Mini 839 -- Mafia Invasion! (Game Over)

[Porkens]

The fact that you're saying this after all the discussion we've had, and only when pops' lynch looks fairly likely, makes me wonder about your motives in saying this now. Why didn't you make this point 3 RL days ago?

I wasn't thinking clearly.

[sigma]

Another interpretation of your actions is that you're distancing yourself from what you know to be a mis-lynch by defending the lynch candidate, but only doing it when you know it's unlikely to save him.

[Porkens]

That seems like a pretty far-fetched interpretation.

[Sotty7]

Welcome to the game, sotty!

That's why I wanted to replace into this game, it's stock full of players I have played with before and had a good game with, or players I know though association and want to play with. The only players I don't know in that respect are Cruciare and TJM.

I'm curious -- did I play with an alt of yours? Or did you forget to include me in with Cruciare and TMJ?

No, I don't have an alt. You fall into the second group of players that I know by association. I'm married to Zachrulez, so I know just how good of a scum player you can be. But so far I like what I see from you, just want more. Yeah, I'm greedy.

However with that said, I would much rather lynch TMJ over Pops today, but neither is my ideal lynch.

The who is, and why?

This is interesting. To me, posts like this are slightly scummy. Pressuring a replacement for thoughts on their lynch candidates before all the questions she asked have been answered seems a bit dodgy to me. Combined with Cathart's "Hamlet" approach to deciding if pops is town or not, makes the colonel look a little more likely as scum, in my opinion.

I don't think it is particularly scummy of CC to ask me who I think should be the lynch. I probably would have asked me the same question in his situation considering the deadline rushing up. Still agree there is something off about the Col.

Another interpretation of your actions is that you're distancing yourself from what you know to be a mis-lynch by defending the lynch candidate, but only doing it when you know it's unlikely to save him.

This is one way to look at it. The reason I asked Porkens who his number one was because he never really stated that clearly in thread one way or the other. Some players play like this, with the “pressure” votes regardless of alignment.

So with your vote on TMJ Porkens, does that mean he is your number one right now? Who's your number two?

[Cruciare]

I don't like this deadline. The closer to it we get, the weirder some people start to act. I'm starting to draw paranoid interpretations like Sigma's on various players, and it's making me feel uneasy. I may now be willing to lynch like half the people on the playerlist just so we won't have a no lynch.

@Mod: Your judgement that we won't need further extensions is probably based on the assumption of a near-unanimous Pops desperation lynch today. If that doesn't look like it's going to happen, would you consider extending it further?

I have absolutely no stake at all at what the players decide to do with day 1. The deadline has been two weeks since the game has begun, and I extended it by about a day for the

sole

reason that a replacement came into the game some 30 hours before the deadline. If a majority of players feel as though they need longer to come to a decision, I will extend the deadline once (per game day) with respect to that request.

[Col.Cathart]

However with that said, I would much rather lynch TMJ over Pops today, but neither is my ideal lynch.

The who is, and why?

This is interesting. To me, posts like this are slightly scummy. Pressuring a replacement for thoughts on their lynch candidates before all the questions she asked have been answered seems a bit dodgy to me. Combined with Cathart's "Hamlet" approach to deciding if pops is town or not, makes the colonel look a little more likely as scum, in my opinion.

Well, the answer is much simpler, I was just curious about Sotty's main suspect. That's a pretty normal deal, almost everyone here got to answer that question at some point, aye? Deadline is on our backs, and I think that even without answers to all those questions, Sotty already has her list of suspects, so I wanted to know, as she just told us, that it is neither TMJ nor Pops.

[Vi]

Vi

Why are you voting for Pops? Is the deadline factoring into it?

The only explanation I can come up with for pops' actions at this point is Refuge in Audacity; I know pops can play better than he has so far. (Besides, isn't reading the game you want to replace into BEFORE you jump in kind of what most people do anyway? Then why the surprise?)
The deadline is a factor because it's stifling discussion to a degree, not that I seem to be able to do much about that...

I don't like this deadline. The closer to it we get, the weirder some people start to act. I'm starting to draw paranoid interpretations like Sigma's on various players, and it's making me feel uneasy. I may now be willing to lynch like half the people on the playerlist just so we won't have a no lynch.

Explain.

