Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

Mastin (6): Zachrulez, GIEFF, Benmage, VP Baltar, Debonair Danny DiPietro, SensFan
GIEFF (2): Battle Mage, Kmd4390
Cephrir (1): jammer
Battle Mage (1): Mastin
jammer (1): Kairyuu
Zachrulez (1): SpyreX
SensFan (1): alexhans
Benmage (1): camn


Not Voting: Cephrir

8 to lynch

[GIEFF]

A few questions of mine back on page 9 slipped through the cracks - here they are:




Sensfan - Top half of Post 219]

Battle Mage - Bottom half of Post 219] - do you still think Mastin is town?

Alex - Post 222


------------


Apparently, a lot of the games of Cephrir's wiki don't actually have Cephrir in them... does she have an alt I'm not aware of or something?

Here are the ones I did find:

[mrow]Game[col]Alignment[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / DayMini 564[col]Scum[col]1[col]0.5Mini 717[col]Scum[col]1.1[col]0.3Final Fantasy VII][col]SK[col]0.6[col]0.2Mafia 69[col]Town[col]0.5[col]0.2Mafia 82[col]Town[col]0.7[col]0.1Consulmaker[col]Town[col]0.3[col]0This Game[col]?[col]0.7[col]0.3


So from a meta standpoint, Cephrir actually lurks more as town than scum. I don't know how you can play averaging just a couple hundred characters a day, but it is what it is.

----------
An analysis of players who have voted for me:

jammer

jammer - Vote: GIEFF(Post 57)
jammer - Unvote: GIEFF Vote: Cephrir(Post 205)

Still not sure what you meant in post 57, jammer. You didn't follow up at all, really.

camn

camn - unvote Vote :GIEFF (Post 65)
camn - UNVOTE(Post 146)
camn - Vote : Gieff(Post 150)
camn - UNVOTE vote: Benmage(Post 305)

No real explanation from camn for two completely toothless votes.

VP Baltar

VP Baltar - Vote GIEFF(Post 113)
VP Baltar - Unvote, Vote: Mastin(Post 237)

Some explanation, based on me attacking jammer. But nothing after this.

Battle Mage

Battle Mage - Unvote, Vote: Alex Hans(Post 111)
Battle Mage - Confirm Vote: Alex(Post 143)
Battle Mage - Unvote, Vote: Gieff(Post 214)

This is my favorite. He unvotes Mastin because he is assuming alex is scum, which he claims means Mastin is certainly town. He CONFIRMS this vote. And then switches to me, ignoring the question about what this means about his feelings about Mastin's alignment. And, of course, no explanation whatsoever for his vote for me, although he provided oodles for alex.

SensFan

SensFan - Vote: GIEFF(Post 209)
SensFan - Unvote, Vote: Mastin(Post 270)

Claims it was because I misrepresented him. Ignored my response to this claim. No other follow-up before hopping on the Mastin-wagon.

Kmd4390

Kmd4390 - Unvote, Vote GIEFF(Post 320)

No explanation.



So, the question is - why would five separate players vote for me, most of whom do so without any decent reasoning (I believe Baltar and jammer's reasons, but they provide very little follow-up), and NONE of whom do so strongly thinking I am scum (as evidenced by their lack of pressure and subsequent switches off of me).

Or is this all just a coincidence?

[alexhans]

Camn: Yes.

GIEFF: telling the truth means I'm not lying about my motives. That I'm honest about the NK speculation and all I've said. I was not talking about the number of scum. That was another BS attempt from BM to twist my words to try and make a case (Wich he seems to have dropped for now ignoring his previous certainty?). I don't know the number of scum. I assumed 4 and will keep assuming 4 until this game ends. Then I'll see if I need to acknowledge someone for saying 3, 2 or do I get to laugh at everyone who said 4 was highly unlikely.

So, the question is - why would five separate players vote for me, most of whom do so without any decent reasoning (I believe Baltar and jammer's reasons, but they provide very little follow-up), and NONE of whom do so strongly thinking I am scum (as evidenced by their lack of pressure and subsequent switches off of me).

Or is this all just a coincidence?

Now... do you understand my thoughts on behalf of mastin's waggon? I don't see reasons but a lot of going with the general choices so people look like they're scumhunting when you're doing nothing...

[camn]

GEIFF.. are you implying a 5-person scumteam?

[alexhans]

Camn... quit acting like a child... if you're town... you're being most unhelpful with ridiculous questions...

[VP Baltar]

In fairness alex, I'm wondering what the hell GIEFF's point is as well. I'd like to hear him answer his own question.

