/in-vitational 2 - Chosen, Karaoke - Game over! before 830

[hohum]

@MM: please take the time to address zorblag's concerns rather than continuing to flame me for my play style.

[hohum]

@MM: You didn't even bother to ask why zorblag thinks you're scummy. You've got a big guilty sign around your neck.

[MiteyMouse]

Sorry Zorblag...Hohum distracted me again...

MiteyMouse: You've seen Papa Zito play as scum. If him be playing differently than you've ever seen him play before why should that be a scum tell for you rather than a town tell? If you've only got one other than yourself who you think is likely town (and it do be clear who it is based on what you've said) why is it that you're saying that you're finding more town tells than normal this game. Just thinking that one other be town no strikes Troll as remarkable at all. Your failure to realize that we can win this game as town if we don't kill scum but keep both chosen alive be concerning to Troll given the experience Troll knows you have with the chosen dynamic. Right now Troll finds MiteyMouse scummier than average.

Zorblag...I have seen Papa play both as Town and Scum...and actually had the pleasure of being his first Scum partner. My strategy in that game was to stay quieter than usual and fly under the radar. I'm wondering if he's adapting that...or he could be drowning in the flood that is Hohum!

I'm trying to adapt a process of elimination style Zorblag. I used it in a game before and it worked really well for me. Now, I think that Sajin is more likely Town as, he has dropped several Town slips. Others have been dropped by other people but, not enough for me to think that they are more likely Town than Scum.

Yeah...for the last part all I can say is I had a brain fart.

[hohum]

looking for town tells is something scum would do in order to appear to be on the correct side of a mislynch. Scum have the benefit of always being correct because they have inside knowledge of the setup.

I'm waiting for PZ to respond, but MM just went off the cliff.

[MiteyMouse]

Perhaps it is something that Scum do but, it has been quite successful for me as Town. Would you like a link to a game where I did this as Town Hohum?

[hohum]

sure. I like meta as much as the next person.

Please paste the link.

[MiteyMouse]

http://www.facebook.com/board.php?uid=2 ... #topic_top
Start at post 52.

[hohum]

Really? You're going to quote facebook morons as your supporting meta?

[hohum]

there's a reason I don't play on facebook, and I know you at least superficially agree with me because you've said so to me privately in the past.

[MiteyMouse]

Oh Hohum...you suck!! In the nicest way possible of course. There are reasons that I spoke to you about that PRIVATELY!

That is a game that it worked for me as Town and that is what you wanted to see. As a disclaimer as people that I play with on FaceBook may be reading here...I love the people in the game...my issues are with the formatting of the game in general. They are however, the sweetest group of players that play this game.

[hohum]

Perhaps my choice of wording was a bit harsh. For any of her friends reading this game, moron was my word and not hers; however she's being less than upfront about what she has said about her experiences playing on facebook.

I'm not really going to go down this road any further though because it's basically my word against hers and it's quickly going to degenerate into a pointless argument.

[Sajin]

Avatar changes make me dizzy.

Sorry. I do sort of miss pooh but I need to use this one for at least a week, then I'm likely going to switch back.

The whole sajin situation

In sajin's very first post he's pushing for a mass claim. There are no power roles alive (other than the chosen) in this setup so claiming at any point serves only to generate useless banter.

Yet you voted for me on it and have not removed your vote since. Yet you claim it generated useless banter. Are you calling your own remarks on this topic "useless banter"? If not, what useless banter did it generate?

The fact that he was unaware that the chosen in fact does not know as such indicates that may not have received a townie role PM. I still contest that this is more of a scum tell than everyone seems to think it is and it was worth discussing. Certainly any scum tell (no matter how minor) on page one is worthy of a vote.

So you state its a fact I did not know chosen recieved a PM. Thats different from what you said before.

He then responded (post 19) eventually with an OMGUS under guise of supporting the idea of a random lynch.

When did I ever say it was random? BLATANT Misrep

He even later stated that he can see how his early posts could be interpreted as a scum tell (post 41) but attempts to reason that latching on to early scum tells is in of itself a scum tell (post 41, my response in 61, his in 62). The notion that I dare question him over a possible scum slip is anti-scum hunting (quite a large scum tell) at best, and downright ludicrous at worst.

Fair point. How is questioning something anti scumhunting though? Am I not allowed to question the posts of the infalible hohum?

He would also rather argue semantics over the definition of the term OMGUS than acknowledge he's being super over-defensive (48, 57, ).

