Newbie 800 ~ Mafia: The Reality Show (Game Over!)

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Post Post #350 (ISO) » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:08 pm

Post by ric »

Raskol 345 wrote:There's nothing wrong with gut feeling exactly...
A)
its' not the kind of thing that you should come out with as evidence, or expect to convince other people, you know?
B)
It's a starting point, maybe, but nothing more than that.

C)
What do you mean, careful with tossing it around? Do you seriously think that last post of onion's was really just a case of misnaming?
A) ok but i think there is a place for it in public discussion, no? even in a case. its a difficult thing for the reader to put in its place given any given case that utilizes the emotional reaction but i still think it has place.
B) i disagree. in live mafia sometimes its all you have and i dont think internet mafia erases it completely. personally i find that slips (revealing information on accident) dont happen anywhere nearly as much on the internet but i do think that a visceral kind of read has a place
C) no and im kind of waiting to see if he responds to anymore of it. its suspicious he didnt tackle it.

i mean. i guess we just have to agree to disagree and chill with it.

raskol:

what are your thoughts on haylen and echo and nikanor?

onion:

what do you think about nikanor and echo?
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Post Post #351 (ISO) » Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:55 am

Post by Nikanor »

ric wrote:at the same time i dont want to be JUST defending onion

for the record as of right now my top 3 suspicious list
1 onion (by far for stated reasons)
Vote: ric
for fencesitting, and defending the person who is number one on your suspicions list. By defending someone who you say is most suspicious it seems to me you are trying to defend a scumpartner while being able to say, 'see? He was on my scumlist the whole time' if he is lynched and flips scum.
looking at the end game i find myself a little suspicious of nikanor for being super lynch hungry in a touchy situation and then starting to pre-paint others as being suspicious merely because they werent voting or were voting for SOMEONE ELSE.
Yeah, I was lynch-hungry because I thought day was going to end within hours. My mistake.
But that said, if the day is going to end within an hour, any person who wasn't willing to change their vote to avoid a no-lynch deserves a little suspicion at least.
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Post Post #352 (ISO) » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:41 am

Post by ric »

wierd OMGUS move. im gonna be pretty busy at work this week. i work tonight. unless i get called off im working 5 nights and a couple days. ill be on here but maybe not much. just saying.

nikanor:

i thought i already defended myself for this(?) of course onion was subverting the city and so he was number 1 on the list. i vouched for him off my read. that doesnt mean i didnt find him suspicious.

i believe right after that post you quoted i then go on to vote for sydeney because i was done defending my position on onion (as i had been doing all thread and i believe i said this ('now that im done defending my position im gonna do some ish') round about the post you quoted) and state that i found onion less supicious later when he wasnt being nearly as suspicious as sydeney at the time.

so i realized that it made no sense to not act on my own read and i started reading the sydeney posts to check if my suspicion on him was warranted, as he was my number 2 from somewhere in the beginning-middle of thread. in late game he was acting even more suspicious than early game and so i voted for that man.

fos nikanor
for trying to inflame some ish from the last day cycle on an OMGUS move and for reasons already stated such as trying to aggressively corral people into doing something you want to do merely because you feel it most advantageous to do so when they clearly felt differently with a legitimate basis, etc etc

so nikanor, what do you think about raskol, lynch, echo and haylen?
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Post Post #353 (ISO) » Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:27 pm

Post by Vi »

Vote Count:

onion (1) ~ Raskol

ric (1) ~ Nikanor


Not Voting:
Lynch, Echo, Haylen, onion,
Nikanor,
ric
[size=0]Raskol 1 | Lynch 2 | Echo 2 | Haylen 2 | onion 0 | Nikanor 0 | ric 0[/size]
--With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
--Deadline is Thursday, July 30 2009.
Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.
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Post Post #354 (ISO) » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:18 pm

Post by Echo »

I'm not gone, I'll make a summary of my thoughts so far tomorrow. Too tired right now to think >.>
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Post Post #355 (ISO) » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:46 am

Post by Eliminate »

onion wrote:Lynch hammered early thus removing my ability to post before the lynch. this brings a tad bit of suspicion on him, which i feel is justified for the situation.
I hammered because Nikanor implied the deadline was within a few hours at that time. And also since both Haylen and sideney were there, if any time was a good time to hammer, it was then. I disagree with you on how it's suspicious, discussion was going nowhere anyway, and sideney remained anti-town and unhelpful.

