Mafia 96 - Murder in Emerald City (Game Over!)

[molestargazer]

Whoops, forgot to respond to this.

His predasessor was also quite a bit of a lurker(more so than me)

Well, he obviously was lurking because he got REPLACED.
That isn't a point against me.

[Wickedestjr]

@SerialClergyman - Who are you top five suspects?

[SerialClergyman]

Wicked, asking for 5 scum suspects is over the top, given it's most likely that there's only 3 scum left in the game. At the moment I think we can afford to be a little more considered than another spray and pray list.

To give you an idea, I think Namtam is the scummiest based on his own posting (not looking at gamestate.) His posts ride on other people's work, which is something I've never liked, and his targets have been suspicious. From the latter stages of D1 - He voted KK for much of D1, then VP Baltar at the end of D1 and through D2 until he voted rofl in the same post he says he's convinced ckool is scum and never unvotes. Each time he voted he gives either little reason or uses the reasons other people have made. I'm going to re-read him further when I have some more mafia time.

I would be extremely surprised if at least 1 of KMD, rofl and Xyl were not scum. I think each of those players are interacting with each other in such a way that at least one of them is looking to manipulate to gain an advantage. I think if rofl is scum he would be vermillion, and that would make Xyl probably vermillion with him. I explained why I think there may be a link between those two on D2, but essentially it's due to Xyl taking suspicion off rofl via a meta argument that he then seemed to contradict. KMD has done a few things to tweak my radar, some of which I posted in the post above (U-turn on rofl + mentioning neighbor for zero reason).

I have a lot of nulls due to meta or lurking. I think that Achilles is being prodded as we speak and could well be replaced. Lowell's meta excuses his low post count/content but makes a read hard.

Why do you ask, Wicked?

[Hayker]

@mole:

2) Sorry, that's how I play. Like it or lump it.

I'm unsure of what this mean's exactly.

Also I don't consider my vote an omgus vote. I have much better reasons than omgus. Now the vote does come from the fact that you voted for me, but the reason isn't because I think you suck for voting me.

[molestargazer]

#2 is regarding this:

don't like the way he always seems to be catching up.

The fact is you are voting for me because I voted for you. If I hadn't attacked you, you wouldn't be voting for me right now. That's OMGUS.
I highly doubt you could honestly say you would've voted me anyway prior to my post.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked, asking for 5 scum suspects is over the top, given it's most likely that there's only 3 scum left in the game. At the moment I think we can afford to be a little more considered than another spray and pray list.

To give you an idea, I think Namtam is the scummiest based on his own posting (not looking at gamestate.) His posts ride on other people's work, which is something I've never liked, and his targets have been suspicious. From the latter stages of D1 - He voted KK for much of D1, then VP Baltar at the end of D1 and through D2 until he voted rofl in the same post he says he's convinced ckool is scum and never unvotes. Each time he voted he gives either little reason or uses the reasons other people have made. I'm going to re-read him further when I have some more mafia time.

I would be extremely surprised if at least 1 of KMD, rofl and Xyl were not scum. I think each of those players are interacting with each other in such a way that at least one of them is looking to manipulate to gain an advantage. I think if rofl is scum he would be vermillion, and that would make Xyl probably vermillion with him. I explained why I think there may be a link between those two on D2, but essentially it's due to Xyl taking suspicion off rofl via a meta argument that he then seemed to contradict. KMD has done a few things to tweak my radar, some of which I posted in the post above (U-turn on rofl + mentioning neighbor for zero reason).

I have a lot of nulls due to meta or lurking. I think that Achilles is being prodded as we speak and could well be replaced. Lowell's meta excuses his low post count/content but makes a read hard.

Why do you ask, Wicked?

I was wondering if you had abandoned your Achilles case.

[Hayker]

OMGUS strikes me as a different meaning than strictly voting because someone voted you. There are many many reasons to vote someone because they voted you. It's called a countervote, and OMGUS is simply one type of countervote.

