Mini 839 -- Mafia Invasion! (Game Over)

[Cruciare]

I did say that I would be willing to move my vote as necessary, but Pops being so close to lynch (CLOSER THAN TMJ, HINT HINT) makes me not really want to, and I think others may feel the same. If this psychological lockdown persists until deadline, it would be quite bad. I think the only person who's seriously against TMJ is Pops himself, am I wrong? To the rest of you who are voting TMJ becase you are against lynching a possible doctor Day 1, please realise that if he really is the doctor he would most probably die tonight anyway. PLEASE DO NOT WASTE A DAY ON A COMPLETE GAMBLE LYNCH THAT DOESN'T TELL US VERY MUCH (I.E. TMJ).

[Sotty7]

Why not?

Because of the doc claim. Because he would be pinned to it all game and because there has been no counterclaim.

I thought I said as much, but I look back and hadn't spelled it out as such. Just said that I agreed with Porkens who pretty much said what I would have said here.

[jammer]

I did say that I would be willing to move my vote as necessary, but Pops being so close to lynch (CLOSER THAN TMJ, HINT HINT) makes me not really want to, and I think others may feel the same. If this psychological lockdown persists until deadline, it would be quite bad. I think the only person who's seriously against TMJ is Pops himself, am I wrong? To the rest of you who are voting TMJ becase you are against lynching a possible doctor Day 1, please realise that if he really is the doctor he would most probably die tonight anyway. PLEASE DO NOT WASTE A DAY ON A COMPLETE GAMBLE LYNCH THAT DOESN'T TELL US VERY MUCH (I.E. TMJ).

I am fully ready to move my vote on pops to get him lynched. I do prefer the one that is not a claimed doctor.

I am not solely voting TMJ becouse pops is doc. TMJ got scummy behaviour, at worst we lose a unhelpful and unreadable pro-town player with lynching TMJ. Who would always be a ¨What do we do with him?¨ if kept alive. Might be a playing style he looks so scummy, but lynching TMJ will likely continue being a gamble if that is the case.

I´d lynch pops and TMJ both at this instant if I could.

[sigma]

To the rest of you who are voting TMJ becase you are against lynching a possible doctor Day 1, please realise that if he really is the doctor he would most probably die tonight anyway. PLEASE DO NOT WASTE A DAY ON A COMPLETE GAMBLE LYNCH THAT DOESN'T TELL US VERY MUCH (I.E. TMJ).

This post looks scummy to me. The facts are just wrong -- the mafia may want to play WIFOM games by not killing pops if he's the real doctor, as I've said before. Also, lynching PRs is a lot different from seeing them night-killed -- lynching a doctor gives the mafia a free shot at any other power roles or extreme pro-town players.

---

Unofficial vote count is 6 on pops to 5 on TMJ.

afatchic, if he ever shows up, has indicated that he disagrees with a pops lynch, which means we're realistically looking at a TMJ vote from him.

So basically, we're looking at a game of chicken to see which TMJ/pops voter blinks first in the face of a no-lynch. That's not good.

I'll probably get a chance to check the game again before deadline, but I don't want to risk a no-lynch. I feel like this is a random lynch, but random lynch is better than no lynch. If pops' claim is fake, hopefully it'll come back to bite him in the way some of you have suggested.

Vote: TMJ

afatchic, if you ever decide to show up, you should hammer. I'm also going to be inclined to lynch you after lurking so long in the face of deadline.

[sigma]

EBWOP: The 'scummy' post I quoted is Cruciare's.

[RedCoyote]

*Loud spring noise sound effect*
"You're listening to KRAZ 102 FM, the craziest station on the dial! We're so crazy that each hour we play 53 minutes of the best pop music America has to offer; guaranteed! I'm DJ Looney, and caller six, Joe Fishsticks, you are on the air! How crazy are you feeling tonight?"

"How you doin'? Uh, who you callin' crazy, huh? I'm tryin' to order some pasta here and this guy calls me crazy. Hey, tough guy, don't gimme no lip, I will bust that fuc-"

*click*

---

Vote Count 1.7

• Tjoe Min Ja

  (Col.Cathart - popsofctown - Porkens - jammer - Sotty7 - sigma)
  
  
  popsofctown
  (Tjoe Min Ja - Cruciare -

  sigma

  -

  Vi

  - imaginality - Vi - DeathRowKitty)
  
  
  James.Denholm
  (

  jammer

  -

  Porkens

  )
  
  
  jammer
  (afatchic)
  
  
  Vi
  (

  Sotty7

  )
  
  
  Not Voting
  (

  James.Denholm

  -

  DeathRowKitty

  )

With twelve alive, it takes seven to lynch.
The current deadline is September 13th at 3 PM CST (About 6 and a half hours from this post).