Still awaiting for a real post to be made by Echo and Haylen.
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Post Post #356 (ISO) » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:50 am

Post by Haylen »

will be with you in a sec. Been dragged into IRC all afternoon.
Seriously. Read your role PM before playing.
I am sorry if you have to prod me, I have absolutely no concept of time.

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Post Post #357 (ISO) » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:30 am

Post by Haylen »

I think lynch is acting pretty scummy.
- Says he though both targets were town, and then says Onion should have been voted off yesterday (who he said he thought was town)
- Advocates policy lynches. Not only is insisting on a policy lynch scummy, but it is also poor form.

GUYS: Policy lynches are never a good reason to lynch people. Whilst I agree that we dont want a lurker at lylo, it is poor play to lynch someone for these reasons. It's the same as trying to get a player lynched because they screwed you over in a previous game. It doesn't focus on the objective side of the player, it focuses on the subjective side, in a way. Lurking is a null tell, depending on what meta you have on that person. Lurkers should be dealt with by replacement, not lynching (unless you're playing one of Yos' Lynch all Lurker theme games, but that's not the point). Mafia lurkers tend to be those who post just enough in a game not to get replaced - note: newbie town may also do this sometimes.

on with why Lynch is scummy...
- I'm apparently on top of his scummy list, when he has a better case on Echo, and his case on Echo is better than his case on Anticollie. Yet Echo is only 3rd on his scum list. Bussing?

- Says he was tunneling Onion. Bullcrap was he, and anyway, i thought he thought Onion was town? Also says that he's asked the town not to tunnel. That's a slip right there.

Vote: Lynch
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Post Post #358 (ISO) » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:16 pm

Post by Vi »

Vote Count:

onion (1) ~ Raskol

ric (1) ~ Nikanor

Lynch (1) ~ Haylen


Not Voting:
Lynch, Echo,
Haylen,
onion, ric
[size=0]Raskol 2 | Lynch 0 | Echo 0 | Haylen 0 | onion 1 | Nikanor 1 | ric 1[/size]
--With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
--Deadline is Thursday, July 30 2009.
Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.
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Post Post #359 (ISO) » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:57 pm

Post by Echo »

Sorry for the wait guys. I've read through the thread again and don't really find anyone *that* suspicious, certainly not suspicious enough to warrant a vote.

There are a few things I want to clear up with Nikanor though:
(299) nikanor wrote:I assume he doesn't want to lie by saying he's town. That's the only reason I can think of that someone would not roleclaim when put at L-1 on the deadline.
A townie who's got some degree of sanity wouldn't roleclaim either, right?
(310) nikanor wrote:Err, that's what I meant, sorry. Just trying to get as much posts in as possible before leaving for work, as I won't be home before the deadline.
That sounds kinda like an excuse to be not around during the deadline in case anything unexpected happened.

Also~
(330) lynch wrote:I'm aware that I hammered, but I was not aware that apparently we still had half a day or so until the deadline would have arrived (or so somebody said earlier).
(333) nikanor wrote:Yeah, time zones screw me up, too. I was under the impression the day was going to end really soon when I posted that. >_x
Can someone link me to the post which made both Nikanor and Lynch think the deadline was early? I can't find the post that implies this :/
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Post Post #360 (ISO) » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:05 am

Post by Nikanor »

Echo wrote:A townie who's got some degree of sanity wouldn't roleclaim either, right?
I don't see any reason why a Townie wouldn't claim when he's about to be lynched. Am I just missing something?
That sounds kinda like an excuse to be not around during the deadline in case anything unexpected happened.
I hate not being around for the deadline.
If a bandwagon starts on me because of someone's case against me, and I'm not there to defend myself, not being around is a bad thing.
If someone says something that is ridiculously scummy, and for whatever reason nobody else picks up on it, my not being there to point it out is a bad thing.
Also: I realise that the time at which that post was made was probably the middle of the night for you, but it was 8:00am my time. So having to go to work for the day isn't that far-fetched when you think about it.
Can someone link me to the post which made both Nikanor and Lynch think the deadline was early? I can't find the post that implies this :/
I think the post where I say that any of the four people not voting are scum if they post without voting is where Lynch is getting his implication.

