/in-vitational 2 - Chosen, Karaoke - Game over! before 830

[Scien]

Typically? More of a scum tell. In this game? Meh. Less of one, but maybe still a bit on the scummy side.

Doesn't mean that I am just going to lynch him without thinking about it.

What were your questions to him again?

[MiteyMouse]

I have done a quick reread and have added someone to my probable Town list...Hohum. It really sucks too because I was sure earlier that he was Scum. His very recent inactivity and the way he just kind of dropped back to "not beat a dead horse" is what makes me think this. He's not one to give up and especially not as Scum and when he's in a game, he's in it, as we have all seen.

So, thinking that one of them is Scum and the other is not doesn't fit for me. I'm thinking we have some Town on Town action happening here.

unvote

I'm wanting a better read on Cojin and since he seems to like to respond to questions...
@Cojin...what do you think of Hohum's recent inactivity?
who are your top 3 suspects and why?

[Papa Zito]

Typically? More of a scum tell. In this game? Meh. Less of one, but maybe still a bit on the scummy side.

Hang on, hang on, follow me here.

Based on his general play, would you say you have a strong read on him, a weak read on him, or not much of a read at all?

[Incognito]

Vote Count #15 of Day 1

hohum (1) <-~ Sajin
Sajin (1) <-~ hohum
MiteyMouse (3) <-~ Zorblag, Nikanor, Cojin
Cojin (2) <-~ Papa Zito, qwints

Not voting (2) <-~ Scien, MiteyMouse

With 9 living, 5 will do it.

Friday, August 21st at 9 P.M. EDT.

[Scien]

No read. He should contribute more. I agree. People have questions out to him. He is not answering them. Although even I am unsure what those questions are, I guess I could go back and hunt for them.

Me voting him without anyone pressuring him with the questions would be like me voting a brick wall. There is no discussion going. Any additional pressure due to my vote is not going to do much until those questions are asked again.

List out your concerns and questions. Asking people to vote without doing that isn't going to accomplish anything.

[Papa Zito]

No read.

Arrite.

So here you have a player who you have no real read on (due to lack of contribution I'm assuming) but whose lurking you find slightly scummy. You've previously said in the thread that you have no real interest in pushing lurkers, so you're willing to let him slide.

Now let's take the scenario that the game is in LyLo and he's still around.

...

Do you see why this behavior shouldn't be tolerated?

You mentioned earlier that he's responded to questions. I disagree. His responses were basically "I have no real opinions" which, if not scummy, is certainly anti-town. Given that direct questioning hasn't yielded results, my opinion is that pressure just might. Therefore I have continually asked that other players add their vote to pressure Cojin into participating. (That said, I am absolutely for his lynch if this tactic fails to produce results as well)

Thank you for taking this tour through Papa Zito's thought process. We hope you enjoyed your time with us. Your exit is to your right; please watch your step.

[Zorblag]

Scien, again, make what you like of Sajin but when people realizes that them have made a mistake Troll finds it unsurprising that them would think others would see it as scummy. If you want a particularly good example of this take a look at MiteyMouse's mistake in Newbie Game 749 and reaction to being called on it a couple posts later. She, as town, assumes that people will find a mistake in reasoning (in this case mixing up how many scum be left in the game) will make her look scummy and lead to a quick hammer.

Yes, she made a mistake there. All the while it appears that she proclaimed that she was indeed town. She never lead with 'oh that was scummy'. She just assumed that it would lead to her lynch it appears, and cried as hard as she could cry that she was town.

I understand what you are saying. Truly I do. Now shush for a sec Zorblag, I wanna talk to Sajin. Both times I started mentioning it I got a stronger reaction from you than him, and there really is no pressure on him at the moment...

For the record and for future reference, telling Troll to shush like that be a terrible way to achieve your desired result.

Sajin's initial reaction to making a mistake was to explicitly say that him could see why others would find it scummy and to implicitly assert that he was town. The former we have covered; the later came earlier. In the first post that him made once him realized that him had made a mistake this be what Sajin had to say:

I am willing to be the lynch but now instead of knowing I am not the chosen, I could be one. That sucks.

It no explicitly claims that him be town but him does the equivalent by saying that him might be a chosen. Him must be town to have a possibility of being a chosen.

For MiteyMouse, her initial reaction was to implicity say that she could see that others would find the mistake scummy and then explicitly say that she was town. She actually does that in two consequtive posts:

I know how bad that sounded but, I'm not Scum...lynching me today will put you back here tomorrow but, with 2 less Town!

