Newbie 814(over!)

[Vaya]

Confirming.

[Vaya]

Place what you want to bold inside the tags .

[Vaya]

You're welcome.

[Vaya]

Vote: itacv2

For not having an avatar. Really, it would be nice of those of you who don't have an avatar to get one. It makes it easier to recognize your posts.

[Vaya]

As of right now, legomaniac's wishy-washy behavior and quickness to bandwagon comes off as a tad suspicious.

Unvote

Vote legomaniac

[Vaya]

Stop the Violence man

Vote:

No body

This comes off as anti-town. Remember, two people here are scum and its the town's goal to track them down. By opting not to vote and saying others shouldn't as well, your acting against the town. I also think its odd that after saying this, you suddenly change your mind and vote for the first person to place a vote on you.

[Vaya]

Yeah, in retrospect, it probably was just a random comment that I made too much out of.

[Vaya]

Just wondering, I know that newbie games have 1 IC and 1-2 SE. I know sam.samhorn is this game's IC, but who's the SE(s)?

[Vaya]

It took a while for the game to start, GATOR13 may not know it's begun. It's been over five day since he has posted here, I think he should be prodded.

[Vaya]

It's not like we're out to lynch anybody right now, this is just how we get the game started, get to see how players interact with each other, etc. Besides, anytime we vote, we risk killing a townperson anyway.

[Vaya]

I see no point in voting in the RVS as we could kill a citizen.

(Sorry, I was away for a couple of days.)

I don't see a point either. People who see that as some sort of scumtell are scummy in themselves.

I'm sure your referring to me when you say that. To elaborate, I wasn't saying Brandor's behavior was off simply because he didn't vote, but because he posted just to say that he was choosing to vote for nobody. To me, that looked like he was just trying to make people think that he's sympathetic towards the town. Why do you think that finding this suspicious is scummy of me? (BTW, I didn't realize that saying you were voting for no one was common in newbie games. Meji saying that did change my mind a bit on the matter.)

[Vaya]

If I wasn't clear enough earlier(in post 47), I already admitted that I was probably over analyzing his post.

[Vaya]

I believe so.

[Vaya]

No, I understand exactly what your saying, and was kinda thinking the same thing too. I think newbie games might just be a friendlier environment than your usual game.

[Vaya]

Since you asked, My thoughts on Meji's argument against samhorn.

1. I too did think that this was weird. Sam.samhorn, was there anything I said in particular that made you believe that I wasn't scum, but simply overanalytical?

2. Meji does have a point here too. It's one thing if sam.samhorn doesn't like random voting, but he hasn't done much of anything else to scumhunt in his own way. Maybe the same could be said of others, but at least their random voting has done something to get things going.

3. I do think it is a little odd that he said "make a case against me" instead of trying to make a case against someone else. Wouldn't you think the latter would be more helpful for tracking down scum, assuming he's town?

[Vaya]

has, Requesting Vote Count

[Vaya]

Although I do agree with you about his behavior(which is why my vote is on him), I doubt he'd lie about being away for a few days. He wouldn't have much to gain from it anyway, even if he were scum, because we could just question him when he gets back.

[Vaya]

Unvote
Vote: itacv2

I see what samhorn's talking about when he say's your scummy.

[Vaya]

1. I'll admit that I wasn't thinking of itacv2 as particularly scummy until samhorn pointed it out, but I can agree with what someone else says without being scum. itacv2's case against lego had a lot of odd reasoning and, to me, kinda feels like scum going after an easy target(since he had the most votes and a FoS on him). His reaction to samhorn's accusation was even worse, with him suddenly finding samhorn scummy and making threats like 'if you lynch me, you'll be lynched next.' That's why I placed my vote on him.

2. I never defended lego, I just pointed out that one thing was an odd thing to find suspicious. I even agreed that his behavior was weird.

[Vaya]

Could you answer meji's question, because I want to know too. You've been saying that lego and atma are scumbuddies all this time, but now suddenly samhorn is scum too. What exactly has he done to make you believe that?

[Vaya]

If GATOR13 comes back again without posting anything of content, I'm in favor of his lynch Day 1.

