California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[KY Krew]

And I forgot the Condorcet.

-inHim

unvote
vote: Mighty Orbots

, zwetschenwasser, [elmosaurian, GoofballsandBaloons, Rawr Hydra, Seraphim], [Bagel Eating Cowfrog, Gaspar, ShadowLurker, Thok], No Lynch, KY Krew

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Posting this in both my games

I had prepared to take a lot of time now (an hour before now and then hours after) working on the game.

There is a very serious fire 15-20 minutes away from me near where I go to school and many of my friends are near and are evacuating.
Busy tryin to contact them.


-Bridges

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

And that's pretty much it from Orbots - information, no analysis..."

Thank you for that wikitell, throwing IIoA at us for no valid reason at all. I object to "pretty much it" since Mighty Orbots has, so far, 40

productive

posts, compared to your 6 bizarre ones.

We as KY Krew feel we could cut away some of the "meta-chaff" - zwet and MafiaJin are two that we had in mind - we know we haven't participated as much as some so far, but do feel we are very capable of closing out a game, and moreso than either of those players (again, aware that this shouldn't necessarily excuse us from our actions, but it's a very pertinent point to consider for this game in particular). It's the town's pleasure if we stuntman into the scene or not, and we were thinking of replacing MafiaJin if we did use our action.

Is this fancy talk to suggest that we should policy lynch zwet and MafiaJin in case the scum chooses them for endgame, while pleading that we should keep YOU, because you'd be great at endgame?

Gwd help us all. Vote stays.

I will switch to zwet if he fails to provide Condocet + detailed explanations in his next post.

@ zwet - I'd rather keep my vote on KY Krew. Do oblige me.

-DGB

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

6 to lynch.

KY Krew: 4 (elmosaurian, Gaspar, GoofballsAndBaloons, ShadowLurker)
zwetschenwasser: 2 (Bagel Eating Cowfrog, Mighty Orbots)
GoofballsAndBaloons: 1 (Thok)
Mighty Orbots: 1 (KY Krew)

Not Voting: 3 (Rawr Hydra, Seraphim, zwetschenwasser)

Current Condorcet Winner:

KY Krew

To view the complete table of pairwise results, put the following information into this form.

1,Bagel Eating Cowfrog
2,elmosaurian
3,Gaspar
4,GoofballsAndBaloons
5,KY Krew
6,Mighty Orbots
7,Rawr Hydra
8,Seraphim
9,ShadowLurker
10,Thok
11,zwetschenwasser
12,No Lynch

1:11>5>7>2=3=4=8=10>6>9>12>1
1:5>3>11>1>4=7=8=9=10>6>12>2
1:5>1=2=4=6=7=8=9=10=11>12>3
1:5=11>9>1=2=7=8=10>3=6>4>12
1:6>11>2=4=7=8>1=3=9=10>12>5
1:11>5>7=8>4=9>1=2=3=10>12>6
1:1=2=3=4=5=6=8=9=10=11=12>7
1:1=2=3=4=5=6=7=9=10=11=12>8
1:5>2=7=8>3=11>1>10>12>4>6>9
1:4>5=7>8>1=6>9>12>11>2=3>10
1:1=2=3=4=5=6=7=8=9=10=12>11

[Mr. Grey]

Mod Note:

Seraphim has not posted for 72 hours, and has received his first strike.

[elmosaurian]

I find Yos's use of meta more amusing than anything else, considering I haven't looked at a mafia game in, what... over five months?

Yeah, well, that last game we played together I had a gut feeling you were scum there as well, and didn't follow up on it as much as I should have. We all know how that turned out, heh. My suspicions on you aren't really meta based; it's more about how your

Anyway, as I said in my post, I'm really made uncomfortable by how much you're focusing so much on MafiaJin, just because he put himself in the scene, especally considering that he did that so early before we had really worked out exactally what all of that meant in thread. Using that as a reason for suspicion isn't irrational, but it seem really, really weak to me, and far less relevent then stuff that has happened since day 1 started to me.

