop investigation.

It has the disadvantages of:
1) Making many people more likely to want to lynch you (Ironically, the more the meta veers in favour of lynching millers, the stronger this factor becomes);
2) Preventing other fake-claims, which both:
a) Prevents scum from saving self (and possibly causing a CC) by a PR claim; and
b) Prevents scum CCing a genuine PR claim

many posts allow for an easier slip, I believe.

What does this mean?

[vollkan]

I really don't propose much. I just leave that to your own opinions. Tell me, would have been better if I had keep my role for myself?

I'm just saying, if any investigative role wants to test out their alignment, then investigate me.

If not, then just don't. Then, if you want to lynch me for that, then go ahead, that'll confirm me (though it will be useless). Why do you cling so much to that claim? Would you think I'm scum if I wouldn't have claimed?

{Bold mine}
Investigate, but don't vig. Little too much of a survive-at-all-cost mentality for me. Not town.

I don't like the way you are spinning what she said.

I've quoted the bolding you made above because I think it is important that you didn't bold the next sentence: "If not, then just don't."

She is not, contrary to your accusation, directing any power roles. I think it's perfectly valid to say what she has said.

Ok, after some thoughts, I decided to do it. Claim: I'm a miller. I was hesitant to do it, as I have no apparent reason to claim, but I do.

I've learned that millers can help investigative roles by providing a "safe" test.

And it's better if I claim early on.

Why?

The reason I claimed was to help investigative cops try out their sanity

(if any, and to avoid a lynch based on an investigation on me). I already give you the warn, still, if you don't believe me, you might as well lynch me and confirm it (and waste a precious lynch on a townie).

In other games with many investigative roles. It helped them clear their sanity.

In another game, a miller didn't claim and thus was killed on D2, and the whole town demanded that player to know why didn't he claim early on.

That's why I'm telling you, you can lynch me whenever you want, but I claimed for the sake of town.

If any investigating role wishes to confirm its sanity, just check me,

and if you still don't believe me, you can easily lynch me tomorrow (and thus reveal that I'm just a townie that feels guilty.)

What? She slightly took it back the fifth time she mentioned she wanted to be investigated? Well that means that Kublai Khan is totally spinning her words out of context, the cad.[/sarcasm]

Thank you for assisting me in making my point.

Nowhere is she directing a power role. She's claimed empirical evidence for it helping sanity confirmation, so it's entirely valid for her to say that if a cop wishes to confirm itself, they can investigate her.

This is a classic case of people latching onto a scum motivation and ignoring the non-scum one.

No.

Miller claim has the advantage for scum of effective protection from cop investigation.

It has the disadvantages of:
1) Making many people more likely to want to lynch you (Ironically, the more the meta veers in favour of lynching millers, the stronger this factor becomes);

Erm, no. The current meta is that millers that claim in their first few posts are free to run amock. This is what scum takes advatange of.

If by "run amock" you mean "not lynched instantly", then yes.

But whenever I see miller claims the claimer always has at least some proportion of players wanting to lynch them, and another portion (rightly) becoming more amenable to a lynch (because, at the very least, you know they aren't a PR)

It's a risk I've seen many a scum take.

I've never seen it, but I accept that it happens. That doesn't in any way justify a miller lynching policy; surely the best course of action is simply to play as normal and, if they are scummy, lynch them.

[vollkan]

It's a risk I've seen many a scum take.

I've never seen it, but I accept that it happens. That doesn't in any way justify a miller lynching policy; surely the best course of action is simply to play as normal and, if they are scummy, lynch them.

You've seen it... You've seen Albert B. Rampage do it. Remember?

Which game?

This is a big game. Wait until you're investigated and found guilty. IF that happens, which it may never. Claiming Day 1 in a mini is an iffy move, but in a large theme game with a huge number of players, it is mischief-making.

I don't understand what you mean here.

I'm in too many mafias, to tell the truth. And to make my ability more clear, I get to hug somebody. And then explode. At the same time.

You were just asked why you claimed; this doesn't explain it.

Volkan, rather than tell me I'm wrong, tell me HOW I'm wrong.

I'm assuming you are referencing this:

Volkan, I just don't understand why Spy backed off so quickly. You gave an excuse for DeathNote and Spy just bought it without seeming to really think about much aside from the speed of the wagon. Not all speedwagons are on town, which Spy just saw in a game where we were scumbuddies.

As Spy has already said, your interpretation of what happened here is wrong.

Spy did explain it, but whatever.

To begin with, I'll quote from one of Spy's earlier posts which summarises the logic of the wagon:

1.) His statement makes it very clear he didn't read the opening post.
2.) Further, due to the confirmation mechanics he was forced to read his PM
3.) From that AND from the opening post it is clear what the win condition is.

Thus

1.) His not knowing said win condition is testament to not having said win condition.

Basically, Premise 1) contradicts Conclusion 1). If DN hadn't read the opening post, as indeed the wagoners accepted, he couldn't possibly have been able to deduce from his role PM that Council was Town (indeed, the very phrase "The Council" would seem reasonably lead one to the opposite conclusion).

In short, far from indicating scumminess, DN's statements actually make it more likely he is of Council alignment - because he showed knowledge of what a Council PM says.

I think... that killing me would not benefit the town. I need to survive at least one night. However, your the bomb so it is up to you in the end.

This makes no sense.

Think about it: When DN was at L-1 (or L-2...however high the wagon on him got) he self-voted in anger and basically had a general hissy-fit. If he actually had some super-special power that meant he was of utility to the rest of the town if he lived more than one night, he would have claimed it back then.

This confuses me, though, because as I just said, the whole "Is Council Town?" fiasco had me thinking he was indeed Council.

....and now I see Jordan has bombed him.

If a cop wants to check their sanity, they will investigate themselves.

I was under the impression that there is a general rule against self-investigations in the same way that there is a general rule against self-protects by doctors.

[vollkan]

Volkan, yeah, you guys were right I guess.

*headdesk*

You shouldn't have needed a reveal to understand this. See, from where I am sitting, I proved way back in my first attack on the wagon that it was pure and utter rubbish. You've kept labouring the point - only now seemingly throwing in the towel because of the death.

