/in-vitational 2 - Chosen, Karaoke - Game over! before 830


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Post Post #250 (ISO) » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:19 pm

Post by Papa Zito »

hohum wrote:I can't help it here everyone would rather argue with me than talk to me.
Now you're the victim?

Argh, okay, let's start over.

You'll have to forgive me for leaving Road to Rome too fast, but I've gotten lost in the sandstorm and need to get my bearings again. Can you please post a clear, concise case (alliteration!) in a single post for me?
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Post Post #251 (ISO) » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:13 pm

Post by hohum »

I'll gladly put together a PBPA, because YOU requested it (not because sajin requested it).

The only thing is, you need to stop with the bullshit PZ. You got done telling me not even a full page ago how noisy I am and now you WANT me to continue posting.
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Post Post #252 (ISO) » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:33 pm

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hohum wrote:I'll gladly put together a PBPA, because YOU requested it (not because sajin requested it).

The only thing is, you need to stop with the bullshit PZ. You got done telling me not even a full page ago how noisy I am and now you WANT me to continue posting.
I'm requesting content, not noise. i.e. "Sajin is obvscum because of X, Y, Z" not "u guyz r tardz"
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Post Post #253 (ISO) » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:37 pm

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Papa Zito wrote:
hohum wrote:I'll gladly put together a PBPA, because YOU requested it (not because sajin requested it).

The only thing is, you need to stop with the bullshit PZ. You got done telling me not even a full page ago how noisy I am and now you WANT me to continue posting.
I'm requesting content, not noise. i.e. "Sajin is obvscum because of X, Y, Z" not "u guyz r tardz"
Fine, I'm putting together the PBPA; but don't get your panties in a twist again later once you revert back to your chainsaw defending of sajin and I call you on it.
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Post Post #254 (ISO) » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:01 pm

Post by Incognito »

Vote Count #8 of Day 1


hohum (2) <-~ MiteyMouse, Sajin
qwints (2) <-~ Nikanor, Papa Zito
Cojin (1) <-~ qwints
Sajin (1) <-~ hohum

Not voting (3) <-~ Cojin, Zorblag, Scien

With 9 living, 5 will do it.

[ooc][color=black]patrickgower2006 (8:12:03 PM): all beer tastes same to me
patrickgower2006 (8:12:07 PM): like dish water
If you see Patrick drinking dish water, please try and stop him. Friends don't let friends drink dish water.[/color][/ooc]
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Post Post #255 (ISO) » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:11 pm

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OK, let's do this by person Troll thinks.

Cojin: You do need to be able to come up with opinions even if you think the game is largely noise rather than signal. Complaining about it doesn't help with anything. Actually the fact that you've done as little as you have to provide useful content and have gotten as little attention as you have be of some use. Of more use would be engagement in the game. Troll needs more information from you to come up with anything meaningful.

hohum: Him has managed to get into it with most in the game at this point. Later on that might be useful (especially in terms of the reactions from others but also just where him be choosing to focus his attention) but for now it makes for irritating reading. Framing the interactions as the fault of everyone else be unsurprising but not particularly helpful in Troll's opinion. What do be helpful be the reactions we be getting from others Troll be waiting to see what him comes up with regarding Sajin. Troll could go either way as far as hohum being scum but Troll thinks there would have been harder attacks against him if him were a chosen by now.

MiteyMouse: You've seen Papa Zito play as scum. If him be playing differently than you've ever seen him play before why should that be a scum tell for you rather than a town tell? If you've only got one other than yourself who you think is likely town (and it do be clear who it is based on what you've said) why is it that you're saying that you're finding more town tells than normal this game. Just thinking that one other be town no strikes Troll as remarkable at all. Your failure to realize that we can win this game as town if we don't kill scum but keep both chosen alive be concerning to Troll given the experience Troll knows you have with the chosen dynamic. Right now Troll finds MiteyMouse scummier than average.

Nikanor: Troll finds surprisingly little to say to you. It be a bit odd that Nikanor says we should be careful with votes in this game after having already voted for three people (two of them in his first two posts) and later on the attention him has given to various people might be interesting but Troll no has any particularly strong opinions.

