Mini 839 -- Mafia Invasion! (Game Over)

[popsofctown]

I didn't notice i was at L-1, as has been said, it was slipped into a post.

I actually thought my claim was at L-2 or so, i just saw the swirl of public opinion coming. I've seen this train a thousand times before, i know where the tracks lead. There are better indicators for the inevitability of a lynch than the vote-count.

I thought it'd feel better to have the town know i was the doctor as they lynched me, instead of telling them after. It does feel better.

In the interest of doing "real scumhunting", i reread jammer. You don't always get what you're looking for... it actually looks like he's protown. The weird timing on voting me is probably just an oddity. And he was following a rule with all his chaotic votes, voting people who have not spoken yet, i have nothing against me.

Vi is incredibly protown this game, yes, but i have no clue what a scumVi would look like. Vi is always town in my games. Usually VT. But never VI!!!

[popsofctown]

@J.D:

I reread you, you're a waffle. First the survey is scummy, then it's not, and first you have a scum read on Y.C... but then not really. Where do you stand? It really looks like scum that wants to pretend to have scum reads on either, but then doesn't want to commit and be on an dark wagon.


Is Vi scum?
Am I scum?
Why are either of us scum?
Why did you both refuse to answer the survey and neglect to make any alternative discussion? Does this game play itself? Do you think a town with nine of me would get anything done?

[popsofctown]

Will RC modkill me if I triple post?

[Col.Cathart]

Now,

[TMJ's]

posts are somewhat better,

?

Allow me to clarify - His later posts are better than earlier, because he's actually trying to say something in them (at least I think so... But maybe I'm giving him too much benefit of doubt). They are still pretty bad, but at least better from things he wrote earlier. If the quality will get higher, then maybe he'll be even useful at some point. But since it didn't happen yet, my vote stays for now.

YC/pops was a much more convincing case. I figured it would be beneficial to wait to make a case on jammer until there was more to go on, especially with a much better lynch candidate out there.

But why? There's more than one scum in this game, we have to look at others. If it won't be taken into a spotlight, there's a dreadful possibility, that we'll just forget about it, when the thread will have ~30 pages. Not to mention, I just got hit with 'nobody pointed it out earlier, so why do you see a problem now?' argument in other game, so I'm extra biased in this point right now.

It wasn't impossible at the time of my unvote. I ws the first one to unvote and pops was still acting suspicious. I'm just extremely hesitant to lynch any claimed PR day 1, especially doctor.

I think, the scum would be far too careful to actually attack someone when he just claimed PR. Jammer wasn't at the time in Newbie 803, and that was pretty much the point, when he lost a perfect game. Giving up, and going in other (single) direction seems more like a scum behavior, mostly because it's much safer.

[popsofctown]

col. 203 is too good, have been thinking the same thing.

The players who don't have the balls to lynch me after i claimed PR are likely scums.

[DeathRowKitty]

I think, the scum would be far too careful to actually attack someone when he just claimed PR.

This is where not having completed any games as town comes back to haunt me. I'm just against lynching claimed PRs day 1 without strong reason to believe they're lying, regardless of my alignment.

But why? There's more than one scum in this game, we have to look at others. If it won't be taken into a spotlight, there's a dreadful possibility, that we'll just forget about it, when the thread will have ~30 pages.

We're not getting to page 30 anytime soon and I wasn't going to just forget about jammer, especially since I've been watching his posts more closely. I'm not sure there's enough on jammer for a good case. I wanted to wait until he'd made more posts and since there was a perfectly viable lynch candidate already, I decided to wait.

[jammer]

jammer, why vote the fat chick?

Well you and Porkens already voted him for a reason. I was basically sheeping your votes. The pressure vote was better then voting noone at all.

Despite all that i just said, i would much rather see a lynch on either Cruciare or imaginality today. A lot of what they have been saying hasn't been siting right with me, however I am not exactly sure how to put a case together on them. This is generally my problem, i am not an english or logic major, so i generally get bandwagoned for miscommunication due to the fact that i can rarely get my point across the way i intend for it to sound.

What is so hard about quoting anything that did not seem right with you. You can put a

case

on me, but can find nothing at all on them?

I think, the scum would be far too careful to actually attack someone when he just claimed PR. Jammer wasn't at the time in Newbie 803, and that was pretty much the point, when he lost a perfect game. Giving up, and going in other (single) direction seems more like a scum behavior, mostly because it's much safer.

You just contradicted yourself there, you´ve seen before scum would attack a claimed PR.

Also, I´d like J.D to anwser some of pops questions.
And a few new questions.
JD, why is the survey a scumtell?
Who is scum?

Prodd: J.D.

