Open 160 Bird 7P (GAME!) - before 823

[VP Baltar]

Vote hohum

because you always replace out of my games.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote bloodcovenant

for realz.

[VP Baltar]

could you explain why?

I could, but I won't. Does my vote on him bother you?

[VP Baltar]

There are reasons.

[VP Baltar]

It should be apparent.

[VP Baltar]

Do you get annoyed if you have to answer an "obvious" question?

Depends. In the above case, no.

What are the consequences of people trying to tear down a wagon?

From my understanding, wagons are a good way to find scum. But then again, I could be wrong.

[VP Baltar]

You're not wrong.

yabba and bloodcovenant are currently at the top of my list of suspects

Sorry, should have included the sarcasm tag with that.

[VP Baltar]

Aaaaaand I'm already pages behind in this game. Catching up today after work.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, Neil Young's

Everybody Knows This is Nowhere

on the record player and a glass of rum in hand. Let's do this. Starting from about page 2.
_______________________________

Just don't lynch me too fast, wait until we have at least a few pages of data, that way town can hunt scum more effectively in the future.

Are you comfortable with being lynched?

Wait... you seriously believe that I am pushing for a no lynch?

Well, it was an odd thing to do. Since you're somewhat new on this site, where did you pick up the idea of voting no lynch in the RVS? Did you come up with it on your own?

B) Calm your emotions. A level-headed town is an efficient town.

Why are you trying to direct people on how to play? How was hohum not being level-headed or emotional? I'm missing whatever you are getting at.

c) he's stirring up discussion. Mastin selfvotes during RVS consistently for this precise reason.

Pro-tip: very little Mastin does is worth imitating.

I'm not going to say scumtell automatically, but jumping outright and saying that you've found top suspects after a single RL day is irking me simply from a strategic vantage, town or scum.

Why does it bother you? Top suspect doesn't mean guaranteed scum. At the start of the game everyone should be even on your suspicion list. If someone does something scummy, wouldn't that automatically make them your top suspect in relation to the other players?

Now sometimes, wagons can have another effect. Sometimes you can see that some of the latecomers on the wagon come up with a lousy excuse, and then you vote them for being opportunistic. In that case, the wagon serves a different pro-town purpose. While I think claiming there was nonexistant reasoning was incorrect, sometimes that happens.

Let's not rush ourselves. Keep your minds level, your emotions calm, continue to question everything like you have been, and the suspects will emerge. Then even more suspicions fly, then the fun begins. Process!

I don't see much point to this sort of "advice". not really scumhunting.

, this is the experienced guy. Sorry to be relatively new, sir. Now it would be nice if you didn't try to gain any superiority, and just played the game.

Please don't forget that I know who you are. Don't expect to play the noob card in this game. +1 scumpoint

- VP, not sure why he withheld sound logic when exchanging with Charnel. It wasn't out of frustration. Still, that's one thing.

And what why is this scummy? what is the scum motivation for it?

@yabba-how much evidence do you need to gather before you would be willing to vote somebody?

VP Baltar, why weren't you willing to share your reasons for voting for BC?

It would not have served a pro-town purpose for me to reveal my reasons at that time.

seriously dude? your so gay

Seriously dude, this is against site rules on many levels. Knock it off.

I think you're both crappy town.

Well that should narrow down the scum pretty easily for you. Who are they?

Dodging questions is always a scumtell. You can argue that you weren't dodging, but that's it.

QFT

****side note: I disapprove of all this Mastin discussion. seriously, if you want to be successful at this game, he is not a person to model yourself after.****

We've been doing laps around the other players in terms of post counts

So? If it is fruitful discussion, then it shouldn't be a problem. I think Octupis and myself are the only people who were mildly behind.

With 7 people things should be expected to move along at a slightly more rapid pace.

Agreed.

you have a point with the defence of your attack that yabba knew more.

Charnel, explain this for me. What quote of yabba's indicated he has inside knowledge and explain how that quote means he has inside knowledge.

now they're trying to put some distance in between each other?

What makes you feel so?

---------

Ok, fully caught up.

Mod, vote counts a bit more frequently please

I'll leave my vote until BC states who he would actually feel comfortable worth lynching. I also think Charnel is scummy as hell. Yabba's up there too. Octupis needs to post some more substantial content. hohum and muzzz are town so far to me.

[VP Baltar]

@hohum

re:Charnel--he is an alt for someone else. I won't reveal who out of respect for privacy, but playing the newbie card is shady at best.

re:vote counts and taking notes--vote counts need to happen more than once every five pages, plain and simple. As far as notes, I'm aware of the benefits.