You're correct, I wouldn't have voted for you before your vote, because you didnt stand out to me at the time. That doesn't mean I'm voting you in an OMGUS fashion, my reasons for voting you are my own, and will be revealed when the reason has been fufilled, which should be long before you are lynched(if you are even lynched)

Also, I may as well explain all the side comments I make. I make them to deal with a possible issue before it arises. Now often is causes other issues, but issues generate discussion, no?


......mind games.

[Wickedestjr]

Kmd, how come you didn't vote rofl until Khan did? If you've already answered this, please tell me the post number.

[Namttam]

A few players have expressed suspicion of me although I haven't really seen any real argument made except for SC(who I will address below). It was mentioned that I was suspicious for appearing to buddy with Mastin. I made a bad read on Mastin. I felt all his bullshit was just making him an easy target for people to attack. Yes he looked bad by the end of yesterday but I was uncomforatble with lynching a claimed power role when there were still 2 killing factions that were likely to target him even if he was scum. If people have other reasons for their suspicions of me or questions let me hear them.

I think the little wagon on rofl yesterday has a good chance of finding scum. I'm not ruling out rofl from being scum, but I think that the last cerulean could well try to use his gambit as a reason to attack him (you're prepared to die via vig so we're going to kill you is a damn stupid argument). Of the two, mosestargazer made his point loudly and clearly and put his money where his mouth is, which I have always found pro-town. Namttam however was pretty weasly, and switched after a poor case on VP he had been riding since the day before, when he took up some reasoning of mine against VP.

That's enough to earn my vote.

vote Namttam

Complete misrepresentation? I was actually suspicious of rofl because of his wanting to lynch Mastin when a claimed role-blocker and his not wanting to lynch KK because he was a claimed miller. That didn't make sense to me. I never once used rolf's gambit as an excuse to attack him. I almost feel like this is too obvious a scum tell to be real but it will earn you an

FoS:SerialClergyman

. Please come up with a new reason for your vote on me.

It doesn't make sense to me for rolf to have bussed Mastin. Mastin was a roleblocker for his team which was already down a doc. rolf could be on the other scum side but there is no clear evidence of that.

I have to back off my belief that KK is scum. Since he was attacked by both maf factions for his claim it is highly unlikely he is apart of either one. Since this conclusion did not jive with my previous one I reanalyzed my previous argument and found a flaw in it. I didn't account for the nature of the game of mafia. I don't think I've seen a role description for a miller that actually states that the miller will flip as town. Therefore, if the mod resent a miller pm to KK which did not contain this information, the mod was implying that either KK was just a regular miller or it was something only the mod got to know. These are alternate conclusion to my logic for why KK must be scum. Since I have alternate conclusions I cannot conclude KK must be scum which now jives which now jives with my conclusion that KK is town based upon him being attacked by both mafia factions. I made a mistake and I apologize.

(I'm gonna post this now since I see there is a new post from SC but I will get more suspicions out soon.)

[Namttam]

To give you an idea, I think Namtam is the scummiest based on his own posting (not looking at gamestate.) His posts ride on other people's work, which is something I've never liked, and his targets have been suspicious. From the latter stages of D1 - He voted KK for much of D1, then VP Baltar at the end of D1 and through D2 until he voted rofl in the same post he says he's convinced ckool is scum and never unvotes. Each time he voted he gives either little reason or uses the reasons other people have made. I'm going to re-read him further when I have some more mafia time.

Wait your voting for me based on my posts but you haven't re-read me? I don't post that much. I shouldn't be a difficult re-read. I've explained my reasoning for KK and VP, and my reasoning iirc, was not like anyone else's at all. I never said I was convinced ckool was scum I only said it looked likely. Because of my town read on ckool before zaz'z flip I held off on being certain, which is pretty clear since I didn't vote for ckool. If you haven't re-read me than where are you pulling all these things from, memory? Let me know if you have better reason's for your vote.