[Vaya]

Vaya you seemed to have a good reason to vote lego but then you defended him (you really did) and you never pressured Lego. Why??
Can you elaborate your case on Itacv2 for me?

Lego's behavior is really odd, with the way he seems to do nothing but follow and mimic what everyone else says. At first, when I voted for lego, I thought he was being scummy, but I'm starting to get the impression that this might just be the sort of person he is. I still think there's a chance that he's scum, but itacv2 seems scummier. (BTW, I was not defending lego, I only pointed out that being away for a few days is not scummy behavior, you're misinterpreting my post).

As for itvac2, there are a lot of things he's done that makes him seem scummy. With lego's odd behavior, if he's not scum, he is a perfect scum target. When itvac2 first voted for lego, he claimed it was because he didn't want 'an easy manipulated around when it come to identify mafia', but then he suddenly thinks he's scummy.

Then the case he built up had plenty of bad reasoning. He claims lego going away for a bit is scummy, that him not accusing a certain person is a sign of them being scumbuddies(this early in the game, when plenty of people have yet to accuse each other), and criticizes him for a vote from the RVS not having reason behind it.

Once he was accused of being scummy, instead of attempting to refute it, he just gets upset and accuses samhorn of being scum for seemingly no good reason. I believe he does this because he knows that lego isn't really scum and that he can't defend his false case against him.

(Also, could someone tell me how to iso read posts?)

[Vaya]

Got it Meji, thanks.

And I'm a guy BTW Sudai.

[Vaya]

Also
it seems to me that you are assuming that lego is town and that means what itvac2 is doing is scummy. Am I reading that correct?

Not quite. If lego is town, itvac2 is likely scum. I still have suspicion of lego, but of the two, I think itvac2 seems scummier. If itvac2 were to flip town, I would go back to suspecting lego more.

[Vaya]

Yes, we should lynch day one. Keep in mind everyone that if we don't reach 5 votes, no one is lynched.

Mod, Requesting Vote Count

[Vaya]

No lynch is a very bad idea. You're misinterpreting the chart, because it assumes we start at night 0 and mafia gets a kill every night, it's saying that we have a higher chance of winning when we come into the day with an odd number of players. Also, the information we get at a death is very valuable, such as the person's alignment, and who was voting and not voting for them. So it's better if we lynch every day.

[Vaya]

We should hurry up and hammer itacv2. We only have a day left until deadline. I want a claim, but we shouldn't let time run out waiting for it. Manzcar your questions don't really relate much to itacv2's lynch, there's no reason you can't ask them Day 2.

[Vaya]

I don't like lego's behavior in this game. He's done little more than parrot off others' words. It especially bothers me how when he was asked why he was voting itacv2, he didn't give any thoughts of his own, but only repeated what I said about him. It seems like he may have just been taking the opportunity to lynch someone who was suspicious of him, and not that he truly believed itacv2 was scum. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt yesterday that this might just have been his usual behavior because I thought itacv2 was scum, but I want to here more of his own thoughts this day. For now,

Vote:legomaniac1128

[Vaya]

Anyway, I have compiled a mental list that ranks you guys in order of who I find most to least scummy. I can't decide if this is a good or bad thing to post though, as I hate to make it the basis for a mafia kill. Opinions?

I would say don't post it. I don't think we have much to gain from it and as you said, it gives the mafia an idea who they should kill.

Vaya, what do you think of the bandwagon of Itvac now that he has turned town? What do you think of Sudai and the hammer vote?

As i said before, lego's reasoning for voting him bothers me, but nobody else being on the wagon particularly bothers me. I don't see any problem with Sudai's hammer, deadline was approaching and we needed the vote to lynch.

[Vaya]

I just want to point out that lego is at L-1, so the next vote will lynch him. No one else should vote him yet, even if he is scum, we shouldn't stop discussion this early.

Sam, you haven't said much yet. Like Manzcar, I want to hear your case against atma. I also want to hear you're opinion on lego and the bandwagon against him.

[Vaya]

Vaya said

Unvote
Vote: itacv2

I see what samhorn's talking about when he say's your scummy.

really what was sam talking about? I see no evidence that sam brought. What do you see? again no evidence.

