Mini 809 ~ Mafia ViPod (Game Over!)

[Sotty7]

Okay, I had some trouble re-reading the game as planned yesterday because the boards kept crapping out with the whole lack of memory thing, so I got frustrated and gave up. I have read the first day again and have time tomorrow to finish up the rest of the game. A couple of questions.

Why would I vote pesco? People still haven't really given me a good reason.

Well, my best reason would be if he thinks two people are both scum when it is extremely unlikely for them both to be scum. And/or ignoring other players.

After reading this I thought your vote was on Pesco X, but it wasn't, it was on PP. Why did you feel the need to answer this question about the Pesco wagon? To me, it's clear that forb is asking the people who are voting for pesco to bring a better case. This was a strange comment.

Did you find pesco suspicious at this point X?

---

Hero, did you read the game all the way though or did you just do some iso reads?

[Hero764]

Ok, Hero, I want to sum up your cases here into bullet points:

X

1) Bad vibes from you gut
2) He was on PP and Empking's lynch for what you feel to be bad reasons

EK

1) You think the one post you quoted has scum motivations
2) WIFOM that the Moriarty kill makes her look good, while making Image look bad
3) Bandwagoning
4) Possible hypocrisy on Emp wagon

Is this a fair summation of your points against both of your main suspects?

Close enough.

Also, what are your feelings on massclaim today? Should it happen? What do you think the order of claiming should be?

I dunno. I'm indifferent to it right now. What are the benefits of doing it(I've never been in a game with mass claiming)?

Hero, did you read the game all the way though or did you just do some iso reads?

I read it all the way through and then did iso reads on some people(mainly X and elvis).

[VP Baltar]

I dunno. I'm indifferent to it right now. What are the benefits of doing it(I've never been in a game with mass claiming)?

How many games have you played here?

[Hero764]

I've been in 10(including this one), but I replaced out of 3 of them, and some aren't completed yet.

[VP Baltar]

I find it utterly strange that you have never seen a mass claim before then.

[Hero764]

I find it utterly strange that you have never seen a mass claim before then.

That's great. You can check for yourself though, I'm not lying.

[VP Baltar]

X, you were in Mini765 with Hero, did a mass claim take place there at all?

Looks like you replaced out of your other mini early.

skimmed your newbie games and I didn't see any talk of mass claims in them. So, maybe you haven't. Still seems weird it wouldn't have happened in a game you were in or at least read before.

To answer your question about benefits of mass claim, it is beneficial because it can potentially help to confirm players and town and thus lessen the pool of potential scum. As this is likely lylo, we need to increase our odds of hitting scum as much as we can.

[Vi]

It can cut you like a knife, if the gift becomes the fire
On a wire between will and what will be

Vote Count XXXVIII:

And she's dancing like she's never danced before

X (L-3) ~ Hero764

Minimum (L-4)

Not Voting:

elvis_knits, hasdgfas, tubby216, Sotty7, VP Baltar, X
[size=0]e_knits 1 | Hero 0 | hascow 2 | tubby 1 | Sotty7 0 | VP Baltar 0 | X 0[/size]

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(88%)

[X]

This is a strawman, and a bad one at that. He did not look like a research kind of guy from the offhandedness of most of his posts. He was just playing in the moment. Second, this was not my only comment against PP that explained my vote. Look at ISO 4-11.

Is there a 'good' kind of strawman? =P

Haha...I guess the word that I was looking for was "obvious."

I really don't see how offhandedness and wanting to do research have anything to do with each other. You can do research about the game and still play in the moment.

It's a matter of time that he was putting into the game. He wasn't doing ISO re-reads or checking up on people's meta - he was clearly reacting to the new things that had been posted. I'm trying to be clear. But I'm not quite sure how this matters...back to the topic:

My points on PP were:
1. Parroting what VPB had said earlier and almost trying to pass it off as a new argument (114-5)
2. Asking a loaded question (116)
3. Speaking from the mafia mentality, "You have gained the attention of the mafia, and have set yourself for a kill." (114)
4. A roleclaim that did not match his actions; also that the claim is a convenient scum claim (221)
5. Having knowledge beyond what people with his join date usually have, because it could have been supplied by buddies

You got #2 and #5, and sort of got #4, although your phrasing could be taken the wrong way.

Fact is, you were saying to someone else not to vote Empking because he's always like this(correct), but then you vote Empking for acting scummy. You've already acknowledged that he's

always

scummy though, so why vote? Don't go yelling 'policy lynch' because your reasons for voting for him were that he was scummy, not a bad player. I knew Empking had flipped town, yeah, but I knew before I even joined the game that Empking always played scummy, and that it was stupid to vote him for that.