Done

Unvote: afatchic
Vote: J.D.

col. 203 is too good, have been thinking the same thing.

The players who don't have the balls to lynch me after i claimed PR are likely scums.

You are streching this idea far. I do not think unvoting you makes anyone more likely scum.

@imaginality, if pops claimed vanilla towny, would you like him lynched in that case?

@DeathRowKitty, you did not want to put a case on me becouse there was already another lynch target? Why not going after somoene you suspect at the moment you see it? If my behaviour changes after you pointed out my scummy behaviour, would that not be another tell for scum trying to get back on

being

towny track?

Offtopic,

4)Vi, Porkens. Imaginality, Jammer and RedCoyote on EpicMafia

Who are you on epicmafia?

Also I get, Fatal error: Out of memory errors, anyone else with this issue?

[DeathRowKitty]

@DeathRowKitty, you did not want to put a case on me becouse there was already another lynch target? Why not going after somoene you suspect at the moment you see it? If my behaviour changes after you pointed out my scummy behaviour, would that not be another tell for scum trying to get back on being towny track?

I didn't want to put a case on you because I didn't have enough for a strong case. I've said that twice already. The fact that there was another lynch target meant I could afford to wait.

[DeathRowKitty]

Also I get, Fatal error: Out of memory errors, anyone else with this issue?

I've been getting them on and off all day.

[Col.Cathart]

You just contradicted yourself there, you´ve seen before scum would attack a claimed PR.

I used this example to show, what will happen if scum will do otherwise --> very dangerous when done improperly, which lead to the point, that not attacking claimed PR is much safer, because you have an easy 'I don't want to lynch a PR' rewind button.

And yeah, I had this error to. Probably site is crashing again.

[imaginality]

@imaginality, if pops claimed vanilla towny, would you like him lynched in that case?

Yes.

I didn't notice i was at L-1, as has been said, it was slipped into a post.

I actually thought my claim was at L-2 or so, i just saw the swirl of public opinion coming. I've seen this train a thousand times before, i know where the tracks lead. There are better indicators for the inevitability of a lynch than the vote-count.

From post 151 it's pretty clear you knew you were at L-1.

I latch on to other suspicious people whenever I'm at L-1, not only when i'm at scum L-1.

And supposing you didn't, I find it hard to believe that an actual town-aligned doctor would claim if they didn't think they were at L-1 yet, and especially if they knew they'd been at L-1 before and thought they now weren't at L-1 anymore.

Sidenote:

In the interest of doing "real scumhunting", i reread jammer. [...] as he was following a rule with all his chaotic votes, voting people who have not spoken yet, i have nothing against

me

.

Another interesting slip of the tongue.

Okay, so after due consideration, I think pops is more likely scum lying about being doc and splashing his posts with a liberal dose of appeals to emotion, rather than a depressive townie with a sense of hopelessness. Had he not claimed doc I would be more than happy to see him lynched now.

However, as per my comment in 177, I'm not sure we should lynch him

today

. Depending on night actions, there are several possibilities that could result in us having more clarity about pops tomorrow. Or scum might kill pops in the night saving us having to decide either way.

---

Vi, more on your case against me later. Just this for now:

Last, this flowery language screams fake.

I thought it was a natural and pro-town thing

to consider (and, not knowing the answer, to check) whether alignment and role went hand in hand or not in normal games.

Perhaps a touch of my caution arises

from...

First bolded segment - Very few non-n00b Townies have considered whether Doctor is necessarily Town in my experience, partly because Doctor has a nasty tendency to be completely unprovable and partly because scum claiming their actual non-vanilla roles are pretty rare. But beside that, this looks like a front for you thinking "oops, I didn't think that would be so scummy".

Second bolded segment - "Perhaps a touch"? You can't come out and say that your opinion is definitely influenced by a game you lost to a significant enough degree that you brought the subject up in the first place? This looks like an attempt to sound intellectual that's falling flat.

First segment: My surprise at it

being seen as

scummy is because I don't think it

is

scummy to ask clarification about whether role implies alignment. Please explain the scum motive for doing so.

Second segment: Again not sure why I would underplay that as scum. My 'perhaps a touch' was because it was a theme game, so I wasn't sure how much of that caution was appropriate to carry over into a normal game.

Hence my asking about it.

[James.Denholm]

Sorry guys, I kind of zoned out for a couple of days. Re-read coming up soon, probably. The questions.

@J.D:

I reread you, you're a waffle. First the survey is scummy, then it's not, and first you have a scum read on Y.C... but then not really. Where do you stand? It really looks like scum that wants to pretend to have scum reads on either, but then doesn't want to commit and be on an dark wagon.


