/in-vitational 2 - Chosen, Karaoke - Game over! before 830

[Nikanor]

Are you serious Cojin? Have you even read the thread at all? If you want a more specific question, what do you think of Sajin's alignment at this point?

[Scien]

I am perfectly calm, and I think my posts will support that. Even to you when you read them later.

I had to drop to the flame level to make you see that at the moment however.

However I still hold that your intentional flaming is designed for one reason. To

provoke

misplays from people.

Provoking is not a good tactic. Yes scum can be provoked into misplays. However townies can also be provoked into misplays that you can capitalize on as well.

Since its a two way street, I believe that it is a tactic that is most successfully pulled as scum. A townie using it could not be as sure that the provoked response was indeed a scum tell. However a scummer can

always

capitalize on misplays derived from this tactic of yours.

As before your play style is going to scream scum to me. This is not based on emotion as you seem to be claiming, but on the observations I have posted above. My FOS still stands at the moment, although now not due to a non-answered question.

Sorry that you believe that this is illogical. However since it is not so to me, my complaints stand.

[hohum]

However I still hold that your intentional flaming is designed for one reason. To provoke misplays from people.

Provoking is not a good tactic. Yes scum can be provoked into misplays. However townies can also be provoked into misplays that you can capitalize on as well.

I'm going to try this one more time. After this, the subject NEEDS to be dropped. Arguments get us nowhere.

The 2nd paragraph in that quote is key. Provoking is an excellent tool (as you pointed out) to get ANYONE to drop scum tells. You need to be able to tell the difference though between a nervous/inexperienced townie and scum, though. You'll learn how to do that with some more experience.

Approaching the game with caution gives too much room for error.

You seriously need to give it a rest now. You've made your point, and I'm not going to stop voting or telling people what's on my mind just because you have a fragile ego.

[Scien]

This has nothing to do with my ego. It has everything to do with what you 'experienced' person can do with this tactic.

It can be

far

more utilized in a scum position than a townie one. I see that you will fail to acknowledge this.

I never said provoking was an 'excellent' tool. I said it was a tool designed to produce misplays. Misplays are inherently not neither pro-town or pro-scum, and the only person that can discern the difference with any degree of certainty is scum. This is even applicable to you since you admit that everyone around you is 'nervous/inexperienced' and that's the way that you 'experienced' people can make use of your tactic.

I never claimed that you should stop voting, or telling people what is on your mind. I would like to see where you say I have.

You are claiming that I am approaching this with too much caution? You are claiming that I am emotional when I am giving you logical reasons for my concerns? You still attempt to provoke me after you state that currently you don't suspect me of yet?

Very well,

Vote: Hohum

[hohum]

*sigh* I give up. You're a tool.

[hohum]

nice OMGUS BTW.

[Scien]

Don't you have to vote me or suspect me before I can OMGUS vote you? Strange.

[hohum]

Don't you have to vote me or suspect me before I can OMGUS vote you? Strange.

You basically just voted me for what amounts to a theory dispute. You might as well be sticking your middle finger up at me.

OMGUS doesn't necessarily need to be in the context of a vote.

[hohum]

EBWOP: doesn't necessarily need to be in the context of a vote, in response to a vote.

[Scien]

I disagree that it is a theory dispute. I believe you tactic is easily a pro-scum one. The fact that you are using it suggests you have a pro-scum role. I have mentioned this and your main defenses were trying to claim that I am emotional and that it is not a pro-scum as I think, but do not elaborate on the latter.

My vote is to pressure you to provide a better defense. One that is not just trying to bully me around emotionally, since I am not trying to do the same to you at the moment.

If it helps you out a bit, I respond more favorably to logic. I respond less favorably to "you suck", "you are wrong", and "you need to go back to newbie games". Well unless you can back those claims up with logic.

[hohum]

There's no logic in this dude. It's a personal OPINION.

Also, I can back my play with meta. I catch scum doing this.

[hohum]

Scien: Go read this game:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/watched_topics.php

Scum was caught on page 1, using some of the tactics I employ on a regular basis. I had to drag the town kicking and screaming into BC's lynch.

[hohum]

EBWOP: Wrong link. Sorry.

this game: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 63&start=0

[Scien]

You already said that you also play this way

as

scum. I can't tell the difference.

However I do know that this tactic would benefit a scum player more than a town player.

---

As of

any

first hand meta I have on you, you have never made such a non-baiting post as above. So this is odd.

I was wrong in our last game. So... meh.

Unvote

But IGMEOY.

[Papa Zito]

So much love in this thread.

I'm looking forward to qwint's Sajin analysis.

Cojin, scumlist please.

[qwints]

Cojin has yet to actually comment on another player's scumminess. His iso is pretty much blank right now.He also has partially contradicted himself by noting the importance of voting patterns then questioning why people not voting is a bad idea.

unvote, vote: Cojin

[Incognito]

Vote Count #5 of Day 1

hohum (2) <-~ MiteyMouse, Sajin
qwints (2) <-~ Nikanor, Papa Zito
Nikanor (1) <-~ hohum
Cojin (1) <-~ qwints

Not voting (3) <-~ Cojin, Zorblag, Scien

With 9 living, 5 will do it.

