MtG: Parallel Universe Mafia (Tar's subgame): Game Over

[Kinetic]

Interesting group of players indeed.

btw /confirm

[Kinetic]

Vote: Kairyuu

Because he is scum. Yup

[Kinetic]

vote: mastin

for not confirming

hey kinetic, did you get a real role pm this time around?

rofl, yes

God that MSM3 Role PM was horrible. And then being Death Millered... >> You almost won that game anyway sir. I was cheering for you.

[Kinetic]

Unvote;Vote:Vino

For posting in another subgame o.O.

[Kinetic]

On that note, does anyone have any information that indicates that the attack/defense numbers on our role PMs actually do anything? I don't need to know anything about your role PM, just about the numbers and if they have any use.

Judging purely from the "Vanilla Townie" PM that was posted I doubt it.

I'm for ignoring Benmage for now, but reserve the right to re-examine my decision at a later time.

@Benmage

: Do you additionally have a Survivor Win Condition or do you ONLY win by re-uniting with your partner?

I'll explain more in a bit.

Just so everyone knows, since I've done it before I'm contemplating if some sort of Mass Claim might break this game like other Tar games. From being on both sides of Tar's mind set (playing in B5/MSM3, backup-modding Haruhi) I know that he plants a few red herrings and punisher roles if this is not done carefully.

That being said, I'm going to continue to examine my own role, and any other additional information we receive to see if some sort of claim might help us.

Particularly I'm wondering if players with the ability to effect another game, or simply if someone is able to move from game-to-game or move others would be a role we'd want in the open.

Again, just speculating at this time, some more talking on these points would be helpful to me.

[Kinetic]

@Benmage

: Do you additionally have a Survivor Win Condition or do you ONLY win by re-uniting with your partner?

I only win by being re-united with my partner. Once that juncture is reached we are removed instantly.

Ok, in that case Benmage it is in YOUR best interests to stay alive as long as possible, am I correct in assuming that?

For those who are not along my thought process right now, what this means is that Benmage is effectively a TOWN-leading survivor.

In LyLo, Benmage will vote for scum, not town, because he wants the game to last longer in order to fulfill his win condition.

However, this also means in LyLo we're in a BAD situation if he decides to leave suddenly.

So, while I would like to keep Benmage in our game longer (effectively keeping us farther away from LyLo), if someone can remove him or DDD from the equation, sooner is better than later.

If it starts coming down to LyLo, we cannot afford to lose Benmage, and at that point Benmage you will HAVE to scum hunt and help the town. I'm pretty sure if the scum win you'll lose, but I'm not so sure if the town win this subgame if you'll lose. The way I'm thinking is if the town "win", you can still be pulled into DDD's game, am I correct about that?

Actually... from reading the Town WC again, I don't believe town can win until Benmage is killed or removed. Thus, if we remove all the scum, we can effectively No-Lynch until Benmage can be removed and win himself.

So, this is my thoughts: I wouldn't like Benmage removed RIGHT away, (I'd like to at least make sure he is OK with the plan in motion of him assisting the town if the game gets low, say to 6-7 players), but effectively if we can remove him the equivalent of Night 2 that would be best.

And if Benmage CANNOT be removed by Night 2, he must be willing to scum hunt and play toward the betterment of the town. I'm assuming the scum WC doesn't require all other WCs to be effectively null like the Town one does.

[Kinetic]

One thing to note: If there are multiple players who can swap players in games, we don't want DDD and Brnmage BOTH to be swapped, so if we decide to do this we need to also decide which game will "go first" and if nothing happens to let the other game "try".

[Kinetic]

Lets say there is 1-5 left in our game. And we are offered a chance to exchange with a game in lylo. We should exchange the most protown player in our game with the scummiest in theirs. But if we can just add a player to their game and both of these are 1-5.

Did you read my post?

I addressed this quite succinctly.

Before I answer any recent questions or posts lets just get on with the show:

First:
I am Factionless.
--In addition when another faction wins their win condition. I don’t lose. I don’t know what that entails but I surmise I’m moved to a different sub game.
2. Where the “townie” thing is in the sample role pm. Mine says Star-Crossed Lover.
3. I am colorless. (for what its worth)

Theory for 1:
If town kill all scum, i.e. fulfilling their WC, they win. But I don’t lose.(not sure what happens to me)
If scum is majority or 50% during day or whatever their WC is. They win. But again i don't lose. Also they don’t need to add me into the 50% equation. So don’t count me when you’re doing math for lylo.

I don’t exist in your win condition.

(for town too) Because I am not a faction.

So lylo with 1 scum alive is 4 players assuming I’m one of them…not 3.