So, I have a question for you: Why did you not think my rebuttal of the DN wagon was sufficient to justify its dismantle?

[vollkan]

Well, just an advice for those who want to vig me. If there's going to be any vigging for me, at least do it during the day, when it's untraceable.

Do you seriously mean that???

so seriously answer this.

since just a few pages ago you were callin for investigative roles to look at you when they can be tracked, but omg don't kill me at nite cause you'll get tracked??

you are scum and need lynched,

More votes fo snow please

Which would be valid....except she didn't tell investigative roles to look at her. She said that if an investigative role wanted to test its sanity it could target her (which, I note, is just as vulnerable to being tracked as the suggestion that the investigative role target itself).

Also, beyond that, the notion that someone who seems newbish might have a case of cognitive dissonance isn't particularly radical.

Volkan, it didn't hurt anything that I was wrong. We didn't lynch him.

This is irrelevant and is essentially just an emotive pull to throw chaff around my questioning.

I couldn't follow why you thought DeathNote was town, and TBH, still can't.

Well, no wonder, because the thrust of my point was not that I thought DN was town. Go on, explain to me why the wagon makes sense.

It's not important anymore though.

I'll be the judge of that.

[vollkan]

Volkan, *shrug*, it looked like a slip.

Yes, if you were paying no attention initially, but then I proved that it wasn't.

So, either you ignored what I said, you disagreed (your lack of any rebuttal speaks volumes on this, however), or you didn't understand (in which case, it baffles me that you wouldn't have piped up at the time).

Q1) You seem very wary of Kmd. Do you think he is scum, or just somewhat dellusional?

So far, I think he is scummy (see above for the crux of my problem with his play regarding SB), but I am not settled so I am trying to question him.

[vollkan]

[quote="Kmd"]
Scum:
Benmage

Maybe scum:
SpyreX
LlamaFluff
Vaya
Tubby
alvinz

Not sure:
Cass
SocioPath
DrippingGoofball
KaleiÐoscøpe
Rosso Carne

Maybe town:
Kublai Khan
Plum
Papa Zito
stark
populartajo
Kise
Battle Mage
Snow_Bunny
dramonic
vollkan

Town:
Sajin
VP Baltar
milkshake
Kmd4390 [/quote]

Why do you think benmage is scum?

[quote="Kmd"] I "piped up" when Spy went with what you said. I didn't understand how you "proved" anything and still don't. [/quote]

Why was DN scummy in your eyes?

[quote="Kmd"]
What is wrong with my play regarding Snow? She hasn't looked scummy so far. [/quote]

Sorry, I meant DN. I had them confused in my head.

[vollkan]

Ben is scum because of how he reacted to my fake kill and because he started this game by spamming (see above for why this matters) right after Yaw's game ended.

No, I'm not saying Ben is lurking. In that game, Yaw made a big deal about the amount/length of posts being too much which was the entire reason, according to Yaw, that people lurked. So what could someone take from the Mod's thoughts at endgame there? That spamming helps scum. What might someone do as scum right after a game's Mod says that? Spam. What has Ben done, or at least did right in the beginning of the game? Spam.

Logic fail right there.

Spamming helps scum. Yes.

Does that mean that scum will be more likely that town to spam, sufficiently more so to justify suspicion? No.

Please correct me if I am wrong on this in Ben's case, because I haven't meta'd him, but I am going to say that odds are he spams a lot just as a personal trait. Players post at different rates. Simply because spamming (and, at the other end of the scale, lurking) benefit scum doesn't mean they are scummy.

DN was scummy because I thought he slipped. I didn't see how he could have not known if he was town after the game had already started. He should have asked the Mod to clarify if he wasn't sure.

Okay, that much is fine. Now for stage 2 of my questioning:

Assume you are a player who has not read the page 1 opening post. You receive a Council PM. What would lead you to think that you were town?

[vollkan]

Volkan, the point comes from a game Ben and I were just in where spam and walls hurt the town pretty badly and the Mod made it clear in postgame.

I don't see Ben spam normally.

Did Ben spam in that game?
Do you think it is meaningful that here he only spammed in the RVS?

To answer your last question, I'd check with the Mod if I didn't know my role. The Mod would answer and THAT would be what would lead me to think I was town.

What if you didn't check with the mod?

I tend to have a higher post rate.

Why do you think that is?

[vollkan]

^ Massive QFT

I was going for the "question KMD slowly until he shows the absurdity of his own position" approach, but Plum's basically blown him out of the water just now.

[vollkan]

From my experience with ben, this is true. I don't know what kmd's experience with him is, but in Yaw's game he did the same thing....so I don't see how it is a scumtell here suddenly.

@KMD: What has your experience with Ben been? The reason I ask is that unless you have actually got a good reason for thinking that Ben's play here makes him more likely to be scum, there's a much greater likelihood that what you are doing here is simply trying to cruise through by riding on anti-town (and not 'scummy') behaviour.

Did Ben spam in that game?
Do you think it is meaningful that here he only spammed in the RVS?

He was pretty active, but provided content in most of his posts (there was SOME banter with BM).

I asked you two questions. You answered one. Please answer the second question.

I sure as hell wouldn't come in making a post like "is council town?" when I know I'm council. Of course you are expected to know, so if I was unsure, I'd fear the possibility that I'm scum and wouldn't make that mistake.

Under what circumstances would you ask "Is Council town?" (ie. what would need to motivate you to ask that question).

Plum, I called it how I saw it.

^ Trite

When I read DeathNote's post, it looked like obvslip.

And yet, you still haven't explained why.

I saw Volkan disagree, and figured someone would, so no big deal.

So, in short, you didn't bother reading what I said and just dismissed me as a dissenter. I'd love to know how such an approach benefits the town.

And here you are running Ben up the flagpole for RVS spam.

Then Spy, who had voted DN, completely changed his stance. So I decided to look into that.

Let's be clear. You still didn't try to look into my reasons. You were attacking Spy for an apparent backflip.

Knowing now that DN was town, it's Spy's turnaround that bothers me.

