/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[mith]

Vote Count:

7 to lynch.

PookyTheMagicalBear: 3 (iamausername, Kmd4390, populartajo)
VP Baltar: 3 (ekiM, SerialClergyman, Thesp)
Kmd4390: 2 (elvis_knits, roflcopter)
charter: 1 (zu_Faul)

Not Voting: 4 (charter, PookyTheMagicalBear, VP Baltar, Yosarian2)

[roflcopter]

i don't like the return to the vp baltar wagon. i think he's telling the truth about his role.

i also don't like how pooky managed to generate more words than he had for the entire game saying what boiled down to "here's why your votes for me suck" and nothing else

but mostly i don't like the lack of further kmd votes. come on guys.

[elvis_knits]

If this doesn't pan out, rofl, I'm going to charter.

[roflcopter]

meh. i should take another look at charter, but my gut still says town.

[Kmd4390]

I just isoskimmed Charter. He's town.

[roflcopter]

kmd has done nothing today but argue over what "i agree with x" entails and now agree with me on one of my reads. can we lynch this guy already?

[Kmd4390]

Rofl, what haven't I done that you'd like me to?

[zu_Faul]

I can't believe you guys are still desperately trying to misinterpret KMD.

I got a feeling Baltar is not the way to go. I doubt he was investigated by Ojanen. She did not even mention him until others voiced their suspicions of him.

Pooky has done nothing to easy my suspicions. His argument against VP Baltar is: "Well, Goon Cop voted him." Also, he is trying to misinterpret KMD. It looks like he grabs whatever argument is conveniently lying around, regardless of its value, instead of actual scumhunting.

[VP Baltar]

VP, who do you think is scum, and why?

Not much has happened to change my scum list. I misinterpreted Xyl's reasonless push on me, but Oj flipping town isn't much of a surprise. I still say the sheer ignorance given to the points I presented against ekiM yesterday is a strong indicator that he is scum. Even though I directly asked for people's opinions on what I presented and if they were or were not valid arguments, I received essentially nothing but crickets.

Here was my top five suspects yesterday:

ekiM
IAAUN
SC
Yos
Thesp

Three out of those five persons have emerged today with no desire more than to string me up without any discussion because "OMG OJ AND XYL WERE TOWN". From my perspective, this looks like a calculated move to hurry through this day.

Other than yourself on that list, Yos, can you give me your brief opinion on each of those players' contributions to this game thus far?

Kmd, do you think your "I agree" statement was obvious as to what you were agreeing with?

[iamausername]

mostly cuz after yesterday you'd expect the push to be for baltar due to the whole gooncop pointing at baltar all day yesterday. instead iam opens up with this comment about how VP baltar is still scum then pushes at me with a vote. a kind of draw up anger at this lousy lurking bear in the corner while covering his ass in case baltar gets run up from yesterday's stuff and promptly lynch. then his partner kmd blindly jumps in after him.

thats probly the best reason for voting me while implying baltar's scumminess in light of what happened yesterday.

I'm scum with VP? Really? That's what you're going with?

rofl and VP are still scum, but Pooky has given us absolutely nothing, and

that needs to stop

.

Note how the bolded does not say "Pooky needs to die". I wasn't saying "Pooky is lurking, let's lynch him instead!", I was saying "Pooky is lurking, let's threaten to lynch him, that'll get him to actually contribute!" And guess what, it's working!

If you assume that Ojanen did not have a guilty investigation on VP (which she clearly didn't, for reasons that have already been explained), do you still have a reason to believe VP is scum?

[SerialClergyman]

iam, if it's working, and the vote on Pooky is unnecessary, I suggest the VP wagon is the place where all the cool kids go to hang.

So as far as I can tell, rofl, yos2 and elvis all said that claiming vanilla wasn't worthwhile for Bab but are yet to do much about VP's vanilla claim. Worth noting. (despite howls of protest about slightly different circumstances etc)

It's also worth noting that one of the most likely roles for rofl to claim after his softclaiming bonanza yesterday just flipped and it wasn't him. I reject the idea that he's vanilla or otherwise protown without role info and was just absuing a softclaim to try to get people to not vote someone he had a good read on. So he's on my scumlist with Yos2.

Kmd has been looking less likely to be town since D1.

And I am still wondering about wagon speed (which made me think VP was likely town before).