[VP Baltar]

who are you an alt of hohum?


Charnel accidently outed himself, that is how I know who he is and also why I say I am willing to respect his privacy.

[VP Baltar]

I didn't like his sarcastic defense. That is a scummy way to defend it, and means that hohum is more likely right in his assumption that yabba is scum.

I'm more interested in the "inside knowledge" part however, because I don't see where that is coming from and you agreed with it. Cite the quote for me and point out how it implies that yabba has inside knowledge.

Unvote, Vote Charnel

It is far from playing the newby card.

While I agree that acting superior based on time on site is annoying and is fair to be called out, what bothered me was you saying:

Sorry to be relatively new, sir.

You directly state that you're new on the site, which is playing the noob card to me. I don't like it.

re: outting Charnel--I'm not going to do it hohum. I don't think it is necessary to the game and is more an issue of you wanting to feed your curiosity. You know enough simply by knowing he is an alt. If he wants you to know for game related reasons, then that is his decision.

I will tentatively Unvote for now, although I am suspicious of Charnel, that was a joke vote so I feel it neccesary to remove it now we have left the RVS.

So, you are just going to wait to see which wagon gets steam before you put a vote down? If you are suspicious of Charnel, I don't understand the need to unvote him...particularly if he isn't currently in danger of a lynch.

[VP Baltar]

Don't link me to Octupis when I'm the one that pointed out his scummy unvote. That's complete BS, BC.

As far as my vote on Charnel, it's not for pressure. He has acted scummy and my vote shows my lynching intent as of this point in time.

[VP Baltar]

yeah, game is still on. Hohum is highly suspicious for possibly attempting to quick hammer.

[VP Baltar]

How is unvoting fast scummy?

[VP Baltar]

Still, my vote rests on Charnel because I want to know why he tried to ask for a lynch on someone else when he's under some pressure himself. I think he was in no position to do that.

This is a horrible reason to be voting someone.

Unvote, Vote: BloodCovenant

I'm fine with this. If anyone else is thinking about voting you, you need to claim.

[VP Baltar]

I think BloodCoovenent is now at L-1. Wouldn't it a good idea for him to claim now?

Depends on if the town actually wants to lynch him at this point or not. I personally feel it is a decent choice for the day, but if the wagon doesn't have support to follow through we might not want to force a claim just yet. So, do you think BC should be lynched today?

[VP Baltar]

@Baltar+muzzz: I'm still confused. Do you not find it scummy Charnel did that?

You're going to have to be more specific than "that". What are you refering to?

[VP Baltar]

@VP-183: "That" = saying "Can I have a lynch please" when he's under pressure

Not necessarily. Even when one is under pressure you should still continue to scumhunt if you are town.

(his unvote prevented my lynch, and that has to count for something

Why is that? He didn't unvote because he knew hohum was going to try and hammer.

ok. Unconcentrated posting kills me. Hohum here is your proof.

I'll give you a tip for whatever new alt you create: use your watched topics folder. That way you'll never accidentally post in the wrong game.

In my experience, quick-lynching/-hammering is a towntell.

Unless you are an alt as well, I'd say your experience is limited an inaccurate. I have quick hammered as scum and got away with it. Why do you think it is a town tell?

You want my claim. fine. I'm the doc.

If BC is not the real doc, the real one should counterclaim him now. Catching scum > losing our doc tonight. Did you breadcrumb your role at all BC?

Oh, I see that yabba beat me to it:

@all: If a counterclaim exists, would you vouch for it? If it were me, I'd err on the safe side and have the doc counterclaim, simply because it's (barring a docsave) LyLo if we blow it here.

I will start, I am

not

the doc.

I could totally see a yabba-VP scumpair.

You're certainly thrashing about quite a lot. Pending a counter doc claim and a votecount, I'm ready to put my vote back on you.

Unvote

for now.

In terms of pressing me for my counterclaim, I'll wait. If we mostly agree to go counterclaim hunting, I will go along with it.

Huh? If you are the doc, claim now please.

[VP Baltar]

@Baltar-195: Did you read my chain of logic in 194, the "Bird is a best-of-three" point? Tell me what you think.

Yeah, but that is the worst case scenario for this setup. A number of factors (such as doc protection) could change the outcome and layout of the days following today. Furthermore mislynching today isn't the complete disaster you describe, as it narrows the pool of potential suspects tomorrow. Yes, we would have to be absolutely correct tomorrow, but the odds of hitting scum also increase dramatically.

He isn't the doc. I assure you he's lying. Lynch him please.

You worth trusting here? I'm not so sure.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not opposed to lynching BC today, but lynching an uncounterclaimed powerrole in this setup is frakking stupid. I need a few moments to look at some things and make some considerations.

[VP Baltar]

The problem with your theory, hohum, is that lynching a claimed doc is a complete disaster for the town if he actually is the doc. It gives the scum the chance to then hit our cop tonight and the town is basically screwed D2. Your WIFOM about what the scum would do D1 with claiming is pretty useless.

I definitely want to hear from BC about whether he breadcrumbed first before I even consider following through on the lynch. You trying to hammer it through with horrible logic is pretty damn scummy.

The reason a doc counterclaim would be good right now is that it would guarantee us a dead scum in exchange for our doc. Is it the optimal outcome for D1? No, but it isn't the complete disaster of potentially lynching our doc today that you are describing.

[VP Baltar]

I would like to see that game hohum.

[VP Baltar]

Also, let's hear from BC (and everyone else) before we move ahead with any lynches, mkay?

[VP Baltar]

Regardless, more BC, Charnel and Octupis before anything happens.

[VP Baltar]

hmm, I don't like that at all.

[VP Baltar]

This setup is unique in that it creates far more incentive for scum to claim power roles at any stage of the game. To use a baseball analogy: it's a sacrifice fly. One scum goes down in flames while the other one snipes at counterclaimed PRs. By not following procedure and lynching without a counterclaim, we effectively remove this incentive and tip the balance back into the town's favor.

I don't necessarily agree with this being a good tactic for scum. Losing one of their members for a PR isn't a great exchange because they only have two members. This is especially true of claiming doc. Say they get a counter claim on the doc and lose a member that day. That night the doc gets killed, but the second member would still be susceptible to cop investigation. It is a bad decision that could result in a perfect town win. I plan to check out your link; I just need some time today to do it.

re:egruntz--I want to hear his reread. He could still be scum trying to backpeddle on the doc claim now because it put him in a sticky situation. Of course, BC could have also just been an idiot who was pissed at the game and boned the town.

Again hohum, there is no rush until we sort this matter our fully. I don't like Charnel dismissing the possibility of BC/egruntz being scum immediately because of a fake doc claim. That makes no sense. A Charnel lynch today wouldn't be a bad idea either.

[VP Baltar]

Actually one thing I notice upon reread was that Charnel never even made direct mention to the doc claim after it was made. Charnel, what were your feelings on it? Did you believe it? Why didn't you address it directly?

[VP Baltar]

I'm not into directing the cop anywhere. But lynching Charnel isn't a bad idea. Hohum, thoughts?

[VP Baltar]

Why do you object to advising the cop on a target?

Because it allows the scum to have influence over his/her investigation. It is better if we just let the cop make up his/her own mind and not give the scum the opportunity to direct the investigation away from them.

Regarding BloodCovenent's claim, isn't a possibility that he is a vanilla townie and he claimed doctor to protect the real doctor.

No, that makes no sense. There are few incidences where fake claiming doc is a good idea. This is most certainly not one of them. If his role really is VT, then he's an idiot who was playing selfishly just because he didn't want to be lynched.

@Charnel:

Did you believe it? Why didn't you address it directly?

[VP Baltar]

And if he does flip VT?

[VP Baltar]

Answer my question, where do you think the town sits tomorrow if he flips VT? Who would be your top suspect?

[VP Baltar]

@muzzz, I never said that my logic is that Charnel could be egruntz's scumbuddy. That sort of speculation is useless without a flip. I find it far more interesting that he ignored the doc claim altogether and now comes up with a very irrational theory on why egruntz must be town. It seems to me like he has inside information. It just doesn't seem natural to auto believe something as ridiculous as one player claiming doc and then his replacement claiming VT.

[VP Baltar]

Hohum, what did you think of Octupis' last few posts?

Also, can you provide a list of all the players and rate them on a scale of town, null, scum.

[VP Baltar]

@Baltar: the hole in your logic is this: If charnel were scum and BC were town, it would be in charnel's best interest to let us lynch BC. It's a free kill, puts us in lylo tomorrow and has the added convenience of making me look ridiculously scummy.

Well, when a player like you is screaming about how the lynch needs to happen, I would most certainly distance myself from the lynch as scum. It most certainly does make you look bad and that is all the more reason for him to be nowhere near it. Isn't WIFOM fun? More actual scumhunting, please.

[VP Baltar]

Charnel: You seem to have done an about face in that last post regarding your stance on BC. Did post 266 strike a nerve, or what?

Agreed. Explanation very necessary. I'm ready to hammer pending this response.


Hohum, if you dont' want to elaborate on every player, fine, but you need to list your top three suspects before the day ends. I feel you have been very guarded in some ways with your suspicions and I don't like it.

[VP Baltar]

The faster you hammer the more likely it is you'll get what you want out of me because I need to do some actual work today instead of stalking this thread.

Heh, well talk to Charnel. I want his answer. Don't worry though, if I hammer, I'll time it so you are online at the time and will get your twilight thoughts in.

[VP Baltar]

No.

[VP Baltar]

You know, you are like the most on edge stoner I know.

[VP Baltar]

Was that so hard?

Unvote, Vote: egruntz

Charnel, you still need to answer in twilight.

[VP Baltar]

Praise the lord. Go in peace my son.

[VP Baltar]

I tease. I tease. I'm actually enjoying playing with aggressive people for a change. Makes the game a hell of a lot more fun.

[VP Baltar]

Full scum claim. Got ya, you bastard.

[VP Baltar]

Sorry, I'm bored waiting to

crucify

listen carefully to Charnel.

[VP Baltar]

Charnel will get his in twilight.

[VP Baltar]

Well it should be interesting to see the scum and doc WIFOM their way through this one.

[VP Baltar]

I agree with hohum, Octupis, what say you?

Charnel, I read you in iso last night and I can maybe see where you were coming from a bit more as potential town. I'd still like you to answer the question about changing positions on egruntz at the last minute.

[VP Baltar]

I like certain points that Charnel makes in 317. Let's see where this goes:

Vote yabbaguy

[VP Baltar]

also, I may not be opposed to mass claim today if the order puts Octupis and yabba guy at the top and hohum and myself at the bottom. (order of top and bottom claims is probably irrelevant).

[VP Baltar]

I disagree that the town needs to wait until lylo to mass claim. Mass claim should happen when it is most optimal for town. Given yesterday's lynch, that time may be now.

[VP Baltar]

@Baltar: also, don't think it hasn't escaped my attention that you asked me for a list of my suspects in twilight and one of my two neutrals mysteriously vanished. That sort of rubs me the wrong way.

That is how you get razor burn.

now, with one mislynch, we have a few options:

One cop, one doc, one confirmed, one normal towny, and:

A a fakeclaiming scum as doc: lynch both docs for the win
B a fakeclaiming scum as cop: lynch both cops for the win
C a fakeclaiming scum as towny: lynch both townies for the win.

There is no way out for scum anymore.

Exactly! This essentially confirms Charnel is town. No scum would be for mass claim at this point as it results in them have a 0% chance to win. This setup is massively broken if both power roles survive N1.

I want to hear from Octu. It's up to him whether we claim today or not.

I disagree. Your resistance to mass claim is highly suspicious. It absolutely needs to happen.

@hohum-if you are town, you need to unvote right now. I don't want a quickhammer on Charnel to take place before a claim happens. And if you refuse to do that, please explain how the town can possibly lose from a mass claim right now.

[VP Baltar]

Fine, you're right. We don't want anyone at L-1 right now.

Unvote

I am very much against a quickhammer at this juncture and anyone who does is certainly the last scum.

There is nothing to think about regarding the massclaim. As Charnel put it:

now, with one mislynch, we have a few options:

One cop, one doc, one confirmed, one normal towny, and:

A a fakeclaiming scum as doc: lynch both docs for the win
B a fakeclaiming scum as cop: lynch both cops for the win
C a fakeclaiming scum as towny: lynch both townies for the win.

There is no way out for scum anymore.

These are my exact thoughts. If you can point to an actual hole in that logic, I may consider against it. In the meantime, unvote. It is not going to hurt anything to do so for now.

[VP Baltar]

lol. Yes, sir.

[VP Baltar]

yabba iz de scumz

[VP Baltar]

Good lord, you are being dense about this hohum.

ATTN ALL: I AM THE COP. CHARNEL WAS MY INVESTIGATION LAST NIGHT AND IS NOT MAFIA.

The remainder of the claiming order will be as follows:

yabbaguy
hohum
Octupis

Go!

[VP Baltar]

Remember how yesterday you said I was fighting you every step of the way? Is this supposed to be some sort of retribution?

[VP Baltar]

Meh, I already implied at the beginning of the day that I had an innocent read on Char. Something should have sounded off to you when I basically had no questions for him at the start of the day.

The reason I didn't want to claim first was because I wanted to catch a scum claiming cop and make this that much easier. As I see it now, they will be forced to claim vanilla...so we might not get a perfect victory here. This is my competative nature coming into play.

[VP Baltar]

Also, for what it's worth:

What are the consequences of people trying to tear down a wagon?

F

rom my understanding, wagons are a good way to find scum.

B

ut then again,

I

could be wrong.

[VP Baltar]

I saw it, and I almost claimed there, but like I said perfect victory was on my mind. I haven't had one yet and this is definitely the perfect opportunity. We'll see if it's still in the cards after yabba finishes debating on whether to claim VT or a doc.

[VP Baltar]

cute. you expected anyone to pick up on that because???

I didn't expect anyone to pick up on it, nor did I want them to. I wanted it to be there for when and if I claimed because it would help remove the WIFOM of a scum trying to counterclaim me.

My backing off of char should have been a much more obvious indication that I am the cop.

[VP Baltar]

So you are basically fake claiming doc because you are scum?

If you thought Octu was the cop, why would you protect him? Docs cannot protect cops in this setup. Thanks for playing and trying to rush the lynch scum.

[VP Baltar]

You know, we're just like the two old guy muppets in the balcony.





SCUM, JUST CLAIM YOU ARE SCUM. THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN WIN THIS GAME.

[VP Baltar]

Yabba is so obv scum it hurts.


re: setup-yeah, claiming D1 is a bad idea. Obviously if you get a noose around your neck, you have to claim, but I would hope anyone with a PR would at least be able to avoid putting their foot in their mouth that much on D1. My biggest concern was surviving N1, since I seem to have a bad habit of getting axed then as of late. Once Char claimed vanilla (which is the important fact you seem to be willfully ignoring yabba), this game was in the bag.

[VP Baltar]

Hohum did claim doc. You are scum. Good effort though.

[VP Baltar]

Pretty sure you are already lynched. Just incase, though,

Vote Yabbaguy

[VP Baltar]

For yabba:

If the doc protect would have succeeded last night then we could have potentially pulled it off. I was actually contemplating protecting muzz over octu but I decided to go with my original instinct -- incorrect as it turns out.

^Here is where he claimed doc. It wasn't a direct claim, but he was obviously saying he was the doc.

What would have changed if you had known he had claimed doc?

[VP Baltar]

Char claimed VT at the start of the day. That is why my cop claim was safe and I was thinking the same exact plan he was. There was no risk involved at all.

I think it is weird that the mod told him he was investigated, however.

[VP Baltar]

[qutoe="Octupis"]How do you know you got investigated? [/quote]

because he told you.

That is pretty much him saying he was told he was investigated, right?

[VP Baltar]

tag fail

[VP Baltar]

could be. English is a funny language.

[VP Baltar]

Even the mod thinks it's so obvious we don't need a final death scene.

[VP Baltar]

Got my guilty on Octupis last night. Wrong kill choice, buddy.

Vote Octupis

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, there was nothing you could have done really. Ftr, though, in this setup the doc cannot protect the cop, so you could have killed me last night.

However, even if you had it still would have been obvious that you were the last scum. The way things went D1 pretty much sealed your fate. No shame in that kind of loss, just bad luck.

[VP Baltar]

Thanks for modding Light-kun.

[VP Baltar]

By the way, what were those anti-town reasons you were withholding at the outset?

Can you point me to the post you are referring to? Also, sorry about your lynch. When you went against my plan and Octupis was for it, I just figured you had to be scum because (admittedly from my perspective) it was guaranteed to win the game for town. Really, up until that point I had pretty much felt you were town, so I don't think you played badly at all--quite the opposite for being relatively new on the site and I would definitely play with you again.

[VP Baltar]

Oh, because he voted No Lynch at the start, which is a horribly scummy move in this setup. Turns out, he was probably serious on getting a No Lynch. I thought it was fairly obvious and I said it wouldn't be pro-town to reveal my reasons because doing so removes the pressure of the vote. I wanted to gauge BC's reaction to it. I think this is something that many players don't understand fully about scumhunting.

Many times in games, players want you to fully explain yourself immediately for any move you make, but this isn't really the best way to go about guaging people's reactions, imo. Keeping your reasons to yourself at times can be very helpful from a stategic point of view in terms of getting what I would refer to as 'honest' responses from persons you are investigating. Often times people don't want to do this because it site meta perceives this as scummy, but I think it is worth the risk because it often reaps good rewards.

[VP Baltar]

Meh, I mean that certainly sealed his fate, but he was probably going to get lynched anyhow due to hohum very heavily implying that he was the real doc. You were high on my list and I don't know if the doc claim would have really stopped me from going along with the lynch even if egruntz had stuck with it.