[Vi]

If I have to I'll hammer TMJ to prevent a No Lynch, but it's not my preferred choice at all.

[popsofctown]

it should be

[Vi]

At this point I don't think anyone from TMJ's side is going to swap over.
afatchic showing up wouldn't actually prove anything, as it would be a choice between TMJ and No Lynch.
So I may as well kick this sled down the hill.

Unvote: popsofctown
Vote to Hammer: Tjoe Min Ja

[sigma]

It's not my preferred lynch either, vi, but it's the best move at this point.

Just noticed that I didn't unvote. Just to make sure there's no shenanigans:

unvote

Vote: TMJ

Thanks for doing that! I missed it and it could've been a real headache if someone pointed it out after the fact.

[sigma]

One more time, with feeling:

Unvote
Vote: TMJ

[popsofctown]

you mean, one more time, without hanging BB codes?

[sigma]

Yes.

[RedCoyote]

First it was Y.C, then is was Tjoe, then pops, then Tjoe, then pops, and finally Tjoe. He tried to play it silent, not get himself in trouble, but maybe that was what did him in. As the Sun began to set, Cruciare and Vi pushed pops towards the noose, but sigma and Sotty had Tjoe by the throat. "Not me! Please! Anyone but the Doc Pops!" pops would cry, but Tjoe remained ever silent. "Fine", said Vi, "A lynch must come of this... one way or another". With a shove of disgust, Vi pushed pops off the platform. No objections would be heard from Col.Cathart, pops, Porkens, or jammer.

Tjoe remains silent all the while, and the town is only too happy to oblige. Tjoe dangled from the pecan tree, and when his body finally stopped struggling, the Colonel ran up and grabbed his coat. He searched through the pockets with determination: a set of car keys, a cell phone, a travel guide for Lynchem, TX, a business card 'Waste Management, Not Mafia LLC', and an evidence bag? It looked just like the evidence bags used by the Lynchem Police Department, but Tjoe wasn't a police officer. No, this evidence was doctored, only a

Mafia Framer

would have access to this.

"Ok", pops shouted, "now let's draw straws to see who gets my protection".

---

Final Day 1 Vote Count

• Tjoe Min Ja

  (Col.Cathart - popsofctown - Porkens - jammer - Sotty7 - sigma - Vi)
  
  
  popsofctown
  (Tjoe Min Ja - Cruciare - imaginality -

  Vi

  - DeathRowKitty)
  
  
  jammer
  (afatchic)

With twelve alive, it takes seven to lynch

.

With a successful lynch, Night 1 begins and the thread will be locked. Please submit all of your night actions before September 16th at 3:00 PM CST.

[RedCoyote]

Cock-a-doodle-

BAM

!

The Sun rises with trepidation, exposing a gruesome scene for all to witness. Yes, the town was successful in their killing yesterday, but would the vigilant townspeople face repercussions? The Colonel is the first to arrive on the scene, followed by Vi, sigma, imaginality, Cruciare, afatchic, jammer, DeathRowKitty, Porkens...

and Sotty.

No one says a word as they stare at their departed physician. Medically certified, surely he would be sorely missed by the community. popsofctown is searched for any clues as to who may have been the killer. There isn't much in his pockets, in fact, no one seemed to recall pops visiting them tonight. The only thing to be found on pops' person at all is a set of keys with an Oklahoma University keychain. A doctor from OU? That doesn't sound right. It looks as though he lived somewhat outside of Lynchem, in a small cabin near the lake. The only type of person who could make it out there would have to be a

Survivor

. Sure, there's one less Sooner around, but did the town really want him dead? He was never really part of the town, but then again you know he couldn't have been responsible for any murders. The crowd begins to look at each other once again, because it doesn't look like their problems will be going away overnight.

---

Day 2

• Not Voting

  (Everyone)

With ten alive, it takes six to lynch.
The current deadline is set for 9/30/09.

[sigma]

Wow. That makes two surprising flips.