On a side note, I am pleased to see that Elmo was wrong about you; he was sure you were going to OMGUS us right away for that, hehe.

-Yos

[elmosaurian]

EBWOP: Also, I completely disagree with your listing of Shanba/Dahill/Hascow. I find them distinctly protown, based on what I've seen from dahill and what I know I saw in him when I played scum with him in the past.

I mentioned this earlier; dahill's early overreaction to DGB's suspicions of zwet seemed strange to me. The way he moved his vote to Zwet later after defending him against DBG's origional attacks seems odd, as well, and I'm not completly clear why he did it. None of that is a huge deal, but it's enough to put them just above "background scumminess levels" in my mind, so I put them just above the "everyone else" group.

[Mighty Orbots]

KY Krew, those early game comments from Mighty Orbots are really the scummiest things that you've seen this game? And does GoofballsAndBaloons have the right read on your zwetschenwasser/MafiaJin stance? That's how I'm reading it as well and it's a pretty unimpressive reason to keep you around.

Gaspar, you're the one who's sure about hewitt; is that still true after what he's done in the on camera thread? I've been complaining about him for a while and recently I don't like his vote coming when it did and I hate this:

I mean honestly one of the advocates has to have the best interests of the innocents in mind and if they're both picking Valentine then obviously one of them is planning on screwing us over but the other hopefully knows what they're doing.

That's just not true from any understanding of the rules that would make sense. His next post (that he's just giving his lines) might indicate that he understands that but he's confusing things in there when they don't need to be confused in that way.

zwetschenwasser, add me to the list of those who want to see your Condorcet list.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[elmosaurian]

Also, I really don't understand why KY krew is getting at in their last post; if you could explain what you mean a little more clearly, explain why you think Mighty Orbots is scum and perhaps talk about his play in general this game and what you think about it, it might help me get a better read on you guys.

-Yos

[Gaspar]

Gaspar, you're the one who's sure about hewitt; is that still true after what he's done in the on camera thread?

Actually, no. I haven't mentioned Hewitt yet. I have no opinion of him one way or another at this point. Wrong name, bucko.


I do have a question for you, though. Could you please elaborate on the quote below (particularly the part which I have italicized)?

Papa Zito hasn't posted here today so I'm going to break one of my hydra rules and actually do my own voting.

I don't have any reason to think that zwetschenwasser is town,

if he's scum he's in a spot that can actually do us harm with the flow of information.

[Gaspar]

Balls. I meant to reply to Elmos and Orbots in one post, but I had different tabs open and accidentally hit
Submit." Oh well.

I find Yos's use of meta more amusing than anything else, considering I haven't looked at a mafia game in, what... over five months?

Yeah, well, that last game we played together I had a gut feeling you were scum there as well, and didn't follow up on it as much as I should have. We all know how that turned out, heh. My suspicions on you aren't really meta based; it's more about how your

Finish your sentence, much?

Anyway, as I said in my post, I'm really made uncomfortable by how much you're focusing so much on MafiaJin, just because he put himself in the scene, especally considering that he did that so early before we had really worked out exactally what all of that meant in thread. Using that as a reason for suspicion isn't irrational, but it seem really, really weak to me, and far less relevent then stuff that has happened since day 1 started to me.

Funny you should say that, considering I haven't mentioned MafiaJin in over two pages. Since then, I've weighed in on KY Krew, Zwet, Talilan, CowBagelFrogThing, and the On-Camera Decision situation in general.

But hey. If you want to ignore others' lack of contribution in favor of accusing me of focusing too much on MafiaJin, that's cool.

On a side note, I am pleased to see that Elmo was wrong about you; he was sure you were going to OMGUS us right away for that, hehe.

-Yos

Pfft. Predictability gets you killed.

[Mighty Orbots]

Actually, no. I haven't mentioned Hewitt yet. I have no opinion of him one way or another at this point. Wrong name, bucko.

In other news, I am confirmed innocent, and I'm 99% sure that Count de Morcerf is innocent.

hewitt is the Count de Morcerf.