INDEED! THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION FOR SPY CHANGING HIS POSITION BECAUSE OF SOUND LOGIC IS THAT HE MUST BE SCUM! ONLY SCUM USE LOGIC!

I know Volkan's points about DN were legitimate. How do I know? DN IS ALREADY DEAD.

No.

If he wasn't dead, my points would still be valid. In fact, my points would still be valid even if he had flipped scum.

The only difference his town flip makes is that it gives me the right to feel superior.

I support the KMD lynch, he has changed stances so many times today. He was on a bandwagon of a now dead town as well (it might of even been both of them). Not to mention he always seems to get scum roles when he plays with me.

unvote; vote: KMD

Hm? I agree that Kmd's changed stances (I didn't have enough time last night to do a thorough analysis of his changing opinions on you, for example) don't make me think any more of him, but being on the bandwagon of a now-dead Townie is not, in and of itself, a scumtell, and the fact that you seem to equate it with a clear scumtell makes me twitch a smidgen.

Plum earns another QFT.

[vollkan]

I need to look at this kmd thing closer, as on the surface I support a tubby or even a cass lynch before his, without too much hesitation.

The kmd lynch seems fine, tho i'd prefer DGB, Vaya, Stark or Battle Mage.

Ben, why did you make this post?

[vollkan]

I need to look at this kmd thing closer, as on the surface I support a tubby or even a cass lynch before his, without too much hesitation.

The kmd lynch seems fine, tho i'd prefer DGB, Vaya, Stark or Battle Mage.

Ben, why did you make this post?

To restate why I was voting kmd, but to also illustrate hes not my first choice, if that wasnt clear because the last time i mentioned something on it was sometime ago...

Why?

You just reiterated

what

you said and thereby dodged my questino. I wanted to know

why

you said it.

[vollkan]

I need to look at this kmd thing closer, as on the surface I support a tubby or even a cass lynch before his, without too much hesitation.

The kmd lynch seems fine, tho i'd prefer DGB, Vaya, Stark or Battle Mage.

Ben, why did you make this post?

To restate why I was voting kmd, but to also illustrate hes not my first choice, if that wasnt clear because the last time i mentioned something on it was sometime ago...

Why?

You just reiterated

what

you said and thereby dodged my questino. I wanted to know

why

you said it.

I answered why....w.t.f? I didnt dodge it....so answer my question, of why you asked why i made that post.

You didn't answer.

In your first post, you said:

The kmd lynch seems fine, tho i'd prefer DGB, Vaya, Stark or Battle Mage.

When I asked you to explain this, you said:

To restate why I was voting kmd, but to also illustrate hes not my first choice, if that wasnt clear because the last time i mentioned something on it was sometime ago...

Which is basically just the previous post with "To restate..." stuck on at the beginning.

To help shape your answers, two questions:
1) Why did you feel the need to remind us that KMD is not your first choice?
2) Why did you make the initial post in response to a post of LlamaFluff?

[vollkan]

To help shape your answers, two questions:
1) Why did you feel the need to remind us that KMD is not your first choice?
2) Why did you make the initial post in response to a post of LlamaFluff?

1. I wanted to.

Tautological answer. If you didn't want to say it, you wouldn't have done so. That doesn't explain why you did it.

2. I was just sharing a similar view...The quote didnt have too much worth with it.

You weren't expressing a similar view though. Llamafluff said:

I need to look at this kmd thing closer, as on the surface I support a tubby or even a cass lynch before his, without too much hesitation.

Which has no relation to what you said.

It looks to me like you were basically trying to persuade Llama to accept a lynch which he has professed to consider sub-optimal on the basis that you also had to 'compromise'

[vollkan]

Tautological answer. If you didn't want to say it, you wouldn't have done so. That doesn't explain why you did it.

The why, was to keep everyone uptodate. Not the biggest deal, but my reasoning. I think it refreshing for people to restate their opinions if a long period of time elapses. People might've only read my recent spam argument and forgotten where my views on the game in general were....Hence the restatement...I dont know why you didn't like that answer. I guess from now on your questions can get be answered with colors.

But it wasn't your views on the 'game in general'. It was you saying that you were compromising over KMD. You didn't remind us why you thought the other people were more suspicious, or beyond that who you don't suspect, etc.

You gave us your position on something very specific (ie. the fact that you are compromising) and you did so in the context of responding to a post by somebody who had expressed uncertainty about a KMD lynch.

There's also another issue here which I haven't raised yet which is that the "X lynch is not my first preference" post is a scum attempt at a get-out-of-jail-free. It's just not a post that has any point otherwise. If you sincerely think another wagon is preferable then argue for it.

I need to look at this kmd thing closer, as on the surface I support a tubby or even a cass lynch before his, without too much hesitation.

The kmd lynch seems fine, tho i'd prefer DGB, Vaya, Stark or Battle Mage.

So I have to back down quickly now?

One of my suspects is laughing at my pushed, one is AWOL. Neither of those things is going to make me drop it.

where did i suggest you have to back down??

Sounded like "I have comprimsied, why cant you" when you look at the placement of your vote, and your suspicions.

Which has no relation to what you said.

It looks to me like you were basically trying to persuade Llama to accept a lynch which he has professed to consider sub-optimal on the basis that you also had to 'compromise'

I dont agree with these interpretations. It simply sounded like he was getting his thoughts down. Vollkan's line of interrogation is ridiculously contrived.

FoS: Vollkan

BM

See above. I think it's a simplistic analysis to say "He was putting his thoguhts down, end of story"

[vollkan]

It's just not a post that has any point otherwise.

HUZZAH The point...welcome to it. The post wasn't a game winning one. Hell call it fluff for all I care. I was putting my thoughts down, thats all. Period. Battle has the right read.

Okay. We're at an impasse here with regards to things, and I've argued my point as much as is possible. I don't exactly like your explanation that you just decided to make the post for the sake of it, but it's not lynchworthy on its own by any means, so I'm just filing it as a minor scumtell for now.