[GIEFF]

There is no need to get personal, alex - that does not help the town.

Of course I am not implying a 5-person scum-team, camn. I am asking why 5 different people would do that, as I don't know, and I don't think it is a coincidence. And it is actually 6 people, not five - I left out kmd.

VP Baltar - I noticed it once kmd voted for me without any reason, so I went back to see what other people who voted for me said. I am mostly looking for clarification from those 6 people, reasoning, explanation, whatever. Don't you think it's odd that 6 different people voted for the same person without providing much reasoning? At least you and jammer gave reasons, but I thought they were pretty weak, and neither of you really pursued it.


If I were to answer my own question, as you suggested, it would be that I suspect that there are two scum among those 6 people, especially considering how mutually supportive camn, Sens, and BM have been.


------

Now... do you understand my thoughts on behalf of mastin's waggon? I don't see reasons but a lot of going with the general choices so people look like they're scumhunting when you're doing nothing...

No - that is quite different. There are LOTS of reasons for the Mastin-wagon. Lack of scumhunting, trying to clear himself, lurking, meta-reasons, and a lot of people have discussed those reasons.

And alex, please answer my question in Post 222. What truth were you referring to?

[VP Baltar]

Alright, GIEFF, I can feel where you are coming from then.

[Benmage]

I support ANY lurkerlynch.

YET. Unlike you, you never jumped on lurkers like broomhead and don't vote for them now.

True

Using other people's arguments to suspect people...

Being so unhelpful you're not a good asset to town. You could hide forever behind this crappy attitude. Not willing to let that happen.

Vote SensFan

That’s a weakass vote. Sounds like a policy-like vote.

And Sensfan, I don't care how amazing you think you are. What you are doing is completely useless to the town, and completely scummy. You KNOW this, so what you are doing is pretty much just trolling. You are perfectly capable of telling your reasons, but you refuse to, because you want to keep your image.

Please play the game.

This is useless to a person who chooses not. Although I do agree with you that it is frustrating and I’m all for policy lynching useless players… It is like asking Zwet to post more than one-line, or do anything good for that matter..Null. With Sensfan he hopefully reads both sides of an argument, and agrees with a position he finds strongest in finding scum. I don’t have a history with him so I couldn’t tell you if he at least votes well or not.

'hop off Mastin's dick'.

NutSoCaps

I like that I have inspired some interesting articulation.

The one good point about him may be that he seemed to be trying to autoclear himself.

Yes his self-aggrandizement was quite scummy.

I'm not going to add even more noise to this thread by making ridiculously long cases, we have enough of that already. Instead, I'll make sure I'm on record as to who and when I suspect people, and why I suspect them. That way, there's a clear record of my suspicions, and a track record of my votes and such.

In future days, when there is less noise, it will be more appropriate for everyone who is alive to be making large cases.

This is actually a nice post/point of view. I hope the “why vote” isn’t cause of the “gut”.

The only time I can remember ever getting scum Day 1 is on lurkerlynches... This is my least favorite part of every game.

I agree Day One can be brutal, and more often than note a townie gets lynched. That is why we policy lynch/lurker lynch day one huzzah!

W.t.f? Why race this push? What will the claim accomplish? Or what are you looking to gain from it?

Oh God! You've got to be kidding me...

THIS GAME IS VANILLA AND SCUM ONLY! LETS STOP MAKING BULL POSTS AROUND IT. WE ALL KNOW THE SETUP

I’m confused. Are you agreeing with me? Because I’m the one who said everyone will just claim VT and the rush rush rush was foolish. I saw the trap…but honestly..lol

No, he’s going with his “gut” cause that’s how he plays!

Are you confortable with letting people just say gut or QFT for a case?

That part was a sarcastic mockery if you didn’t get it. I obviously don’t think going with ones gut is a sufficient case and I’ve never run into a simply QFT/QFT/QFT case…but I’m sure in that scenario I’d want a bit more elaboration.

And you're not investigating anyone at all Alex, you're suspecting people for being suspicious of Mastin for perfectly valid reasons, and spending more energy defending him than would be considered normal for a player who isn't supposed to know anything more than their own alignment.

QFT

Though given what I know about your feelings on lurking, I do find it VERY strange that you are defending Mastin right now.

Agree, Mastins excuse is a weak one imo.

So, these past few pages give me something to work with. I now know that I DON'T like alex or GIEFF. I DO like Sens, Camn, and Benmage.

No WAY KMD!! You have to assume I’m scum….am I growing on you??

Get it out of your system... I'm not defending Mastin... (Not entirely, at least ) I'm still in awe about the way in wich his waggon formed.... Night Speculation is not wrong IMO but no one jumped at me for saying it.