Vote: afatchic

He lurked through day 1, including lurking at deadline when it could have been really detrimental to the town. Basically, he never took a definitive stance on TMJ or pops, and that combined with the general active lurking makes him a great lynch candidate.

Here are his thoughts on TMJ:

TMJ: As i just said, i think he is a newb making a bunch of rookie mistakes, and getting jumped on for it. In my mind they are all Null-tells, and the reason for that is because i remember back in my first newbie game that i acted a lot of the same way (As V.T.). However i realize he has been signed up on the site for quite a while, but I'm not sure exactly how much experience he has. Basically, i am not trying to pull the newb card for him, but thats how i am taking a lot of what he has done, and thus i don't have much of a read on him at the moment. I really don't understand the reasoning behind the votes on him either.

So, he tried to keep us off TMJ at the beginning of the day, but didn't bother defending him when he was close to getting lynched, which looks like scum not wanting to get caught defending their lynched partner.

More on other players later.

[Sotty7]

afatchic is a good place to put a vote right now. He needs to add more to this game that is for sure. However Cruciare said something similar about TMJ here, something I essentially agreed with when I came in. Are we also scummy to you as well? Or is afatchic's lurking on the deadline the added factor in your vote?

Vote: Vi

Although Pops didn't flip doc, the scum killed him

because

he claimed doc. Yesterday Vi encouraged a voter on the claimed doc wagon while keeping her vote off. Also TMJ quickly followed Vi with a vote on Y.C at the start of the game here. TMJ strikes me as the kind of scum that would make that kind of early newb mistake.

Really want to hear from Cruciare and for him to explain why he thought yesterdays TMJ lynch would offer little in the ways of information. I also want his opinion on the two wagons now that TMJ did flip scum.

Also, more from Jammer please.

[Porkens]

How you feeling Cruciare?

Vindicated?
Embarrassed?
Hopeful?

[afatchic]

Wow. That makes two surprising flips.

Vote: afatchic

He lurked through day 1, including lurking at deadline when it could have been really detrimental to the town. Basically, he never took a definitive stance on TMJ or pops, and that combined with the general active lurking makes him a great lynch candidate.

Here are his thoughts on TMJ:

TMJ: As i just said, i think he is a newb making a bunch of rookie mistakes, and getting jumped on for it. In my mind they are all Null-tells, and the reason for that is because i remember back in my first newbie game that i acted a lot of the same way (As V.T.). However i realize he has been signed up on the site for quite a while, but I'm not sure exactly how much experience he has. Basically, i am not trying to pull the newb card for him, but thats how i am taking a lot of what he has done, and thus i don't have much of a read on him at the moment. I really don't understand the reasoning behind the votes on him either.

So, he tried to keep us off TMJ at the beginning of the day, but didn't bother defending him when he was close to getting lynched, which looks like scum not wanting to get caught defending their lynched partner.

More on other players later.

Check my other games... i didn't post in any during that time, so i wasn't intentionally skipping this one.

He never took a definitive stance on TMJ or Pops

Really?!?! I'm pretty sure i was 100% against lynching pops, as i clearly said a couple times in my later posts. And yeah i never took a stance on TMJ because i never had a read on him. the only type of a read on him i had was he is a newb. I couldn't tell if he was newb town or newb scum. Honestly, had i been here i wouldn't have pushed for his lynch, as is seemed to be based off the fact that he was playing newbish, rather than scummy.

I still need to read the last few pages and see how the first day ended, as i still haven't read that. I just took my Chem. Test this morning, so i should have a bit more time to devote to this.

[sigma]

@Sotty:
His stance on TMJ isn't a big factor. Hell, I agreed with afatchic about TMJ, for the most part, that TMJ was null, so you could as easily argue that point against me. The vote comes specifically from his lurking, his deadline-lurking , and him never actually telling us who he would have voted for at deadline.

@afatchic:

You're right -- that's a good point. You were definitely against lynching pops in some of your earlier posts. However, when the discussion was centering on whether TMJ or pops should be lynched at the end of the day, you were silent. Moreover, it's not like you've exactly been giving us a lot of information with your posts in general. If you'd been fairly active earlier in the day, the deadline-lurking might have been excusable.

[Vi]

Wow. That makes two surprising flips.

Agreed.
The good news is that -usually- Survivor is counted as scum, which hopefully says good things about the rest of the game.