@ric: I haven't forgotten your requested analysis. I'm going to start working on it now, hopefully finishing it by tonight.
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Post Post #361 (ISO) » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:26 pm

Post by Echo »

Nikanor wrote:
Echo wrote:A townie who's got some degree of sanity wouldn't roleclaim either, right?
I don't see any reason why a Townie wouldn't claim when he's about to be lynched. Am I just missing something?
Oh, you mean claiming vanilla townie. For some reason I was under the impression "roleclaim" only applied to claiming power roles >.>
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Post Post #362 (ISO) » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:43 pm

Post by Vi »

Vote Count:

onion (1) ~ Raskol

ric (1) ~ Nikanor

Lynch (1) ~ Haylen


Not Voting:
Lynch, Echo, onion, ric
[size=0]Raskol 3 PROD1 0 | Lynch 1 | Echo 0 | Haylen 1 | onion 2 | Nikanor 0 | ric 2[/size]
-Raskol is being prodded...

--With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
--Deadline is Thursday, July 30 2009.
Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.
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Post Post #363 (ISO) » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:47 pm

Post by Raskol »

Sorry, I've been caught up with other things.

Haylen---what do you mean by a policy lynch?
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Post Post #364 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:54 am

Post by ric »

nikanor wrote:@ric: I haven't forgotten your requested analysis. I'm going to start working on it now, hopefully finishing it by tonight.
thank you sir

haylen

i feel like some people believe lurking is auto suspicious and i think theres something to that. just saying. i have never seen a policy lynch used effectively but ive never seen a policy lynch happen until i started reading games on here.

yo where is everybody at right now? whats going on?
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Post Post #365 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:20 pm

Post by Echo »

I'm waiting for posts to come in >.>

I guess this is as good a time as any to ask for everyone's opinions about lynching lurkers.

The way I see it, when I play as mafia in RL games, I tend to not want to participate in anything because 1) I'm afraid of saying something scummy, and 2) I'm afraid that by fingering innocents all the time people will catch on to me. Therefore, lurking/staying silent is usually a scumtell for me, especially in games with new people. Why do some people say it's a null tell?
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Post Post #366 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:25 pm

Post by Nikanor »

Echo wrote:I'm afraid of saying something scummy
Only scum should be afraid of saying something scummy.
I'm afraid that by fingering innocents all the time
people will catch on to me.
...
...
...
...
It's a scumslip!
...

Vote: Echo
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Post Post #367 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:20 pm

Post by Vi »

Vote Count:

onion (1) ~ Raskol

ric (1) ~ Nikanor

Lynch (1) ~ Haylen


Not Voting:
Lynch, Echo, onion, ric
[size=0]Raskol 0 PROD1 1 | Lynch 2 | Echo 0 | Haylen 2 | onion 3 | Nikanor 0 | ric 0[/size]
-onion is being
peeled
prodded...

-Nikanor's vote in 366 does not count, as he did not unvote...

--With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
--Deadline is Thursday, July 30 2009.
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Post Post #368 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:29 pm

Post by Nikanor »

Nikanor's vote in 366 does not count, as he did not unvote...
Right.
Unvote
Vote:Echo
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Post Post #369 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:21 pm

Post by Haylen »

Raskol, here's a better explanation of policy lynching. I'm using myself as examples in these because my intentions are the only ones I'm sure about, and also, it probably wont mean anything to anyone if I start spouting off about other players and using them as examples. Trying to making it easy to understand.


A policy lynch is something other than logic or psychology that makes you want to lynch people for a specific action without any regard for what else they have done, generally to deter people from taking this action. Lynching somebody for reasons other than that you think they're scum. Common ones are:

- Lurker Lynch policy. This is what Lynch was suggesting, lynching somebody because they aren't contributing rather than because he thinks they're scum. Sideney and Raskol tried that with me on Day One "lynch Haylen. she's lurking."

- 'I don't like you so i'll lynch you' policy. There are some players that really wind me up, you'll get players that really wind you up too, we're a social communitee on different personalities, it's bound to happen. However, if you decide you want somebody lynched because you don't like them, that's this kind of policy. This can also occur when a person disagrees with another player based on principal. I advise you all not to take past grudges into new games.

- Lynch all liars policy. This is a policy that I really don't like but can see the use of. I get accused of lying quite a bit, but it's generally not true in my case because I tend to be a different kind of thinker to others.I don't do things the way most people do it and they see it scummy. Bit of advice: when in a game, look up more common roles - that you dont understand- first and looks the rarer roles up later. I look up the rarer roles first, forget about the more common roles and it comes back and bites me on the ass. I get accused of lying because of it, don't make that mistake. Then there's the good side of lynching liars, cause scum are people who are lying. It is extremely important (yet sometimes difficult) to realise which scenario fits the situation.