And what changed from day 1 to day 2? Empking was acting the same as always to me.

There's a certain amount of scumminess with Empking is gratuitous. I was somewhat aware of this, and therefore reluctant to lynch him early on. D1 he just did nothing, and asked some stupid questions. D2 he looked like he was floundering for a case to grab on to, so that he wouldn't have to go under. It didn't look like he had built actual suspicions, but was just flailing. I assumed that Empking could at least get actual suspicions. And of course, there was the whole interaction on page 12 where EK was one of his two suspects, but didn't want people to vote for her. That set off my scumdar like mad.

Not sure what you mean about 'a good chance its lylo'? If you're referring to how there's probably 3 scum then I'm not really scared of a quicklynch. It would be a huge coincidence for all three to be on at the same time(I don't think I've ever seen a quick 3 scum bandwagon). The FoS is suspect though. What was scummy about my vote?

I guess you didn't quite read to the end of Mini 765. Scum (Kreriov, Sajin, and I) quicklynched SerialClergyman with the help of billsabersyanks. 7 people alive, 3 scum.

After reading this I thought your vote was on Pesco X, but it wasn't, it was on PP. Why did you feel the need to answer this question about the Pesco wagon? To me, it's clear that forb is asking the people who are voting for pesco to bring a better case. This was a strange comment.

Did you find pesco suspicious at this point X?

IIRC, I was slightly supsicious of Pesco for the aforementioned reasons. I was putting in my two cents, and I was pretty sure it wouldn't stop anyone with a better case from saying, "No, the case is really that..."

X, you were in Mini765 with Hero, did a mass claim take place there at all?

Interestingly enough, no. We (scum) prepared a lot for massclaim, but it didn't come up.

[Sotty7]

Hero, did you read the game all the way though or did you just do some iso reads?

I read it all the way through and then did iso reads on some people(mainly X and elvis).

The reason I asked was this part of your case on Elvis here:

I still think we should lynch empking.

Yet before she said:

I would prefer him as a fallback lynch. Our battery power is going down pretty fast, so if we absolutely can't agree on some of the scummier people, then I say we go for empking. Otherwise, I think we have bigger fish to fry.

I don't really see what changed. Except for the fact that Emp stated suspicions of ek. OMGUS much?

These two quotes come from two different days and over a span of over two weeks and several game pages. Do you really think nothing could have changed for Elvis in that time? I feel like you put the two most contradictory quotes on Elvis you could find together in an attempt to make her look worse. I find that pretty scummy considering you didn't attempt to provide and perspective on her opinion and how it did or didn't change over time.

FOS: Hero

---

X, I can see where you are coming from. The exchange just made me do a double take is all.

As for a massclaim, I think it's probably time. I think we should do it popcorn style if we do it starting with the player most of us find the most suspicious. For me that would be Hero.

[elvis_knits]

E_k:

Ok well, I liked E_k at first during her whole fiasco with VPB. I really stopped liking her when she defended Moriarity:

QFT? Really?

I didn't think moriarty's post was that bad. Moriarty basically said he's sucpicious of some other people besides pesco, but not sure they're more scummy yet.

image is putting words in moriarty's mouth that are WIFOM at best.

Also, I think image (and X) are being super harsh to moriarty for keeping a vote on pesco just because moriarty is not SURE pesco is the MOST scummy anymore. OBV moriarty still thinks pesco is scummy.

A slight waver in confidence doesn't seem like such a big deal.

Ugh. First of all, this accomplishes nothing for town(feel free to point them, but accomplishes three things for scum: 1. E_k looks good for defending a townie, 2. She gets to distance herself from a Xscum and 3. She gets to look like she's doing stuff so no one can question her. The fact that Moriarty was NK'd seems to suggest that it might have been a plan to make E_k look better. The fact that image's initial argument made perfect sense makes this post all the stranger.

It wasn't a defense of moriarty so much as an attack on image. It does accomplish something for town because it points out image putting words in another player's mouth. To me, that is significant since it seems pretty scummy. You don't think that it's scummy to put words in player's mouths? You think there is no town motication for pointing it out?

Your points 1,2, and 3 are WIFOM based on you assuming I'm scum. Actually, all of that is really a made-up story of what my motivations might have been if I were scum. It's circular reasoning.

Other things I don't like about her:

How did you go from being sure empking was scum and wanting him dead, to thinking he's probably a jester and maybe we shouldn't lynch him?

I really don't like how she's basically restating an argument already brought up 1(or 2?) times. This is blatant bandwagoning.