I really don't blame anyone that hammers me now. To be honest, if I saw that I'd hammer but, please know that if you do, you will not be hammering a Scum.

She no explicitly uses the words that she sees how people could see what she did was scummy but if she didn't hold that opinion why would she expect to be hammered?

Scien be making a distinction there based on the what them be saying versus what them be implying. The sentiment in both reactions was the same; them both had made a mistake and it probably made others think them were scummy but that them were town.

Beyond that particular point, have you been following Troll's conversation with Sajin? Troll no particularly expects him to give answers that will be that useful based on what him has been doing with Troll. If you be using a point which Troll no thinks has merit to attack him then Troll has no trouble at all pointing out the flaws in it as Troll thinks him be likely to be town, him might be a chosen and him be unlikely to be able to do so adequately himself. If it weren't for the possibility of him being the chosen Troll would probably just let Scien do as him likes here but Troll wants to make sure that Scien has thought through the reasons him gives for suspecting Sajin in this game because of that dynamic.

And on a completely different topic,

I'm wanting a better read on Cojin and since he seems to like to respond to questions...
@Cojin...what do you think of Hohum's recent inactivity?
who are your top 3 suspects and why?

Troll assumes that this be sincere but in some ways Troll hopes that Troll has that wrong. Why does MiteyMouse think that Cojin likes responding to questions? One of the big issues people have been raising about him be that him hasn't been responding to questions.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[MiteyMouse]

He got excited early on in the game that people were adressing questions to him. And right now, we really need him talking! This deadline is coming really fast!

[Scien]

Do you see why this behavior shouldn't be tolerated?

You would have to add a chosen being dead to that worse case scenario. We are not there yet. So no. No I don't see why it shouldn't be tolerated. Lurking is scummy, but never enough for me to lynch on for lurking alone. Add it to a case? Then maybe. In a game where we have a no-lynch option and it actually might work out for us in some cases? Then that lessens the whole, 'the lurker is going to be the death of us' complaint in my opinion.

This is not worse case scenario yet. And I don't think the slippery slope that you seem to be suggesting is very likely. 'If we don't get him now, he will do the same when it really matters'. Eh, don't think so.

You mentioned earlier that he's responded to questions. I disagree.

His post 7 in isolation. Questions posed. Questions answered. If you have questions now, why not ask them in the same manner?

Don't get me wrong man. I don't like the way he is playing either. But I have more interesting people to deal with at the moment rather than a lurker.

[1] For the record and for future reference, telling Troll to shush like that be a terrible way to achieve your desired result.

[2] Sajin's initial reaction to making a mistake was to explicitly say that him could see why others would find it scummy and to implicitly assert that he was town. The former we have covered; the later came earlier. In the first post that him made once him realized that him had made a mistake this be what Sajin had to say

[1] Apparently. Here I am asking him questions and it is more like I was examining you. I don't know if this is out of character for you, but I believe in the past you have liked to get the words straight from the horses mouth. It is interesting to me that this is the third time that I have asked questions directly to him, and you have felt the need to comment. Way different than what I know of you. Would you cooperate and let me talk to the man? I promise I won't pull a Hohum on him.

Possibilities?
- You are confident that he is town through his discussions and are trying to convince me of it. Ok, but then why not allow me to get to the same conclusion through discussion with him? Why are you so sure that you don't need to hear from him any more. Answering for him is limiting any additional information you could get out of him at the same time that you are possibly aiding him in finding the most logical answers to my concerns.
- You are confident that he is not town and do not wish for him to make a logical mistake while talking with the town

You are being frustrating.

[2] This is exactly my point. I'm not sure at all that a person in townie shoes needs to do the assertion that they are town by saying 'Hey I know why that was scummy.' It is more typical to assert directly that they are town and explain why the action was

NOT

scummy. Especially when a townie would

know

the action was not scummy, and would not 'know that it was scummy'.

Lets talk about this later.

I am willing to be the lynch but now instead of knowing I am not the chosen, I could be one. That sucks.

It no explicitly claims that him be town but him does the equivalent by saying that him might be a chosen. Him must be town to have a possibility of being a chosen.

You are actually going to use that quote in a defense of him? It is obvious appeal to emotion. Basically a, "Dang it I screwed up... kill me if you want, but dang it I am town."

Appeals to emotion don't work on me.

She no explicitly uses the words that she sees how people could see what she did was scummy but if she didn't hold that opinion why would she expect to be hammered?