While I can see your point, I disagree somewhat when it comes to large games, especially in the early going. Right now it takes 14 to lynch somebody, surely somebody is going to have to compromise somewhere out of that group. Now, compromising 4 people down your list is an entirely different argument that can be made, but I dont' think the act of being willing to compromise in and of itself makes one scummy in the early days of a game this size.

I wasn't suggesting that being willing to compromise was a bad thing.

My problem with Ben is the way that, for little discernible reason, he felt the need to highlight to the rest of us that he was compromising.

Claim:
Musician. I can play music to someone at night. If they like the music, they reach a spiritual state which leaves them unable to do anything, but also protects them. If they don't like the music, they kill themselves over it. So I'm a JK/vig and don't know which when I target someone.

Unvote

Vaya, why did you unvote in your most recent post?

I was unvoting stark because I'm probably going to switch my vote to kmd.

In fact,

Vote: Kmd

, especially because I agree with Spy's suggestion.

Did you suspect Kmd before claim?

Why does Spy's suggestion warrant voting him now?

Fine. I'm a NK-Immune Lyncher Survivor.

Good game.

I don't know who the SK is yet. I guarantee that I can later though. .

And the advantage for you in telling us this is what? Assuming you aren't the SK yourself (which is looking pretty damn likely tbh), doesn't you revealing that you have some guaranteed identifying info on them pretty much mark you?

[vollkan]

Plum, the Rodent Tamer is the SK. My Role PM specifically says so.

Populartajo,

The Rodent Tamer, With the Council

, throat slit Night 1

Err... the hell?

And the death flavour for KK was:

Kublai Khan, The Scribe, With the Converters, Devoured by many tiny little mouths Night 1

The "many tiny little mouths" thing makes me think of a pack of rats, which would mean "rats" are not converters and would fit with kmd's statement. However, Tajo was Rodent Tamer and was town

Kmd had no reason to lie to us about his flavour, so I guess the only conclusion which can be drawn is bastard moddery

Also, why are people concluding tajo must have been a vig?

I am going to need to reread tubby to make a decision, so expect a pbp soon.

[vollkan]

I am an Alchemist. Each night I can give someone one of my myriad of potions (and there's alot of them). Of course they're all nice and colored... but not labeled. So I have no idea what my potions can do (but based on colors I can take somewhat of a guess).

Last night I tried to give my BLACK potion to SB. Yea, thats right, I tried to (I hoped) kill the miller.

Yet, somehow I killed myself. Which means either SB did some kinda reflexive business or something truly fishy is going on.

Unvote, Vote: Snow_Bunny

I made it pretty clear I did something to SB and the coy act doesn't do any good.

Hmm? SB wasn't exactly coy about it; since she admitted that something happened.

Well, yes. Something interesting and rather odd happened to me last night. Why you ask?

Since you yourself don't know what effect the potion had on SB (and I assume there was an effect because she said something happened to her), I don't think you can hold it against her that she wasn't more specific (if 'specificity' is what you meant by 'coy')

Particularly in this setup, I don't see this as reflecting on SB's alignment.

With last nights results in mind, is this a possibility now?

It's always been a 'possibility', so your question is trite.

The issue is whether what happened here is sufficient evidence of SB-scum, which I don't think it is.

I would be fine with a spyrex lynch.

Thank you for that contribution. It's nice to know you feel so strongly about a Spyrex lynch and are so interested in helping the town that you would back up your opinion with a logical argument as to why we should lynch spyrex. You are an example to us all.

Okay... but why's he town and what's with his lame claim? I believe that he did take an action on SB, because he has that weird death thing going for him.

Can you step me through this? Why is spyrex scum?

I think the real question should be: What about a miller would cause something like that to backfire?

Nothing.

However, we don't know what the black potion itself was (in this setup, a potion which caused spyrex to become some sort of ghost stump thing would not be surprising) and/or what other action/s were involved.

[vollkan]

Is there some posting restriction that says if I question a player who has a weird mechanic and an odd claim that other players have to respond like I've suggested a night of fun and frivolity with their saintly mothers? Stop getting your knickers in a twist and play nice.

You're suggesting I shouldn't pipe up when a player says something I think to be bullshit?

Care to explain that, Ben.

Hes always scum.

I've been in at least one other game where Spyrex was town that I can remember, so this isn't even empirically accurate.

Vote: Benmage

. Until you give me a proper reason for your vote, I'm going to assume I don't need one for mine, and I encourage others to join in.

Can someone else take over the duties of bringing sense into the game? The vast expanses of idiocy that stretch before me are just too much for the human soul to bear.

I don't agree with you on SB...but I feel your pain.

SB confirmed something odd happened to her last night. Unless anyone else wants to put their hand up, I'm assuming that was Spyrex.

Which makes Spy scum how?

I am. Until I see this theory disproven (and my role follows this pattern as well) then I'm going to assume it's true.

Well, I agree it's likely that many or most roles follow the -er rule (that's why I proposed it in the first place). So far, all town roles have been -er roles. (The Giver, The Hugger, The Sculptor, The Rodent Tamer vs. The Rats, The Scribe, and (alledgedly) The Alchemist). But it doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would necessarily be true 100% of the time.

Why not? Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is usually the best. So far that seems to be the rule.

I'm not liking Spyrex's actions as of late. First, attacking me based on a roughly assumption that his potion was poison, and second that claim. just don't buy it. And the name, well, it doesn't fit either.

Vote: Spyrex

This is just sad more than anything else.

Time to school you: Occam's Razor does not say the simplest explanation is best. It says, as a heuristic maxim, that the explanation which invokes the least number of entities (unknowns, assumptions, etc.) is to be preferred.

In no fashion whatsoever does that justify the absolute crap-logic which you just employed. We have seen a number of town roles which do end in "-er" (for the record, my own role does end in -er). But that isn't statistically significant at all, and it's an extremely dopey assumption to make.

Also, the evidence we've received thus far is consistent with the town roles being the names of professions. Sculptor, I note, ends in -or. To the best of my knowledge, there is no -er or -or suffix for anything which is close in meaning to alchemist. So, given that Spyrex's claimed role certainly sounds plausible in this setup, I'm not going to hold the name against him.

Well, the effect gave me a new ability. Enough said.