Remember, everyone on the site has their own playstyle and it's constantly developing. You may find people with the same playstyle as yours when it is distinct enough, and that's a good thing. Then there are those, who are very dissimilar but don't be tempted to lynch them just because of this. Everybody has their own thinking style, most people play using a concrete logical thinking style, mine is very abstract. I think of things from completely different angles. This is also something that you shouldn't lynch people for. Another thing, everybodies style of play has flaws. Everybodies. Not just newbies, but experienced players too. Like myself, I'm brilliant on the theory, and the pre-game organisation (such as meta) and organisation throughout the game aswell (in the form of spreadsheets. I would show them at the end of the game, but I don't now how to and i tend to be the only one who understands them anyway), but my playstyle itself can be pretty aweful at times. Especially in mini games. Learning, still learning. Bit of general advice, by all means play loads of games in Road to Rome first, but don't be tempted only play there until you feel your style of play is perfected, cause you'll suddenly realise when you go to Little Italy, or another thread, that you've only perfected yourself against newbies not against more experienced players.You have to judge when you're ready to move onto the bigger games, it's different for everybody. I mean, I played one game in Road to Rome, signed up to another one, and signed up to a mini halfway through that game. Turns out that was a little bit too early for me. Oh well, what's done is done.

Enough rambling...back to business.

Nikanor - If you can link me to the post in which Echo wrote that and give other reasons why he is scummy too, if they convince me, I will change my vote.

If you don't know how to link to a post, it's like this:

1) Next to the date and time of a post is the word 'posted', on the left hand side on this is a little orange or white symbol that looks like a bit of paper. Click that symbol.

2) On the page it sends you to, copy the early from the address bar.

3) Type in the following code in the post box (obv changing it where I direct you to, with the correct information.

Code: Select all

[url=paste the copied url here] write what you wish it to come up as here [/url]


Here's an example.

This is a link to Vi's last vote count post

As a code, that is written as

Code: Select all

[url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1766831#1766831] post [/url]


Hope you understood that.

Anyway, Onion appears to have vanished, Vi says she has prodded him, which is good.

Echo needs to post more content. As does Raskol, but I trust he is catching up, life screws you over sometimes and I accept that, so I wont push him at the moment to post. Echo, however, I will. Oi! Look alive! You too, Onion.

Oh yeah. another thing, sometimes you may come across 'special' players, they are rare on the forum, but still pop up from time to time, they like insulting people. They are called trolls, if it's after a game, in general/mafia discussing we just ignore them. If it's during a game, the best way to deal is with PMing the mod. Of course, I'm always available if you need advice on things here, but it's not allowed to be related to any games you're playing, that would be very very bad. PM or AIM, dont mind which. Helpful person, when not crabby :D

Counting through this post, it's the most times ive ever managed to go off on a tangent in one post before. At least it's a helpful tangent though.
Seriously. Read your role PM before playing.
I am sorry if you have to prod me, I have absolutely no concept of time.

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Post Post #370 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:59 pm

Post by Echo »

Nikanor's quoting (365) out of context.
(365) echo wrote:The way I see it, when I play
as
mafia in RL games, I tend to not want to participate in anything
I'm asking for opinions on why lurker lynching is bad, since it is very natural for mafia to not want to post.
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Post Post #371 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:47 pm

Post by Nikanor »

Echo wrote:I'm asking for opinions on why lurker lynching is bad, since it is very natural for mafia to not want to post.
Yeah, I realised that it was a hypothetical example after I wrote it. I decided to wait for you to respond to it before retracting my vote though, just to get a reaction, so that my foolishness wasn't TOTALLY useless. Your reaction was town enough to warrant an
Unvote
.

Lurker lynches are bad because it entails lynching someone who we cannot get get a read on, and it provides little information to the town because the lurker in question has not interacted with the town to a great extent.
On the other hand, lurker lynches are good because it's nearly impossible to get a read on them, and it's better to get rid of them before we're stuck with a lurker at lylo.
Also note that a person who lurks by playstyle is different from a person who just lurks in one or two games. A person who lurks by playstyle is more likely to be town, just because a majority of the roles handed out are town, and a bad player is just as likely to get a town role as a good player. A person who lurks in a couple games is more likely to be scum because, as you said, it is very natural for mafia to not want to post.
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Post Post #372 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:14 pm

Post by Raskol »

So, basically you don't think we should ever lynch people based on the way they play, since everyone has a different style?

I think I'm going to have to disagree. It's possible to choose and change your playstyle, and some styles are more helpful to scum than others. Town shouldn't just wordlessly tolerate playstyles that help scum (especially lurking), especially in newbie games where people need to be learning good habits.