I do have a question for you, though. Could you please elaborate on the quote below (particularly the part which I have italicized)?

Papa Zito hasn't posted here today so I'm going to break one of my hydra rules and actually do my own voting.

I don't have any reason to think that zwetschenwasser is town

, if he's scum he's in a spot that can actually do us harm with the flow of information.

It's pretty much like it reads. zwetschenwasser could be scum or he could be town playing poorly. With most of the other players I've got some reasons to think that they have been helping the town. With zwetschenwasser I don't have that. It's a weaker statement than that I think he's scummy as I could see him making this sort of play as town given what I know of him, but he along with KY Krew is my best guess for scum in the game right now and I'm more worried about his potential to do damage to us as scum than I am KY Krew in the long run.

My first day reads tend to be pretty crappy (just take a look at my first day votes and suspicions in Lynch All Lurkers or Tofu Mafia.) That's why Papa Zito is supposed to be in charge of votes for our hydra. I'll vote for who I think is the best person to lynch but I'm not going to overplay the case I have on them.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[KY Krew]

inHim was following up on the comments made to G&B about pressuring zwet, as he said he would in a previous post.

"That's the scummiest thing inHim can come up with"? It's Day 1, and I'm hunting for things that stick out to me.

@ elmosaurian: If you notice, I think I too have picked out posts that Papa Zito has made, and not Troll. Zorblag has been pretty A-OK in helping us get mechanics straightened out, which is a big credit to the hydra. I don't see why a hydra'd player could be so different in message than if some Level 5 manipulation might be going on here.

Eek, clock's up. I'll be back in the afternoon to try and respond to the rest of it.

[Gaspar]

Oh. Bahahahaahahahah. The fact that I didn't know that should tell you something about my statement.

Like I said, you clearly don't know me well enough, and you it doesn't look like you read CT1 or CT2.

I'm going to let you stew on this a while longer, because it amuses me, and because you basically can't do anything about it. Yes, I'm a buttass.

[Mighty Orbots]

Interesting. I had thought there was probably some underlying reason for the difference bewteen how you're reacting to Talilan and hewitt's behavior in the on camera thread. As apparently that's not the case what is it about Talilan that makes you lump her into the lynchable section that hewitt isn't also doing? Or is it just what she said before the scene started?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Gaspar]

It's pretty much the fact that Talilan was very active... was posting during the Audiography discussion, seemed to be interested in exploring game mechanics. I feel like Talilan had a much firmer grasp of what was going on, and really ought to know that there is one Good and one Bad decision, yet still wanted to draw out this whole Locke thing.

I also didn't like Talilan's suggestion of "well we could have Locke drive, then just kill Locke." While the argument of "we will lynch known scum" is technically true, it is far better to keep a town than to turn him into a scumbag and kill him. In that discussion (especially this post), Talilan posits that both Valentine and Locke have been given equal choices... which is stupid, because we are explicitly told that one choice is Good, while the other choices is Bad. The outcomes of the decision must necessarily be different, yet Talilan posits them as being the same.

It just doesn't add up at all. I feel like there is significant, genuine substance with a player who I am almost certain isn't ignorant enough about the game and its mechanics to make these kinds of mistakes. With Hewitt, I'm not sure. Do I think it's worth exploring his behavior down the road? Absolutely. Would I be willing to pull Hewitt into this thread more than Talilan? Definitely not.

[Mighty Orbots]

OK, I can accept that to some degree. Personally I think that hewitt has been doing more to kick sand in what should be a delightful picnic of an easy decision than Talilan has but if you're working with the idea that Talilan has an idea of what's going on with the game and hewitt doesn't that does make a difference.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Gaspar]

I just looked at Hewitt's posts in isolation, and I see what you're saying. Hewitt talks about the "lesser of two evils." But the possible outcomes aren't "Bad" and "More Bad," so Hewitt's discussion serves only to distract the town from picking Valentine.