Do you think it is strange that scum would have a power that confers a new positive ability?

Withholding a piece of the puzzle is anti-town.

QFT... well, unless that piece is "I'm a doc now."

At best, this would be a one-shot doctor ability. There is no point in withholding that. It's not like the scum is going to try to kill you over a one-night doc ability, when you're a miller. That's assuming that SB is town, an ever-dimming possibility.

QFT

I am the Toucher. I 'touch' 1 player at night.

I just want to note in passing that I read these two sentences plus your username and nearly choked on my coffee in laughter.

I am the Toucher. I 'touch' 1 player at night. If they have an active ability, I am informed at daybreak what ability I've absorbed and the next night I get to either a) use that ability or b) touch another player.

I touched Spyrex and was informed I didn't receive an ability.

As I said, it's not alignment information and it's not 100% foolproof but it's definitely enough to make me suspicious of Spyrex, particularly when his current posts are nothing to write home about.

I agree third party seems likely.

I have reason to believe this is not painting a complete picture. I can say this without revealing any substantial info about my role, so I will. I received the following information in response to a question I asked:

For the purposes of game mechanics, there is a distinction between 'physical' abilities and 'active' abilities. It isn't directly stated, and I can't explain this in detail due to it being role-relevant, but I am of the opinion based on what I have received that a 'physical' can still be an ability that one actively gets to make a choice on; I admit I'm not 100% sure on that. And I am going to send in a request to CKD for clarification after I finish writing this post.

The fact that clergy used the word 'active' specifically leads me to conclude that the distinction is very likely relevant in this context.

And, no, those terms weren't elaborated further for me. However, given that Spyrex's power is the power to select from x number of potions which, in turn, do 'something' (whether it be the conferral of an ability or, as may have been the case, the turning of spyrex into some sort of zombiestumpghost), it seems to me that Spyrex very likely does not possess an 'active' ability.

[vollkan]

For the purposes of game mechanics, there is a distinction between 'physical' abilities and 'active' abilities. It isn't directly stated, and I can't explain this in detail due to it being role-relevant, but I am of the opinion based on what I have received that a 'physical' can still be an ability that one actively gets to make a choice on; I admit I'm not 100% sure on that. And I am going to send in a request to CKD for clarification after I finish writing this post.

The fact that clergy used the word 'active' specifically leads me to conclude that the distinction is very likely relevant in this context.

And, no, those terms weren't elaborated further for me. However, given that Spyrex's power is the power to select from x number of potions which, in turn, do 'something' (whether it be the conferral of an ability or, as may have been the case, the turning of spyrex into some sort of zombiestumpghost), it seems to me that Spyrex very likely does not possess an 'active' ability.

Come on, you can at least pretend to read my posts.

What you guessed is correct and fits exactly with my point, I just have proof of it is all.

I more or less did a few posts later

No, you didn't.

Let me quote each post by you regarding Spyrex since then:

I am The Alchemist. I make potions

but don't know what I make

but yet people still want them. There's a war on but I don't care - I have a new set of potions and want to find out what they do.

You dont know what they do....

I am The Alchemist. I make potions but don't know what I make but yet people still want them. There's a war on but I don't care -

I have a new set of potions and want to find out what they do.

But you have a new set and want to find out what they do....

Odddd

This is just stupid flavour tunneling.

...

Mine does not have that line specifically. However, it does reference the word Special.

Wow, vote him already.

This makes no sense. The word Special or something like it would make sense; we don't know what the full set of ability categories are.

IF I had a bullet it would be going in SB or Ben at the moment.

Telling your partners what todo tonight?

Generic smear post.

-----------
So yeah, great explanation.

What about ending in "-xr"

What you are doing here is akin to acting under confirmation bias. Nothing in the names evidences Spyrex being scum, and yet you are latching onto any difference between Spyrex's name and the

four

town names we have seen so far in order to justify your ridiculous attack on him.

As I already said, for all the silly pedantic spelling "-xr" stuff you can pull out, what we see at the moment is that the town names are names of roles that people can perform. Some of those end in -er, or -or, but, absent some truly compelling evidence, it would be plainly idiotic to run on the assumption that town roles HAVE to end in -xr.

(seriously, can this please be the last pile of total craplogic I have to deal with?)

[quote="Ben"
...also try saying all the town revealed names out loud...theres something to note. [/quote]

Gasp! All the town names so far have odd numbers of syllables whereas "The Al-chem-ist" has an even number. Spyrex is soooo scum!

I'm suggesting maybe a sarcastic and snide little comment is less useful than just a reasonable question about it.

I don't believe it is less useful, but I know for a fact it's a hell of a lot more fun.

Havign said that, I agree abotu my role name and was thinking about making a comment about paedophilia to breadcrumb but decided against it due to good taste

Pfft...you're a paedophile priest. "Good taste" is pretty much irrelevant.

[vollkan]

If you followed the resulting conversation, the fact that Spyrex claims to not have a 'type' line in his role PM is suspicious.

A thought just clicked in my head after I pushed submit, and it is important on this point.

Again, I'm going to have to be vague, but the categories of ability I referred to ("active" and "physical") do apply to scum. In which case, one would expect scum to also have the line in their pm.

Spyrex, can you confirm whether or not you have a field in your PM for "Power type", like the example PM below?

Name: The Mod
Power Type: Active, Passive, Special, or...???
Alignment: With the Council, With the Converters, or….????
Flavor: Blah blah blah, I’m a dirty tramp
Power: Kick Ass
Win Condition: “You win when all who oppose The Council are eliminated.”, “You win when there is no way for the followers of the Council can win.”, or….???

[vollkan]

...

Mine does not have that line specifically. However, it does reference the word Special.

Yes, I wasn't clear what that meant

[vollkan]

CKD answered me.

There are 'physical' abilities, which concern material things (example provided was a weapon).
There are 'active' actions, which relate to powers.
And (which is different to the first bit of info I received, but then again the first info wasn't provided as an exclusive list) there is also an 'other' category for different abilities.

Following that, Spyrex's power strikes me as either falling into either 'physical' or 'other'. In which case, what kiddy fiddler says makes sense.