You misunderstand what I was saying. I wasn't saying that I agreed with sam's points(because he didn't give any). I was simply saying I agreed with the notion that he seems scummy. Mainly, it was his reaction to the accusations against him that made vote him. If he had simply calmly asked why people thought he was scummy, and showed a willingness to discuss it, I may have unvoted him.

Vaya explains his vote

1. I'll admit that I wasn't thinking of itacv2 as particularly scummy until samhorn pointed it out, but I can agree with what someone else says without being scum. itacv2's case against lego had a lot of odd reasoning and, to me, kinda feels like scum going after an easy target(since he had the most votes and a FoS on him). His reaction to samhorn's accusation was even worse, with him suddenly finding samhorn scummy and making threats like 'if you lynch me, you'll be lynched next.' That's why I placed my vote on him.

2. I never defended lego, I just pointed out that one thing was an odd thing to find suspicious. I even agreed that his behavior was weird.

Again what did sam point out? what are you agreeing with which point of sam's did you agree with? His case had odd reasoning it looks prettey well thought out to me. What was odd about it? Would you find it scummy if someone looked at your case against someone and said your scummy and gave no reasons?

I didn't want to mention specifically what my problem with his case was before, because I wanted to see if lego would respond to the points himself. My issues were with his points 4 & 5 that you mentioned above.

4. his going to a cottage give him an excuse to lurk

I would like to think that most players, scum or not, wouldn't fake outside conditions like this in order to give themselves an advantage in the game(and he wasn't away for more than a few days at a time, so it wouldn't have been much of an advantage anyway). Lego doesn't seem to me like the sort of person who would use such a tactic, even if he is scum. I really disliked how he was trying to take lego's being away, and making it into something scummy.

5. his vote on Meji has no evidence

It was a pretty meaningless vote made in the RVS, of course it didn't have any evidence behind it. Again, I didn't like how he was trying to make it into something scummy.

Really, his whole case to me felt like he was trying to take lego's every little action, and make it into something scummy. He did have some valid points, but overall, it felt like he may have just been looking for reasons to find lego scummy, just for the sake of getting him lynched. But to make myself clear, this was a small reason for suspecting itacv2. If he hadn't reacted so badly to the accusations of him being scum, he may have been able to convince me that he had a legitimate case against lego, and I probably would have gone along with it.

[Vaya]

I just realized something big as I was typing up that last post. I think I discovered who the scum pair are.

First off, I'm confident enough that I am right, that I am willing to reveal that I am the cop. Night one, I got a guilty result on lego. I'm telling you all this, because a lot of what I'm saying is based off the knowledge that I know lego is scum.

As I was thinking about his random vote on Meji, I remembered something odd that he did before, in post 76.

I agree with Meji, but keeping my vote for the sake of random voting!!! If Sam has anything to say, it would be appreciated, so we can tell whose scum and who isn't.

Finger of Suspiscion: sam.samhorn

At this point in the game, all he ever did was go around, agreeing with what everyone else says and voting with them. He never had any problem before with changing his random vote. But for some reason, when it came to samhorn, lego suddenly decides he doesn't want to jump around with his vote anymore. This is because he didn't want to place a vote on his scumbuddy. Then I also started to realize something about samhorn, and his post 114.

You are scummy. I will vote you once GOTOR posts something or he gets replaced.

I think I realize what he might have been doing with this post. If samhorn provided reasons that he thought itacv2 was scummy, he probably would have just argued the points instead of getting so upset about the reasonless accusations. I think he purposely accuses itacv2 of being scummy without explaining why in order to get a bad reaction out of him and make him look scummy to everyone else. He was probably trying to help his scumbuddy out by getting one of his attackers lynched.

I've also realized that all game, samhorn seems to have completely neglected to comment on lego's scummy-looking behavior, or say anything to or about lego for that matter. It's as if he's trying to distance himself from lego.

Something else that I now realize is really odd is his declaration that he figured out who both of the mafia are, itacv2 and atma. I would think that when making such a claim, part of you're reasoning would include their interactions with each other. But when itacv2 flipped town, this didn't seem to affect his belief that atma is scum at all. It seems to me that he must have already known itacv2 was town.