[Thok]

DGB (this question is directed at her part of the hydra):

1. Roughly how many scum do you think are on the current KY Krew wagon?
2. Roughly how many scum do you think are Off Camera, but aren't part of the KY Krew wagon?
3. Roughly how many scum do you think are On Camera (feel free to break the On Camera into proLocke and proValentine groups and guess the number of scum in those groups)?

Hmm.

Sorry for being so useless in this game so far, but my presence has been needed elsewhere. I thought I would have more time for this game but obviously I don't have enough. In the meantime I'm going to reread back through both threads and see if I find anything interesting.

Unvote

How's the reread coming along?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

DGB (this question is directed at her part of the hydra):

1. Roughly how many scum do you think are on the current KY Krew wagon?
2. Roughly how many scum do you think are Off Camera, but aren't part of the KY Krew wagon?
3. Roughly how many scum do you think are On Camera (feel free to break the On Camera into proLocke and proValentine groups and guess the number of scum in those groups)?

Let me volunteer something. The way zwet (KY Krew's competing wagon) has been playing, if he were scum, he'd have been bus'ed so hard all our necks would be in a tight twist from the head spinning. That has got me thinking that despite his not paying attention, his slow reaction time with his job, and his appalling hammer-only policy he may, much to my chagrin, be town.

I like your questions because it forces me to think in terms of numbers, something I don't usually do until later in games.

1. We're 20 players. I expect 3-5 scum. Let's say 4. So about 2 scum off camera. I would say 1 scum on the wagon, at the most, if there is one. Despite KY Krew having 4 votes, the case itself isn't getting a huge amount of traction, and zwet is a mega-distraction. The scum won't bus KY Krew when zwet is working so diligently to get himself lynched.

2. One or two. I'm leaning two. I can see BEC as an opportunistic scum voter on the zwet wagon. And of course, KY Krew who voted SL (who is quite townish) and now MO (who is quite helpfully townish).

3. Let's say 2. That's a tough one. I think a player would need to be more than a little bold to suggest anything other than letting Valentine Wiggin drive. By the same token, I believe that a townie might want to be cautious in a "I can't be so simple" kind of way. So among the players wanting to follow Locke, there will be two types. One type that fears following the obvious conclusion by imagining levels of complication that may not exist, and bold scum. hewitt appears to be quite safely town here, he's the first (except Wiggin and Locke themselves) to set the tone with a vote for Wiggin (which he forgot to bold but hey). As for the others, I'd like to see how they vote. If a Locke voter is known for gambitting, could be scum. If a Locke vote is known for wordy complexity, I would lean town.

I'm leary of Seraphim and Rawr Hydra for lack of activity, and lack of voting.

-DGB

[elmosaurian]

Anyway, as I said in my post, I'm really made uncomfortable by how much you're focusing so much on MafiaJin, just because he put himself in the scene, especally considering that he did that so early before we had really worked out exactally what all of that meant in thread. Using that as a reason for suspicion isn't irrational, but it seem really, really weak to me, and far less relevent then stuff that has happened since day 1 started to me.

Funny you should say that, considering I haven't mentioned MafiaJin in over two pages.

Um

I'm not nearly as sure about Krew, Jin, or Talilan as I am about MafiaJin being scum, but I'd be willing to throw down a Day One lynch on any of the four, really.

This was only two posts before my vote, glork. What do you mean you "hadn't mentioned mafiajin in 2 pages?"

Even when you talked about your suspicions on other people, you still seemed to be focusing on mafiajin in a way that seemed strange to me; the way you worded that post, I wonder if you were setting up for something like this tommorow: "Well, I was wrong about X being scum, but that's ok because I was more sure about mafiajin the whole time, vote:mafiajin".

But hey. If you want to ignore others' lack of contribution in favor of accusing me of focusing too much on MafiaJin, that's cool.

Actually, my vote for inhim was partly based on lack of contribution. I'll always go after lurkers, but I'm also going to go after people who I find scummy for other reasons.