@Mod: Your judgement that we won't need further extensions is probably based on the assumption of a near-unanimous Pops desperation lynch today. If that doesn't look like it's going to happen, would you consider extending it further?

Objection.
Also, I don't recognize you without your previous avatar.

Col.Kittyhart 267 is yet another waffle, and while these two most recent posts aren't really scumtells IMO, they are also not Towntells. If time permitted I would actually like to press here next.

I endorse this questioning of Porkens by Sotty7. To that end, I would like to add my own question.

The next couple days in the game could drastically change the effects of

[pops']

claim.

How so?

[Cruciare]

I don't like this deadline. The closer to it we get, the weirder some people start to act. I'm starting to draw paranoid interpretations like Sigma's on various players, and it's making me feel uneasy. I may now be willing to lynch like half the people on the playerlist just so we won't have a no lynch.

Explain.

It wouldn't hurt you to be a little clearer, would it?

[jammer]

jammer

Do you always throw your vote around so much?

Nope, does the voting bother you?

Pops- Can you please make a nice detailed post about each player and your thoughts on them, as well as who you would like to see lynched in the upcoming days and why... Consider this like your last will and testament since a few people have already said they will hammer you at deadline.

So note: You´re not voting him, see no reason to not trust his doc claim. But doesn´t seem bothered at all with him being voted. Even poking him to make a testament before he dies.

As for the pops vs. TMJ business. It seems those are becoming the lynch targets, I am fine with lynching any of those two. Thinking about it, I think TMJ is the best lynch.

Unvote: Sotty
Vote: TMJ

[Vi]

I don't like this deadline. The closer to it we get, the weirder some people start to act. I'm starting to draw paranoid interpretations like Sigma's on various players, and it's making me feel uneasy.

I may now be willing to lynch like half the people on the playerlist just so we won't have a no lynch.

Explain.

It wouldn't hurt you to be a little clearer, would it?

Do you think that a majority will not converge to lynch someone today?
Do you think it would be out of your skill level to campaign for the person you think is most scummy to be lynched? (Who is most scummy IYO, anyway?)
Who is on or off this "half the people on the playerlist"?

How is this terribly different from answering a survey?

Cut by jammer: Nice to see that you don't have many thoughts beyond the bare minimum

[RedCoyote]

I deleted a double post instead of just editing it out so the post numbers for this page have jumped a bit. I'll just edit it out next time.

[Porkens]

Objection.[/quote]

This has enriched my life, I sincerely thank you!.

I endorse this questioning of Porkens by Sotty7. To that end, I would like to add my own question.

The next couple days in the game could drastically change the effects of

[pops']

claim.

How so?

I endorse it too.

A scum claiming doc hopes to preserve his own life and perhaps draw out a/the real doctor. However, a tracker, watcher, or even cop can spoil the fakeclaim. Or a/the real doctor could be killed, and we'd go "wait a minute, TWO doctors?!" So to some extent, I think it's likely to bite him in the ass if he's lying.

I just don't think the risk is worth the reward. I know, it's weird coming from me. And I don't even know if I believe the claim, I'm neutral on it I think. But with other choices available, I think lynching the claimed doctor day 1 is foolhardy.

[Porkens]

I also second

Edgy

Vi about the deadline. I'm pro-deadline, myself.

[popsofctown]

I was pressed for a second most suspicious person, so i say porkens and the vague reason for it. I don't feel the need to develop a strong second cantidate until TMJ flips or i'm lynched or nightkilled anyway. After TMJ flips i have more information.

[imaginality]

imaginality
Do you find Vi scummy for her case on you?

Nope. At a rough summary, Vi's case on me was that I was:

(i) asking about scum doc possibilities for an ulterior motive
(ii) not being clear about whether I want pops lynched or not
(iii) being opportunistic and lurkery

(i) is a perception thing, hopefully my responses to Vi showed that I was asking about scumdoc out of genuine curiosity/caution rather than rolefishing reasons (though 224 indicates Vi still has some doubt about that, but that's okay)

(ii) is fair enough, I can see why Vi wanted to press me about that and get me to clarify where I stood/stand

(iii) hopefully clarifying (ii) made it clearer I wasn't being opportunistic, as for posting frequency I admit I'm not as active at times as I could be, so again I can see where Vi was coming from, though I think my not-always-as-active-as-I-could-be-ness is at least, consistent across most of my games rather than a scumtell since it's due to fluctuations in RL rather than scummy intent.