(Next post I'll get back into my suspicions.)

[Kmd4390]

Kmd's U-turn on rofl has me utterly confused. I've never seen someone make that kind of extreme flip. Kmd - you very much glazed over your reason for your transformation - perhaps it's not significant to you but it's really significant to us. Could you please post the full paragraph you removed and point out the bad logic? At the moment, you've gone form being prepared to die yourself for a chance to get rofl killed to ignoring that he was on both wagons in your bandwagon analysis.

I don't remember what the bad logic was. The important thing is why I changed my mind. His actions don't make sense as scum. I don't see him bussing his last buddy with so many players still alive, including two opposing scum. And I don't see him offering to die as scum who is unsure of Mastin's actual alignment. It just doesn't make sense unless he is extremely ballsy and actually did bus.

There is scum on the MM wagon. Likely more than one.

I remember voting because it was MM or no lynch

, and Hayker voted later than I did. That means that we can find scum in the following list:
Serial
Wicked
Rofl
Lowell
Faraday

That is one of the main reasons why I voted MM too. I think that Lowell might be a Vermillion. He has been acting strangely and wanted Mastin lynched.

Um, no. I'm not buying that you placed the second vote out of eleven solely to avoid a no lynch.

Kmd, I don't understand why you are voting me. For being on both wagons? You also have me listed as scummiest on your big catch up post. Care to elaborate on that? Notice that the only dead people that were on both wagons were ckool and VP. They were both innocent. So you are just assuming that I'm scum? Doesn't make sense to me.

First, I have a gut scum read on you. My gut wants me to vote either you or Nam. Second, my analysis assumes that a townie like MM is scumbait. Scum love players like that. Easy lynches. There is no way no scum voted him. Also, Mastin can be looked at the same way when looking for Vermilion. Cerulean probably avoided the Mastin wagon. So not only can I conclude that you are scum, but Vermilion as well.

In my previous post, when I said "big catch up post" I meant to say "big analysis post". Sorry.

Just my way of categorizing the end of Day 1 voters.

Not sure I like Kmd's mega-quick flip from thinking Rofl is obvscum to thinking he's town, and listing me as possible scum for voting him on DAY 2, when Kmd himself still thought Rofl was scum, iirc.

Rofl's play is scummy. But the way he played the Mastin lynch would be retarded scum play. Rofl isn't retarded, so he's town.

The reason for suspecting you is what I said above. It's not that the votes on Rofl were bad. It's that scum want to capitalize on it, and likely did. This is more true with larger wagons though.

I would be extremely surprised if at least 1 of KMD, rofl and Xyl were not scum.

If you're right, it means Xyl is scum. I haven't ruled that out.

Kmd, how come you didn't vote rofl until Khan did? If you've already answered this, please tell me the post number.

Didn't realize until then that I hadn't. I had already planned to vote him. Just never did, I guess.

[Namttam]

Hayker's case on mole is weak and it doesn't matter if he denies it, it is omgus. Also, I can't accept the mind games talk as a defense of his actions. It is a sidestep around mole's reasoning for his vote, an attempt at misdirection.

Kmd's play today hasn't sat well with me. My gut tells me he's scum and my brain is telling me it too. His flip on rolf looks like him try to distance himself quickly from a failing push which made no sense in the first place. I loved how kmd posted the analysis of both day's vote counts to pursue scum put the only person it made me most suspicious of was kmd. I think the chances are pretty high that kmd would be scum. Also, this

If Rofl was scum with Mastin, it would make sense for him to say shoot me if Mastin is scum and shoot him if Mastin is town. Just sayin'.

I don't remember what the bad logic was. The important thing is why I changed my mind. His actions don't make sense as scum. I don't see him bussing his last buddy with so many players still alive, including two opposing scum. And I don't see him offering to die as scum who is unsure of Mastin's actual alignment. It just doesn't make sense unless he is extremely ballsy and actually did bus.

