MtG: Parallel Universe Mafia (SSK's Subgame): Game OVER!

[Head_Honcho]

You have never told me how that is strawmanning. I guess I am beginning to suspect you don't know what it means, which kind of makes sense since you apparently don't know what ad hominem means either.

Anyway, I'll accept that you will never explain this to me if it is really putting you out that much.

You went after me because I was reading the other games, just like almost everyone else did, to try and stay caught up with theirs and ours. You also assumed that I was making our game a lower priority than the others via post 207.

Yes, let's go ahead and look at post 207

I didn't go through all of Day 1 without saying anything. I was reading the other games to try and see where they were at, just like everyone else did, before posting in ours.

That's quite an accusation to make also when your first real post wasn't until yesterday.

Who is that directed at?

Why would you make this game a lower priority than the others?

I don't like how instead of answering a legitimate question or at least clarifying my 'misunderstanding' you lashed out at me. So let's just make this easy, why don't you quote one of your posts day one before the hammer in which you were contributing to this game. That way we can see just how wrong I was to ask you such a dumb question! (I'm talking scumhunting, or even opinions)

I do not like that you want to disregard anything going on in the other games.

I'm going to go ahead and completely disregard the other subgames until there is some explicit crossover.

And in one post (114), you go from the opinion of not wanting to pay attention to the other games

Anything that distracts unduly from the people in this specific game is not a good idea, and I think focusing a bunch of attention and posts on the other games falls under that.

to not wanting to ignore them completely.

I don't think the other games should be ignored entirely, for instance I think once we have night flavor/actions it could be helpful to compare them to the other games to try to get a feel for setup, but as far as picking lynches I think it would do us well to keep the majority of analysis directed at people we can actually affect with votes.

I don't like how you go from one extreme to the other in the very same post.

See, this is actually strawmanning. I never went from one extreme to the other. If anything my position on the subject became much more moderate, but I actually see the first part and the third part as the same thing, except in the third one you quoted I explained what I meant by explicit crossover.

I also do not like your ad hom attacks, like this:

It's apparently your word of the day so I'm curious where it actually applies to me.

This is not ad hominem at all, ad hominem is attacking the debater instead of the argument. Your argument seemed to begin and end with 'omg strawman' so I don't think it was unfair of me to ask for clarification.

I'm guessing that you haven't really played with Zwet. He definitely has a playstyle all his own. I have played quite a few games with him since joining this site, and I normally have a very difficult time reading him. This game though he was just acting very different from other games that we have played, and anyone else who has played with zwet extensively probably saw what I saw.

I haven't played with Zwet. That doesn't clear things up at all! Why would someone be more likely to be a townie if they were playing different than they normally do?

Did you happen to forget that this game is based on Magic: the Gathering? So Whoot "yammering on" about magic cards is definite speculation in my opinion.

It was all about the scum though, please show me (with a specific post of whoot's) where his speculation showed any intention or possibility of outing town power roles. Just talking about magic is not enough, plenty of people were talking about magic.

And then since you voted me I suppose I am entitled to ask, why do any of those things make me look scummy to you?

[Starbuck]

You have never told me how that is strawmanning. I guess I am beginning to suspect you don't know what it means, which kind of makes sense since you apparently don't know what ad hominem means either.

I do know what both strawmanning and ad hom mean, and I explained myself more than once to you. Obviously, you will never be satisfied with my answer which is why you continue to attack me via ad hom, even now.

I don't like how instead of answering a legitimate question or at least clarifying my 'misunderstanding' you lashed out at me. So let's just make this easy, why don't you quote one of your posts day one before the hammer in which you were contributing to this game. That way we can see just how wrong I was to ask you such a dumb question! (I'm talking scumhunting, or even opinions)

Where did I lash out? I did answer you, again since I didn't answer to your satisfaction, you automatically assume that I did not answer you. I did give opinions on Day 1, but I also was trying to catch up with other games as did many other people in our game.

See, this is actually strawmanning. I never went from one extreme to the other. If anything my position on the subject became much more moderate, but I actually see the first part and the third part as the same thing, except in the third one you quoted I explained what I meant by explicit crossover.