-Yos

[elmosaurian]

I also didn't like Talilan's suggestion of "well we could have Locke drive, then just kill Locke." While the argument of "we will lynch known scum" is technically true, it is far better to keep a town than to turn him into a scumbag and kill him. In that discussion (especially this post), Talilan posits that both Valentine and Locke have been given equal choices... which is stupid, because we are explicitly told that one choice is Good, while the other choices is Bad. The outcomes of the decision must necessarily be different, yet Talilan posits them as being the same.

This, though, I agree with. Plus, Talilan also seems to be ignoring the fact that making the wrong choice on thread now will not only turn someone scum, it also would do something that will hurt town in endgame. At least, that's my reading of the rules; I really don't think the alignment of one player is the only thing riding on this decision.

-Yos

[ShadowLurker]

I originally thought that On-Camera scum would be more inclined to hang back as to not draw attention to themselves so this apparent deficiency is logic is quite frightening. Having nothing to go on for Talian and hewitt, I am not sure if they would play this way as town. As others have said however, Talitha is one of the oldest members on this site and really should know better. Even if she is not the one making the posts, she should be advising her hydra.

I had the same negative vibes (intangible) that elmosaurian was receiving from Gaspar and his initial defense only furthered them. However, this recent page has alleviated them. I plan to read at least one of CT1 and CT2 though, to learn a bit more about the setup and get some metas. Here are links if anyone else is interested: CT2, Another CT2 thread, Yet Another, CT1

elmosaurian is looking p protown.

I am worried about the KY Krew wagon growing a bit too fast (especially compared to the zwet wagon which never even really got off the ground) suggesting that some scumbags may be voting KY Krew and then listing zwet as a close 2nd or 3rd (like I am doing coincidentally) to both distance from zwet at the same time as getting a mislynch. However, KY Krew's responses have been extremely unsatisfactory/illogical.

Vote KY Krew

, zwetschenwasser, [Seraphim, Rawr Hydra], Gaspar, Bagel Eating Cowfrog, Thok, No Lynch, Mighty Orbots, elmosaurian, GoofballsAndBaloons

[Mr. Grey]

Mod Note:

Seraphim has not posted for an additional 24 hours, and has received his second strike.

[Rawr Hydra]

(Kore)

I don't think we have to worry too much about clarifying things on camera; Valentine driving looked like a foregone conclusion from about page 2. Everyone's arguments seem like piling cardboard on to delay until we're ready for them to go, honestly.

What I'd like to know, though, is what everyone's voting would be if we included the on-camera players in them. If we have more of a consensus for an on-camera player, we should switch them out and go after them, shouldn't we do that? I've seen people express suspiscion for people on-camera, and people suggest switching, but unless we lay down something a little more concrete, it's just weeds in the river.

More relevantly, I'm not especially comfortable with zwet's posting patterns. No doubt it's been said, but he's not very prolific in this game, and his posts are longer, more careful, and more reactive. He's only got 7% of the posts, and while that's not significant underposting, since he makes up 8% of the posters, doesn't he normally overrepresent by large degrees? He also seems a lot more concerned than he normally does; I remember him largly ignoring the focus he received in other games.

I still don't see that there's much to say about KY Krew. What's there to be said has already been said. The only point of interest is the varying degrees of enthusiasm to which the wagoners follow this wagon. I feel like the more protown players (Gaspar, elmosaur, Orbots) are not as focused on it as the others, whom I don't see as quite as innocent.

On the subject of voting, I'm sorry to not be, but as I keep repeating, I'm not doing so well, and I haven't been able to contact my other head. Here's this in the meantime: zwetschenwasser, ShadowLurker, KY Krew, Seraphim, GoofballsAndBaloons, Bagel Eating Cowfrog, Thok, Gaspar, Might Orbots, elmosaurian.

Also, at the risk of encouraging a problem by giving attention to it, I want to make sure everyone's cautious about voting a player past -2, with Mister Married To Hammers in the thread. If you need to put someone at an operative -1, just state clearly that you would vote them.