I don't have a problem with the afatchic pressure, although I

am

surprised to see him respond to it tbh.

Although Pops didn't flip doc, the scum killed him

because

he claimed doc. Yesterday Vi encouraged a voter on the claimed doc wagon while keeping her vote off.

No contest. I've explained this quite a few times now.

Also TMJ quickly followed Vi with a vote on Y.C at the start of the game here. TMJ strikes me as the kind of scum that would make that kind of early newb mistake.

What kind of early newb mistake? (Specifically, does it have to be one that necessarily includes me as scum?)

How you feeling Cruciare?

Vindicated?
Embarrassed?
Hopeful?

I know my answer.

Vote: imaginality

(L-5)
My suspicions from yesterday, based on matters including but not limited to selective participation, have not changed.

[Vi]

Although Pops didn't flip doc, the scum killed him

because

he claimed doc.

Did they?
But doesn't that seem odd to you?

On a related note,

Although Pops didn't flip doc, the scum killed him

because

he claimed doc. Yesterday Vi encouraged a voter on the claimed doc wagon while keeping her vote off.

This is a

non sequitur

- the first sentence does not lead to the second; it actually weakens it. The second sentence is what you were saying yesterday, without the important part--

Basically, I think you believed the claim

while at the same time encouraged another player to keep their vote on Pops.

I'm sure this would have much more of a punch if my suspicions about the claim were not well-founded (and well-documented in 294).

While I'm here I'll answer two of my own questions (previously asked to Cruciare).

Counterquestion. What would you expect scum to do when confronted with Townpops' claim?
To contrast, what would you expect Town to do when confronted with ?pops' claim?

1) Get the heck off the wagon.
2) Question the claim.

Incidentally.

*Doctor is the #1 fakeclaim for scum and early on I'm tempted to openly recommend Lynch All Claimed Doctors.

This is now a mantra.

[imaginality]

Given how close the vote counts were at the end of day 1, and the fact that the night kill suggests the mafia believed pops' doc claim, I think that the majority of the scum must have been on the pops wagon. Or else they could have swung the lynch away from TMJ. (And to pre-emptively answer any pot-kettle comments: yes, I was also on the pops wagon and I also deserve to be under extra attention today as a result.)

Looking at how the wagon on pops went, I find myself looking in particular at Cruciare, Vi and DeathRowKitty. I can see points against all of them.

More on Vi and DRK later, because for now Cruciare is the one who pings my scumdar the most.

I think it's significant that midway through the day Cruciare tried to steer the lynch choice towards pops vs jammer rather than pops vs TMJ. (DRK is also somewhat guilty of that.) Later on, he softened his stance on pops to being based "more gut than logic" when pops looked likely to be lynched, while keeping his vote on pops. That seems like an attempt to position himself better for when pops flipped town. Also, several times he ducked giving his opinion on something or gave vagueish answers.

Vote: Cruciare

[Cruciare]

Really want to hear from Cruciare and for him to explain why he thought yesterdays TMJ lynch would offer little in the ways of information. I also want his opinion on the two wagons now that TMJ did flip scum.

TMJ was like a near-complete shot in the dark. You're welcome to convince yourself that I'm wrong on this, but that's what I firmly believed D1. Had we lynched Pops, I believed that regardless of whether he came up scum or doctor (I didn't consider third-party to be honest) we would've learnt a lot from it either way. TMJ's lynch would only prove useful if he flipped scum, which fortunately he did. Had TMJ flipped anything other than scum, it would've told us virtually nothing. A TMJ town/third-party flip would also have given the scum a chance to WIFOM with not killing Pops. Like I said, the fact that TMJ actually did flip scum was a lucky shot in the dark in my opinion.

As for the two wagons, if you're talking about the TMJ and Pops wagons yesterday, my opinion now is that there is not likely to be any scum on TMJ's wagon. I'll explain this further on in this post.

How you feeling Cruciare?

Vindicated?
Embarrassed?
Hopeful?

I feel better now that we know Pops isn't pro-town, so a bit vindicated in that regard I guess. I was somewhat embarrassed at failing to seriously consider the possibility that TMJ was actually scum (like I said, I thought it was an almost completely random shot in the dark), and somewhat relieved that we actually did lynch him. Yet I stand by my stance that we were lucky with TMJ, and will glare at anyone who tries to say anything resembling 'I told you so'. My initial scum suspect list has been crossed out and replaced with a completely different one, and I guess knowing that a mafia framer is gone has made me more hopeful of victory, but not by much to be honest. If Pops had flipped scum, I think I would've been able to pin all his other scumbuddies, but that line of thinking goes out the window now. So I guess you could say I'm feeling 'enlightened' or 'rejuvenated'.