If this is all true then I withdraw my plan.

As far as I'm concerned we can completely ignore Benmage or lynch him, those are the best "townie" options. There is 0 benefit to the town from helping him out and there is 0 penalty if we do nothing, save how he votes. Thus, if he wants to stay alive and maybe someone will fell nice, he needs to act in the best interests of the town, otherwise, its the noose for him.

Thus, if someone with a swapping power wants to be nice and let Benmage win, go ahead, but I don't feel we need to worry about it.

[Kinetic]

Pyro is totally scum. Tar's SK's and Mafia are the typical non recruitable roles if Mind Screw 3 is any guide. I'm happy with my vote for now.

Sidenote: Expect me to be less than fully active in this game for a few more days. Another game I'm in is coming down to deadline in under 24 hours and requires my attention.

I agree with this, but I also believe that Tar is the type of mod to throw and "Unrecruitable Townie" into a game with no recruiting factions.

Something about Pyro is eating at me, he is acting scummy, but there is something else.

Note about Benmage and DDD, the way that it is being handled in both games is remarkably different. In this game I have no problems letting Benmage slide for the time being, but in the other games multiple players have come out against any sort of sliding. Perhaps its is that what Benmage has revealed is greater than DDD and if the other games doesn't have that knowledge they can't draw the same conclusion, but it is something to notice.

[Kinetic]

Just so everyone knows, since I've done it before I'm contemplating if some sort of Mass Claim might break this game like other Tar games.

Particularly I'm wondering if players with the ability to effect another game, or simply if someone is able to move from game-to-game or move others would be a role we'd want in the open.

Reinforcement.

Got it, you quoted my post with links, but didn't really do anything but add in some scummy keywords but not actually any reason WHY it would be scummy.

On the charge of rolefishing: See Tar's B5, a highly appropriate game for both my Meta and Tar's Meta where a mass claim quite literally broke the game.

It would be irresponsible of both me and everyone else to not at least give the thought a once over and maybe discuss what could be claimed and maybe what shouldn't be claimed. I find it much more scummy for people who just refuse to talk about something because it is one of those dreaded keywords (ooo, rolefishing... -.-;) instead of giving reasons why.

With your next post if you could add some opinions it would be appreciated.

BTW, happy birthday Kinetic. I think I have no problem lynching scum in our game and letting the other games do whatever they like. Benmage has been straight-forward and honest with us and so far there is nothing questionable about his claim.

TY

Something about Pyro is eating at me, he is acting scummy, but there is something else.

Fencesitting means vote stays.
Also, Pyro's a Easy Lynch (VI).
------
Happy S/B-Days.

Fence sitting? I didn't vote, its obvious that I'm on the side of the fence that isn't willing to lynch him yet. Please stop the keyword-hunting, and start with the scum hunting.

[Kinetic]

@Mastin: Just a general note for you, Mastin: Kinetic's game breaking skills are not to be mocked. He is extremely effective (I forget exactly how he used it in MS3, but he effectivly won the game for his faction in Tar's B5 game).

Bleh, I got a blank role PM on Day One of MSM3, and didn't get my role until Day 3, which was a town-aligned Chairmen Mao (Who was either scum or neutral in the other games), and then I was (through a combination of sticky votes and scum pushing) quick-lynched, and then death millered without knowing about it.

Yea....

I couldn't break MSM3 because I had no information and virtually no idea what was going on. lol

[Kinetic]

Pyro, curious, who do you think is most likely to be scum pushing your wagon (if you are town).

[Kinetic]

*blink*

[Kinetic]

Based on what I know about Yos, I think he's scum in FL's game.

[Kinetic]

Based on what I know about Yos, I think he's scum in FL's game.

A statement with no supporting evidence!

Its a gut feeling, but since it really doesn't effect this game, I figured I'd say something instead of painstakingly checking it out.

[Kinetic]

This is the thing with Yos, that I've noticed, when he is scum and the scum team is doing well he coasts, but when the scum team is behind he is very aggressive in certain areas.

This is the type of move I'd see him make when he's scum and feels that the alliance could threaten the scum team.

That being said, this could also be a move he might make as town if he feels that the scum could take advantage of the alliance.

My guy says he's scum, but I suppose there could be other explanations for what he is doing.

[Kinetic]

My bet is that they're doing the same thing Tar does normally:

Some players are sometimes "hidden" in his games, however to avoid giving them away Tar will let you vote for anything. So while some things may happen, don't expect just because the votes are there in another game that anything will happen.

[Kinetic]

Hidden players? How is that supposed to work?