Finally, I've noticed at Day 2, everyone except samhorn has been attacking lego or talking about how scummy he is. I could be wrong, but I don't get the feeling that any of you guys are scum busing your fellow scum, especially atma, who samhorn is accusing of being scum. In fact, samhorn seems to be lurking Day 2. He may simply not be here, but maybe he's been put into a tough spot with everyone suspicious off his scumbuddy and asking for his opinion on things.

Simply because we know lego's scum and we can lynch him any time knowing this, I think we should lynch samhorn first just to be safe.

Unvote: lego
Vote: sam.samhorn

Thoughts everyone?

[Vaya]

Trust me, there are so many reasons it would be suicidal of me to fakeclaim cop with a guilty verdict in a newbie game if I were scum. For instance, if lego were town, you guys would know I am lying scum as soon as he's dies. If lego were scum, you guys would eventually become suspicious of why I were still alive after getting him lynched after awhile. And either way, if a real cop were to counterclaim, I would be left in a very bad position no matter what. Do you really need me to elaborate further? Really, this claim would be too risky for me to make if I were lying scum. There's little point in lynching lego just to prove my claim.

I have a few reasons to want sam lynched over lego today.

One, lego is no threat to the town at this point, there's no reason to rush to lynch him. It would be better to focus on finding the other scum, at least for today.

Two, it would be better to lynch samhorn in order to gain info on his alignment, while if we lynch lego, we don't learn anything new(aside from confirming that I'm a cop, which honestly, doesn't help me out any, as I already know that).

Lastly, although it may not be a logically good reason for the town, it's likely that I'll die tonight after claiming cop. I would prefer to be alive when we lynch samhorn, assuming we do, since I'm the one who made the case against him. I would hate it if samhorn managed to talk his way out of being lynched after I died, and then ended up being scum.

If it makes you feel better, we can lynch lego Day 3 regardless of how samhorn flips. That was my plan anyway. Is there any reason you can't wait a day?

[Vaya]

I understand though you're point though about the possibility of him being a roleblocker. It would be the only reason as of now I would even consider going along with lynching lego Day 2 over samhorn. But still, samhorn could be a mafia roleblocker too, so the argument doesn't hold much weight with me. I want to hear what the rest of the town thinks of my case against samhorn and whether we should lynch him or lego Day 2.

[Vaya]

Actually I disagree the only way to know if you are telling the truth is to have discission and then lynch Lego

Also just because you claim cop does not mean you are not scum bussing your partner. The want to lynch an unknown is not in the best interest for the town.

As previously explained, it would be very stupid of me to make this claim if I were lying. If I were honestly trying to bus my partner like this, the mafia would be guaranteed to lose if there was a real cop and he counterclaimed or were killed off at night.

I disagree that wanting to lynch samhorn is not in the town's best interest. I think we'd gain more from seeing him flip today than we would lego, seeing as we already know lego is scum(unless you honestly want to doubt my claim). Explain the urgent need to lynch lego today, because right now, I'm not convinced that he's the better lynch target for today.

[Vaya]

@atma

You may be right saying that it was a mistake to claim cop. However, I think your missing the point of why I claimed. It wasn't to confirm lego scum, it was to solidify my case against sam and to (hopefully) get the town to trust my case more because some of you seemed to think I was scummy.

As for you're question about the setup, town either has one power role, two power roles and a mafia roleblocker, or just none and there's a mafia roleblocker.

That being said, I am still on the fence about whether sam is scum or not. It is possible he is simply busy with his life. I'd like to see what he has to say at the very least before we make any effort at lynching him.

Keep in mind, my case against samhorn has little to do with how little he's posted. It's more about his interaction with lego(and lack of it). Of course we should listen to what he has to say before lynching him.

The point I'm trying to get across that is not being understood is that if we mislynch today, then lynch lego tomorrow and he flips scum, we're left in a three person lylo. But if we lynch lego, he flips scum, then mislynch tomorrow, we're in the same situation. I would prefer to go after the other scum today while I'm still alive. I understand why you would want to be safe and test my claim, because if I'm lying and you go along with what I'm saying town loses, but I've explained multiple times why I wouldn't risk making such a gambit if I were scum.

If you guys are really against lynching lego Day 3, I won't waste any more time objecting to what the majority of the town wants. I'm still not in favor of it though. Either way, town should still lynch samhorn though, whether its Day 2 or Day 3.