I think it's significant that midway through the day Cruciare tried to steer the lynch choice towards pops vs jammer rather than pops vs TMJ.

You misinterpreted me here. My stance D1 was to lynch Pops if possible, lynch Jammer if lynching Pops was not possible, and lynch TMJ if lynching Pops or Jammer was not possible. None of this A vs B thing. Also, it's not like I tried to seriously convince anyone of Jammer's suspiciousness, as I wanted to lynch Pops first before making a case on Jammer.

Later on, he softened his stance on pops to being based "more gut than logic" when pops looked likely to be lynched, while keeping his vote on pops. That seems like an attempt to position himself better for when pops flipped town.

My stance did not soften. My reasons for voting Pops before his claim were the same as my reasons for keeping my vote on him after the claim. The difference is that after his claim, it may be more logical to not lynch a claimed doctor D1 regardless of how suspicious I may be of him, yet my gut was telling me that my suspicions were right and I should follow through with them. Examples of logical reasons for keeping my vote on him would be if another person had counterclaimed doctor, if I myself were a doctor, or if I had some kind of investigation result on him (hypothetically), neither of which was the case. What ever it 'seemed like' to you, it was the truth.

Also, several times he ducked giving his opinion on something or gave vagueish answers.

If you would be so kind as to point out where I have done this, I will be more than glad to correct it.

As I mentioned above, I'm inclined to believe that there are no scum on TMJ's wagon. The reason is that not only did Pops claim doctor, TMJ was actually also scum. First let's consider the reasons scum would have for being off the doctor's wagon: looking innocent, aaand that's it. Makes sense. But now let's consider the reasons scum would have for being on their own scumbuddy's wagon when there is another easily lynchable wagon instead: umm, can anyone think of anything? Sure they would look innocent, but come on, does this really make sense in a game where their objective is to overrun the town? They'd have to be really confident in themselves to pull something like sticking to TMJ's wagon when Pops's one could easily have gone forward instead. And that's pretty unlikely in my opinion. It's like completely throwing away your advantage of being informed at all, like the first option in this thread. For further insight, see what this guy has to say. As such, I will clear all those on TMJ's wagon until anything comes up that suggests otherwise.

Now I want to

Vote: DeathRowKitty

. I know I said yesterday that he was one of the people I was not suspicious of at all (because a lot of his opinions mirrored mine), but with TMJ's scum flip, I now think otherwise. I'll make a better case on this (with all the specifics and all that - there are lots) when I'm less tired, but the general idea is that if you look at his play from the perspective that he is definitely scum, it makes perfect sense. And I mean PERFECT sense. For now, I'll just leave you with the fact that DRK's very first mention of TMJ was at

the bottom of page 6

, a full five days or 86 posts after initial suspicion on TMJ first came to light.

[Col.Cathart]

Now I want to

Vote: DeathRowKitty

. I know I said yesterday that he was one of the people I was not suspicious of at all (because a lot of his opinions mirrored mine), but with TMJ's scum flip, I now think otherwise. I'll make a better case on this (with all the specifics and all that - there are lots) when I'm less tired, but the general idea is that if you

look at his play from the perspective that he is definitely scum, it makes perfect sense. And I mean PERFECT sense.

For now, I'll just leave you with the fact that DRK's very first mention of TMJ was at

the bottom of page 6

, a full five days or 86 posts after initial suspicion on TMJ first came to light.

Exactly. TMJ's flip is just another piece of puzzle in case on DRK. As I said on D1, he was focusing on Y.C and Pops only, while mentioning that 'TMJ is is acting like a newbie = not scum, let's go back to lynching Y.C/Pops'. When Pops claimed doc, he jumped off the wagon, and went in Jammer's direction, as he looked like a fine place for his accusation, since 4 other people already said they are suspicious of him, and he already made a stance on TMJ, so bussing was out of question. Fortunately for us, it didn't happen, and we lynched TMJ. TMJ and Pops flipped, and gave us the glue for the story.

vote: DeathRowKitty