FTR, I called it that Achilles was gonna lurk. Hopefully we can get a replacement.

[Xylthixlm]

WickedestJr looks worse and worse the more he posts.

molestargazer and SerialClergyman look town.

No, I'm not scum, thanks for asking.

[Xylthixlm]

One of the reasons that I think my idea could make sense, is the fact that all games have mind games within them. Mafia is a particularily good example of a game where mind games come in all the time. In fact, mafia is one giant cluster**** of a mind game. Mind games can be done in many, many different ways. One particular mind game, is for a "good" player, doing a "bad" move. This often makes a once terrible move, into a glorious Solar idea(cookie for referance). I play witht the assumption that mind games will come into play from many different angles, because mind games tend toi be very effective. Well, if done correctly anyways. Some times they crash and burn, but hey, every mind game has a downside.

Either Hayker has gone down the rabbit hole and is having tea with the Mad Hatter, or this is brilliant bullshit. I'm not sure which.

[Kmd4390]

Nam, I still stand by my statements that Rofl was scummy. The only reason I've backed off is because his stance on ckool's kill makes no sense from a scum standpoint.

[Xylthixlm]

I have this feeling like a few people aren't posting:
Achilles
Lowell
curiouskarmadog
Faraday

This post is a note to myself that they're the ones to look at if I want a lurker hunt.

[Kmd4390]

I have this feeling like a few people aren't posting:
Achilles
Lowell
curiouskarmadog
Faraday

This post is a note to myself that they're the ones to look at if I want a lurker hunt.

Lowell is probably scum. Maybe Faraday too.

[curiouskarmadog]

Updating from page 48 (before Mastin’s lynch). Some of this is a reread some is not. Typing as a read, but knowing Mastin’s alignment now obviously is going to taint opinions.
Even reading ckool knowing he was the vig I am getting a scum vibe off him. Read (skimmed) him again after VP’s post (1203). Don’t know if that is his play style or was by design…but not important now.

At this point in the reread (1205).

-=Vote Count #33=-

Mastin (4) - roflcopter, Xylthixlm, Kublai Khan, curiouskarmadog
roflcopter (3) - Hayker, Kmd4390, molestargazer
VP Baltar (2) - Mastin, Namttam
ckool5000 (2) - VP Baltar, Wickedestjr
Hayker (1) - Lowell

Not Voting (5) - Achilles, ckool5000, Empking's Alt, Faraday, SerialClergyman

9 to lynch.

Votes swell on ckool SC (1206) KK (1220) Hay (1223) Xyl (1228) this doesn’t mean much I guess, because I thought that ckool was scummy yet, but over rofl’s point (1164) about mastin I find it strange. I also find it sort of hard to swallow that people are now saying today that rofl was bussing a partner (over an opposing team?). Will get to that again in the reread….but rofl’s point single handedly swayed my vote back on Mastin. With a partner already down, why would rofl bus another?
==
another side note:

I'm really doubting that Empking's Alt is even reading this game.

he never does. he is in a hundred games and he only pays attention to those that he has a decent role. he is a horrid player and that is why I NEVER play with him. the only reason I replaced into this game is because I owed the mod. a karma thing.

==
Ugh, I hate rofl’s vote of ckool (1237). Appeal of emotion vote over your previously stated point of mastin? I was on your side until this…..though I still doubt you are buddied with Mastin…unless something else happens later.

..so ckool claims, votes fall off.

==

unvote, vote: mastin

ckool: if mastin flips scum you should kill kmd tonight, if he flips town you should kill me

ugh. Don’t like this post. If you are town, how is this protown to promote yourself for a vigging? Also if you really believed you were going to be lynched anyway, why assume that Mastin will be lynched today over you?
==

I think the thought of auto-vigging two people who agree ot be auto-vigged is probably not in the best interest of the town, given the only people who agree ot that are likely to be town.

What if we had ckool target mastin, and mastin roleblock him? That'd go some way to working out if anyone was lying.