[vollkan]

Uh-oh, I think Vollkan is lying now...

Name: The Mod
Power Type: Active, Passive, Special, or...???
Alignment: With the Council, With the Converters, or….????
Flavor: Blah blah blah, I’m a dirty tramp
Power: Kick Ass
Win Condition: “You win when all who oppose The Council are eliminated.”, “You win when there is no way for the followers of the Council can win.”, or….???

There are 'physical' abilities, which concern material things (example provided was a weapon).
There are 'active' actions, which relate to powers.
And (which is different to the first bit of info I received, but then again the first info wasn't provided as an exclusive list) there is also an 'other' category for different abilities.

He's telling you stuff that he wouldn't tell us? There is both "special" and "other?"

I don't usually believe that scum make obvious mistakes. But this...?

Three points in reply:

1. What you quoted that the mod provided on page 1 was a sample role PM. That's inherently different from what I am talking about which relates to the nature of abilities.

2. As for why I would be receiving this information, as I already said, I asked a question and this is related to my role.

3. If you don't believe me, simply ask the mod what the difference is between a 'physical' and an 'active' ability.

[vollkan]

This is just stupid flavour tunneling.

I disagree...sorry if you dislike my reasoning.

No. You don't get to "disagree". Either you justify what you said or you admit my superiority.

The post I was referring to was, for the benefit of everyone else:

I am The Alchemist. I make potions

but don't know what I make

but yet people still want them. There's a war on but I don't care - I have a new set of potions and want to find out what they do.

You dont know what they do....

I am The Alchemist. I make potions but don't know what I make but yet people still want them. There's a war on but I don't care -

I have a new set of potions and want to find out what they do.

But you have a new set and want to find out what they do....

Odddd

d" thing makes absolutely no sense. Spyrex's flavour claim there was pretty clear: he makes potions, he has some new ones, he doesn't know what they do, and wants to test them out.

As I said, you are just latching onto anything in his posts that can possibly ground or, more accurately here, give the illusion of grounding, some basis for suspicion.

Don't again tell me you "disagree". Explain why this is "Odddd" and, more to the point, why it is at all relevant for Spyrex's alignment.

If you can't do that, then admit your point was BS from the outset.

Oh, I didnt know I was even attacking him. I was just not believing what he said and voting him...but I guess that is ridiculous.

^ Ben admits confirmation bias in his attacks

I like how there are other votes on him equally as bad as me by your standards and yet you tunnel me....very interesting.

Whose vote/s are you talking about?

And, also, this is a classic example of deflection rather than defense.

-------------------
Also, my role PM does not mention The Giver.


-----------------------

So she does fit into the "-xr" theory and has giver info.

OH WOW! And it also fits with my syllable theory!

(seriously, I've already shown why the "-xr theory" is a load of BS. Stop pushing it)

[vollkan]

Reposting without quotefail

This is just stupid flavour tunneling.

I disagree...sorry if you dislike my reasoning.

No. You don't get to "disagree". Either you justify what you said or you admit my superiority.

The post I was referring to was, for the benefit of everyone else:

I am The Alchemist. I make potions

but don't know what I make

but yet people still want them. There's a war on but I don't care - I have a new set of potions and want to find out what they do.

You dont know what they do....

I am The Alchemist. I make potions but don't know what I make but yet people still want them. There's a war on but I don't care -

I have a new set of potions and want to find out what they do.

But you have a new set and want to find out what they do....

Odddd

This thing makes absolutely no sense. Spyrex's flavour claim there was pretty clear: he makes potions, he has some new ones, he doesn't know what they do, and wants to test them out.

As I said, you are just latching onto anything in his posts that can possibly ground or, more accurately here, give the illusion of grounding, some basis for suspicion.

Don't again tell me you "disagree". Explain why this is "Odddd" and, more to the point, why it is at all relevant for Spyrex's alignment.

If you can't do that, then admit your point was BS from the outset.

Oh, I didnt know I was even attacking him. I was just not believing what he said and voting him...but I guess that is ridiculous.

^ Ben admits confirmation bias in his attacks

I like how there are other votes on him equally as bad as me by your standards and yet you tunnel me....very interesting.

Whose vote/s are you talking about?

And, also, this is a classic example of deflection rather than defense.

-------------------
Also, my role PM does not mention The Giver.


-----------------------

So she does fit into the "-xr" theory and has giver info.

OH WOW! And it also fits with my syllable theory!

(seriously, I've already shown why the "-xr theory" is a load of BS. Stop pushing it)

[vollkan]

Oh meant votes in general, like Kscopes...not simply votes on Spy

Sure, I haven't commented on everything, including kscope's vote. That doesn't mean I am 'tunneling' you.

(seriously, I've already shown why the "-xr theory" is a load of BS. Stop pushing it)

No you havent, and others think it viable as well...But i mean keep tunneling me its doing wonders.(deflect )

Yes, I did. Right here (in a part of my post that you ignored):

As I already said, for all the silly pedantic spelling "-xr" stuff you can pull out, what we see at the moment is that the town names are names of roles that people can perform. Some of those end in -er, or -or, but, absent some truly compelling evidence, it would be plainly idiotic to run on the assumption that town roles HAVE to end in -xr.

(seriously, can this please be the last pile of total craplogic I have to deal with?)

Basically, you are simply taking a trend which we have nothing to suggest is anything more than a coincidence, and are using it to justify an attack.

As I've been showing, your logic is equally consistent with it simply being a requirement that the roles be roles people can perform (at the risk of sounding tautological), and with my "syllable theory".

I can't prove your theory

wrong

, but I don't have to. It's encumbent on you to justify your faith in it.

Fail. He's obviously giving us a serious Rolename and I don't see why "I am an Alchemist" is bad. What, are you expecting "I am The Alchemist" or something? I do not like this overmuch.

Sanity, at last

I'm not the hugest fan of flavor arguments, but I can't ignore them when they appear...

Liar liar pants on fire.

What do you mean by this?

[vollkan]

Reposting without quotefail

This is just stupid flavour tunneling.

I disagree...sorry if you dislike my reasoning.

