Mini 828 - ProzacMod 3 - Lost Mafia - Over
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Jebus Mafia Scum
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jasonT1981 Jack of All Trades
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Well if I think you both are scum.. have given evidence to suggest why i think you both are... then it stands to reason I think you are bussing if I see your vote on the other person I suspect of being scum no?Locke Lamora wrote:So you think I'm bussing because you think I'm scum and you think Reckoner's scum, not because you've seen evidence of bussing like that in CDB's argument?-
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Locke Lamora Mafia Scum
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Yes, exactly. That's what I was asking. CDB has made the argument that he thinks the timing and reasoning of my vote indicates scum bussing Reckoner after seeing if the wagon would fly or not. You don't have any actual argument for bussing other than the fact you think we're both scum. You said you had a feeling I was bussing but didn't know why. You haven't made a connection between us, you haven't looked at the posts and drawn a conclusion like CDB did, so you don't actually have a case for bussing, do you?If ya smell what The Locke is cookin'!
"Locke Lamora and Andrius, defying all logic since 1081."-
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jasonT1981 Jack of All Trades
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Locke Lamora Mafia Scum
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I just told you I understand. My point is that's not a case for bussing. Read CDB in 243 and 245. That's a case for bussing. Your case is Locke scum + Reckoner scum + Locke voting for Reckoner = bussing. That's just stating the obvious. Not only that, but why did you mention bussing but didn't mention any of CDB's case?If ya smell what The Locke is cookin'!
"Locke Lamora and Andrius, defying all logic since 1081."-
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xRECKONERx GD is my Best Man
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Why so impatient?Reckoner wrote:I'd like to hear what VPB thought of my response to his case on me.
Yes, but the town motivation of moving the game along is there, correct? How solid of a case do you think someone should be able to bring before voting that early in the game?Reckoner wrote:The reasoning wasn't solid, I'm saying. Scum motivation for trying to move the game out of RVS isn't there, but neither is any solid reasoning.
Your vibes are wrong. You don't have to read through pages of other games to check on these things. If player X always acts angry when questioned as town, then that should become less of a factor in your read of them being scum, correct? I'm not saying you have to discount your vibes, but you have to take them in context as well. Skimming a couple iso reads to look for something specific takes all of about 3 minutes.Reckoner wrote:Hey, guess what, you can get vibes from people without knowing their meta. I know, crazy, right? Because some Mafia players like myself don't have time to read through pages of old games just to memorize someone's playstyle.
A mistake was printed of jason instead of jacob. Jason misread this as an attack on him when it was really just a failed joke.Reckoner wrote:I failed to see how that was a misreading of a mistake.
My point is that you sheeped onto the case (which you attacked jason for earlier, iirc) and padded your case with bogus reasons to make it look less than completely obvious.Reckoner wrote:I agreed with the wagon and added some ADDITIONAL things that were bothering me re: Jason.
This is probably the least valid example available.zoneace wrote:The best example was his bringing up (i think) CDB's wiki entry. It made it look like he was doing something and being helpful, but in reality accomplished nothing.
Hey!porochaz wrote:Santos has replaced Drench
re:bussing talk---please stop. I hate bussing talk when there have been no alignment flips. Find scum and you can do wagon analysis later. Doing it now is more likely scum trying to fabricate reasons for voting, and/or working toward chain lynches. + scum points for jason especially-
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xRECKONERx GD is my Best Man
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*sigh* There's no pleasing you, is there, Baltar?
1. I wouldn't say that "moving the game along" is a town motivation. Moving the game along towards a scum lynch, sure. But scum motivation can be moving the game along towards a town lynch. It's a null tell, really.
2. Pretty ballsy to say that my vibes are flat-out wrong without having any sort of role knowledge.
3. Ah, I didn't even remotely grasp that... thanks.
4. I'll admit that I voted him for primarily regurgitated reasoning (hence me not posting any additional reasons at first) and when I went back to re-read jason's iso, I saw a few extra things that hadn't been brought up that I wanted answered.