It was also the way he speculated it. Disregarding himself.

[Benmage]

Oh an I'm uptodate. I make those wall posts to sorta follow through and cathup, although it usually isn't a big play style of mine. I keep falling behind in this game .

[Benmage]

So looking at the game there are some people who aren’t nearly as vocal as others. Namely Cephrir and DDD.
I’d like to hear more from Cephrir as he has four posts all game. The first and second ones, those with some substance aren’t that bad. Overrall a null tell on him leaning town/scum cause there isn’t enough information. I do like this post:

Has wouldn't be my choice with players I know; you can auto-clear me from picking the kill, as I would definitely try to lead as mafia and would have to be overridden by someone who I respect highly as a player and recognize the skill of to not nk another pro-town player.

Now I'm not sure whether this was entirely serious or not, but if it was... yeah. Incidentally, it's also suspicious if it was entirely serious.

He was being serious. Him trying to rule himself out is indeed, suspicious.

DDD has a few more posts on the table than Cephrir, nothing to substantial. Again I think he posts generally well opinionated posts but isn’t active enough or strong enough to get a read-up him being town or scum.

I do like that he has been consistent:
Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:51 pm

I'd also be comfortable voting Mastin for pushing mediocre theories early and claiming they cleared him and then going MIA as well.

Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:24 pm

I noticed that as well, if nothing else it establishes that NK speculation is something scum-Mastin is willing to use to push his agenda. Couple that with VPB's meta-find and I'm ready to push Mastin above Cephrir on my scum list.

Unvote; Vote: Mastin

Basically I want more from these fellahs, less from others. A post by Battle wannabemage seems overdue and well Mastin zzZzzZ

[camn]

Of course I am not implying a 5-person scum-team, camn. I am asking why 5 different people would do that, as I don't know, and I don't think it is a coincidence. And it is actually 6 people, not five - I left out kmd.

If I were to answer my own question, as you suggested, it would be that I suspect that there are two scum among those 6 people, especially considering how mutually supportive camn, Sens, and BM have been.

I don't think that that is a logical conclusion.
Given that you accept that all 6 people are not scum together.... the only logical conclusion is that YOU are doing something that elicits this response, right? (barring coincidence....)

How would 2 scum in the group produce the effects you have observed?

[camn]

I support ANY lurkerlynch.

YET. Unlike you, you never jumped on lurkers like broomhead and don't vote for them now.

True

Also.. can we get some logic going in this game, please?

Are you two saying that it would make sense for ME AS SCUM to AVIOD voting lurkers?
Really?
Cuz I often get called SCUMMY for VOTING lurkers!

Just restating things you see, even though they are not really scummy or significant at all....... this is just IIoA, and is one of Tar's Tells.

So.. did either of you have a POINT when you mentioned this? Are you saying I should be voting a lurker now? are you saying that I am scum because I am NOT voting a lurker?

The reason I voiced my support is because, if I see a filthy lurker at L-1, I will hammer, and I don't want you guys saying it "came out of nowhere" just because you are too lazy to check my meta.
HOWEVER, I have been catching shit for lurker-tunneling lately.. so I am trying to cool it a little.

[GIEFF]

Are you two saying that it would make sense for ME AS SCUM to AVIOD voting lurkers?
Really?
Cuz I often get called SCUMMY for VOTING lurkers!

Of COURSE that makes sense. Lurkers are bad for the town. Why would scum want to remove them?

This also shows that you are tailoring your behavior to what you think others will perceive as scummy.

The reason I voiced my support is because, if I see a filthy lurker at L-1, I will hammer, and I don't want you guys saying it "came out of nowhere" just because you are too lazy to check my meta.
HOWEVER, I have been catching shit for lurker-tunneling lately.. so I am trying to cool it a little.

This is also a very revealing quote into camn's mindset this game.

Note how she says she is only voicing support because she is afraid of pressure on HERSELF - she is NOT voicing support because she wants to catch scum. This is what Mastin was guilty of, focusing on proving your own innocence to the detriment of catching any scum.

And notice the scummy, wishy-washy "HOWEVER," leaving whatever behavior she decides to pursue as a possibility. "I will lynch lurkers, however, I may not." She is so worried about being caught in an inconsistency later, she can't help but throw that HOWEVER in...

And the "I suck at scumhunting on day 1" excuse is bogus. At least try. There are 12 pages of accusations to analyze - you have NOTHING?

Oh, and I promise not to kill you this game, ok!?
I wanna be frenz againz!