[Vaya]

You got it now atma. I understand the risk to the town, which is why I won't argue anymore if you guys want to lynch lego lynch first. But from my point of view, since I know I'm definitely not lying, I would prefer it if we lynched sam first. Either way, I want to hear from samhorn before we end the day.

[Vaya]

Lego, I stated that I was the cop on the last page, post 247.

And I want to point out that lego standing up for samhorn like this strengthens my case of them being scumbuddies.

[Vaya]

Vaya Lego following Sam looks to be perfect. He stands up for Sam he votes with Sam he follows Sam he's like Sam's lapdog. That doesn't feel right at all. No offense to Lego meant but he is either playing a very bad game or pretending to be playing a bad game. Lego is wanting everyone to lynch Sam. Why? You have to ask yourself why?

I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest here. Are you say that lego's purposely acting like sam's buddy to get him lynched? Its a possibility, but I get a much stronger impression that he's not faking it based off of how he's played thus far.

Also, you've yet to give a good reason why we must lynch lego today. All you're saying is that we must lynch the confirmed scum because anyone else we lynch could be town. But as I already explained, there's no difference between lynching scum today and mislynching tomorrow, and mislynching today and getting the confirmed scum tomorrow.

[Vaya]

Most of your reasons don't mean much to me, but 3 is a good reason that I admit I hadn't considered. I guess its alright to lynch lego today because of the possibility of mislynching a doc.

About lego buddying up with sam, its impossible for us to know whether or not he's trying to trick us. Just don't get the impression that lego buddying up with samhorn is somehow evidence that samhorn may be town. For all you know, that could be just what lego wants you to think.

[Vaya]

It bothers me that samhorn wants to end the day so quickly before addressing any of the concerns I have with him(or presenting his case against atma that he promised for that matter). I can't help but feel that he just wants to address it tomorrow so that he can speak with his biggest accuser dead.

Manzcar, if you feel comfortable ending the day now, you can go ahead and hammer.

[Vaya]

That's what I was thinking too, that if he won't talk now, there's little we can do about it. That's why I don't have a problem with you ending the day if you want. Waiting about 12 hours sounds like a good idea though, to give anyone else a chance if they want to say something before the day is over.

[Vaya]

Any comments that are directed at lego's actions I can't comment on because I'm not lego. I'll just skip those points in your accusations

Fair enough, I can't expect you to address such points. But the fact still remains that lego contradicted his usual behavior to avoid voting for you, and that's still a point against you, whether you can be expected to argue it or not.

That's a fair point, but wrong; throughout my mafia career, I've always made posts, as town or scum, that make blanket statements "X is scummy," "Y is town," before ever explaining the reasoning behind it. Also, don't forget that you agreed yourself Vaya that itacv2 was scummy with that post.

To be fair I was trying to get itacv2 lynched actively but that's because I thought he was scum. Truthfully, I haven't had a good enough read on legomaniac all game and it wasn't until this cop claim that won me over.

If you say that's how you usually play, I guess I'll trust you on that one. Still, it's odd that trying to get itacv2 lynched is just about the only action you've taken in this game thus far, and its an action that really benefited scum(particularly lego). Your accusations probably caused lego's lynch to be delayed a day, by taking pressure away from him and putting it on his attacker.

You say that you thought itacv2 was scum, based off of what? Going by what you said earlier(post 202), at the point you first said he was scummy, all that he said that bothered you was that he was willing to back down if given a good reason. I get why you thought it was scummy, but I don't see why it was more worth commenting on than lego's behavior. I don't see why you would just give lego the benefit of the doubt that his scummy behavior may have been the result of being an inexperienced, confused townie and that it wasn't worth commenting on, but you immediately go after itacv2 for his single comment.

No, I never use interactions between players when building a case on someone, because there are so many ways scum could out-WIFOM town with this that it's ridiculous. I thought atma was scum and I thought itacv2 was scum, that's about it. Don't know what else I'm supposed to say here.

Again, fair enough. I don't have much problem with this answer.

I didn't get a good read off of lego, simply because he could be confused town just as easily as he could be scum, so I didn't say anything on it. I haven't had a good enough read on him to say anything either way.

