/in-vitational 2 - Chosen, Karaoke - Game over! before 830

[Zorblag]

It no be for Papa Zito in particular, Troll mostly just feels frustration that the majority of players on site often seem set in their ways and no be willing to exploit slightly different game mechanics when them be about. Troll knows that the reluctance to do so no means that them be trying to hurt town and Troll has probably been a bit lucky with how Troll has tried to go about using the chosen mechanic (and others) but Troll at least got lucky and no will pass on this chance to emphasize a point. Troll be a math teacher after all. When Troll can demonstrate that something works and try to get others to use that model Troll will do so.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Sajin]

Is that addressed to me, troll?

Odds said it was better to try and lynch scum from day 1. I am not opposed to using the mechanics in the game to create advantage. But in this one I thought it was better to ignore it unless we got close to a endgame with chosen still alive.


I am still really confused why I was killed. I though mitey and myself were chosen and I thought scien was scum before I died. Unless zito convinced me off of it, I was going after scien as scum for endgame.


I do find it hilarious that the day 1 wagons were scum and scum. Heh.

[Papa Zito]

You were obvtown, Sajin. You had to die.

[Sajin]

While I did try to look very very town, I would of been voting in a way that helped scum. Meh.

[Zorblag]

Well, Troll no had Sajin in mind when Troll made the statement, but yes, Sajin be doing what Troll be complaining about there. Troll really no be addressing Troll's rant here to anyone in particular, more to everyone who be reading the thread at this point that might listen.

Troll does hope that Sajin realizes that his stance on day one (either hohum or Sajin should be lynched despite the fact that Sajin knew Sajin was town and was neutral or something like it towards hohum) will usually be something other than the best position to take.

As Troll said earlier, Troll was also really confused by Sajin's kill. Troll has posited some reasons for it but it will be up to MiteyMouse to clear that up.

MiteyMouse cross-bussing day one was a great move on her part as that was one of the reasons that Troll suspected her as little as Troll did. Troll no knows who's plan it was for Cojin to bus MiteyMouse in the first place but it really did make her look like Scum in Troll's opinion. Especially when it came so soon after the other chosen game where Nuwen/Raivann did try to lynch Archon/Herodotus right from the start.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Also, one of Troll's favorite things about this game was the three post "random voting stage". We blew past that waste of time like it was no ones business. Troll was most pleased to see that.

Troll has Sajin to thank for that.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Sajin]

No, it was the best position for this type of game. I would never have voted for myself and I was stressing how strong my hohum vote was.

By the same argument, the kill on me made zero sense.

And Troll how does your followup post support your original rant? I see these things as 2 different issues.

[Zorblag]

Troll's follow up post no was meant to support Troll's original rant. Troll answered a question and then said some other things.

It no was at all clear to Troll that Sajin no would self vote on day one from what him had said. And Troll will claim that as town who no particularly thinks that someone pushing for your lynch be scum it always be better to try to find some third party lynch than to demand one of the two of you be lynched. If the one pushing for you to be lynched be town then them have every reason to come to their senses as time goes on and stop pushing for you.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Sajin]

I hate the RVS. Glad I could help.

Could of....but would of? From my experiences I highly doubted it. In my point of view it was best to lynch him because he was either scum or we a town giving his vote to scum for later. It made the most sense from my perspective to lynch him.

If I thought he would of, then I would not of taken that stance troll.

[Zorblag]

Well, in the end your games be your games to play but Troll will strongly recommend against trying to convince the town to vote for someone you think be as likely to be town as scum or yourself on day one no matter what else be going on. It should almost always be better to try to figure out who you actually think the scum be and make cases against them.

Of course, this game demonstrates how poor Troll be at determining who scum actually be so Troll supposes you should apply a generous number of grains of salt when listening to Troll.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Scien]

Meh... I've been playing weak games recently...

In this game as well as a recent one, I lost touch with the game in parts, and had issues that you guys immediately caught.

I guess at least I didn't cause too much problems with my play.

I enjoyed playing with you all, and hope to see you around.

I am looking forward to Mitey's thoughts. She fooled me pretty good heh.