Also my point. She may feel the town staring at her, but she didn't pull the, 'opps, that was scummy'. She knew her actions could be explained in a pro-town way. She knew the town was making a mistake. I don't know what she did after but I assume she tried to show the town that a townie could have made the mistake.

She definitely didn't claim that the action itself was scummy. There is a difference here that I would like to discuss with Sajin. Depending on what he says, I may indeed come around to thinking like you do. However, not until me and him talk.

Beyond that particular point, have you been following Troll's conversation with Sajin? Troll no particularly expects him to give answers that will be that useful based on what him has been doing with Troll. If you be using a point which Troll no thinks has merit to attack him then Troll has no trouble at all pointing out the flaws in it as Troll thinks him be likely to be town, him might be a chosen and him be unlikely to be able to do so adequately himself. If it weren't for the possibility of him being the chosen Troll would probably just let Scien do as him likes here but Troll wants to make sure that Scien has thought through the reasons him gives for suspecting Sajin in this game because of that dynamic.

See this is interesting. You are claiming that you believe Sajin town, and so I should not be examining him, based on the fact that he might be chosen and it is risky for the town for me to look at him. That makes absolutely no sense from a player of your caliber. You think me unreasonable, you don't think that I can be swayed by his answers? I know there are issues with my attack. I want him to find him. I want him to have a chance to make a mistake. If he is town the logical counter to my complaints will be clear as day to him. If he is scum he will have to think a little harder and may screw up. But in either case the town would have more information and it would be a good thing.

You trying to stop it based on what you are saying makes NO sense. NO sense. Him talking, if he is town should do no harm. Him talking to me, if my attack is weak, should do NO harm to him. If he answered correctly in his own words, it would either sway me or expose me if you think I am attacking him completely unjustly.

No. This is strange. You are attempting to halt discussion here that should do no harm to town if he is indeed town like you believe him to be. This is way out of character for you.

FoS: Zorblag

Sajin, please answer my concerns on post 422. Even if you decide to use Zorblag's answers I would still like to talk with you.

[MiteyMouse]

Now Scien...right now, Cojin's lurking is not that bad for you but, his lurking and this close to deadline might be worst case scenario for me. It looks as if I am the target for today and someone who is lurking is going to get a free pass to Day 2 while I'm going to be the first dead Townie...and that sucks for me.

Speaking of which

vote: Cojin

because if it's your ass or mine, I'd prefer it not to be mine!

[Zorblag]

Scien, Troll could go through and point out many things that Troll disagrees with about what you have just said but Troll will keep this simple.

1. Troll no be stopping you from talking to Sajin. Troll no be answering the questions that you be asking him. If him tried to use what Troll had said as an answer him would be doing himself no favors.

2. When MiteyMouse says, "I really don't blame anyone that hammers me now. To be honest, if I saw that I'd hammer but ..." she most certainly does be acknowledging that her actions seemed scummy. She in fact did not go on to show why her mistake could have been made as town.

3. Sajin no says that his actions were scummy. Him says that him sees how others could see them as scummy. The appeal to emotion that you saying him be making be exactly what MiteyMouse was doing when she said she was town.

4. Troll never said that you no should be examining Sajin. Troll be saying that the things you be building on here be a weak case. Troll no even be complaining about half of what you be bringing up for that matter (the focus on hohum.) You be welcome to find whatever you like as a case to use against anyone. If Troll thinks them be strong or even neutral Troll will let you make them largely without comment. If you try to push something Troll thinks be weak Troll will explain the troubles Troll has with it.

5. If Sajin be town that no be any sort of guarantee that him will be able to put forward a decent argument on his own behalf. The reasons no need to be as clear as you be saying them be and even if them were that no means that him would present them well. Further, if him were scum nothing would stop him from being able to come up with the reasons that you have in mind anyhow.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Sajin]

I think I have answered all of those points before with the exception of C. There is a large difference between your points and hohums. Hohum was charging forth blindly not caring about the other side of the arguement. I was attempting to acknowledge the other side of the arguement. It does not mean I agree with it nor accept it. Take that point of view or leave it. I really don't care.

Mitey that statement seems fairly scummy to me. Why would you perfer it not to be you?

[MiteyMouse]

2. When MiteyMouse says, "I really don't blame anyone that hammers me now. To be honest, if I saw that I'd hammer but ..." she most certainly does be acknowledging that her actions seemed scummy. She in fact did not go on to show why her mistake could have been made as town.