Is Vi scum?
Am I scum?
Why are either of us scum?
Why did you both refuse to answer the survey and neglect to make any alternative discussion? Does this game play itself? Do you think a town with nine of me would get anything done?

Damn right, I'm waffle. Regarding the survey, yourself, and Vi: At first, as you said, I found it scummy. Fair enough, I think, and besides, that's what the cool kids were doing. The thing is, after thinking about it for a while, it occurred to me that Vi probably isn't scum, but more likely a misunderstood townie. The same thing goes for Y.C - And I've seen that before, how two townies can go at each other and completely miss the scum. So no, at the moment, I don't think that either you or Vi is scum.

As for the rest: To re-literate, I initially refused to answer it because I thought that it was a scum-tell. However, by the time that alternative discussion had started, there was that whole shitestorm between Vi and Y.C going on. I tend to keep my head down during those sorts of things. I don't think the game plays itself. And I'm not sure if nine of you would get anything done - but I suspect not, because you'd all be defeatist all the time.

It's jammer time.

Also, I´d like J.D to anwser some of pops questions.
And a few new questions.
JD, why is the survey a scumtell?
Who is scum?

Prodd: J.D.
Unvote: afatchic
Vote: J.D.

Well, I assume you mean why did I initially think that the survey was a scumtell. I'll speak as of my mindset while I thought it was, and ignore any thoughts that I've thought beyond that point.

To me, it seemed that Vi was fishing for info. A lot of info. And, I suppose, she was - Remember the whole "baseline meta read" thing? That made me think that there was a fair chance that she might have been rolefishing at the same time, and only scum would bother rolefishing at such an early point.

As for who I think are scum - I, honestly, have no idea at the moment. I do apologise for that, but I will do a re-read when I can, and actually pay attention this time.

And no "Also I get, Fatal error: Out of memory" error here, sorry.

[Tjoe Min Ja]

col. 203 is too good, have been thinking the same thing.

The players who don't have the balls to lynch me after i claimed PR are likely scums.

You are streching this idea far. I do not think unvoting you makes anyone more likely scum.

claiming role considered to be last resort. why?
because there are no way anyone can prove pops to be doctor
what pops did just merely "buy" more time till he get his replacement or he did trying
some scum may unvote but some town also may doing the same thing
there are no guarantee that people that unvote or vote after someone claimed is town/scum
if by lynching pops may bring me closer to day 2 and get more information..that's the price that I have to take

as a note :

As pops pointed out, please do not discuss ongoing games outside of their respective threads. I will also state that claiming a role is not against the rules and would advise you to look over the second post in the thread for any specific rules for this game specifically.

(I don't buy claimed role - I thought some mod also doing modkill if player doing roleclaim?)

(btw what is PR?)

[Tjoe Min Ja]

correction
"what pops did just merely "buy" more time till he get his replacement or he die trying "

[James.Denholm]

PR is power-role. Doc, Cop, Roleblocker... Guys that go "Bump!" in the night. And by "Bump!", I mean,

rape

murder.

[James.Denholm]

Or anything else.

[Tjoe Min Ja]

oh....I thought the next poster gonna hit me hard...

[sigma]

Do you think TMJ will remain unreadable if a wagon builds on him?

Probably. Finding out what alignment pops is would be much more helpful in finding out what alignment tjoe is.

I need to re-read the past few RL days, and then I'll have a real post for you guys. Expect at least one today.

[Cruciare]

I have exam overload the next few days, so I may not be posting much.

[sigma]

So, uh, we have a deadline in less than 96 hours.

The only thing that really jumps out at me on reread is pops' claim and the circumstances surrounding it. I'm really happy that pops is still alive -- it's given us a lot to go on.

That said, pops is looking more and more scummy to me as the day goes on. imaginality's post #210 is a good one -- there are some major contradictions between pops in #200 and #151. Pops' first post or two had more of a unhappy towny feel, but as he's continued to post the read looks less townie and more appealing-to-emotion scum.

Jammer looks more town to me on re-read. His L-1 vote still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but he's done an excellent job of fighting lurking behavior.

So, I think I'll

Unvote

Vote: popsofctown

Now, the question -- should we lynch a claimed doctor on D1? Doctors aren't very powerful on their own, but are very powerful when combined with a confirmed power role such as a cop, to the extent that this is usually a large consideration in putting a setup together. The problem with closed setups like this, though, is that we're very unlikely to get confirmed power roles of any kind (at least, that's my impression.) Doctors also become a lot less powerful when they're driven into the open, like pops has been. So, lynching a doctor D1 won't hurt us much more than lynching a VT at this point in the game. Obviously, I think pops is significantly more likely to be scum than a doctor, but it's important to think about the consequences of lynching a doctor and be sure that you're OK with the possibility that you're wrong about your lynch-ee being scum.