This really bothers me. You're the IC of this game, isn't it your job here to help out newbies? If you thought lego might have simply been a confused townie, why didn't you say anything to him about how scummy he was making himself look?

I find it suspicious that, with as much attention as he's been getting, you didn't find anything about him worth commenting on at all.

[Vaya]

Hey I never said this case wasn't legitimate. I just can't defend myself here in this regard.

I wasn't trying to imply you were saying that it wasn't legit. I just wanted to make sure it was clear to everyone that it was still a legitimate point.

That comment to me implicated him as scum in my eyes -- I ended up being wrong. Meanwhile lego didn't do anything to me to implicate him as scum or town in my eyes because I was waivering on him being town or scum and therefore had no comment.

That's really the only defense I have -- I feel like I'm stuck in an unfortunate situation here.

I don't feel as if my job is to 'guide' the newbies to an optimal mafiascum playstyle, since my playstyle tends to be different than what mafia theory and the wiki tell me I should coach you as. I'm exposing you to a different playstyle than what's expected in an IC in a newbie game, because when you start playing larger theme games, you'll run into more eccentric players like myself and you should be prepared for those players as well.

Of course getting the more formulaic players is a valuable experience in and of itself but I'm assuming you'll play more than one newbie game.

Now with that said, I don't think it's my job to guide everyone on how you should or shouldn't be playing. If I had any sort of inkling that lego was in fact a confused, newbie townie -- which I didn't, I've said numerous times that I was totally on the fence about whether or not he was townie or scum -- I would have said something about it. Unfortunately I felt itascv was the scummier player, and I acted on it that way.

So, when you're not sure whether or not someone is scum, you usually don't bother commenting on them? I don't get then why itacv2's one comment, which easily could have been that of a townie who simply didn't have too much faith in his case, made you sure enough that he may have been scum that you would call him scummy. But lego, who wasn't even attempting to scumhunt or even bring forth any original thoughts of his own, wasn't even worth commenting on?

[Vaya]

Just thought I'd let you guys know, I'm going to be gone for a few days, starting Friday. I'll be back at sometime on Sunday. I probably won't be able to check this game for the time that I'm gone.

[Vaya]

But back to your earlier point, no, I don't usually bother commenting on them. I haven't commented on you, for example. I prefer to keep mental notes on players to myself so that I can pull material out and make a case on someone without them having time to adjust or react to it. For example, if I blurted out in the middle of day one, "Vaya, I think that post might have had some scum motives, I'm going to keep my eye on you," I'm giving you an opportunity to adjust to that comment and quit doing what makes you scummy.

Could you explain to me how this isn't just what you did with itacv2?

[Vaya]

Alright, I think I'm done talking with sam for now. I still think there's a good chance he's scum. I find it odd that he didn't find lego scummy enough to even comment on, while itacv2 was, but I can't argue with what he claims he found scummy and what he didn't find scummy, or what he believes he should comment on. I'm also not forgetting lego's odd interaction with sam(his not voting him earlier and the 'I don't think sam's scum' comment, though to be fair, the latter may have been intentional buddying to make him look bad).

There is one other little interesting thing I've noticed, but I didn't bring it up earlier because, I admit, it could mean nothing. But I wanted to mention it anyway, because I thought it was interesting at least.

Manzacar: I find it odd who atma was going from very little to a lot of content, almost as if he's trying to blend in. He's first couple of post were minimal, then jumped to three paragraphs each, trying to blend in. I'll see whaht else I can find.

I find nothing scummy about sam. He's been adding a fair amount of quality to the game, and has been looking town. We should also consider little things such as atma's jump from a lot of content to little content. To me, he looks scummy.
Vote:atma

Notice what lego says about atma here. Doesn't it seem oddly similar to what sam says about atma in his case, how atma is 'talking a lot but saying nothing' like he's trying to 'bullshit the town into thinking he’s town'. I don't know why he particularly would have, but maybe he mentioned to lego why he was planning on going after atma. And maybe lego felt it was a good idea to go after the same person as his scumbuddy.

Anyway, I admit that the above is just speculation on my part. If you guys want to end the day and carry on with discussion tomorrow, you can go ahead and hammer lego now. I'm fine with it at this point, I don't have anything else important to say.