Whats the phrase, "Maybe I should start being afraid of you." Or something like that

[Sajin]

Hohum was more likely scum in my eyes then town. I was trying to convince everyone else of that. Since I figured his vote was going to be with the scum regardless of what anyone said to him, I would be taking out one less vote of scums either way. Does that make sense?

I would not of done that had I though hohum was more likely town.

[Zorblag]

Up until around Post 444 you were doing fine holding the line that you be talking about now. It was right around there that you stopped saying that you thought that hohum was scum and that you instead had a neutral read on him but that you still thought either hohum or yourself should be the lynch for the day.

That spot and on be what Troll be concerned about in terms of future play.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Sajin]

No it was about there that I doubted my certainty he was scum. I considered he could of been town.

I knew he was tunneling on town. My logic was that either way I was getting rid of a vote that scum has. I think you are still missunderstanding my fundamental argument. You still are no addressing that part:

If someone is tunneling town and looks like they will never be convinced otherwise, and we have a ML, is it not worth lynching them?


I would of happily been the lynch if everyone else was convinced hohum was town. Either way it would of shifted the vote on a townie every day.

You are speaking as if everyone has as malleable a view point as you do. That is clearly not the case.

[Zorblag]

If you don't think someone is scum but they are tunneling on you in general Troll thinks that it be better to look elsewhere rather than trying to get them lynched. Trying to make the town choose between two lynches you think have good chances of being town be bad because even if they were to lynch you and free up hohum in that situation, given that you know him can tunnel on town you have no reason to think that him no would do the same again. It be better not to waste mislynches if there be a fair chance to hit scum instead which be what we ended up doing. It never be good to assume that a position from someone else will never change. hohum himself, despite your read on him, seemed to be leaning towards Troll as scum rather than yourself when we lynched him.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Sajin]

I

Thought

He

Was

Scum


What part of that is hard to understand?

[Nikanor]

Hooray, we win!
I'm sorry that I kinda fell apart right before my lynch, but I'm glad I was vanilla town! I think we would have lost if I had flipped chosen.
Great playing with you all, and thanks Incognito for the great flavour! Although, I do believe my death was a bit lacking in its originality.

[Sajin]

And I would like your response to my arguments working under the fact that I thought he was scum, and myself chosen. And when you say I thought he was town, I was just considering that he was town somewhat possible but not probable. Thanks.

And Mitey, I likes the cross bus, you had me fooled. We had the chosen the save us. We all had the wrong reads.

[Zorblag]

If you thought him was scum then your attack from yourself on him was fine. Again, it be when you said you had a neutral read on him that Troll started to take serious issue. If you no were questioning your previous read then you did a fine job of fooling Troll about what your current read was, good work. Troll can only go with what you say you believe when assessing your beliefs.

When you called for everyone else to agree with you or be scum you almost certainly went into the realm of unreasonable. Assuming that everyone else must have seen hohum as scum was pretty clearly a poor stance as people will form their own opinions. Your insistence that Troll must be holding back on Troll's vote for the one Troll thought was scum be an example of this. Troll never said that hohum was Troll's first choice for scum and Troll no thinks that Troll ever implied that Troll thought hohum was more likely scum than town during day one. Sajin seemed to take what Troll had said as evidence that Troll felt otherwise.

Don't get Troll wrong, hohum's stance no was a stellar example of good town play either but that no means that you should take up a similar counter stance or that you should assume that others share your views.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[MiteyMouse]

Great work with playing the dynamic there guys! I was actually getting close to dropping the hammer and had I been Town, I would have...hehehe!

I don't have much time to comment right now but, be careful with who you don't thik is Scum and the reasons why. Cojin's "mistake" and the cross bussing helped me coast (and coast I did) until endgame and probably could have got me the win if it hadn't been for Zorblag and gaming the dynamic.

I do have to appologize to Cojin though. It could have just as easily gone the other way my friend but, I am sorry that you were killed so early and that I was on your wagon.

I have quite a bit more to share but, have to get ready for work...look forward to a gigantic post from me tonight.

[Papa Zito]

And I would like your response to my arguments working under the fact that I thought he was scum, and myself chosen.