Papa Zito: For starters, the idea that him be tearing down wagons be a bit odd as Troll be pretty sure it was Troll who unvoted Sajin before Papa Zito did. Calling him quite probably fails to take into account the post rate of this game but him do be saying a bit less than might be expected. After Troll said that him had been flighty his vote has stayed on qwints (Troll no be asserting a causal relationship here) which Troll supposes Troll thinks be most likely due to the defending as a town tell issue? Troll no particularly has a scum read on him but there be enough minor attention from various places directed towards him that Troll thinks him has some chance of being a chosen.

qwints: The attack on Sajin when him came in strikes Troll as a bad sign given the discussion that had already taken place. Troll seems to think from reading through games that qwints has some experience with Cojin. Does that be correct? If so it be a bit surprising that the active lurking be the biggest thing that qwints be latching onto so far as it seems to be somewhat characteristic of his play in other games as well. It no be good play by any means but it also no makes Cojin a particularly good lynch on it's own (or even with the relatively weak contradiction thrown in.) There be a couple connections between qwints and hohum coming from both directions which be interesting. Troll would be pretty surprised if both were scum but doesn't have much trouble with seeing one trying to buddy up with the other (and this could go either way.)

Scien: For one as concerned about the voting with the mechanic we be using in this game Scien no has impressed Troll much at all with the two votes him has cast. Both feel as though them be reactionary rather than based on particularly strong reasons. Troll no be sure whether the quick unvotes make them better or worse in Troll's assessment but it does add to what Troll sees as the tentative nature of Scien's play. Actually, on the whole Troll thinks that Scien seems to be focused on the structure of the game and the play more than the players. Troll might normally think that was scummy but in this setup (and given what Troll knows of how Scien plays as scum) Troll leans away from that.

Of all the players at this time Troll thinks that MiteyMouse be the safest lynch. She be the one that be the best combination of possible scum and probably not chosen from what Troll sees of the interactions we have to work with.

Vote: MiteyMouse


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Post Post #256 (ISO) » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:40 pm

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Troll: One point pooh would like to make. Pooh no attack troll because pooh see troll's unvote simply as a desire to go and scumhunt elsewhere. Pooh see PZ-scum's unvote as same if PZ not go on offensive over sajin's wagon.
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Post Post #257 (ISO) » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:46 pm

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hohum wrote:Troll: One point pooh would like to make. Pooh no attack troll because pooh see troll's unvote simply as a desire to go and scumhunt elsewhere. Pooh see PZ-scum's unvote as same if PZ not go on offensive over sajin's wagon.
So then what did hohum make of Troll's later post saying that Sajin most likely be town?

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Post Post #258 (ISO) » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:49 pm

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Zorblag wrote:
hohum wrote:Troll: One point pooh would like to make. Pooh no attack troll because pooh see troll's unvote simply as a desire to go and scumhunt elsewhere. Pooh see PZ-scum's unvote as same if PZ not go on offensive over sajin's wagon.
So then what did hohum make of Troll's later post saying that Sajin most likely be town?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh
Pooh disagrees.
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Post Post #259 (ISO) » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:53 pm

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Yes, Troll gathers that. Troll be waiting to see your current reasons why you think Sajin be scum. Troll was mostly asking to see if hohum thought that Troll was attempting to prevent wagons on Sajin with Troll's later post as that be something hohum thinks Papa Zito be doing.

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Post Post #260 (ISO) » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:59 pm

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Zorblag: You're giving papa zito the same leeway I'm giving qwints. I get it. The difference between the way you handled the sajin situation and the way PZ handled it is a stark contrast. You simply said what you needed to say and you moved on. That was the proper way to handle it. What PZ did was different. He lead into the discussion with a vote on me based on my read on sajin. Not only that he continues to this page to cast suspicion doubt on anyone who has anything even remotely negative to say about Sajin.

Troll may not agree with pooh but troll at least have common courtesy to allow others to scum hunt and/or dig their own graves.