So, no, I don't think Vi was scummy for making a case on me. And the way in which Vi dropped it when it was clear others weren't joining the wagon seemed okay, too, leaving it with "we need to keep an eye on him" rather than letting it drop completely.

[Cruciare]

Do you think that a majority will not converge to lynch someone today?
Do you think it would be out of your skill level to campaign for the person you think is most scummy to be lynched? (Who is most scummy IYO, anyway?)
Who is on or off this "half the people on the playerlist"?

How is this terribly different from answering a survey?

1. I'm specifically talking about Pops, the one who has the highest number of votes currently. I think it's possible that he may not be lynched today. I'm seeing a lack of willingness to vote for a claimed doc. That said, I am expressing my willingness to move my vote as necessary to achieve lynch. If support for a Pops lynch is lacking, we can only lynch someone else if we have the time to reconverge.
2. Yes, I believe it is out of my skill level. I find Pops the most scummy, but the fact that he's claimed doc is an avalanche against my ability to convince other people to lynch him. Like I said, my wanting to lynch Pops is more gut than logic. Even logically, I am starting to have doubts about Pops, not because of Pops himself but because of how some other people are reacting to him. For example, the absence of notable objection to his claim. What do you think about this?
3. So I may have exaggerated about half. I can tell you that Pops, Jammer, and TMJ are definitely on there. You, DRK, Sigma, and myself are definitely not on there. Porkens is almost not on there. As for the others, I'm willing to lynch

certain individuals

under

certain circumstances

, but I won't say anymore. >_>
4.

IT'S ACTUALLY RELEVANT TO THE GAME.

Fun fact, your imperative 'Explain' reminds me of our national assessment standard here in New Zealand, and after a string of exams I'd rather not have to pull a thesis out of my ass from a one word question. This is my cynic's impression what it might look like.

[Sotty7]

Vi

Why are you voting for Pops? Is the deadline factoring into it?

The only explanation I can come up with for pops' actions at this point is Refuge in Audacity; I know pops can play better than he has so far. (Besides, isn't reading the game you want to replace into BEFORE you jump in kind of what most people do anyway? Then why the surprise?)
The deadline is a factor because it's stifling discussion to a degree, not that I seem to be able to do much about that...

The reason I ask is because you seemed to believe his claim earlier. Am I wrong with that assessment?

jammer

Do you always throw your vote around so much?

Nope, does the voting bother you?

Kinda makes me take your vote less seriously, like you don't believe in your own suspects. If you don't normally do this, why in this game?

I once again find myself agreeing with Porkens post 286. But still I don't know who he finds the most suspicious. The vote on TMJ feels like a settle vote (a vote that is not for a claimed doc) and he didn't name a second suspect when asked. Why the secrecy?

Going out to eat, I'll be back later to post my top suspects.

[Tjoe Min Ja]

I once again find myself agreeing with Porkens post 286. But still I don't know who he finds the most suspicious. The vote on TMJ feels like a settle vote (a vote that is not for a claimed doc) and he didn't name a second suspect when asked. Why the secrecy?

porkens

[Porkens]

hmmm, I see where this suspicion wagon is headed lemme say this now:

The case on me seems to be:

erratic behavior (which hasn't been cited, only fabricated)
a pro-town suggestion (too pro-town must be scum)

in short; crap

TMJ jumping on it is just another senseless action to add to his pile.

I don't have "suspects" insomuch as I have a mental list of "good lynches"

TMJ is the best lynch so far today.
Cruciare wouldn't be terrible either so I guess there's your answer.

[Vi]

@Porkens

...I still don't see this being pops-Town behavior, but for now I'm willing to go along with pops being pinned to his claim as good enough for now.
In the event that he's Town, I can only hope that his Night choices are better than his Day game.

-----

imaginality, is there anything you would like to add to the discussion without being prompted? Likewise for TMJ.

-----

The reason I ask is because you seemed to believe his claim earlier. Am I wrong with that assessment?