Where am I strawmanning? You definitely went from one extreme to the other in the very same post.

This is not ad hominem at all, ad hominem is attacking the debater instead of the argument. Your argument seemed to begin and end with 'omg strawman' so I don't think it was unfair of me to ask for clarification.

And you are attacking the debater, "It's apparently your word of the day" is not attacking the debater? As is your first blurb at the top of the last post?

I haven't played with Zwet. That doesn't clear things up at all! Why would someone be more likely to be a townie if they were playing different than they normally do?

Where did I say that he would more likely be a townie? I never did. I also never said that someone would be more likely to be townie if they were playing differently. I ONLY commented on the fact that ZWET was playing differently than what I am used to seeing him play.

It was all about the scum though, please show me (with a specific post of whoot's) where his speculation showed any intention or possibility of outing town power roles. Just talking about magic is not enough, plenty of people were talking about magic.

Speculation is speculation. He went off very far on a tangent that had us arguing more about what could POSSIBLY be in the game than what really is in the game. He was making assumptions and steering us off track.

why do any of those things make me look scummy to you?

Let's see, you have been VERY overaggressive since we started, and have been jumping around on different people. It seems like you want a lynch and you don't care who is lynched as long as it isn't you.

[Head_Honcho]

And now for boxman, first of all, despite you being scum something about you is very endearing.

Okay, here.

Honcho spent the first few days of the game making meaningless, useless posts (ISO 1, 2). In his next post, he decides immediately to start ignoring the other two games(ISO 3).

Post 1 was still waiting on three people to confirm. How does post 3 make me scum?

In ISO 9, he says that he didn't see anything particularly bad about Zwet and notes that he thinks Whoot is likely "noob scum." He also says he felt Zwet should have fakeclaimed. Possibly true, but still worth noting.

How does that make me scum? What about you whose lingering RVS vote contributed to lynching Zwet?

In his next couple of posts(ISO 11, 12, 13, 15), he tries to cast suspicion on Starbuck for not posting much on Day 1. As an afterthought(ISO 14, 16), he mentions qwints and whoot.

Actually I specifically said I was not attacking her activity, but where her focus was. Mentions of qwints and whoot were not afterthoughts, I don't know where you get that. Qwints was no longer in our game so I wasn't going to waste much energy and the one about Whoot simply said I wanted to hear from him.

In the following posts(ISO 17, 18), he talks a little about whoot. In the next post(ISO 19), he immediately says whoot is a bad lynch for the day.

Actually I literally said it 'I don't think it would be a terrible lynch', I just wasn't going to support it.

And in ISO 21, he says that whoot had no connections. He did. You tried to say that he was town immediately before his lynch, only because of a few comments from Percy.

In ISO 22, I honestly have no clue what Honcho is doing - dropping an attack because "no one called her on it?" He also attacks Slicey for "defending Starbuck based on meta?" And then votes him for possibly the weakest scumtell in the book, imo.

Actually everything I said about Slicey contributed to my desire to vote him. Do you think defending someone with extremely weak (and apparently nonexistent) meta is a particularly townie thing to do?

ISO 23 and 24 are weird, too. He comes out immediately with "I don't think there are any more traditional mafia in this game." Also, despite Percy being scum making him think that whoot was town(and correctly so), he says that the exact same thing should not apply to me. What? It almost sounds like he's trying to set up a later mislynch.

Interesting. I'm scummy for thinking whoot is a townie because Percy confronted him, and I'm also scummy for not thinking you are a townie based on Percy posting about you. First of all, Percy's attack on whoot was considerably more aggressive (something like "Nice try scum") and his attack on you seemed mostly academic. Secondly, I had made the point about whoot before we had two nights in a row without deaths. You really think

I'm

trying to set up mislynches? How can you accuse me of that after your own contribution to zwet's lynch and railroading whoot.

Am I the only one who noticed, upon reread, that Honcho appears to be tunneling on Starbuck and Slicey? And that he "thought both of the two lynches were townies?"