This is true, except the people on it aren't the scummier people. Plus look at the scenario. The biggest wagon around that time was me with 5 votes, which was essentially a lurker wagon. It never really looked like getting a lynch. There was some movement on ekiM but again, there wasn't much momentum. So the town is scattered and noone really knows what to do. Then someone obviously protown makes a long and convincing case about someone and pressures people to join the wagon. That will always get votes. That's the best way I've got to explain it. But I think explaining how that wagon with that momentum and those people pushing it still failed to get a lynch if VP is town is a LOT harder.

Yos2's point about Ojanen getting killed is true (there must be town on the VP wagon, so scum can always kill someone on that wagon) for Ojanen, but not for Xyl. Either way, a few people used the players on the wagon as a reason not to vote VP, from memory, so having both of those two flip town should show their motivations were genuine.

The fact that he missed or ignored the whole 'everything that he was voted to l-1 for, his vanilla claim, the wagon shifting onto a confirmed town' etc etc reasons is less impressive.

I agree Ojenen almost certainly didn't have a guilty on Baltar.

I think there's almost no point voting charter until you know about VP. If the main reason to dislike charter is because how hard he was pushing for Xyl and derailing VP, that only makes sense for scumcharter if VP is scum. Otherwise he could have just hammered or kept quiet. So you might as well find out about VP first. I'm finding reading charter very hard.

[Yosarian2]

iam, if it's working, and the vote on Pooky is unnecessary, I suggest the VP wagon is the place where all the cool kids go to hang.

So as far as I can tell, rofl, yos2 and elvis all said that claiming vanilla wasn't worthwhile for Bab but are yet to do much about VP's vanilla claim. Worth noting. (despite howls of protest about slightly different circumstances etc)

No, VP's vanilla claim makes lynching him a lower risk, just like it did with bab. One difference, though, that now that we're down to 13 people with only 4 or 5 scum, it has become pretty crucial to lynch scum today; there is no longer such a thing as a safe lynch in this game.

It's also worth noting that one of the most likely roles for rofl to claim after his softclaiming bonanza yesterday just flipped and it wasn't him. I reject the idea that he's vanilla or otherwise protown without role info and was just absuing a softclaim to try to get people to not vote someone he had a good read on. So he's on my scumlist with Yos2.

I can't believe you're fishing for ROFL's role, AGAIN.

It's especially bad since your argument here dosn't even make sense; you seem to be saying "rofl was breadcrumbing that Yos was innocent, and now we know he's not the goon cop, so he must have been lying!"

Putting aside for the moment the question of if rofl was breadcrumbing or not; there are a lot of possible roles listed in the mod's post that could tell if someone is innocent, AND GOON COP IS NOT ONE OF THEM. If you think he was breadcrumbing an innocent, then I can't imagine how you could have thought goon cop was "one of the most likely roles for him to claim"; a goon cop CAN'T GET an innocent result, just a guilty one (since a "not goon" result is clearly not an innocent result).

Anyway, stop trying to find out what roles people have. It's really anti-town.

Plus look at the scenario. The biggest wagon around that time was me with 5 votes, which was essentially a lurker wagon.

BTW, that is not really true; lurking was not the main reason people were voting you yesterday, IMHO, just a small contributing factor.

[SerialClergyman]

No, VP's vanilla claim makes lynching him a lower risk, just like it did with bab. One difference, though, that now that we're down to 13 people with only 4 or 5 scum, it has become pretty crucial to lynch scum today; there is no longer such a thing as a safe lynch in this game.

Oh cool, so it was fine before but not now. That doesn't make me link scum you to scum baltar at all.

I can't believe you're fishing for ROFL's role, AGAIN.

Meh, time for us to grow up on this point. Rofl needs to be scruitinised and I don't care if people are saying I'm role fishing for doing it.

Not to mention I'd love to hear the scum motivation for me killing Ojanen if I was scum concerned with rofl's role. In fact, I'd love to hear the motivation for scum to kill Ojanen instead of rofl if rofl was a pro-town PR.

And even aside from THAT, it's hardly surprising that you don't want rofl's claimed role to have any scruitny, because as long as it doesn't you're safe from votes.