5. Well, at least we can both agree on that one.green shirt thursdays-
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Juls Jack of All Trades
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Oh OK. I see what you mean now. When I said "you are town or this is some pro-manufactured rage.", I meant it in more of a "if you are faking this rage then you will have seriously impressed me because I don't think you are faking it". Understand better now?Emptyger wrote:You seem to say “either Zoneace is town or he’s pretending to be town; therefore he’s town”, which obviously doesn’t follow. You clarify in [214] that you thought Zoneace is town because he wouldn't want to call attention to himself if he were guilty. Except that at that time, he was already at the center of attention!
So, basically, I'm asking you to reconcile your analysis of Zoneace with that fact.
Preimptive defense noted.jason 260 wrote:Am responding to each post as I read them so If it seems I am mirroring anyones thoughts sorry, these are mine at the time of reading them
I object. Speculation. Move to strike.jason 260 wrote:I do not know why, I am getting the feeling of bussing his partner... at this point I am thinking a Locke/Reckoner scum partnership.
Seriously though, I don't like that you use this as a basis for your argument that these two are scum. State your case without this I don't even blink at it...add this and it feels like you are reaching.
More of the same. Please, present this case of bussing clearly so we can all see it....cause I call BS.jason 260 wrote:I really have got a strong sense of bussing myself actually when it came to you LL.
Welcome Santos!Santos 265 wrote:confirmed
Please give me time to catch up.
Plus townpoints for seeing what I am seeing.LL 277 wrote:Yes, exactly. That's what I was asking. CDB has made the argument that he thinks the timing and reasoning of my vote indicates scum bussing Reckoner after seeing if the wagon would fly or not. You don't have any actual argument for bussing other than the fact you think we're both scum. You said you had a feeling I was bussing but didn't know why. You haven't made a connection between us, you haven't looked at the posts and drawn a conclusion like CDB did, so you don't actually have a case for bussing, do you?
Plus townpoints for seeing what I am seeing. Could this be VPB and Juls agreeing on something for the first time in three games?!?!?!?! No way!VPB 281 wrote:re:bussing talk---please stop. I hate bussing talk when there have been no alignment flips. Find scum and you can do wagon analysis later. Doing it now is more likely scum trying to fabricate reasons for voting, and/or working toward chain lynches. + scum points for jason especially
I can vouch for the truth of this comment (ok, sorry. will stop now. )Reckoner wrote:*sigh* There's no pleasing you, is there, Baltar?-------------------------------------
Juls-
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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@ Reckoner
1) moving the game out of RVS is more likely to be carried about by town than scum. Plain and simple. More often than not, scum are not going to want to be sticking their necks out early in the game by going after people. They would rather wait for a secure wagon to form and then chime in to try and drive it through.
2) That's how I roll.
3) Ok, I dont' even care about this one that much, so agree to disagree.
4) Then why not just say you are voting him for other people's reasons? Yeah, it's not going to look that great, but it looks a lot better than fabricating some garbage to make your case look better.
5) See, I'm notthatunreasonable.
*scrolls down*
Juls wrote:Reckoner wrote:
*sigh* There's no pleasing you, is there, Baltar?
I can vouch for the truth of this comment (ok, sorry. will stop now. )
WHAT!!!!!!!
Awww, you know I think you're the tops...even if we both know every game has to end with us entering a winner-take-all bloodbath in the Thunderdome.Juls wrote:Could this be VPB and Juls agreeing on something for the first time in three games?!?!?!?! No way!-
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EmpTyger It's a JOKE!
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VP:
The answers are “A lot of people” and “I’m not sure”. (Yeah, I know. I’ll elaborate.)VP Baltar [261] wrote: Emptyger, who do you think is scum and why? You've been playing this background investigator role for far too long now.
There’s a lot of things that are *wrong* in this game. But the issue I’m having is that Player A will pick up on some *wrong* thing X that Player B is doing- but when Player C, D, or even A themself does X, A either ignores it, or, paradoxically, they’ll say that X is an innocent thing.
So, when I look at players in isolation- I do find some suspicious enough to vote. When I look at the bigger picture, though- I can’t get past that something weird is going on. And I’m more concerned about that weirdness right now than simply making a case against whoever has done the most *wrong* things.
If I had to pick one player in isolation right now: Jason. If I had to achieve an immediate lynch: I’d go along with Reckoner. If I was simply trying to pressure someone: Jebus. But, I *don’t* have to do any of these things right now, I’d rather hear the As to elaborate on the Xs.