I can't help it if I agree with a what some other people said in that instance. That is actually a good thing to find places where you agree, since we are trying to find a consensus. If my only contribution to the game was useless parotting, THAT would be scummy. But I have made plenty of my own arguments.

And bandwagoning is not bad if you have a reason for doing so.

Also, I have no idea who image IS suspicious of. He doesn't seem to be looking for scum. If you're going to try to stop the lynch of the highest vote getter, you should have a better idea of who to lynch. Or at least some idea. image isn't having any ideas.

This came after a post where she agreed with an argument made against image. I'm reading this as her throwing some suspicion onto image to try and see if people will pick up and go for his lynch.

I had been suspicious of image for a while, demonstrated by the part that you yourself have quoted, where I attacked him for putting words in moriarty's mouth. So I don't see why you would think my suspicion on image was somehow false or manufactured.

I still think we should lynch empking.

Yet before she said:

I would prefer him as a fallback lynch. Our battery power is going down pretty fast, so if we absolutely can't agree on some of the scummier people, then I say we go for empking. Otherwise, I think we have bigger fish to fry.

I don't really see what changed. Except for the fact that Emp stated suspicions of ek. OMGUS much?

The second quote was on day 1 when there were other stronger leads. Lots of things changed and happened to make me think empking was the best lynch at the time of the first quote. One thing that did influence my suspicions WAS that he said he was suspicious of me "for reasons he couldn't recall." It wasn't just that he was suspcious of me... it was that he didn't have

any reason

. I don't really think that's OMGUS, since it's his reasoning (or lack thereof) that I object to.

The whole empking wagon in general was terrible btw. I realize not everyone on that wagon can be scum though.

I don't understand how it was terrible. Empking was not playing like town. I don't understand anyone thinking he was playing like town.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, so maybe Hero doesn't understand massclaim and that would explain his slight hesitance, but I really don't like his cases on X and EK, two players who I believe are likely town.

The cases seem very contrived if you ask me, and hardly substantial enough to call someone scum. They are looking at very specific incidents that are removed from any sort of context and are backed by either 'gut' or WIFOM speculation about NKs.

I am very much ok with mass claim starting with Hero.

Mod, any update on hascow? He hasn't even posted for the day

Tubby, I would like to hear some of your thoughts as you have been very quiet for most of the time since you came in.

[Hero764]

It's a matter of time that he was putting into the game. He wasn't doing ISO re-reads or checking up on people's meta - he was clearly reacting to the new things that had been posted. I'm trying to be clear. But I'm not quite sure how this matters...back to the topic:

My points on PP were:
1. Parroting what VPB had said earlier and almost trying to pass it off as a new argument (114-5)
2. Asking a loaded question (116)
3. Speaking from the mafia mentality, "You have gained the attention of the mafia, and have set yourself for a kill." (114)
4. A roleclaim that did not match his actions; also that the claim is a convenient scum claim (221)
5. Having knowledge beyond what people with his join date usually have, because it could have been supplied by buddies

You got #2 and #5, and sort of got #4, although your phrasing could be taken the wrong way.

1. I don't see where you've mentioned this before now.
2. k
3. k
4. k.
5. This is the whole problem I have with you and PP. You tacked on a bullshit reason to further justify your case. It just doesn't look good at all.

These two quotes come from two different days and over a span of over two weeks and several game pages. Do you really think nothing could have changed for Elvis in that time? I feel like you put the two most contradictory quotes on Elvis you could find together in an attempt to make her look worse. I find that pretty scummy considering you didn't attempt to provide and perspective on her opinion and how it did or didn't change over time.

=/ Empking acted the same the entire time he was in the game, so no I don't see how something could have changed for Elvis. She never even mentioned something changing, so if something did there was no way I could know.

It wasn't a defense of moriarty so much as an attack on image. It does accomplish something for town because it points out image putting words in another player's mouth. To me, that is significant since it seems pretty scummy. You don't think that it's scummy to put words in player's mouths? You think there is no town motication for pointing it out?

Your points 1,2, and 3 are WIFOM based on you assuming I'm scum. Actually, all of that is really a made-up story of what my motivations might have been if I were scum. It's circular reasoning.

Moriarity can defend himself. Defending him implies that you know his alignment.

And you don't seem to understand what I was getting at with the points 1 2 and 3. I was pointing out how it would help you if you were scum, not saying that's why you did it.

I can't help it if I agree with a what some other people said in that instance. That is actually a good thing to find places where you agree, since we are trying to find a consensus. If my only contribution to the game was useless parotting, THAT would be scummy. But I have made plenty of my own arguments.