You say this after broomhead didn't post once, and kmd has done nothing yet. If you are town, how can you promise not to want to kill him until you determine how scummy he is? And if you are town, why do you say you won't kill him as if you have a lot of control over who dies?

Were you scum in either of the two games in which you grudgekilled kmd?

FoS camn

-------

Given that you accept that all 6 people are not scum together.... the only logical conclusion is that YOU are doing something that elicits this response, right? (barring coincidence....)

No, of course that's not the only possible conclusion. 4 people voted me without stating a reason - why asume that whatever reason they had was the same one? What do you think that reason may be? I think your reason was because you were upset and sort of OMGUS-y, but I'm completely lost on Sens, BM, and kmd's votes.

How would 2 scum in the group produce the effects you have observed?

I don't think that 4 townies would vote for the same person without stating reasons. If you have seen this happen before, please link me.

[camn]

Were you scum in either of the two games in which you grudgekilled kmd?

Yes, and a vig in one.

And I don't consider 'lynching' 'killing'.

So.. why are you answering for Alex and Benmage?

[GIEFF]

So.. why are you answering for Alex and Benmage?

Was your question meant to reveal scummy behavior on their part? I did not think so, and as I think it revealed YOUR scumminess, I brought it up.


camn, can you post a brief rundown of your thoughts on each player in the game?

[GIEFF]

And I don't consider 'lynching' 'killing'.

If so, than saying "I promise not to

kill

you this game" looks a lot like a scumslip to me.

[camn]

lynch me then.

I am starting to get pretty suicidal with the level of reason in this game.

[camn]

camn, can you post a brief rundown of your thoughts on each player in the game?

And no. Maybe this weekend.

[GIEFF]

lynch me then.

I am starting to get pretty suicidal with the level of reason in this game.

Are you referring to me thinking you made a scumslip?


If you don't think lynching counts as killing, how else would you kill kmd this game? Why would you promise not to, not knowing his role?


If my logic is so horrible, these should be very easy questions to answer.

[SpyreX]

Ohh this game.

KMD comes in and we prove... that he's not retarded. Which I could have told you without all the SECRET PLANS. Well done.

I really want to review the difference in how Zach seems to be talking in regards to Mastin as the wagon grows when I'm back on firm ground. (note this is a note to note I must note this)

Good lord I'm tired.

[camn]

not just you.. . though your level of logic is sub-par as well.

My comment to KMD is an ongoing conversation between us. The fact that you see it as a scumslip is just a byproduct of your tunnel-vision regarding me. It is no more scummy than me 'buddying' was. . . but you seem to want ANYTHING I do or say to be scummy, regardless of any kind of rational, logical analysis.

Anyway... I am done with your questions. They hardly make sense, and add to the NOISE vs. signal in this game.
Lynch me if you think I am so scummy.
I think it is all you trying to build a crap-case, and thus I don't think you have the guts to actually push my lynch for any of it.


--------ps
for example:

Was your question meant to reveal scummy behavior on their part?

You never even let them answer the question before you asked this.
How does that help the game at all? (don't answer, that's rhetorical.)


------------

PPS
Spyrex.. please come home. We need you. Badly.

[GIEFF]

My comment to KMD is an ongoing conversation between us. The fact that you see it as a scumslip is just a byproduct of your tunnel-vision regarding me. It is no more scummy than me 'buddying' was. . . but you seem to want ANYTHING I do or say to be scummy, regardless of any kind of rational, logical analysis.

Claiming I am not being rational does not me irrational.

Here is what I know:

I know that you have grudge-killed kmd twice.
I know that both times you did so, you used a power (vig or scum) you would NOT have as a vanilla townie
I know you don't think the word "kill" applies to lynches.
I know you said you wouldn't kill him this game.


So please, answer the following two questions.

• If you are town, you don't have the ability to kill him - why would you promise not to?
  
• If you are town, why did you promise not to kill him, as he could be scum?

If you are so worried about the lack of logic in this game, then please - provide some. Who do you think is scum, and why? Logically.

[camn]

So please, answer the following two questions.

• If you are town, you don't have the ability to kill him - why would you promise not to?

Thats the whole joke.

I CAN'T KILL IN THIS GAME!!!

[*]If you are town, why did you promise not to kill him, as he could be scum?[/list]

I know you don't think the word "kill" applies to lynches.

You see the lack of rationality to your questions? You persist in asking a question that you have already answered.
There are no Vigs in this game.
If I am town and he is scum..

I CAN'T KILL HIM

.
Since I am, in fact, town.. REGARDLESS of Kmds alignment...

I CAN'T KILL HIM

.

That is the basis of my promise.

[GIEFF]

Thanks.