(Incidentally, while I agree with some of your sentiments about the current arguments for bussing, I don’t think that’s a reason to not discuss it. In fact, I’d say that that’s a reason *to* discuss. Discussing allows the opportunity to rebut something that’s false, or to get on the table something that’s a possibility. There’s no guarantee that player who notices the possibility will still be alive after the reveal- or the players who would rebut it still be alive either. In short: discussion is good.)
Also:
First you said that Jason's vote on Zoneace was “just sheeping along”.
Then you said that that vote was “scumhunting”.
Now you’re saying that
So, which is it?VP Baltar [284] wrote:<snip>
moving the game out of RVS is more likely to be carried about by town than scum. Plain and simple. More often than not, scum are not going to want to be sticking their necks out early in the game by going after people. They would rather wait for a secure wagon to form and then chime in to try and drive it through.
<snip>
Jason:
But you haven’t done this.jasonT1981 [276] wrote:<snip>
Well if I think you both are scum.. have given evidence to suggest why i think you both are... then it stands to reason I think you are bussing if I see your vote on the other person I suspect of being scum no?
You’ve said that LL is guilty because it seems like he’s bussing Reckoner…
And then you’ve said that LL is bussing Reckoner because they’re both guilty.
That couldn’t be more circular.
The closest thing to an actual suspicion of LL that I’ve heard is “his vote was opportunistic”- but how was the way he voted any different from, say, how you voted Zoneace? Was that opportunistic of you? Were you bussing Zoneace?
I mean, earlier you attacked Reckoner for being 100% you were guilty, didn’t you? How is this different?
Zoneace:
I agree with that logic in theory, but as others have already said, that’s not an instance of it. Or are you implying that Reckoner deliberately misread CDB’s post?
Juls:
Okay, thanks for clarifying. Although, I will say that I happen to disagree with your opinion.
While I don’t have any experience with Zoneace, I have seen mafia in other games react this way when they feel they’re getting attention for illegitimate reasons. And I can certainly see it possible for a guilty Zoneace to have thought that he should not be facing a lynch (and perhaps being bussed by Jason?) for the reasons he was. In any case, according to VP, it sounds like this behavior isn’t exceptional enough that it would be difficult for him to feign it if necessary.-
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xRECKONERx GD is my Best Man
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Basically what I am saying is that it reads to me like scumhunting coming from Jason. The does not mean that I think it is good scumhunting, just that he seemed to be trying to his own ability level. I've never played with him before or seen him in a game, so I jumped on him early for "sheeping", but as the game has progressed that seems to be his modus operandi. In other words, my gut is telling me that jason would sheep as both town and scum.Emptyger wrote:So, which is it?
In other news, I don't quite buy your whole 'feeling out the weirdness' thing here. It's page 12 for crying out loud and you haven't voted anyone. What is your exact plan here, wait until deadline and then plunk down on the leading wagon?
Discussing something that has no logical reason to be believed either way is a major waste of time on D1. This is particularly true when you start going down the road that jason was heading where the 'bussing theory' was starting to become a scumpoint. In short: not all discussion is good.Emptyger wrote:Discussing allows the opportunity to rebut something that’s false, or to get on the table something that’s a possibility. There’s no guarantee that player who notices the possibility will still be alive after the reveal- or the players who would rebut it still be alive either. In short: discussion is good.
So you agree with me that it is a horrible discussion point? Why would you think it's a good idea to even bring to the table then?Emptyger wrote:You’ve said that LL is guilty because it seems like he’s bussing Reckoner…
And then you’ve said that LL is bussing Reckoner because they’re both guilty.
That couldn’t be more circular.-
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EmpTyger It's a JOKE!
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VP:
No, my exact plan here is, as I just said, to inquire into why some players are making accusations against one player but ignoring or excusing the same behavior in others.VP Baltar [287] wrote:<snip>
I don't quite buy your whole 'feeling out the weirdness' thing here. It's page 12 for crying out loud and you haven't voted anyone. What is your exact plan here, wait until deadline and then plunk down on the leading wagon?