Friday, August 21st at 9 P.M. EDT.

[Nikanor]

Nice jump there, qwints. Can we still expect that analysis today?

[MiteyMouse]

Wow...I see the trick to keeping people active here is Hohum...AKA Blabbermouth...hehehe!

I reread the whole Sajin thing and really thinks he comes out looking Town in it. I feel his pain, as I'm not one to read and analyze my own PM. I look for the role and then move on.

I'm finding this game easier to pick out who is more likely Town than Scum.

Hohum is far louder than I've seen him play in a game with me and Papa is far quieter.

More to come...just want to look over things a bit more.

[qwints]

[A]So qwints wants to vote me based on a read then proposes a "random" lynch. Contradictory much?

[qwints: Sajin should have claimed if he thought town had forced win]

Why would I claim something in my initial post that would hurt us unless we all went through with the plan? Also,

this is a strawman argument at best and misrepresentation at worst. Your setting up the statement of forced-town win to explain why I did not act a certain way.

[A] - I clearly stated that random lynching might be useful in some circumstances. I never proposed always random lynching (and explained why it wouldn't work.)

- Sajin had a strategy resulting in a forced win. [See his iso 1] That strategy required all town to truthfully claim. [Remember he assumed chosen knew they were chosen.] I asked why he delayed claiming if he believed he had a forced win. Not a strawmen. His response that he was being cautious is a defense to a legitimate question.

Fully random lynching is not a good option

because lynching one chosen hurts us much more than lynching one scum helps us

. But in limited situations, such as a D3 w/ both chosen still alive and 1 scum dead, it could prove useful.

No. [C]Nailing one scum is worth more than not nailing chosen (vanilla town lynch).

[C] You're implying I disagreed with this statement. I don't, and it's obviously true. That doesn't change the fact that lynching chosen hurts more than lynching scum helps. (Both of which have equal probability at the moment)

Then why are you and the person you requested prodding on coming off the most scummy?

Implying an association between two players because one asked that the other be prodded is simply deranged, and discourages pro-town play (encouraging activity.)


Cojin's active lurking remains my main target, but Sajin remains suspicious.

[Scien]

A few questions for Qwints:

Being defended may actually be a town tell.

Would you mind explaining how so?

That doesn't change the fact that lynching chosen hurts more than lynching scum helps. (Both of which have equal probability at the moment)

Eh, I think that others would disagree with you there based on what we have been talking about up till now. You truly believe that hitting chosen is worse than the benefit of lynching scum?

As for the probability thing, only if we completely ignore information, and pick someone at random. That's the only way the probabilities work out like you guys expect them to in textbook form.

[qwints]

I would mind explaining why being defended is a town tell.

Yes, hitting chosen is worse than lynching scum. (NK-immune, endgame-winning townies are surprisingly useful.

[Scien]

And for Mitey while I am here:

[A] I'm finding this game easier to pick out who is more likely Town than Scum.

Hohum is far louder than I've seen him play in a game with me and Papa is far quieter.

[C] More to come...just want to look over things a bit more.

[A] Oh? Why do you think this is?

Hohum in my mind is about the same as the game I played him in. Except he backed off from a fight (in his own way). That's something he didn't do there. I find it odd, but just merely odd at the moment.

I totally agree with you on PapaZ though. I find the quietness

very

odd.

[C] Cool! Can't wait.

[Scien]

I would mind explaining why being defended is a town tell.

Well thats unfortunate because there is no way it could be a town tell.

If someone is defending someone it means

nothing

about the role of the person being defended.

Either the defending person is pro-town and has no information about the person he is defending, or the defending person is scum, and could equally likely be defending a chosen, townie, or scum. There is no way to discern that knowledge from the mere act of someone being defended.

I believe your suggestion is illogical at best and that your unwillingness to explain your 'beliefs' unhelpful at best. You think I am wrong?

[MiteyMouse]

And for Mitey while I am here:

[A] I'm finding this game easier to pick out who is more likely Town than Scum.

Hohum is far louder than I've seen him play in a game with me and Papa is far quieter.

[C] More to come...just want to look over things a bit more.

[A] Oh? Why do you think this is?

Hohum in my mind is about the same as the game I played him in. Except he backed off from a fight (in his own way). That's something he didn't do there. I find it odd, but just merely odd at the moment.

I totally agree with you on PapaZ though. I find the quietness

very

odd.

[C] Cool! Can't wait.

A) people seem to be dropping more things that make me believe that they are Town than dropping things that make me think that they could be Scum.

B) See, I know he can be agressive (I checked his meta...hehehe) but, he has never played like this in games that I played with him. That being said, last game we were both players in was almost 6 months ago.

C) Still coming.