And bandwagoning is not bad if you have a reason for doing so.

Bandwagoning probably wasn't the right word. I guess parroting would be better. I don't care that you agree Juls was scummy for reasons brought up by others(I thought Juls would flip scum too). You were just using someone else's argument again against her, which makes it seem like you were trying to make it seem like you were actively scumhunting while you actually weren't.

I had been suspicious of image for a while, demonstrated by the part that you yourself have quoted, where I attacked him for putting words in moriarty's mouth. So I don't see why you would think my suspicion on image was somehow false or manufactured.

Again you completely misunderstand my point. I think you're scum so obviously any suspicions would be false(unless you're bussing). The fact that you expressed suspicions of him earlier have nothing to do with this. You're trying to make image look more suspicious that people currently though to see how plausible a bandwagon would be(that's what it looked like).

The second quote was on day 1 when there were other stronger leads. Lots of things changed and happened to make me think empking was the best lynch at the time of the first quote. One thing that did influence my suspicions WAS that he said he was suspicious of me "for reasons he couldn't recall." It wasn't just that he was suspcious of me... it was that he didn't have any reason. I don't really think that's OMGUS, since it's his reasoning (or lack thereof) that I object to.

You find this strange coming from Empking why?

I don't understand how it was terrible. Empking was not playing like town. I don't understand anyone thinking he was playing like town.

Empking was playing like Empking. Believe or not, players like him who drop scumtells are actually dropping null tells, and the fact that most of you in here knew of his meta and still called him scummy for it is the terrible part.

two players who I believe are likely town.

What? What makes you think that?

The cases seem very contrived if you ask me, and hardly substantial enough to call someone scum. They are looking at very specific incidents that are removed from any sort of context and are backed by either 'gut' or WIFOM speculation about NKs.

Who do you think is scum then? IIRC all of your suspicions have flipped town.

I am very much ok with mass claim starting with Hero.

Sure, but I'd like X or e_k to go next.

I am Phil Collins, vanilla townie.

[Hero764]

Also X, you didn't answer this:

What was scummy about my vote?

[VP Baltar]

What? What makes you think that?

Both have actively been scum hunting with original lines of thought for the most part. I haven't seen any behavior from either that struck me as scummy, and if that is the case at this point in the game it makes me feel they are likely town.

Who do you think is scum then? IIRC all of your suspicions have flipped town.

Well you have seemed awfully suspicious since you replaced in this game. And I'm not to sure what you are getting at with the "all of your suspicions have flipped town" business. Who are you referring to? Juls, who had acted very scummy and I started the case on?

If you want to follow that line of thought, we only have to look at your predecessor being on both the PP and Empking lynch, and as far as the Juls lynch, you had her listed as one of your top suspects....so what exactly is your point? Seems to me that if we are going be revisionist and talk about people going after dead town, you are in it just as much as anybody else.

[Hero764]

Both have actively been scum hunting with original lines of thought for the most part. I haven't seen any behavior from either that struck me as scummy, and if that is the case at this point in the game it makes me feel they are likely town.

Actively scumhunting isn't necessarily a town tell, you know.

Well you have seemed awfully suspicious since you replaced in this game. And I'm not to sure what you are getting at with the "all of your suspicions have flipped town" business. Who are you referring to? Juls, who had acted very scummy and I started the case on?

If you want to follow that line of thought, we only have to look at your predecessor being on both the PP and Empking lynch, and as far as the Juls lynch, you had her listed as one of your top suspects....so what exactly is your point? Seems to me that if we are going be revisionist and talk about people going after dead town, you are in it just as much as anybody else.

That was more of just me talking to myself about how you don't really suspect anyone at this point and that those you do have already been lynched(and flipped town). I'm not going after you and I don't find you particularly suspicious(outside of the "likely town" comment, which I think is a stupid way of looking at people and implies that you might be interested in defending them).

And I meant besides me, who do you find scummy? We've still got a full scum team out there.

[VP Baltar]

That was more of just me talking to myself about how you don't really suspect anyone at this point

Nice misrep.

Right now, I am feeling more confident in my town reads than my scum reads, which almost guarantees to me that the scum can be found in Hero764, hasdgfas, tubby216, and Sotty7.

Out of those I would rank my top two as being you and hascow. Third is more of a toss up because I don't have much of a read on tubby (though I felt Pesco was scummy) and Sotty, who has seems somewhat town, but feels a little in the background on purpose to me.

I think is a stupid way of looking at people and implies that you might be interested in defending them

Town reads are a very effective way to parse down your pool of suspects. It has worked very successfully for me during my time playing mafia.