This is what I was operating under, for what it's worth. After day 1 when hohum more-or-less refused to participate I figured it was because his opening gambit (brute force a Chosen lynch) had failed.

[Incognito]

I think I like the Chosen set-up as it is now. The issue with having only one Chosen was that if the single Chosen ended up looking particularly town-ish for one reason or another, the scum were basically fried and likely wouldn't have any chance at winning the game. The issue with having multiple veto votes was that it made it easy for towns to just lynch the people who were most likely vetoed, which would likely be damaging for scum as well. Basically, the game was very strongly town-favored all around in the old set-up. This is something that Zorblag exploited fairly well in hohum's game, and I think Albert B. Rampage tried to exploit this a bit in my first Chosen game also.

I think hohum mentioned something about adding another goon and keeping it at one Chosen -- I'm really not too crazy about that since you'd probably also need to add extra townies anyway for two reasons:

1)

to make the game more balanced by normal Mafia standards and

2)

to still give the scum a shot at winning due to the mechanic itself (needing to lynch a Chosen while Vanillas are still alive). 5 townies, 1 Chosen, and 3 scum would... just not work. So yeah, if anyone runs a Chosen again, I'd definitely recommend that he or she uses the layout that we had here (and yes, this includes giving the scum the single veto vote still).

---

I was initially a bit worried that the game would be a cakewalk for Town when Cojin was lynched Day 1 because it seemed like MiteyMouse was going to be next in line; the cross-bussing thing actually worked really nicely for the scum though. I think the Town largely ignored MiteyMouse for the remainder of the game under the assumption that she was "just a Chosen", and she did a good job of exploiting that. I wonder what would have happened if the wagon swung towards MiteyMouse instead of Cojin though...

I, too, am looking forward to MiteyMouse's thoughts about the game -- I thought the Sajin-kill was decent because he really was obvtown at that point due to his early game mix-up, but I thought for sure that Zorblag was gonna be her NK choice at some point since he was the veto vote in the first place and because it seemed like a good portion of people thought Sajin was a Chosen One, which might have made lynching a real Chosen One much easier as end-game approached. I was pretty positive that Zorblag would push a him-lynch at end-game since his thoughts seemed to line up for that since Day 1 (I think he might have thought twice about it after Night 1 happened but still).

Although, I do believe my death was a bit lacking in its originality.

Sorry, I get really really lazy with the flavor as the game progresses whenever I mod. I only gave the end-game as much flavor as I did because Zorblag inspired me with a PM for his own song requests.

@Scien:

What made you change your mind about this:

We hit you as vanillia, townie, I think we have our victory in my lynch.

I thought for sure you might have ended up pushing for your own lynch right from the start of Day 4. I think that would have made for an interesting situation haha.

---

Thanks, everyone else, for all of the other comments! I hope you all enjoyed and congrats to the Town for winning!

Oh and for the record, I'm a "strapping 25" going on 26 next month. Is 26 less strapping?

[Scien]

@Scien: What made you change your mind about this [...]

Hmm. Well, I can't claim that me saying that was any kind of manipulation on my part in day 3. I honestly did think that I had a good chance at being vanilla right till PapaZ's mistake and eventual vote cleared the game up.

Part of my early day 4 hesitation was due to me mistakenly thinking that it would only take two votes to lynch. I really didn't want to put myself to L-1 without talking to the town about it. (I was typically pretty uncommited during pretty much all this game for some reason.)

After the initial part of the day, I kind of got into defense mode when that assumption that people thought I made came out. right before this time was the first time I started seriously trying to figure who might have been chosen with a given scum.

I guess I can't claim much besides a lack of being here, a lack of being decisive, and a strong win condition presenting itself before I did anything drastic.

Oh and for the record, I'm a "strapping 25" going on 26 next month. Is 26 less strapping?

Heh, that's old! That's like, over a quarter century man.

(I turn 25 on the 26th. Where the heck did summer go?)

[Ether]

I noticed kind of late that Zito asked me in that other thread if I'd invented Chosen. Yes, with credit to Patrick's Targets game for the inspiration. Plus he came up with the two-chosen variant when the normal format proved so town-sided.