In a sense. The thought process worked like this.
*Doctor is the #1 fakeclaim for scum and early on I'm tempted to openly recommend Lynch All Claimed Doctors.
*However, from what I know of pops' meta, it's not entirely out of line for him to play like lynchbait (unintentionally) as Town.
So at the time of his claim -1 + 1 = 0, and I didn't feel I had a definitive idea of what to do with it.
*However, then pops started playing like lynchbait (intentionally).
I really can't rationalize pops as not realizing how bad he sounds

and not doing anything about it

. Then again, I have this same complaint about at least one other player in this game so <_<

-----

@Cruciare: First, I will apologize for "Explain". I didn't realize until you pointed it out that I kind of failed at teh Engleesh.
(No comment on educational standards; I just went back to a high school event and heard all about how apparently learning isn't actually the point of a secondary education.)

For example, the absence of notable objection to his claim. What do you think about this?

I think there has been plenty of notable objection to pops' claim, as evidenced by people still wanting to lynch him.
Counterquestion. What would you expect scum to do when confronted with Townpops' claim?
To contrast, what would you expect Town to do when confronted with ?pops' claim?

-----

I'm going to

Unvote: popsofctown

for the moment.
Realistically speaking this vote will go toward TMJ sometime in the next 24 hours. However, I believe there's definitely worth in questioning around until then.

-----

Cut.

The case on me seems to be:

erratic behavior (which hasn't been cited, only fabricated)
a pro-town suggestion (too pro-town must be scum)

in short; crap

?
Are you saying in your first statement that you have not done anything that could look suspicious?

Cruciare wouldn't be terrible either so I guess there's your answer.

?

[Cruciare]

For example, the absence of notable objection to his claim. What do you think about this?

I think there has been plenty of notable objection to pops' claim, as evidenced by people still wanting to lynch him.
Counterquestion. What would you expect scum to do when confronted with Townpops' claim?
To contrast, what would you expect Town to do when confronted with ?pops' claim?

I don't know if you remember, but when Pops first claimed, everyone except TMJ and myself eventually unvoted, and no-one voted him again until much later on threat of deadline. I have said that my objection was not one based on objective evidence, and TMJ isn't exactly notable. Given the general belief that A) There is a probably a doctor, and B) There is probably no more than one doctor, if Pops isn't the doctor, does the reaction after Pops's claim really make sense? Speculation about this can be potentially dangerous so I'd like to avoid talking about it too much, but do you understand what I'm getting at here?

As for your questions, I don't think Pops's claim would influence the scum's desire to get him lynched all that much, since they can, you know, kill him at night. The advantage of getting free choice on their nightkill instead is not large. The problem here is that Y.C. was, for a reasonable period of time, the only person being suspected (besides the occasional TMJ of course). If scum were being suspected then they would be more inclined to want to lynch Pops, but otherwise whether they want to remove the doc as soon as possible or look innocent by not supporting his lynch, I wouldn't know. Personally, I might go for the look innocent strategy, but preferences differ.

With town, the problem is that everyone's playing style is starkly different. Town play makes less sense than scum play, you know. Throughout my lurking here on MafiaScum, I've seen town react a spectrum of different ways when confronted with a claim. As such, I have no expectations whatsoever.

[Porkens]

Are you saying in your first statement that you have not done anything that could look suspicious?

Oh no, of course not. Generally speaking; any behavior

could

, as you said, look suspicious. More specifically; I'm sure some of my behavior is easily interpretable as suspicious. However, I don't think I've been "erratic."

?

That's right, I just quoted your question mark. I think Crucial's 290 is incredibly ill-conceived. That stands out more than much else.

[Vi]

That's right, I just quoted your question mark. I think Crucial's 290 is incredibly ill-conceived. That stands out more than much else.

Either I've been riding the slow bus for understanding you or I need to stop playing Mafia while half-asleep. What about it is incredibly ill-conceived?

In addition, I think you're misrepresenting the accusation against your play by labeling it "erratic", although this is colored by amnesia and my own opinion of your play.

-----

@Cruciare 295: I'm pretty sure I see what you're saying. As a bonus, I think you've answered all of my other questions before you asked them.

[Sotty7]

I once again find myself agreeing with Porkens post 286. But still I don't know who he finds the most suspicious. The vote on TMJ feels like a settle vote (a vote that is not for a claimed doc) and he didn't name a second suspect when asked. Why the secrecy?

porkens

This isn't helpful. For one the question isn't even directed at you TMJ and B, you list no reasons. You are once again sheeping (somewhat recent) popular opinion and is the reason why people find you suspicious in the first place. I'm guessing you are telling me Porkens is your number two after Pops, alright, why?

hmmm, I see where this suspicion wagon is headed lemme say this now:

The case on me seems to be:

erratic behavior (which hasn't been cited, only fabricated)
a pro-town suggestion (too pro-town must be scum)

in short; crap

TMJ jumping on it is just another senseless action to add to his pile.