If Jason is innocent- as you say you think: then it’s good to explain to him why the conclusions he’s drawing are wrong.VP Baltar [cont] wrote:
Discussing something that has no logical reason to be believed either way is a major waste of time on D1. This is particularly true when you start going down the road that jason was heading where the 'bussing theory' was starting to become a scumpoint. In short: not all discussion is good.Emptyger wrote:Discussing allows the opportunity to rebut something that’s false, or to get on the table something that’s a possibility. There’s no guarantee that player who notices the possibility will still be alive after the reveal- or the players who would rebut it still be alive either. In short: discussion is good.
If Reckoner is guilty- as you say you think: then it’s good to explore with who.
(Unless, of course, you’re confident that you’re going to be able to do these things after Reckoner’s reveal?)
More importantly, if Jason is *not* innocent- a conclusion which I don’t see how you can be certain of: then why are you trying to stop him from incriminating himself?
No, I don’t agree that it’s a horrible discussion point.VP Baltar [cont] wrote:<snip>
So you agree with me that it is a horrible discussion point? Why would you think it's a good idea to even bring to the table then?
I think the argument Jason was trying to make is horrible. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be discussed. See above for 3 reasons why.
Reckoner:
What about CDB and Zoneace?-
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xRECKONERx GD is my Best Man
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Locke Lamora Mafia Scum
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ChannelDelibird He/theyCard CzarHe/they
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Santos Mafia Scum
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Unvote
FoS: Locke Lamora, because the evidence against you and your arguments refuting the accusations still make me think you've just been following along in this thread as pointed out by curiouskarmadog. However, as that is most of what is suspicious about you, I would rather keep my eye on you and what you do in the future as opposed to lynching you.
Also, its 7 votes to lynch right, with 12 being alive...6 votes +1 required for majority, etc.
Vote: RECKONERfor his initial reason to move a vote on Jason. Its too opportunistic.
Furthermore, ZONEACE, *facepalm* but I'm glad to see you're more cool headed.
Vp Baltar, hey hey, good to see you
Everyone else and the questions posed to Drench, if you want them answered then please oblige me with presenting the cases again and I will do my best to answer for my predecessor's play, votes, etc.
*after hitting the preview button*
Unvote
I need a vote count and a confirmation of what L-??? we're at so far on RECKONER, please.
FoS: RECKONERfor the same reasons. Right now I'm not comfortable placing a vote in my first post of the game without a more recent vote count on my behalf, if you please
Cheers, I await questions, responses.-
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Locke Lamora Mafia Scum
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Similar question to the one I asked CDB recently, really. How is this:
different from this?:Drench wrote: jason is pinging the scumdar.FoS: Jason.
Also, what is your read on Jason?xRECKONERx wrote:Jason is definitely setting in my crosshairs...
Unvote, Vote: JasonIf ya smell what The Locke is cookin'!
"Locke Lamora and Andrius, defying all logic since 1081."-
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EmpTyger It's a JOKE!
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Santos:
Reckoner is at lynch-2. So unless one of these mysterious modquestions doublevoted you or made Reckonere 1 less to lynch, your little stunt shouldn’t have lynched him. Really, why did you vote in [292]?
Reckoner:
You’ve said that LL and Jason are mafia, and that VP’s case is weak. What about CDB (who, as he just mentioned, started your wagon) and Zoneace (who is also voting you)?
LL:
That, plus the fact that he hasn’t done anything in the past 10 days, and there no longer seems to be any excuse for it. Kind of hard to compare the suspicious things, say, Reckoner has done since then to Jebus’s nothing.-
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Jebus Mafia Scum
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Hai, been busy recently.
First off, I support the Reckoner wagon (currently reading in isolation, will post later).
Second, in response to Emp from way back, that was laziness at 1:00 am, I really don't know what I was thinking then >.<
Third, expect a decent sized post soon.Bastard ModGod. Mislynch fodder. Suave savior.-
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Porochaz Oh, Prozac
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xRECKONERx - 5 - ChannelDelibird, VP Baltar, Jason, Locke Lamora, ZONEACE
Jason - 3 - Juls, Jebus, xReckonerx
LockeLamora - 1 - curiouskarmadog
Jebus - 1 - canadianbovine
Not Voting:
Emptyger, Santos
Deadline August 21st 3pm
Noone has requested a prod. Will look into canadianbovine.
Question posted soonLast edited by Porochaz on Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.Mostly retired. Unless you ask or it's something interesting.-
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Porochaz Oh, Prozac
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Jebus Mafia Scum
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xRECKONERx GD is my Best Man
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