Also, if we are going forward with the popcorn claiming, you would need to affirmatively pick who should go next out of X or EK.

[tubby216]

i appologize for my absence it has been a very busy past few days for me and it doesn't look like its getting any better. please alow me some time to review and i will post thoughts soonest.

[Hero764]

Nice misrep.

Thanks dude.

Right now, I am feeling more confident in my town reads than my scum reads, which almost guarantees to me that the scum can be found in Hero764, hasdgfas, tubby216, and Sotty7.

Out of those I would rank my top two as being you and hascow. Third is more of a toss up because I don't have much of a read on tubby (though I felt Pesco was scummy) and Sotty, who has seems somewhat town, but feels a little in the background on purpose to me.

What do you find suspicious about has and tubby? Where do you think Sotty has been in the background on purpose?

Town reads are a very effective way to parse down your pool of suspects. It has worked very successfully for me during my time playing mafia.

Yeah but all you've done is said "These two people are probably town, so the other four are probably scum". That doesn't really help, and it doesn't explain why the other four are more likely to be scum.

Also, if we are going forward with the popcorn claiming, you would need to affirmatively pick who should go next out of X or EK.

Let's go with X.

[Hero764]

EBWOP:

[quote=Hero764"]
Yeah but all you've done is said "These two people are probably town, so the other four probably contain scum". That doesn't really help, and it doesn't explain why the other four are more likely to be scum. [/quote]

Fixed to make sense.

[VP Baltar]

What do you find suspicious about has and tubby?

hascow has become increasingly non-present as this game has worn on, which stinks of scum content with the mislynches taking place. He seems to pop in and take a pot shot once in awhile and then disappear.

You can look at my argument with Pesco on D1 for tubby's predecessor. Before PP's miller claim I was most definitely preferring a Pesco lynch. Tubby then replaced and said very little. I didn't go after him at that point because I preferred the Juls lynch and he was supportive of it.

Where do you think Sotty has been in the background on purpose?

Just a general aurua of hanging back at key moments. I'd need to do an iso read to bring up solid examples, as she hasn't exactly been high on my radar this game

[Sotty7]

I believe Hascow is V/LA right now VP. Vi noted it in her post at the start of the day. Also I am interested to see where you think I have been hanging back on purpose. I have been present for all the major events and been giving my opinions when possible.

[VP Baltar]

ok, I guess I missed hasdfgas being on V/LA. Is there somewhere saying when he'll be back? Seems as if I'm missing it.

re: hanging back--I'll put a post together this evening probably because right now it is more gut rather than something I have extensively looked into, but I definitely feel like you've been a bit behind the ball as the game has worn on. Maybe I'm wrong completely, but I don't have the same hardcore pro-town vibes I get from EK or X (after I did an iso read of him). An iso read of you is definitely necessary.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, Sotty iso read time:

D1 I think her play looks pretty solid. Actively questioning multiple targets and doesnt' appear to be opportunistically taking up on wagons. Also, I didn't remember this, but I see she was the catalyst that made me originally take a harder look at Juls. Town points here.

D2 has a bit of a dip in activity level from her in terms of number of posts (D1 18 posts, D2 9 posts), but it was a slightly shorter day and there was a post or two where you mentioned RL issues. Scum hunting looks ok, but not as broad of a net as day 1.

D3, another dip in activity and another shortened day. I'm starting to see a pattern here, but I'm not sure which is the chicken and which is the egg. I checked on you saying you had another game going on, and that checks out. Perhaps yesterday was where I am getting most of this vibe of not being present from. I can't complain too much about this day, however, because I wanted Juls lynched since D2 and didn't put in a ton of effort myself.

Conclusions:

• There is a reason Sotty was last on my list of potential scum, her actions do mostly speak with town motivation.
  
• She has had a decline in activity, though this very well could be the result of our steadily declining day length and other factors
  
• Other players (hascow and Truant that I noted), noticed the background vibe from her as well, so I don't think I'm completely crazy here.

Overall, I don't think Sotty is a good lynch choice today barring something that comes out in massclaim, but I'd like to here her thoughts on who she thinks is scummy today and why.

[Vi]

When life's river flows
No one really knows
Till someone's there to show
The way to lasting love

Vote Count XXXIX:

You always will be mine

X (L-3) ~ Hero764

Minimum (L-4)

Not Voting:

elvis_knits, hasdgfas, tubby216, Sotty7, VP Baltar, X
[size=0]e_knits 0 | Hero 0 | hascow 3HOLD1 | tubby 0 | Sotty7 0 | VP Baltar 0 | X 0[/size]

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(90%)