(The only thing on your list that seems wrong to me is lynching someone because you don't like them. I agree with you that town shouldn't do that, at least, because it's the only thing on your list that has nothing to do with whether someone is scum.)
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Post Post #373 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:23 pm

Post by Nikanor »

Haylen wrote:in the form of spreadsheets. I would show them at the end of the game, but I don't now how to and i tend to be the only one who understands them anyway
Don't show off your notes. Ever. Even if the game is over. It pretty much shows everyone exactly how you think, which is definitely too much meta to be giving out to people who could be manipulative scum in your next game.
Just sayin'. C=
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Post Post #374 (ISO) » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:56 pm

Post by onion »

onion is looking alive! (sort of). i apologize for being prodded.

Nikanor is scumming it up hopping his vote on and off of Echo. however, he is voting for Ric. could you flesh out your suspicions of him more so i can have more info? i don't remember Ric attacking me much lately which does seem off from where i am in his suspicions. but that does not seems worthy of a vote. Ric questioned Nikanor, who then voted for him for not good enough reasons it seems.

Haylen is expressing suspicions of Lynch. i'm having a hard time digging through the pronouns to get at what she's saying though.

gah! every time i read this again it annoys me all over again. i'll just rant about it to get it over with.
Raskol 341 wrote:First of all: there are things I hate more than repeating myself unnecessarily, but not many. All my posts still exist, go back and read them. If you have any specific questions about things I've said, holes to poke in my posts, or anything like that, then out with them. But I'm not going to go back and rewrite everything just because you can't be bothered to go back and read.
i don't know what your suspicions are and i don't know that they are accurately reflected in your past posts. i think that having more information now would allow you to only rephrase them in more accurate ways than they were previously. repeating your suspicions and ideas lets them be well understood which is exactly what a pro-town should attempt to be. there seems to be no advantage to saying 'screw you go look it up' when you could simply answer the question in less words. gah.

ok where was i? right. Lynch. throughout the argument between Lynch and Raskol, Lynch seemed to play the voice of reason, warning against lynching without gathering more information, asking questions and getting more balls rolling. we went in swinging but didn't get to dirty all told.

Haylen puts up 4 suspicions in 357.

"- Says he though both targets were town, and then says Onion should have been voted off yesterday (who he said he thought was town)"

Prelynch he stated he thought both targets were probably town, and hammered anyway. i support his hammer because a no-lynch would still have been less useful. i'm not easily finding where he says i should have been lynched yesterday (page me?)

"- Advocates policy lynches. Not only is insisting on a policy lynch scummy, but it is also poor form."

i'm also not finding where in day 2 he advocates a policy lynch. if you are referring to the end of day 1, then yes he did, but i agree that it was the right thing to do at the time.

"- I'm apparently on top of his scummy list, when he has a better case on Echo, and his case on Echo is better than his case on Anticollie. Yet Echo is only 3rd on his scum list. Bussing?"

what? where? post number? was this from day 1?

"- Says he (Raskol?) was tunneling Onion. Bullcrap was he, and anyway, i thought he (Lynch?) thought Onion was town? Also says that he's(Lynch) asked the town not to tunnel. That's a slip right there."

yeah ok pronoun problems here. can you rephrase this so i can understand it better?

I guess my all in all objection to Haylen's suspicions is that she didn't include post numbers for me to reference. i don't want to assume she's referring to one thing when she's referring to something else so i'll wait for more information before continuing. i don't think Lynch is without suspicion, because he hammered and is sort of answering questions for me when he should not, but i don't yet see where Haylen is coming from. (the short is: Haylen might be right, but i'm not taking her word for it.)

i'm supposed to be thinking about Echo too. there is tension between him and Nikanor so i'll do them as a pair. Ric expressed some stuff about Nikanor who promptly jumped on him. then later Echo questioned him and he promptly jumped on Echo. the quote was indeed out of context and Nikanor backed off in a hurry. This doesn't say much for Echo but reflects poorly on Nikanor. Echo's 'when i play as mafia' WIFOM shall be disregarded as WIFOM me thinks. (would a scum tell us what he did when he was scum?) so i guess i think Echo measures up as town when compared to Nikanor who seems more scummy.

Raskol your disagreement with why policy lynches are bad fits right in with your lynching anti-towns theory. at least you are consistent. also you didn't answer my question so i'll repost it for you.

"does your plan ever allow for anyone to be lynched if there is someone else more likely to be scum?"

so there. my current suspicions are of Raskol for talking too much and Nikanor for votehopping.

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