Putting aside for the moment the question of if rofl was breadcrumbing or not; there are a lot of possible roles listed in the mod's post that could tell if someone is innocent, AND GOON COP IS NOT ONE OF THEM. If you think he was breadcrumbing an innocent, then I can't imagine how you could have thought goon cop was "one of the most likely roles for him to claim"; a goon cop CAN'T GET an innocent result, just a guilty one (since a "not goon" result is clearly not an innocent result).

I never raised that question. What makes you bring up a possible breadcrumb?

But even if I did, that's the whole point of why a softclaim was crap and should have been dealt with yesterday. Now he can merrily claim something other than a goon cop if he gets targeted. While a goon cop can't clear someone, I'd definitely want to indicate that I had a non-goon result on someone were I that kind of cop. But a goon cop flip also makes things like an ACTUAL cop less likely to exist. So I stand by the fact that a goon cop flip makes it less likely rofl is a PR.

But either way - I don't really care what rofl claims his role is, he can never mention a softclaim ever again for all I care - he's in my books as scum, right under your name.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Yosa, you scum?

[Yosarian2]

No, VP's vanilla claim makes lynching him a lower risk, just like it did with bab. One difference, though, that now that we're down to 13 people with only 4 or 5 scum, it has become pretty crucial to lynch scum today; there is no longer such a thing as a safe lynch in this game.

Oh cool, so it was fine before but not now. That doesn't make me link scum you to scum baltar at all.

The vanilla claim was not the main reason I was voting B&B, and you know it.

And yes, it is fine to do a "safe lynch" on day 1, and not fine to do one when we might be only 1 or 2 days away from lynch or lose. Why would you quote an obviously true statement and then say that it makes me scum with VP?

I can't believe you're fishing for ROFL's role, AGAIN.

Meh, time for us to grow up on this point. Rofl needs to be scruitinised and I don't care if people are saying I'm role fishing for doing it.

If you want to make a case on him, please do so. But you continuing to try to pry a role out of him, especally with that kind of bad logic, is just anti-town and scummy. If you want to find out his role, then make a case on him, get him to lynch -1, and then ask him to claim; trying to get someone who you think is hinting at a pro-town power role to claim when there's not even a wagon on him is INCREDIBLY scummy.

Not to mention I'd love to hear the scum motivation for me killing Ojanen if I was scum concerned with rofl's role. In fact, I'd love to hear the motivation for scum to kill Ojanen instead of rofl if rofl was a pro-town PR.

Well, the scum wouldn't actually know if rofl is a power role or not yet. Hence the fishing.

Plus, Ojanen was a cop, and obviously pro-town to boot. Why wouldn't scum kill her?

And even aside from THAT, it's hardly surprising that you don't want rofl's claimed role to have any scruitny, because as long as it doesn't you're safe from votes.

He didn't claim a role. He shouldn't, unless he has information HE thinks the town needs to have today, or unless he's going to get lynched if he dosn't claim. Those are the only cases a pro-town person should claim.

Putting aside for the moment the question of if rofl was breadcrumbing or not; there are a lot of possible roles listed in the mod's post that could tell if someone is innocent, AND GOON COP IS NOT ONE OF THEM. If you think he was breadcrumbing an innocent, then I can't imagine how you could have thought goon cop was "one of the most likely roles for him to claim"; a goon cop CAN'T GET an innocent result, just a guilty one (since a "not goon" result is clearly not an innocent result).

I never raised that question. What makes you bring up a possible breadcrumb?

Um...bull shit. That's exactly what you were talking about when you kept saying he was "softclaiming".

But even if I did, that's the whole point of why a softclaim was crap and should have been dealt with yesterday.

Yes, we all know you wanted him to claim yesterday.

While a goon cop can't clear someone, I'd definitely want to indicate that I had a non-goon result on someone were I that kind of cop.

Why? Did you see the variety of possible mafia roles in the second post? What % of the scum team do you think is goons?

But a goon cop flip also makes things like an ACTUAL cop less likely to exist.

Not at all. A goon cop is something like 1/3 to half as useful as a regular cop; it can't get confirmed innocents at all, which is the main point of a regular cop, and it's less likely to get a guilty as well. I would be surprised if that was our only info role in this game.

[zu_Faul]

If the main reason to dislike charter is because how hard he was pushing for Xyl and derailing VP, that only makes sense for scumcharter if VP is scum. Otherwise he could have just hammered or kept quiet.

It's not the main reason.

I now that that my reason for unvoting SerialClergyman yesterday was not that good. I get a scummy read out of him during the last posts.

[elvis_knits]

Pooky has done nothing to easy my suspicions. His argument against VP Baltar is: "Well, Goon Cop voted him."

I agree that was a bad argument from pooky.

---

So as far as I can tell, rofl, yos2 and elvis all said that claiming vanilla wasn't worthwhile for Bab but are yet to do much about VP's vanilla claim. Worth noting. (despite howls of protest about slightly different circumstances etc)

What I said was that if you think a person is scum and want to lynch them, a vanilla claim should not change that. The vanilla claim is not what changed my mind about VP.

It's also worth noting that one of the most likely roles for rofl to claim after his softclaiming bonanza yesterday just flipped and it wasn't him.

There's more than one role that could have that type of info, and actually there is no limit on number of players with the same role. So I don't see how Ojanen flipping goon cop makes rofl look any better or worse.

This is true, except the people on it aren't the scummier people.

Actually most of my top suspects were on VP.

Not to mention I'd love to hear the scum motivation for me killing Ojanen if I was scum concerned with rofl's role. In fact, I'd love to hear the motivation for scum to kill Ojanen instead of rofl if rofl was a pro-town PR.

This is horrible. We've had no docs die this game, so scum are likely trying to avoid having their kill blocked. So they don't want to target anyone who is likely to draw a protect. And anyone softclaiming info is likely to get a protect. So they have to kill someone who is not likely to get a protect, but is looking pro-town or unattackable -- and Ojanen fits that bill.

Nevermind that your argument is bad WIFOM anyway. Maybe scum purposely chose to kill someone other than rofl so they could be like "Why is he still alive! Let's lynch him he's obv lying."

But a goon cop flip also makes things like an ACTUAL cop less likely to exist.

Really?

[roflcopter]

Rofl, what haven't I done that you'd like me to?

anything really. i'd particularly love if you'd stop stringing out the wait for your votecount analysis, which you began touting during the end of the day yesterday and we still haven't seen anything of.

serialclergyman needs a lesson on what constitutes fishing for a role and what doesn't. you're not "scrutinizing" me, you're trying to pare down the list of roles i could possibly be and get me to confirm or deny something. harping on the fact that i'm probably not a goon cop doesn't make me less likely to be anything else, and based on what i've been saying thinking i'm a goon cop was pretty dense anyway. not that a dead goon cop makes another goon cop any less likely in a game where multiples of all roles are possible. you're actually completely ignoring any and all roles which could in fact confirm someone as town.

i could go back to serialclergyman, but i'd rather see kmdwagon gain some traction here. come out and bus him, little scumbags. i noticed you laying the groundwork for it, sc, so why don't you hurry up and vote for him?

people who are town

yos
baltar
elvis
charter

[Kmd4390]

Rofl, as soon as I have time to go through the entire game and do my own vote counts, I'll do it.

[roflcopter]

Rofl, as soon as I have time to go through the entire game and do my own vote counts, I'll do it.

you signed up for a new large game

yesterday

but you don't have time to make use of the vote-order counts left specifically for you by xyl, which you finally acknowledged when i rammed them down your throat? i call shenanigans.

[VP Baltar]

Lurking a majority of day 1 while posting elsewhere--check

Sluffing onto my wagon yesterday for shaky meta reasons and 'Yeah, what Oj said'--check

Wanting to speed lynch me today based on nightkills and various WIFOM--check

Incessant rolefishing--check

Vote: SerialCleargyman

--check

[iamausername]

If you want to find out his role, then make a case on him, get him to lynch -1, and then ask him to claim

This is a fantastic idea, let's do this.

[Kmd4390]

Rofl, I need to go through almost 50 pages and see every vote and where they were at the end of each day. Two wagons alone won't do it. I'll do it though. Probably Tuesday. Some day when I'm sitting around bored as hell looking for something to do.

[SerialClergyman]

Yeah rofl, I need that lesson as much as people need to learn that asking someone why persuing your suspect is a scumtell isn't rolefishing. Zzz.

I want a full claim from rofl, because at the moment I absolutely don't believe him. If it takes a wagon to do it, (and it shouldn't given the circumstances) let's step up.

unvote, vote rofl

[iamausername]

yessss

Unvote, vote: roflcopter