PZ took the low road.
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Post Post #261 (ISO) » Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:56 pm

Post by Papa Zito »

hohum wrote:Not only that he continues to this page to cast suspicion doubt on anyone who has anything even remotely negative to say about Sajin.
I'm asking for a case and you continue to rant about this. Silly old bear.
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Post Post #262 (ISO) » Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:59 pm

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Papa Zito wrote:
hohum wrote:Not only that he continues to this page to cast suspicion doubt on anyone who has anything even remotely negative to say about Sajin.
I'm asking for a case and you continue to rant about this. Silly old bear.
I'll get you your case tonight or tomorrow. Chill.

In the mean time I'll rant about what ever I want, scum.
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Post Post #263 (ISO) » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:36 am

Post by qwints »

I've never played with Cojin, but the Zorblag's description of him seems to be correct. My vote will stay, however, until he comes up with an adequate explanation for teh contradiction.

I'm also interested in seeing the PBPA hohum has promised.
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Post Post #264 (ISO) » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:48 am

Post by Papa Zito »

Avatar changes make me dizzy.
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Post Post #265 (ISO) » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:07 am

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PZ wrote: Avatar changes make me dizzy.
Sorry. I do sort of miss pooh but I need to use this one for at least a week, then I'm likely going to switch back.

The whole sajin situation

In sajin's very first post he's pushing for a mass claim. There are no power roles alive (other than the chosen) in this setup so claiming at any point serves only to generate useless banter.

The fact that he was unaware that the chosen in fact does not know as such indicates that may not have received a townie role PM. I still contest that this is more of a scum tell than everyone seems to think it is and it was worth discussing. Certainly any scum tell (no matter how minor) on page one is worthy of a vote.

He then responded (post 19) eventually with an OMGUS under guise of supporting the idea of a random lynch.

He even later stated that he can see how his early posts could be interpreted as a scum tell (post 41) but attempts to reason that latching on to early scum tells is in of itself a scum tell (post 41, my response in 61, his in 62). The notion that I dare question him over a possible scum slip is anti-scum hunting (quite a large scum tell) at best, and downright ludicrous at worst.

He would also rather argue semantics over the definition of the term OMGUS than acknowledge he's being super over-defensive (48, 57, ).

WIFOM and a little bit of scum gaming in 50.

At this point his activity level drops off of a cliff before he reappears in the thread in order to go on a strawman rampage.

General observations about his behavior:

1) He'd rather lynch randomly than do any scum hunting whatsoever I called him on this early on and he completely failed to even acknowledge that fact.

2) He continually distorts qwints' and my own (and everyone else's) positions on various matters.

3) He talks about game mechanics from time to time in order to appear helpful but hasn't really made any effort to do any real scum hunting of his own.

4) Virtually every other response to me since about page 4 has been "I don't see your case, you're full of shit" even though I have sitting here discussing it with him and others since, oh, page 1 or so.


I haven't decided who is likely sajin's scum partner but right now PZ and MM are my top suspects.
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Post Post #266 (ISO) » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:18 am

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So I stand by my vote: more sajin lynching, please.
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Post Post #267 (ISO) » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:24 am

Post by hohum »

Also one more thing (sorry for the continual multi-posting, I'll make a better effort to keep it to a minimum from now on)
qwints wrote: Hohum, you should re-think the significance of defending in this game given the chosen mechanic. Being defended may actually be a town tell
I disagree with you on this one. Keep in mind that the scum team MUST lynch one of the two chosen in order to satisfy their win condition. This is more of an incentive for the scum team to actively push a wagon. This also means that one or both of them potentially become a lightning rod if they can successfully get one of the chosen lynched.

If we happen to get lucky on D1 and nail scum (like sajin) because of a scum slip (like asking for a claim because he didn't get a town PM and didn't understand the chosen mechanic) then there's only one scum left. Not good if that scum has to end up being the lone wagon pusher.

Pushing a chosen wagon is virtually a sacrifice fly (to use a baseball analogy).

Based on this notion I contend that early on in the game the scum team have lots of incentive to keep one another alive.
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Post Post #268 (ISO) » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:02 am

Post by hohum »

@MM: I answered PZ's question, now you should answer mine. Who's your 2nd town suspect and why?
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Post Post #269 (ISO) » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:14 am

Post by MiteyMouse »

I'll answer your's now...but, you need to conform to the same rules that you are expecting us to play by...fair?