I think by definition you can't tunnel two people. Are you really going to keep after me for

Anyway boxman, your inability to provide ANYTHING compelling (imo!) tends to tell me that you didn't figure out why you were voting me until after you voted me. That post was one big example of what you have been posting all game, which is fluff. I like how you called me on 'slicey being surprised whoot was a townie' as a weak scumtell, because in retrospect your reaction takes the cake.

Anyway, I can't believe that he was really a miller. Bah. :/

Three lamentations! Three! What a townie!

Here's the big slip though:

Also, at qwints.

How do you KNOW I'm scum?

You didn't say he was lying, you didn't say he was wrong, you didn't question his motives. He said he had role info and your priority was apparently to ensure he was entirely outed if he was a legitimate investigative role.

Outside of those it's hard for me to completely articulate why boxman is scum, but if you read him in iso I think you will see why I get this vibe. A lot of fluff and doubletalk.

unvote vote: boxman

[Head_Honcho]

EBWOP oops, messed this one up:

And in ISO 21, he says that whoot had no connections. He did. You tried to say that he was town immediately before his lynch, only because of a few comments from Percy.

Are you saying I am his connection? If that is the case then I would apparently be damned either way. You're calling me scum now because I thought whoot was a townie, but this implies you would be calling me scum if whoot had been scum as well. Is this to say that whoot was a good lynch because no matter which way he flips you get to lynch me? I am forced to lol one more time about you accusing me of trying to set up mislynches.

[Head_Honcho]

Ehhhh, sorry for being so mean spirited about your uses of ad hom and strawmanning, I have been very sick the last few days and I think it's starting to get to me.

I'm going to have to ask that you follow through on my request though: Quote one post of yours in which you were contributing to the game before the day one hammer.(Again scumhunting, or even offering opinions)

This is important because if you can do this then I was attacking you unfairly, perhaps even strawmanning.

[Starbuck]

I did offer opinions, helped with some flavor explanation and even posted the card that zwet said that he was (Cho-Manno, Revolutionary - White Card, Human Rebel....Prevent all damage that would be dealt to Cho-Manno Revolutionary). I did what I could with the little time I had a work to post. His lynch was very hasty and not well thought out, which is why you don't see me on it.

I also did mention the fact that my ISP did block Mafiascum for a bit at my house, and I could only reply or post from work, but apparently you missed that too? Just fyi, I'm an American in the United States Navy and I currently live in Sicily, and my internet service at home is Italian. Sometimes I can get to the sites I frequent and sometimes I can't. Currently now, I'm able to get to MS at home, but during that time period I was not.

You're all about me going back to re-read my posts, but why don't you go back and read? You'd find that I did say that I was semi-V/LA due to my connection issue for that time. Before you chew someone out, you should (1) not be guilty of the same thing, and (2) do your damn research.

[Head_Honcho]

You can't show me a post because everything you did day one was active lurking. That's not the most damning thing in the world on its own, but the evasive way you've danced around it is extremely scummy. I realize now that you've gone over your posts and seen the same thing I did, so now instead of admitting your mistake and acknowledging my request for an explanation you're altering your story. Why is it relevant that you were semi-V/LA if you were contributing day one like you keep saying you were?

Look, I have read your posts, that's why I'm asking. You're the one that should do your research, since you seem to have a habit of making stuff up. When I pushed you on this the first time, you cried foul because my 'first real post wasn't until yesterday' which was incorrect and I told you so but you weren't interested. Now you're crying foul because I am pushing you on something that I too am apparently guilty of?

In your most recent post you have said that you did contribute day one, implied that you couldn't because you were V/LA, and also implied that it's okay if you didn't contribute because I am guilty of the same thing. (Look I said implied now you don't get to call strawmanning and ignore it!)

And so you can let (1) go I'll go ahead and quote some of my day one posts in which I made an effort to scumhunt:

I'm going to go ahead and completely disregard the other subgames until there is some explicit crossover. I actually think Zakeri's right on the ball that focusing your posting on other games is a

huge

scumtell.

That said, I'm going to

vote: sudai

for his 'every universe compiles a list of their scummiest' idea.