No. You don't get to "disagree". Either you justify what you said or you admit my superiority.

The post I was referring to was, for the benefit of everyone else:

I am The Alchemist. I make potions

but don't know what I make

but yet people still want them. There's a war on but I don't care - I have a new set of potions and want to find out what they do.

You dont know what they do....

I am The Alchemist. I make potions but don't know what I make but yet people still want them. There's a war on but I don't care -

I have a new set of potions and want to find out what they do.

But you have a new set and want to find out what they do....

Odddd

This thing makes absolutely no sense. Spyrex's flavour claim there was pretty clear: he makes potions, he has some new ones, he doesn't know what they do, and wants to test them out.

As I said, you are just latching onto anything in his posts that can possibly ground or, more accurately here, give the illusion of grounding, some basis for suspicion.

Don't again tell me you "disagree". Explain why this is "Odddd" and, more to the point, why it is at all relevant for Spyrex's alignment.

If you can't do that, then admit your point was BS from the outset.

Theoretically he had a bunch of potions. Their colored, not labeled or whatever. But he doesnt know what the do. (Odd1)

Odd because.....?

He now has a new bunch of potions and wants to find out what they do.(What makes him more likely to know what this batch of potions do...he didnt seem to know what occurred at the onstart of today (Oddd2))

Omigosh! The flavour of a mafia game doesn't directly match exactly what happens in the game itself! Spyrex must be scum!

Just sounds weird to me.

Translated:

Shit. I have no objective explanation so I am going to fall back on a subjective feeling of weirdness that nobody can possibly argue against. That'll teach em.

If you dont like my PoV. I dont care.

Again, subjectivising. I don't "like" or "dislike" your "point of view". I

disagree

with your

reasoning

and have

justified

my disagreement.

Stop immunising yourself against attack.

You can shove ur superior shit up ur ass

Perhaps your biology works differently, but most humans already have their shit up their ass.

Though, I must thank you for acknowledging my superiority. Now just admit your arguments are crap, and you'll be well on the road to recovery.

the next question you ask me is gonna be fun to answer.

Given your current trajectory, I imagine it will be along the lines of "Nya nya nya nya, I'm not listening"

[vollkan]

Don't again tell me you "disagree". Explain why this is "Odddd" and, more to the point, why it is at all relevant for Spyrex's alignment.

If you can't do that, then admit your point was BS from the outset.

It wasnt and end all amazing point, no need to look further string him up now. I simply called his flavor odd. Its my opinion.

Of course it's your opinion, you're the one who said it.

I wanted you to justify your opinion. As in, what objective reasons are there are to why your opinion is valid?

You call the "xr" theory a dumb theory. Thats it. You havent proven it wrong, it hasnt been shown to be false. DOnt give me this mumbo shit on I need to prove its solid. Gravity is a fucking theory, go jump off a building and tell me how it goes for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

I have a theory: Benmage is scum.

He can't disprove it.

Therefore, he is scum.

I think SpryeX is a good lynch because of his back and fourth (IMO) on his power type.

Don't use "IMO" to subjectivise. Where has he flip-flopped?

The "xr"/giver theory involved with him will just be a little icing on the cake....that can easily be resolved and put to rest (if hes telling the turh) with his lynch.

This is another classic evasion technique.

Ben pushed his "-xr" theory again Spy. I showed it was unjustified. Ben can't defend it, so now he is trying to downplay its significance as a point.

[vollkan]

Odd because.....?

odd because an alchemist doesnt know what his own potions do. fuckina

This is what I mean by flavour tunneling. This is a game. A role which makes potions but doesn't know what they do makes perfect sense from a game perspective. You are just picking his flavour to death in order to find something to rest on. Please die.

He now has a new bunch of potions and wants to find out what they do.(What makes him more likely to know what this batch of potions do...he didnt seem to know what occurred at the onstart of today (Oddd2))

Omigosh! The flavour of a mafia game doesn't directly match exactly what happens in the game itself! Spyrex must be scum!

Or just a odd, but run with your theory I think he could be scum too.

If "odd" means nothing more than "you find it interesting", why the hell bring it up in the first place?

Just sounds weird to me.

Translated:

Shit. I have no objective explanation so I am going to fall back on a subjective feeling of weirdness that nobody can possibly argue against. That'll teach em.

Oooo Ooo myturn.

I'm going to argue an opinion, and whats going on in Benmages mind because i'm superior.... after all.... If you say something often enough and long enough, it then becomes believable, and finally becomes fact.

I love that when I make a post translating Ben for the purpose of showing he is subjectivising, he then tries the same technique, but accuses me of simply arguing an "opinion" (ie. he is trying to subjectivise and relativise our disagreement)

If you dont like my PoV. I dont care.

Again, subjectivising. I don't "like" or "dislike" your "point of view". I

disagree

with your

reasoning

and have

justified

my disagreement.

Stop immunising yourself against attack.

Its an opinion. You cant argue this. lol...

An opinion is only valid if it is reached on the basis of sound reasoning. I have supplied said reasoning for my opinions; you have not (or, when you have attempted to do so (ie. "you can't disprove what I said") I have shown why your reasoning is invalid)

If it looks like shit, smells like shit, (you taste it and confirm it) tastes like shit...feel free to call it filet mignon and have others join in in eating it.

Yes. In that case, you have evidence that it is shit. Whereas, here we have no evidence Spyrex is scum. We simply have your dumbass assertions and the "You can't prove I'm wrong" defence

[vollkan]

[quote="Benmage"]
This is null. I think I gave you reasoning. The "interesting" aspects of his flavor claim...That yess isn't the best thing for mafia games. But my opinion on it can still be valid. The reasoning of it still sound. Both my opinion on it being sound and your opinion of it being unsound unto themselves (as in each opinion standing alone...can both be sound.) [/quote]

No.

Your reasoning for Spyrex being scum is not valid and I have shown why. This isn't a 'difference of opinion' unless you are able to truly show that my arguments don't invalidate what you said.

And, also, by 'invalidate' I don't mean "prove wrong". What I have shown is that your position is essentially based on a lack of evidence. That's enough for me to rebut you.