Sajin...this is simply because (as I already said) I do not always read my full PMs. I look for the role and alignment and as long as it's a familiar role, I tend not to analyze it word for word. There is a pretty unique dynamic in this game and one who is not familiar with it (or even those that are as demonstrated by my lack of full understanding) could get confused. Mostly, I feel his pain as, I have been called out for not fully understanding or reading PMs.

Now, I believe that I owe you all an appology. I let my emotions get the best of me yesterday and for that I'm sorry. Hohum, you just really got under my skin and I should have stepped back before posting.
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Post Post #270 (ISO) » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:25 am

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MiteyMouse wrote:I'll answer your's now...but, you need to conform to the same rules that you are expecting us to play by...fair?

Sajin...this is simply because (as I already said) I do not always read my full PMs. I look for the role and alignment and as long as it's a familiar role, I tend not to analyze it word for word. There is a pretty unique dynamic in this game and one who is not familiar with it (or even those that are as demonstrated by my lack of full understanding) could get confused. Mostly, I feel his pain as, I have been called out for not fully understanding or reading PMs.

Now, I believe that I owe you all an appology. I let my emotions get the best of me yesterday and for that I'm sorry. Hohum, you just really got under my skin and I should have stepped back before posting.
I think you don't bother to pay attention to more than just role PMs because you've clearly missed a lot:
hohum wrote:There's a difference between rehashing an entire case on someone and answering a simple question.
There's also a really good reason I chose to ignore PZ's request initially. It helped me better my read on him. You on the other hand are refusing to be cooperative just to spite me or teach me some sort of lesson. That's very unproductive.

You also obviously missed this exchange as well:
hohum wrote:
Sajin wrote:OMGUS would be me voting troll, he was the first voter. I was confused I agree.


I assumed I was NOT told when I got my PM and that I was told in the duration of the mods 5th post when he stated chosen have now been selected.

I read my PMs carefully. I understood I could be chosen and did not know at the time I was sent the PM. I did not understand that I would never know.
If you read your PMs as carefully as you say then you didn't get a town role PM. It quite clearly states (all be it in karaoke-speak) that the chosen one is not know to the town.
@Zorblag: I'm not opposed to an MM lynch but it isn't going to happen today. I'd rather lynch sajin (scum) than go with a "safe" lynch. Safe lynches involve a fair amount of scum gaming, which isn't good. For now I'm content to keep MM talking in order to get a better read on her.
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Post Post #271 (ISO) » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:34 am

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You know Hohum, you could have just said that you had a reason for not answering the questions posed to you as opposed to saying "go reread the last 5 pages". Then calling someone out for doing the exact thing that you did is not productive for the Town. You cannot expect me to accept that you did it and then roll over when you call my for actions that you made as well. Perhaps I was looking to get a better read from you as well.

Now, you and I can keep going over this and get everyone in this thread really pissed at us or you can agree to accept that if you are going to do something then you'd better be ok with someone else doing the same thing...
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Post Post #272 (ISO) » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:35 am

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@MM: Also the lack of acknowledgement of zorblag's vote on you is noted.
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Post Post #273 (ISO) » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:37 am

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MiteyMouse wrote:You know Hohum, you could have just said that you had a reason for not answering the questions posed to you as opposed to saying "go reread the last 5 pages". Then calling someone out for doing the exact thing that you did is not productive for the Town. You cannot expect me to accept that you did it and then roll over when you call my for actions that you made as well. Perhaps I was looking to get a better read from you as well.

Now, you and I can keep going over this and get everyone in this thread really pissed at us or you can agree to accept that if you are going to do something then you'd better be ok with someone else doing the same thing...
If I have to explain my actions to you every step of the way it basically moots any pressure that I'm able to generate on people when I have 4 of you guys lining up against me.

You're not the thread mommy, I don't report to you.
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Post Post #274 (ISO) » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:39 am

Post by MiteyMouse »

So then suck it up and realize that I don't have to report my actions to you either...You are making me CRAZY!!!!
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