I don't have "suspects" insomuch as I have a mental list of "good lynches"

TMJ is the best lynch so far today.
Cruciare wouldn't be terrible either so I guess there's your answer.

I don't think there is a case on you as of right now. A few people have aired suspicions but you have no votes. I have some suspicion of you but it has nothing to do with the two points you have listed and more to do with the lack of actual suspects. Good lynches just feels like a scum phrase to explain away mislynches, at least what's what my paranoia is telling me. Of course you could just be one of those players that plays more gut over laying out suspects and I will have to look into that. We have only played together once and it was in a game I would rather forget as my play was awful (Letting Zero live is something I will never live down). I will have a look back at it this weekend and see if the play is similar or not.

---

The reason I ask is because you seemed to believe his claim earlier. Am I wrong with that assessment?

In a sense. The thought process worked like this.
*Doctor is the #1 fakeclaim for scum and early on I'm tempted to openly recommend Lynch All Claimed Doctors.
*However, from what I know of pops' meta, it's not entirely out of line for him to play like lynchbait (unintentionally) as Town.
So at the time of his claim -1 + 1 = 0, and I didn't feel I had a definitive idea of what to do with it.
*However, then pops started playing like lynchbait (intentionally).
I really can't rationalize pops as not realizing how bad he sounds

and not doing anything about it

. Then again, I have this same complaint about at least one other player in this game so <_<

Okay, that does seem reasonable. But I do have an issue with you and Pops claim which makes me believe you are scum. Lets go back in time...

I'm not vanilla town, i'm doctor. Day 1 doctor death again.
I give up.

I give up.

No you don't.

At this time I don't have an objection to pops' claim.

When reading I took this as you welcomed the claim seeing Pops was at lynch-1. But also you thought it was believable. I'm pretty sure you would have said something if you didn't believe him. You weren't voting him at this point and had said you would hammer.

This would be the part where I vote you, but I really don't want to end the Day before afatchic shows up. TMJ showing up and commenting about almost being the center of attention would be nice too.

So “no objection” and no mention of your hammer intentions makes me think you believed his claim when he made it.

Then we get this:

I'm not vanilla town, i'm doctor. Day 1 doctor death again.
I give up.

I'm not sure what the optimal play for us is in this situation, but I'm not buying it. If however lynching Pops today is not going to happen, like I said I would be fine moving my vote to Jammer. Would someone with experience care to share a little wisdom as to how to proceed?

Vaguely scummy because he could be testing the waters to see how lynchable Pops is right now. But it could be a valid new player question too.

Would someone with experience care to share a little wisdom as to how to proceed?

My advice at this point is to make your own decisions, starting as of your last post.

Cruciare, what is TMJ if pops=Town? None of this "consider"ing mess. Take a stance.

I think Porkens may be on the right track with what he's saying (>")>

EBWOP: My advice at this point is for you to make your own decisions, etc.

Vi pushes Cruciare to take a stance, which is right. We're not in a newbie game, no hand holding needed here. Cruciare comes back and basically validates her vote on Pops. This gets this response from Vi.

@Cruciare: Wanting to lynch a claimed power role is only unreasonable if you don't have a good reason to back up your vote. If you think pops is scum and pulling this claim out of his rear, go for it.

For someone who at this point believed Pops claim, this seems really out of place. At this point I am starting to think the “no objection” to the claim was purposely worded in such away that gives Vi the ability to roll either way in regards to the Pops claim. Here she is telling Cruciare to keep her vote on the claimed Doc, despite having voiced no objections to the claim herself. It doesn't add up. In my opinion it is a subtle attempt to keep the wagon on Pops alive in the hope that she might be able to lynch the (hypo)doc.

Vote: Vi

I understand it's pretty unlikely I am going to get a Vi lynch today. I will move my vote at deadline to TMJ unless a better suspect comes up.

[Sotty7]

Several people now have said they find Cruciare scummy in some way. Maybe I am missing something. I'm willing to review my stance if something solid is brought forward.