WIFOM and a little bit of scum gaming in 50.

Quotes please. Your the one that brought OMGUS to the table. You have a meta of doing this as scum and town though.

At this point his activity level drops off of a cliff before he reappears in the thread in order to go on a strawman rampage.

Feel free to point out any strawman arguements I have made. You just state I am strawmanning and WIFOMing without pointing out when it happened. This is why I asked for a case. Empty accusations. Also, I would love to see anyone else willing to go along with the I am lurking implication. Does anyone think I am lurking besides Hohum?

General observations about his behavior:

1) He'd rather lynch randomly than do any scum hunting whatsoever I called him on this early on and he completely failed to even acknowledge that fact.

Again, why the random? I have pointed out legitimately scummy activites you have done and have essentially admitted to.

2) He continually distorts qwints' and my own (and everyone else's) positions on various matters.

More defense of qwints! Feel free to quote and explain how I distorted a position. Thats suppossed to be in your case you know. In fact I think you have distorted my own position numerous times in this very post.

3) He talks about game mechanics from time to time in order to appear helpful but hasn't really made any effort to do any real scum hunting of his own.

Because questioning you is not scum hunting? Mechanics are important but to say I have been excluding scum hunting is ludicrous

4) Virtually every other response to me since about page 4 has been "I don't see your case, you're full of shit" even though I have sitting here discussing it with him and others since, oh, page 1 or so. [/area]

I haven't decided who is likely sajin's scum partner but right now PZ and MM are my top suspects.

Your posts have been "Sajin is obv scum, lynch :Repeat" since page 1 or so. I would not call that a response to anything nor discussion.

As a separate point- How is calling someone likely town a scum tell? I see the motivation for scum to do it, but it makes just as much sense for town to do it.

[MiteyMouse]

Hohum...you're trying to play poke the mouse again.

[Incognito]

Vote Count #9 of Day 1

hohum (2) <-~ MiteyMouse, Sajin
qwints (2) <-~ Nikanor, Papa Zito
Cojin (1) <-~ qwints
Sajin (1) <-~ hohum
MiteyMouse (1) <-~ Zorblag

Not voting (2) <-~ Cojin, Scien

With 9 living, 5 will do it.

Friday, August 21st at 9 P.M. EDT.

[Papa Zito]

I'm waiting for PZ to respond, but MM just went off the cliff.

I'm actually waiting for Sajin to respond, which I see he just did.

I'm working on another game at the moment, I'll return here in a bit.

[qwints]

Let's not let Cojin get lost in the shuffle:

I havent been able to formulate an opinion nor find myself a time to interject myself into the conversation considering its 10% content 20% OMGUS and 70% ad hom.

Questions for Cojin:

1) Explain why you stated analyzing voting patterns was vital, then questioned why someone thought people not voting was bad.

2) What do you think of the hohum-Sajin argument? Who's misrepresenting whom?

3) Do you think MM's process of elimination style is a valid tactic?

[Sajin]

Hey qwints, what do you think of hohum?

[Cojin]

Yay questions for me.

1) Explain why you stated analyzing voting patterns was vital, then questioned why someone thought people not voting was bad.

2) What do you think of the hohum-Sajin argument? Who's misrepresenting whom?

3) Do you think MM's process of elimination style is a valid tactic?

1. I find cautious voting to be as important as analyzing votes, scum can day talk, dont misstepp into a quick lynch on a choosen.

2. Sajins idea of a mass claim and the argument that insues makes me feel sajin is acttualy makeing the mistake, what i gather from it is that he recived a pm telling him who the choosen were, and as a result assumed the choosen got one too. But at the same time it could be a misread but i also belive that hohums argument and adhomen are almost like panick at being cought, i will have to remain netural on both sides for now.

3.I dont get how it could work for him, only scum could gaurantee town, and valid town claims usualy mean said roll is dead.

[Zorblag]

Really Cojin? Neutral on both sides for hohum and Sajin? Troll often gets accused of fence sitting but that raises even Troll's eyebrows.

In that case (and it has been asked before but Troll will try again) who does look suspicious to you and why? Surely there be enough in this game that even with the extra noise you can find top suspects.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Sajin]

Yay questions for me.

1) Explain why you stated analyzing voting patterns was vital, then questioned why someone thought people not voting was bad.

2) What do you think of the hohum-Sajin argument? Who's misrepresenting whom?