Whoa what? This is worse that rofl’s post!?.......you next post just saved me typing out a paragraph.

SerialClergyman is town. Bad idea, but he's town.

Why's that?

He came up with a plan and quickly realized it was bad. I don't think he'd have done that the way he did as scum.

Why? And why are you so quick to right him off?
==

I believe that ckool is the vig.

Unvote: ckool

Empking and Zaz were both voting KK the whole game. Zaz turned out scum, so;

Vote: Empking's Alt

Why this vote over Mastin at this point (1283)
==
I like faraday’s point about Hay’s vote of Ckool (1289)

==

empking's alt is a good person to vig if ckool lives to vig again tomorrow

Ok that is just poor play now. Why is KMD and yourself out at this point? (1304)

==
Today starts post 1339.

Hay’s post (1349) that rofl and Mastin are scum partners is just ridiculous. I could see him (rofl) being Cer Mafia, but the fact that doesn’t seem to factor in your vote screams Vermillion.

Scummiest post today.
==

btw, now that we've had members of both scumteams trying their hardest to get khan lynched, can we finally agree that the guy is town and stop even entertaining the notion that we'll ever lynch him, ever? kthx

Qft

==
I approve the hayker wagon.

Not understanding KMD’s reversal on rofl or why he thinks Hay is town.

==

@SerialClergyman - Who are you top five suspects?

What a strange question? Why SC? Why 5? This sort of seems like a post designed to look like someone is scum hunting but is not.

Why do you ask, Wicked?

I was wondering if you had abandoned your Achilles case.

bullshit meter is going off. Why did you care about SC's case when there are tons of other stuff going on right now?

What are your current thoughts on rofl? Hay? KMD? If he didn’t mention Achilles..what would that have told you?
==

sorry this post is so long...condensing 10+ pages into one post.

Vote coming, but would like answers for questions, posed to those in this post.

additional question KMD, anything that helped your gut read on Hay?

also Mod, has Achilles picked up his prod?

[Kmd4390]

I actually forgot about thinking Serial was town because of that...

I've been over my reads on Rofl and Hayker several times.

additional question KMD, anything that helped your gut read on Hay?

More than likely.

[curiouskarmadog]

nothing you want to share? or you dont know?

[Kmd4390]

Don't remember.

[Kublai Khan]

Ugh, my big catch-up post got accidentally deleted.

Main point summary of it.

A) Either my read of roflcopter is wrong, or the bandwagon has no traction.

Unvote

B) I have no idea why Kmd4390 is reading Hayker as town. (or curiouskarmadog for that matter)

C) Namttam's huge turn about and mega-convinient timing of the noticing of the flaw in his logic is suspect.

D) Achilles needs to post or be replaced.

E) I'm good with the Hayker bandwagon.

vote: Hayker

(5/7 I think)

[Kmd4390]

What is the case on Hayker?

[Kublai Khan]

What is the case on Hayker?

Pretty quickly:

1) Newbbing it a little too hard for someone with a few games under his belt.
1B) using poor scumtells

2) buddying up to Mastin

3) lots of fence-sitting and taking up both sides of arguments

4) "Go ahead and lynch me" attitude

5) Very confined Day 1 play (Only interacted with Mastin, roflcopter, me, JOhnny Rotten/VP Baltar, MafiaMann, & ckool5000 (quarter of the player list))

6) Lurking-> Roughly 35 posts in first 40 pages.

7) 44 in iso could be construed as doc-fishing

8) Blabbering on about mind games

9) iso51: "Mastin was obviously investigated by johnny rotten I believe." <- Seems to be guessing a lot as to who the town's power roles are. Note the contractictory use of "obviously" and "I believe" in the same sentence.

10) "feeling out" cases on others {Asks Faraday about his thoughts on Lowell before going after molestargazer}

[curiouskarmadog]

interesting...not one of those points is why I am voting Hay.