Firstly, as was mentioned assuming a possibility of multiple scum groups it gives scum in this game an opportunity to actually be able to scumhunt. Secondly, townies should be looking at this and playing this as a small group game, I'm not going to say why, but townies should know why. Anything that distracts unduly from the people in this specific game is not a good idea, and I think focusing a bunch of attention and posts on the other games falls under that.

Sudai's idea stunk to me because it seemed like the most blatant attempt so far to try to move away from focusing on this subgame.

I don't think the other games should be ignored entirely, for instance I think once we have night flavor/actions it could be helpful to compare them to the other games to try to get a feel for setup, but as far as picking lynches I think it would do us well to keep the majority of analysis directed at people we can actually affect with votes.

jackassery noted, obviously there's a distinction between a wall of text saying what you do and don't like about every person in the other subgames and looking for flavor crossovers and such.

Zwet: If you are serious about a hammer only policy for the sake of your meta or something, that is going to get very old very quickly and I trust you can be convinced to abandon it.

I don't like qwints' defensiveness towards zwet for being skeptical about expansion claiming.

So, boxman, your vote's been sitting on Zwet since RVS and was never really qualified. Why did you feel it was necessary for him to claim?

One more thing, you brought up several times how Zwet was playing differently than he normally was. I asked why that made him more likely to be a townie, and your response was that you never said it made him more likely to be a townie. That's true, you never explicitly said that.

Everyone please realize that zwet is now at L-1.

As much as I hate his play style normally, he's playing a little different this game than what I am used to.

I've played games with Zwet before. He was acting quite differently than he normally does.


This list

Boxman,Slicey,Percy,Zakeri,Sudai,Qwints,Whoot1234

of people who were on his bandwagon are who we need to look at, especially Whoot with that quick hammer.

I was building a case on Zwet. I noted that he was not playing as he normally does, which is why I was skeptical of his lynch.

Whoot, you thought it was policy to lynch claimed Vanilla Townies. You hammered without letting us get more information from Zwet. A good chunk of us have played with him before and saw that he was playing differently than he normally does.

So why did that point make his wagon scummy? Why was it relevant to use against whoot?

See, this is actually strawmanning. I never went from one extreme to the other. If anything my position on the subject became much more moderate, but I actually see the first part and the third part as the same thing, except in the third one you quoted I explained what I meant by explicit crossover.

Where am I strawmanning? You definitely went from one extreme to the other in the very same post.

Here's the whole paragraph:

Firstly, as was mentioned assuming a possibility of multiple scum groups it gives scum in this game an opportunity to actually be able to scumhunt. Secondly, townies should be looking at this and playing this as a small group game, I'm not going to say why, but townies should know why. Anything that distracts unduly from the people in this specific game is not a good idea, and I think focusing a bunch of attention and posts on the other games falls under that.

And instead of attacking that, you misrepresented it as "not wanting to pay attention to the other games" and attacked that misrepresentation for the sake of your argument. Though the spirit of this post was obviously to state that SSK's subgame should be our top priority, just like every other post I made on the subject.

Speculation is speculation. He went off very far on a tangent that had us arguing more about what could POSSIBLY be in the game than what really is in the game. He was making assumptions and steering us off track.

He was speculating about how the scum factions might relate to magic. You don't get to go back on it now, you attacked him because 'Scum normally speculate to get an idea about the town's power roles', at worst whoot's speculation was ineffective, at best it provided us an alternate explanation of how the scum faction(s) could work.

Let's see, you have been VERY overaggressive since we started, and have been jumping around on different people. It seems like you want a lynch and you don't care who is lynched as long as it isn't you.

That is very hilarious, especially on the coat tails of boxman's accusation that I'm tunneling.

I wish I hadn't just voted boxman, but this has been a very scummy demonstration, and one I can actually articulate!.

unvote vote: Starbuck

[Starbuck]

Well, we have a bigger issue than our 1v1.

According to this, qwints will be rejoining our game.

[Head_Honcho]

I play horseshoe crab and enchant it with hermetic study, your turn

hey everyone could we get some posting going on?

[MafiaSSK]

Qwints rejoins the game!Votecount reset.