3) Do you think MM's process of elimination style is a valid tactic?

1. I find cautious voting to be as important as analyzing votes, scum can day talk, dont misstepp into a quick lynch on a choosen.

2. Sajins idea of a mass claim and the argument that insues makes me feel sajin is acttualy makeing the mistake, what i gather from it is that he recived a pm telling him who the choosen were, and as a result assumed the choosen got one too. But at the same time it could be a misread but i also belive that hohums argument and adhomen are almost like panick at being cought, i will have to remain netural on both sides for now.

3.I dont get how it could work for him, only scum could gaurantee town, and valid town claims usualy mean said roll is dead.

Hohum may have done many things, but adhom is not one of them.

Don't fence sit. If you believe I got a PM stating who the chosen were then it follows I MUST be scum regardless of what hohum posted. Don't just rehash the possibilities of the arguments from the last few pages. In fact all 3 of your answers here are rehashing content from the last few days.

[Zorblag]

OK hohum, Troll took a look over your case and did a reread of Sajin. Troll no be convinced by what you be saying there. Here be a couple problems with what Troll sees:

Sajin's either no understood that the chosen would get confirmations or him didn't. Troll thinks that him really didn't understand. Him either be particularly clever and pulled off a believable fake failure to know what was going on well over the course of his first 6 posts or him really didn't understand how the game mechanic works. Quite frankly Troll no thinks that Sajin be that clever (no offense intended Sajin.) As Troll said before, if him was mistaken then the strength of his plan is pro-town enough to easily counter any minor scum tell that came from not understanding the rules completely.

Sajin voted for hohum not at random but because him had reason to think that hohum no was the chosen. Avoiding lynching the chosen be a key part of this game. hohum can call it OMGUS if him wants but it be a viable early vote based on the information him had access to from everything Troll can see.

After that Troll sees a battle of egos between Sajin and hohum rather than great arguments from either regarding the other's play.

Troll feels that both hohum and Sajin have done a poor job of looking at eachother's play objectively. Sajin has been focused on hohum and qwints for most of the game. These be the two that have been the most suspicious of Sajin. Sajin should take a step back and see what everyone else is doing to a greater degree than him has.

hohum latched onto what him thinks was a scum tell from Sajin at the start and has been pounding at him since then (Troll no will claim Sajin has been an exclusive target but hohum has been after him since the start of the game.) hohum seems to be going out of his way to see the worst in Sajin's responses and motive.

@Zorblag: I'm not opposed to an MM lynch but it isn't going to happen today. I'd rather lynch sajin (scum) than go with a "safe" lynch. Safe lynches involve a fair amount of scum gaming, which isn't good. For now I'm content to keep MM talking in order to get a better read on her.

Keeping MiteyMouse around for a better read be likely to be unproductive given what Troll knows of her play but in any case, Troll thinks that a MiteyMouse lynch be more likely to happen today than a Sajin lynch. Troll thinks that MiteyMouse has a decent chance of being scum in addition to a low chance of being a chosen. Troll no be set on it but it be much more than just a safe lynch.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Sajin]

*looks at post above*

I am working on it troll!

[Papa Zito]

Okay hohum, so I've reviewed everything and it looks like the meat of your case is based on the assumption that Sajin couldn't have the townie role PM since the scum PM didn't mention that the Chosen didn't know that they're Chosen. (whew) My issue here is the fact that this is an open setup, meaning the scum have full access to our townie PMs. To me, it makes it much more likely that Sajin misunderstood vs. never saw the information posted.

Reviewing your other points (OMGUS, random lynching) don't jive at all with what I see posted. Sajin gives reasoning for his countervote, which means it's not OMGUS, and I don't see where he advocated random lynches. So I'm not buying these points either.

One last point.

We had a perfect opportunity there. There was a misconception about the rules. I made the same one.

Here Scien admits that he had the same confusion over the Chosen mechanic as Sajin alleges he had. However, this admission goes by without any comment while you continue to slam Sajin over the same thing over and over. Why?

unvote

[Zorblag]

Why the unvote Papa Zito? Troll no sees any indication that there be a change in your opinion about qwints.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[hohum]

I don't mind all this business about prodding cojin awake and asking him questions designed to get him to contribute but I don't like how sajin is trying to influence cojin's opinion over and argument that he's actually a part of. I'm happy to sit on the sidelines and allow the town to steer cojin towards forming his own opinion.