Incognito didn't do too much. He didn't even play in the original Marathon runs. He's just a PR guy.

Also, while he is

currently

old, 26 is a perfectly legitimate age.

[MiteyMouse]

Thoughts from the Scum....

So, I'm looking forward to this game so much. Get my PM and I'm Scum with Cojin! YAY!!! Then it hits me, 4 people have seen me as Scum, 3 of those have been my Scum partners...this is not going to be so easy!

So, I start the PMing process for excluding...Cojin does not respond right away. Now, any of you that have played with or modded me know that I'm a touch high strung during the pre game planning process. I go into a bit of a panic and PM Incog just to see if Cojin has picked up his PM...he has and further panic sets in...then I get my PM returned...crisis adverted...hehehe! Cojin argues to exclude Nik and I argue for Zorblag..we talk back and forth and decide on Zorblag. Find out that Scien and Papa are excluded...Whoo Hoo! This sets my wheels turning.

In thread we lay low. Sinjin makes mistake and Hohum tunnels. I step in to defend with my "mistake"....hehehe! Town buys it except hohum...I get emotional which is not unlike me. Now my ass is on the line though. I make a snap judgement to vote my partner. Now, I know that this is going to buy me cred but, it really stings having to bus so early. For wahtever reason, Cojins mistake is not seen as the others and he starts sinking...this was hard as I wanted so badly to defend him. I come up with a plan that Cojin says he would exclude Papa or Scien, planning to push that they must be his partner...I will do the same with the one he doesn't pick. That way either of us goes down, the other can exploit this and get our Chosen lynched. Hohum hammers before Cojin can answer...grrrr...FAIL!

This was the hardest Night...now, I'm a sad and lonely Scum that is going to take some heat on Day 2. How do I make myself look innocent here. I decide to take Zorblag and Hohum off the table for the kill...for whatever reason, they like me and they know my meta pretty well so, I need them to potentially defend me later in game. Hohum is going to go after Sajin hard so, let's leave Sajin. So...Nik or Qwints? Qwints talks less and seemed to agree with Hohum...let's go for him.

Day 2...Scien and Zorblag go at it and I get excited!! Defend Scien a bit to look Town and giggle with this...

Troll finds MiteyMouse's play to be pretty poor this game but, really, the mistake she made there didn't do anything much to help scum as it would get pointed out right away. Troll views it as mostly neutral with slight scummy connotations. Troll has little trouble believing that MiteyMouse no had read something carefully given what Troll knows of her play.

Basically, as Troll said, the mistake by Cojin at the end almost had to be intentional as him would have known how many names him submitted. Further it was one that Troll thinks was designed to make him look like town who had misread what the scum would get to do. Coming up with that takes a bit of sophistication. Troll no means to insult MiteyMouse or Sajin but them be the ones in the game Troll finds least likely to have come up with the idea and Troll no thinks that Cojin would have on his own.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Hehehe...falling right into my hands here Zorblag!! Now, I did not take offence here but, took action. The boys thought that I was less intelligent or manipulative than some of them so, I go with it...I decide be a bit extra flakey. Now, probably my most evil plan is hatched at this point, I need to get to end game with 2 people that are more intelligent than me but, people that like me. It has to be a combination of Hohum, Papa, Scien and Zorblag...actually Zorblag has to be one of them....this will haunt me later!!!

I think Scien is going to be lynched so, I vote Hohum...then my hands are clean of the lynch of a Chosen. Hohum gets lynched...CRAP...foiled again!

Night 2...if the other person that I think is Town gets offed, I look good. So, Sajin is the Night kill.

Day 3...Scien or Papa need to die today...Nik goes instead...well this is not so bad. Everyone left has played a few games with me and all are thinking that I'm not likely to be Scum....

Night 3...no Night kill can be done or I will automatically lose.

Day 4...Crap on a stick, I should have killed Zorblag earlier!! Go big or go home right? I go hard after Papa...hoping to get Scien on board and perhaps get Zorblag to change his mind last minute...foiled again!!!

Good game everyone! You deserved the win with the way the game was gamed...it was brilliant!