[quote="Spy"]
Benmage aside, general thoughts? I want a more wide arch from you instead of the fight. [/quote]


[quote="Spyrex"]
I think my posts have been pretty clear on my general thoughts (at the very least, as much as anybody else's). The fact I had an arc focussing on Benmage doesn't detract from that

Its really simple and I'm honestly a little angry at myself (and thus you ALL) for not following it through. -er is NOT a function of alignment. It is a function of ability type.

-er, being added to verbs as we've seen denotes active abilities. Thus, players with -er endings will have active abilities and those without (such as myself) do not.
[/quote]

Wrong.

I do not have an active ability and my role ends in -er.

[quote="Snow"] Vollkan and chamber are others that has claimed that, iirc. [/quote]

"that" being that my role name does not end in -xr. Which is false. I claimed my -er ending a few posts back:
[quote="vollkan"] In no fashion whatsoever does that justify the absolute crap-logic which you just employed. We have seen a number of town roles which do end in "-er"

(for the record, my own role does end in -er).

But that isn't statistically significant at all, and it's an extremely dopey assumption to make. [/quote]

[quote="DGB"]
VP Baltar, trying to discuss with benmage is like trying to discuss with scum. Too much logic loses them the game, so they don't want to hear it. [/quote]

DGB, you don't think Benmage is scum?

[quote="chamber"][quote="VP Baltar"]Chamber, what are your thoughts ona benmage lynch? (God, I hate when people make me campaign this hard to lynch scum)[/quote]

[quote="chamber"]
My reads from scummiest to townest:

dramonic
Papa Zito
milkshake
Sajin
SerialClergyman
Plum
stark
KaleiÐoscøpe
Kise
SocioPath
tubby216
Rosso Carne
LlamaFluff
VP Baltar
Battle Mage
Vaya

Benmage

vollkan
SpyreX
DrippingGoofball
Snow_Bunny
[/quote][/quote]

This is why I hate lists.

He asked for your opinion, not a relative ranking.

[vollkan]

Wow that's a terribad post.

Both 1) and 2) are absolutely not true, and 2) especially is LESS LIKELY to be true as soon as you've said it.

We have not spent a ridiculous amount of time on SB? We're not going to conclude anything new.

Tubby is the best lynch today.

Could you or someone else summarise the gist of the Tubby case for me. I'm not seeing it (by that, I mean that I just haven't picked up the arguments, not that I have an opinion either way)

...
spoke too soon:

When bunny claimed miller, Tubby immediately called for her lynch, saying that all claimed millers must die. But Llama found another game he was in where someone claimed miller and he didn't react at all like this there. And when asked here why his opinion on millers seemed to suddenly change or what caused it to change, he brushes off the point and refuses to answer.

Vote: tubby

This case makes sense. I won't join yet just because I don't know the VC.

if you call that game being over a year old sudden then sure, and why does my opinion change make me scummy,

The question is (fairly simply):

What made you change your mind?

A change of opinion in this particular game without some reason for it is scummy. The fact that the other game is a year old is relevant, but 'd still like you to answer the above.

No. You don't get to "disagree". Either you justify what you said or you admit my superiority.

YOU BEEN VOLLKAN'D!

I've become a verb. My life is complete.

I am The Happy Hoppy Fuzzy Bunny
essentially i have the power to entertian children they flock to me in droves, and while they do that it gives me an opurntunity to hide,
I work for thw council in their day care facility

So basically i am a hider i hide at nite last nite i hid behind milkshake who if milkshake were a converter i'd be killed

are we all satisfied now??

With the breadcrumb, I am inclined to accept this. Still answer my question.

[vollkan]

The question is (fairly simply):
What made you change your mind?

A change of opinion in this particular game without some reason for it is scummy. The fact that the other game is a year old is relevant, but 'd still like you to answer the above.

ok agian reason for changing stance on millers,

I did not like how that game turned out with the miller claim, I also ran across millers in games offsite, i discuss the miller question at length with ofther mafia players and i feel currently we should lynch all millers.

Long-winded but ultimately dodged my question*

In that game you thought lynching millers was bad. Here you think it is good. I want to know what theory reason changed your mind.

(*Also, because there is such a difference opinion on this issue, I am concerned that you are simply trying to, in effect, hide in the controversy)

[vollkan]

Long-winded but ultimately dodged my question*

Ahah i love how ones answers are never satisfactory for vollkan.

No. I've been satisfied by many answers in my time on site. I just don't accept subjective or evasive answers.

I think he wants to recall whatever discussion you had revolving the issue. mind boggling.

A year ago he opposed lynching.
Now he supports it.

If he is town, he must have some reason for supporting lynching.

Ergo, him telling us his reasoning for supporting lynching will explain his change of mind.

[vollkan]

volkan,

you asked me why i changed my mind i answered that.

now if you want to know why i think lynching millers is a good idea thats a different question

Fine. Then why do you now think lynching millers is a good idea?

[vollkan]

I just realized something.

Kscope, who clearly isn't paying attention to anything at all and is therefore scum, voted for tubby, when Benmage was one vote behind tubby. Therefore, Kscope isn't scum with tubby, he's scum with Benmage whose keister he just tried to save.

vote: Benmage

I didn't notice that (the tubby vote). Yet another reason why Benmage should die

1.) tubby216: I'm willing to believe the hider claim. Even with the safeclaim could've been an easy thing to do for a future safeclaim. I'm curious why he hid behind milk? Because he was very obvious town? Just stay on top of his night actions in the future.

And the miller change?

2.) Vaya: I think Vaya is scum. Shes been off the radar and her play is worse than what i've seen it.

Define "worse".

How is tubby-town fairly plausible???????

because

A) i claimed truthfully
B) scum aligned hider is weak and makes no sense when everyone has a role of some sort
C) you suck at pushing wagons
D) and most important I AM TOWN


you have played this game before right stark?

A) Only you (or your possible scumbuddies) could be sure of this
B) This makes you town how?
C) Completely irrelvant
D) Begging the question

Benmage's hinting that he may be nightkilled instead is part of that pathos.

How does that work?