Are we talking about 749 or this game here?

[Zorblag]

Troll was using something you did in NG 749 as an example of how town reacts when them realize them have made a mistake. As Troll said at the time it was exactly the reaction Troll expects from town. Troll be comparing it to how Sajin reacted in this game when him made a mistake favorably. You be welcome to comment on that if you like.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[MiteyMouse]

Sajin...I know that I am Town and would prefer to have someone who is not talking dead than me. I am a shitty Day 1 player and am very well aware of that ( as is anyone who has ever played a Day 1 with me) but, I can be an asset in later parts of the game. I guess you have to decide if it's better to keep someone who is not posting in here over me.

I'm willing to eat the lynch but, the selfish side of me would prefer to play on. I like this game and love this group of players....

[Scien]

@MM 434: It is never an either or, and whoever sets things up that way should be examined carefully. Are you doing it here?

Also even though deadline is fast approaching, we have time to discuss yet.

1. Troll no be stopping you from talking to Sajin. Troll no be answering the questions that you be asking him.
[...]
2. When MiteyMouse says, "I really don't blame anyone that hammers me now. To be honest, if I saw that I'd hammer but ..." she most certainly does be acknowledging that her actions seemed scummy.
[...]
3. Sajin no says that his actions were scummy. Him says that him sees how others could see them as scummy. The appeal to emotion that you saying him be making be exactly what MiteyMouse was doing when she said she was town.
[...]
4. Troll never said that you no should be examining Sajin. Troll be saying that the things you be building on here be a weak case. Troll no even be complaining about half of what you be bringing up for that matter (the focus on hohum.) You be welcome to find whatever you like as a case to use against anyone. If Troll thinks them be strong or even neutral Troll will let you make them largely without comment. If you try to push something Troll thinks be weak Troll will explain the troubles Troll has with it.
[...]
5. If Sajin be town that no be any sort of guarantee that him will be able to put forward a decent argument on his own behalf. The reasons no need to be as clear as you be saying them be and even if them were that no means that him would present them well. Further, if him were scum nothing would stop him from being able to come up with the reasons that you have in mind anyhow.

1) Meh.
2) Again I see what you are saying, but would like to discuss that with others.
3) I understand the difference and would like to discuss that with others. As for the appeal to emotion, yes Mitey is also known for using it, here as well as in other games. It wouldn't work on me there either.
4) Meh.
5) Then bring up your complaints when it is obvious that I am attacking him for an issue with him representing himself rather than actions in the game or derived logic. You are doing the town and yourself a disservice by impeding even a a weak attack. Even if you are sure he is town, the attack itself can give you some read on me.

I think I have answered all of those points before with the exception of C.

I don't think you have.
1) Why did you 'see why people think you scum' for a mistake which is obvious at that point could have been made by either side and you admit you realized it was a null tell at that point?
2) It is a small jump to say that due to [A] you are claiming that before we started talking about the mistake being a null tell, you thought the mistake looked scummy. Is this the case? If not, why did you decide to lead with [A]? If it is the case that you at one point thought making the mistake was scummy, why did you change your mind about your own actions?

There is a large difference between your points and hohums. Hohum was charging forth blindly not caring about the other side of the arguement. I was attempting to acknowledge the other side of the arguement. It does not mean I agree with it nor accept it. Take that point of view or leave it. I really don't care.

Meh. You should care. But besides that, so you are saying that your claim that he is 'taking advantage' is based on the way that he 'discussed' with you, and not based on him talking about the mistake? If so then, meh. I guess that is an ok answer.

[Zorblag]

1. Troll no be stopping you from talking to Sajin. Troll no be answering the questions that you be asking him.
[...]
2. When MiteyMouse says, "I really don't blame anyone that hammers me now. To be honest, if I saw that I'd hammer but ..." she most certainly does be acknowledging that her actions seemed scummy.
[...]
3. Sajin no says that his actions were scummy. Him says that him sees how others could see them as scummy. The appeal to emotion that you saying him be making be exactly what MiteyMouse was doing when she said she was town.
[...]
4. Troll never said that you no should be examining Sajin. Troll be saying that the things you be building on here be a weak case. Troll no even be complaining about half of what you be bringing up for that matter (the focus on hohum.) You be welcome to find whatever you like as a case to use against anyone. If Troll thinks them be strong or even neutral Troll will let you make them largely without comment. If you try to push something Troll thinks be weak Troll will explain the troubles Troll has with it.
[...]
5. If Sajin be town that no be any sort of guarantee that him will be able to put forward a decent argument on his own behalf. The reasons no need to be as clear as you be saying them be and even if them were that no means that him would present them well. Further, if him were scum nothing would stop him from being able to come up with the reasons that you have in mind anyhow.