[Head_Honcho]

vote: Qwints

so, qwints

Also, I now know boxman is scum. Sorry for the confusion.

I have role info that Boxman is not town aligned.

Never mind. Due to some crossed wires, I don't know that boxman is scum. I only know that either he is non-town aligned or he wasn't targeted for a kill N1.

talk about these posts. I don't know how the rest of us feel but I would really like you to claim, and talk about why you couldn't stay in Tar's game.

[Shotty to the Body]

These are all interesting questions that I would like answered, but until I get some sort of response...

revote: Chenhsi

[Sudai]

Sorry for not having my ISO analysis up yet. I haven't read any post since I posted that yet and I probably won't be until next Monday. Beginning of school is kicking my ass harder than I thought it would.

@Mod: Officially V/LA until Monday.

I'll read everything I missed and then put up my iso read on Boxman/Zakeri then, along with whatever I garner from catching up.

[Starbuck]

How easily you just seem to change your vote all the time, Head_Honcho. Three times this page alone.

[Boxman]

It's probably because I accused him of tunneling last page, Starbuck.

Also,

Vote: Head_Honcho

.

And I'd like answers from qwints as well.

[Head_Honcho]

you guys are adorable.

SSK I really hope you prodded qwints, since he hadn't posted in a long time in tar's game. I also hope there's a really, really good reason he got tossed back into our town because it's pretty unfair to us that he wasn't a factor in day two. Also please prod zakeri and chenhsi

Speaking of unfair, some of us want to play this game. If we don't get some activity I'm done with this. Shotty, you are free to post about other people while you wait for Chenhsi to return. I know it's a strain but I bet if you dig deep you can do it. When the whole town is allowed to lurk it kind of ruins the game.

It's hard to respond to the two of you with a straight face at this point, but as I said when he first left our game I think qwints has some 'splainin' to do.

Sudai, you don't have to hold yourself to doing an iso if that means you're never going to post again, please just read and contribute when you can.

[MafiaSSK]

Yeah, I did. And this explains it. And done

[qwints]

Sorry for the confusion, as the mods have explained my role was treated inconsistently leading to me thinking I had information that I didn't and to my inactivity while they resolved the inconsistency.

Here is what I currently know:
1. Boxman is town.
2. Papa zito is town.

Re-reading this game later tonight.

[chenhsi]

Oh, I'm here. I was waiting for HH and Starbuck to finish their argument, so I can read it all in one sitting.

[Head_Honcho]

If you're soft claiming an investigative role you might as well full claim.

[Boxman]

Curiouser and curiouser.

You just made a prime target out of yourself... I'd like to know what's up with your game-swapping, investigative role, although I think I have a pretty good idea...

[Zakeri]

Sorry everyone. I've been having major computer problems recently, and it's getting harder and harder for me to get online. I'll be V/LA until I get it fixed, but I'll do a reread as soon as I can.

just reviewing these recent posts, I'm leaning either towards Starbuck or Qwints. I've been wanting to lynch qwints for a while, but Starbuck rates much higher for her recent scumtell of dancing around Head Honcho's arguments. I'd rather not bandwagon, though, so I won't vote until I can manage a reread of some sort.

[Starbuck]

Oh, I'm here. I was waiting for HH and Starbuck to finish their argument, so I can read it all in one sitting.

So you are admitting to actively lurking?

[Starbuck]

Sorry everyone. I've been having major computer problems recently, and it's getting harder and harder for me to get online. I'll be V/LA until I get it fixed, but I'll do a reread as soon as I can.

just reviewing these recent posts, I'm leaning either towards Starbuck or Qwints. I've been wanting to lynch qwints for a while, but Starbuck rates much higher for her recent scumtell of dancing around Head Honcho's arguments. I'd rather not bandwagon, though, so I won't vote until I can manage a reread of some sort.

That's quite a strong accusation, I will wait for your re-read. I would definitely like to see where I was dancing. I answered everything that he asked.

[Shotty to the Body]

Oh, I'm here. I was waiting for HH and Starbuck to finish their argument, so I can read it all in one sitting.

Fantastic, while you're doing that read post 420 and get back to me kthx.