They are normally reserved for Mind Screw or Bastard Mod games, of which this isn't one, but generally the player was ont he sign up list (and then removed), and their name isn't on the player list during the game. Sometimes Tar specifically contacts someone to be the hidden player, sometimes they are mod-killed with out consequence (i.e. it doesn't end the day) and then snuck back in.

It all depends on the mood.

I feel we have under a 5% chance there is a hidden player in this or any of the Parallel games, at least currently. Look for suspicious deaths (like veerus in MSM3) or people leaving a game and not entering another for the possibility of someone becoming hidden mid-way through the game.

[Kinetic]

I'm starting to wonder why players from both other games (Mufasa and Chen) are pushing for "other game lynches". I'm wondering if it is a scum ploy....

[Kinetic]

Note about Benmage and DDD, the way that it is being handled in both games is remarkably different. In this game I have no problems letting Benmage slide for the time being, but in the other games multiple players have come out against any sort of sliding. Perhaps its is that what Benmage has revealed is greater than DDD and if the other games doesn't have that knowledge they can't draw the same conclusion, but it is something to notice.

They can read our game, you know.
Kenetic seems to have inner knowledge of the game. How does anyone know wether the role (if there is one(which there very probably is)) switches or adds?

Really! OMG I didn't know that. (take palm, apply to forehead)

The point of that comment was to show that DDD is handling this whole situation a lot differently that Benmage, and the players in that game are reacted differently than we are to Benmage because of it.

If I had to choose, if all that is said is true, I'd believe DDD is the "scum mason" over Benmage.

As for my "inside knowledge", what are you talking about? Are you talking about some of the assumptions I've made, or my overall knowledge of mechanics and Tar games in general? Are you saying I've said I know that there is a switcher role (which I haven't)? I don't understand...

As for what I THINK, I think there is most likely a role of some sort that moves players to and from games. I never said that it "swaps players", but I suppose that could be a way such a role would work. The rules and a lot of the pre-information on the game said that some players might not be in the same game they started in. I'm pretty sure that is a blatant mod confirmation that such roles could exist.

[Kinetic]

What do you think of 285? And when you were

directing the swapper, should such a role exist, role

you did not say "I think"

I don't need to say "I think" every time I speculate. It is obvious to anyone with multiple brain cells (which may not include you) that my comments were meant to only be valid if such a role exists.

[Kinetic]

You were still directing the power role.

My direction was "if you feel like it, go ahead, if not, no big deal" and "we should decide to let one game go first (in case there are multiple of this role) and not have both do it simultaneously".

It was nothing like "The vig should kill Pyro because he's scum" or "The doc should protect Kinetic because he is town", which is what you seem to be implying.

You are trying to do is make my actions look scummy out of context by using keywords (just like Mastin), when in fact what I did was make logical deductions and voiced them.

For that,

FOS: Pyro

, or the equivalent once the day restarts again.

[Kinetic]

What do you think of 285?

I think you are pointing out again how you aren't reading and this was addressed earlier.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, keep in mind that this game was not fully designed by Tar so some of the usual assumptions may not apply even though I'm sure he had a hand in the design...

I agree, that's one of the reasons I'm not really trying to hard break this game, and most of my assumptions have merely been observations.

[Kinetic]

Kin, Pyro's town. I'm agreeing with him, and don't like you tying him to me.

Two issues here.

1) If he is town, then you should have no problem tying yourself to him.

2) I didn't tie you two together by way of I thought you were both scum, or similar alignment.

I mentioned you becase you've both taken the expedite route of noting certain "keywords" which sound scummy out of context but without actually explaining why in this case they would be scummy, or are even scummy in general.

You see, what you are doing is not scum hunting. It is the same as when someone makes an argument, and the other person picks their argument apart with "logical fallacies". Yes, technically the argument may have had some flaws, but when you magnify small parts of something, you miss the big picture and the actual message of the post, which is more important.

I'm starting to chafe at this collar you're trying to put on me. You've not actually posted anything that actually makes a case against me, but players like Pyro have stated they "like the case". All you've done is quoted some text and sprouted some keywords.

So, here is the question, and if you (or Pyro) can answer it, then you may actually be on the way to making a case:

Why, in this case and context, is said keyword indicative that I (or anyone else, if you wish to apply it to another case) am scum.

Until you can answer that question, any more keyword sprouting is merely posturing, and I'll be forced to believe you are scum merely trying to make a case out of cards.

[Kinetic]

Knew it >>

[Kinetic]

The Nicol Bolas role seemed a lot of fun and I'm sad I didn't get to play Oremore, however I could tell how incomplete it was. For anyone who doesn't know, my pregame consisted of having several of my abilities being errata'd to work correctly :p. In that it felt like a magic the gathering game very much so.