Summary: currently pops looks scummiest to me, and I'm not convinced that a doc claim should automatically save him for a day. I'm open to convincing on that, though -- most of you are more experienced then I am.

[DeathRowKitty]

@sigma
I don't endorse lynching a claimed doctor Day 1. Even if he looks scummy, it's very much to the advantage of scum to NK him. If he's town, we're doing their job for them. In the absence of other exposed PRs, if pops is actually doctor, I would expect him to be dead Night 1. If we don't lynch him, the longer he stays alive, the more suspicious he is. Eventually, if he's not NKed, he would most likely be scum and we would lynch him. That's why I was willing to wait. However, I do think he's scummy enough that if deadline comes around, I would hammer. I would still prefer if we find someone else though.

[popsofctown]

Like TMJ, the obv scum?

I'd keep going on his case, but he doesn't post much content. Something about unvoting doesn't mean a player is scum. Ok, sure, you don't agree that's the common reaction to the roleclaim. Anything else about the game?

Btw, TMJ, there's a rule about talking about games outside of the thread, you don't do it. Unless it's a special game that allows it.

[sigma]

@sigma
I don't endorse lynching a claimed doctor Day 1. Even if he looks scummy, it's very much to the advantage of scum to NK him. If he's town, we're doing their job for them. In the absence of other exposed PRs, if pops is actually doctor, I would expect him to be dead Night 1. If we don't lynch him, the longer he stays alive, the more suspicious he is. Eventually, if he's not NKed, he would most likely be scum and we would lynch him. That's why I was willing to wait. However, I do think he's scummy enough that if deadline comes around, I would hammer. I would still prefer if we find someone else though.

[WIFOM]Won't the scum keep pops alive then, since they know he'll be lynched if he stays alive?[/WIFOM]

That's point's a bit tongue-in-cheek, but there is an element of seriousness to it. The mafia are going to NK in a way that gives them an advantage, and I'm not sure that NK'ing a very suspicious doctor-claim gives them an advantage. Anyway, that's enough WIFOM for now.

More importantly -- who else are we going to lynch at this point? TMJ is the only other player with anything approaching a consensus. Would you advocate lynching TMJ over pops? Do you think we can put together a lynch on another player at this point?

[DeathRowKitty]

[WIFOM]Won't the scum keep pops alive then, since they know he'll be lynched if he stays alive?[/WIFOM]

Yes, which is why I wouldn't have made my previous post if I didn't think there was a good chance of pops getting lynched. If the scum aren't sure we're going to lynch pops at some point or another, it would be to their advantage to kill him to give them a clear shot later on, especially if there are no other exposed PRs to shoot at (which there aren't). Once people start saying we have to lynch pops anyway (like I did in my last post), scum can potentially afford to wait with the idea of getting him lynched Day 2 or Day 3, especially if they have a roleblocker.

Of course, we could also benefit from that WIFOM. Suspicious or not, if pops really is a (town) doctor, he has a powerful pro-town role and keeping him alive could prove dangerous later on for the scum. Overall, if I were scum and pops is really pro-town, I would choose to NK him, so I don't think I really gave much away in my previous post.

I agree pops is our best lynch at the moment, but if someone else pops up as a strong lynch, I would prefer to put off pops until a later day. If everything stays the way it is now, I'll be voting pops at deadline.

[Vi]

I wonder why nobody bothered to listen to me about imaginality?
Don't complain about not having a consensus if you're not going to look very hard for the Scum In Front Of Me (SIFOM).

pops is not a poor lynch and at deadline (more or less now) I would endorse his demise.
TMJ is not a terrible lynch either.
Porkens and imaginality are worth investigation.

-----

Probably. Finding out what alignment pops is would be much more helpful in finding out what alignment tjoe is.

I disagree.

First segment: My surprise at it being seen as scummy is because I don't think it is scummy to ask clarification about whether role implies alignment. Please explain the scum motive for doing so.

Second segment: Again not sure why I would underplay that as scum. My 'perhaps a touch' was because it was a theme game, so I wasn't sure how much of that caution was appropriate to carry over into a normal game. Hence my asking about it.

1) Looking Town. 'Same reason as asking "Are we in LyLo?" when you already know the answer to that question.
2) It sounds like you're trying to manipulate your own thoughts with the fancy wording.

I know you're not a newb, so I would have expected you to know what the difference between a Normal and Theme game would be, but that's not worth arguing over tbh.

-----

Unvote: imaginality
Vote: popsofctown

(L-3)

pops has been tsundere for my vote for a while now; why disappoint?~