1) Meh.
2) Again I see what you are saying, but would like to discuss that with others.
3) I understand the difference and would like to discuss that with others. As for the appeal to emotion, yes Mitey is also known for using it, here as well as in other games. It wouldn't work on me there either.
4) Meh.
5) Then bring up your complaints when it is obvious that I am attacking him for an issue with him representing himself rather than actions in the game or derived logic. You are doing the town and yourself a disservice by impeding even a a weak attack. Even if you are sure he is town, the attack itself can give you some read on me.

2. It no be clear that you do see what Troll be saying given that you said:

She definitely didn't claim that the action itself was scummy. There is a difference here that I would like to discuss with Sajin.

Sajin's alignment would have nothing to do with his ability to answer to the distinction there, his ability to grasp subtlety would.

You be welcome to discuss it with others all you want but if you be taking an inconsistent stance Troll will call you on it.

5. Allowing people to make weak attacks on those who Troll suspects no will defend themselves well with no comment be a disservice to the town. Troll be calling you on one and the reaction that you be giving does give the town more to work with in terms of reading you.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[MiteyMouse]

Ok Zorblag. I was just confused. I knew you sighted me for my reaction in the other game but, wasn't sure if you were talking about Sajin or I in the last quote.

Now my comments to it. I'm not really sure that it's fair to use my reaction in that game as a basis of suspicion on Sajin. He and I are different people and to show that people react that way is fine but, saying that he didn't react the same might not be fair.

I will comment more on this but, my supper is ready...

[Zorblag]

Troll be saying that him did act how you acted. Troll be using that as part of a reason that him no was doing what Scien says he was; saying that his previous play had been scummy. Troll has seen players look back and say that their play was scummy. You didn't do it when you made your mistake. Sajin didn't do it in this game. Both of you reacted as Troll would expect town to and acknowledged that others could see the play as scummy.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Sajin]

I said I saw how others could see it as scummy. When did I change my mind about my actions? Given the information I had I thought I was making the best play to my win condition. At first I thought "how the hell could you be seeing this as scummy?" because I thought the claiming idea was an incredibly beneficial thing to do. When I understood the attacks on me were for rolefishing that did not make sense to me either. I finally understood that he thought I was confused scum. And yes I was able to picture that situation and I acknowledge its feasibility but certainly not its actuality.

(for the record I have a 3-0 record as scum on this site, I will be happy to link it all if you wish, if you think I made a scum slip because I am noob scum etc. Mostly for hohum but I doubt he would even read it anyways. Nor would he care about this point. Ah well.)


Furthermore- I think lynching out of me and hohum is the best situation. Posit his meta and his inability to tunnel/vote/pressure anyone but me. If he is scum lynch him. If he is town, lynching him removes a vote scum would have anyways in a LY/LO situation and lynching me gives him a new direction for his tunneling (hopefully anyways). Going a different direction is only going to force our hand at a later date. (and yes I did change my stance on hohum, at first I thought he was being opportunistic. Now I just think he is being hardheaded as either alignment)

Thus I really "don't care" because I think it is in towns best interest to vote hohum today and failing that, me. Well that and I really don't like psychoanalysis debates. I don't find them fruitful ever and find them boring when reading them from an outside perspective and am annoyed when I am the subject of them. Shrug.

[MiteyMouse]

Zorblag...sorry, supper interupted my thought...hehehe! I misunderstood what Scien was saying and that was meant for him and not you.

[Zorblag]

Ah, Troll had assumed that you were talking about Troll there as it no be fair to accuse Scien of using how you reacted as part of his case against Sajin. Troll was the one that brought the example up to reinforce a point Troll was making; Scien appears to have disagreed about how similar the situations were but Troll no saw him using that as part of his case.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[MiteyMouse]

Yeah...I think I misunderstood on my first read.

[Papa Zito]

So no. No I don't see why it shouldn't be tolerated. Lurking is scummy, but never enough for me to lynch on for lurking alone.

Wow.

Okay, let me try another tack. How are you going to get a read on Cojin?

[Zorblag]

Actually, speaking of lurking,

Mod: Can we get another prod for Nikanor?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh