Open 160 Bird 7P (GAME!) - before 823

[Light-kun]

Bloodcovenant has requested replacement. Search begins.

Okay, I realize an hour or two became half a day, but everything went well, so, here's a vote count:

Vote Count:

L-1
NONE

L-2
NONE

L-3
yabbaguy- (Charnel)
hohum- (BloodCovenant)
BloodCovenent - (hohum)


With seven alive, it is four to lynch.

[hohum]

Requesting a replacement as scum when you're about to be lynched is pretty fail BC. Please reconsider.

[VP Baltar]

hmm, I don't like that at all.

[yabbaguy]

Change:

BloodCovenent

??? >>> loser scum

[BloodCovenent]

No, i asked for a replacement before I claimed, because it was clear that I was not wanted here.

I didn't have any time to breadcrumb, since I was under suspicion from page 2.

Hohum's case on me is just as weak as he claims my case on him is. Some one else read the thread and decide on your own, not our opinions. This is my last post. Good luck town.

[hohum]

You're clearly wanted here. You're asking someone to replace into a VERY difficult position dude. I'm not really a horrible person, this whole thing has a lot to do with my MS persona, please don't take anything that's been said to you personally.

[BloodCovenent]

I'd rather not break out the PM. Good bye.

[hohum]

You're coming dangerously close to referencing melodrama which took place in a different ongoing game. Be careful. Throw me under the bus later after that game ends if it will make you feel better, I don't really care, but you need not force someone into a difficult position just because you don't like me.

[hohum]

look dude. you don't have t post again for 48 hours. Just take the time to reconsider.

[Light-kun]

egruntz replaces Bloodcovenant.

[egruntz]

Okay, Bloodcovenant left me with a big pile of shit that I need to dig out of. First of all, I'm going to claim accurately:

Vanilla Townie

. I have no idea why Bloodcovenant decided to claim Doctor, so don't ask. I still need to read through the game entirely, so I'll post my thoughts later on.

[hohum]

*sigh*

I tried.

More egruntz lynching please.

[Charnel]

just woke up, but: why would egruntz-scum reclaim in this position?

he wouldn't. So his claim is likely true. Sorry hohum, but you need to look more to other people.

[hohum]

I disagree. There's an excellent case there, it's quite clear at this point that BC basically lied and the claim really doesn't clear anything up.

He's at l-1, typically procedure from here is to lynch a claimed vanilla role and let the flip do the talking. Anything else leads to WIFOM.

[hohum]

egruntz isn't going to be able to speak for BC's state of mind but why would he claim doc falsely? The simplest explanation was that he wanted to do a little role fishing for his scum partner and take some parting shots before he was lynched.

egruntz isn't going to claim scum, that would be stupid. He's simply trying to survive at this point.

[hohum]

why would egruntz-scum reclaim in this position?

he wouldn't. So his claim is likely true.

This is in defiance of Occam's Razor. You've got to do way too much assuming to arrive at this conclusion. You're basically throwing multiple extensively documented cases to assume that egruntz (a newbie) wouldn't make a mistake and try to change his claim to save his own ass.

[hohum]

Sorry for the multi-posting, I'll stop now.

[hohum]

I wrote this up an hour ago in order to later retort anyone who decided to argue that I'm suggesting that we follow procedure (or not follow procedure) as it suits my whims. After debating the importance of what I'm trying to convey to you guys, I decided to go ahead and post it, even though revealing too much of my hand at once puts me at a disadvantage from a stand point of debate mechanics.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10499

I don't think many of you will actually go read that link, so I'm going to summarize it for you:

This setup is unique in that it creates far more incentive for scum to claim power roles at any stage of the game. To use a baseball analogy: it's a sacrifice fly. One scum goes down in flames while the other one snipes at counterclaimed PRs. By not following procedure and lynching without a counterclaim, we effectively remove this incentive and tip the balance back into the town's favor.

For town to win this setup, there can't be a wagon claim which won't result in a lynch. In this respect, the site-wide (and well established and practiced) lynch procedure on MS becomes a tool merely to prevent quick-lynches and nothing more.

[hohum]

I'm personally fond of this setup because it forces the town to really think about evidence instead of relying on claims to catch scum.

[VP Baltar]

This setup is unique in that it creates far more incentive for scum to claim power roles at any stage of the game. To use a baseball analogy: it's a sacrifice fly. One scum goes down in flames while the other one snipes at counterclaimed PRs. By not following procedure and lynching without a counterclaim, we effectively remove this incentive and tip the balance back into the town's favor.

I don't necessarily agree with this being a good tactic for scum. Losing one of their members for a PR isn't a great exchange because they only have two members. This is especially true of claiming doc. Say they get a counter claim on the doc and lose a member that day. That night the doc gets killed, but the second member would still be susceptible to cop investigation. It is a bad decision that could result in a perfect town win. I plan to check out your link; I just need some time today to do it.

re:egruntz--I want to hear his reread. He could still be scum trying to backpeddle on the doc claim now because it put him in a sticky situation. Of course, BC could have also just been an idiot who was pissed at the game and boned the town.

Again hohum, there is no rush until we sort this matter our fully. I don't like Charnel dismissing the possibility of BC/egruntz being scum immediately because of a fake doc claim. That makes no sense. A Charnel lynch today wouldn't be a bad idea either.

[VP Baltar]

Actually one thing I notice upon reread was that Charnel never even made direct mention to the doc claim after it was made. Charnel, what were your feelings on it? Did you believe it? Why didn't you address it directly?

[yabbaguy]

Charnel's defense of BCgruntz is suspect. The "sorry, try again" statement is irking me.

Seeing as now we *do* have to factor in town stupidity with our claim, my suggestion, lynch Char, investigate gruntz.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not into directing the cop anywhere. But lynching Charnel isn't a bad idea. Hohum, thoughts?

[Octupis]

Regarding BloodCovenent's claim, isn't a possibility that he is a vanilla townie and he claimed doctor to protect the real doctor. Vanilla townie is obviously much less of a loss so if BloodCovenent could convince the scum that he was a vanilla townie he would save them from death. His behaviour and lack of "breadcrumbing", which I admit is a new concept to me, point to the contrary of this but never the less it is a possibility. I think it is quite unlikely but I thought I would post it none of the less. He has not done much scumhunting and now replaces, which doesn't strike me as the actions of an innocnet townie.

Charnel's defense of BCgruntz is suspect. The "sorry, try again" statement is irking me.

Seeing as now we *do* have to factor in town stupidity with our claim, my suggestion, lynch Char, investigate gruntz.

A thought just crossed my mind. egruntz could be playing a very smart game here, if he is actually the doctor and BloodCovenent was telling the truth, it would cause a lot of Wifom for the mafia on whether or not to risk their night kill on a claimed doctor/vanilla townie. This proposal could have merit as both Charnel and egruntz are suspected scum so if one dies today and the other gets investigated, we go into tomorrow with an awful lot of information.

I won't commit to a vote just yet as I would like to be more confident before considering doing so and would also like a votecount

I'm not into directing the cop anywhere. But lynching Charnel isn't a bad idea. Hohum, thoughts?

Why do you object to advising the cop on a target?

[Charnel]

Actually one thing I notice upon reread was that Charnel never even made direct mention to the doc claim after it was made. Charnel, what were your feelings on it? Did you believe it? Why didn't you address it directly?

I waited for a counterclaim. Till that point, I brought the point that I have given continiously about BC: he is a target, and I don't believe in a lynch on him. Call it a defense (yabba/VP)

one thing weird is, that without a cc, yabba calls be suspect for defending BC

while not being on the wagon himself

vp/hohum/muzzz did it, IIRC.

Yabba's directing the cop is not town. Not in any way.

@hohum: as a newby, I once undid a uncc'ed copclaim when I replaced. So egruntz could be in the same position as me. In that situation are two things different: I replaced a newby, and he claimed in a very wrong way.

There was little wrong with this claim, and Egruntz did not need to make himself scummy by reclaiming.

therefor, I would like more yabba lynch, he is directing mislynches, while trying not to be too obvious, and staying off wagons. If I have time tomorrow, I make a case on him.