Newbie 814(over!)

[atma]

sorry guys, i'm super busy until tomorrow evening hopefully, so I am here and I will try to get back to you tomorrow.

[Manzcar]

In light of Sam actually talking a hammer will not happen. I need to read a d digest everything. I will post after work.

[sam.samhorn]

Fair enough, I can't expect you to address such points. But the fact still remains that lego contradicted his usual behavior to avoid voting for you, and that's still a point against you, whether you can be expected to argue it or not.

Hey I never said this case wasn't legitimate. I just can't defend myself here in this regard.

If you say that's how you usually play, I guess I'll trust you on that one. Still, it's odd that trying to get itacv2 lynched is just about the only action you've taken in this game thus far, and its an action that really benefited scum(particularly lego). Your accusations probably caused lego's lynch to be delayed a day, by taking pressure away from him and putting it on his attacker.

You say that you thought itacv2 was scum, based off of what? Going by what you said earlier(post 202), at the point you first said he was scummy, all that he said that bothered you was that he was willing to back down if given a good reason. I get why you thought it was scummy, but I don't see why it was more worth commenting on than lego's behavior. I don't see why you would just give lego the benefit of the doubt that his scummy behavior may have been the result of being an inexperienced, confused townie and that it wasn't worth commenting on, but you immediately go after itacv2 for his single comment.

That comment to me implicated him as scum in my eyes -- I ended up being wrong. Meanwhile lego didn't do anything to me to implicate him as scum or town in my eyes because I was waivering on him being town or scum and therefore had no comment.

That's really the only defense I have -- I feel like I'm stuck in an unfortunate situation here.

This really bothers me. You're the IC of this game, isn't it your job here to help out newbies? If you thought lego might have simply been a confused townie, why didn't you say anything to him about how scummy he was making himself look?

I find it suspicious that, with as much attention as he's been getting, you didn't find anything about him worth commenting on at all.

I don't feel as if my job is to 'guide' the newbies to an optimal mafiascum playstyle, since my playstyle tends to be different than what mafia theory and the wiki tell me I should coach you as. I'm exposing you to a different playstyle than what's expected in an IC in a newbie game, because when you start playing larger theme games, you'll run into more eccentric players like myself and you should be prepared for those players as well.

Of course getting the more formulaic players is a valuable experience in and of itself but I'm assuming you'll play more than one newbie game.

Now with that said, I don't think it's my job to guide everyone on how you should or shouldn't be playing. If I had any sort of inkling that lego was in fact a confused, newbie townie -- which I didn't, I've said numerous times that I was totally on the fence about whether or not he was townie or scum -- I would have said something about it. Unfortunately I felt itascv was the scummier player, and I acted on it that way.

[Evil Sonidow]

Unvote.

I've been updated on the discussion but I haven't much to add to it. I like Vaya's case and I believe he's to be trusted. Sam's going to have a hard time defending himself.

About my 'lurking', I'm back to studies so I'll probably not be posting a lot and keeping up with everybody so fast. Just letting you know.

[atma]

Alright sorry this took so long. I haven’t had any kind of detailed post in forever.

Here, way back in day one, is what originally piqued my interest in atma:

vote GOTOR13

clearly, GOTOR won't be contributing anything and it seems weird that he would bother to stop by but not say anything remotely useful. so I would be okay with this lynch.

But, also I would like to FOS Vaya, his last few posts just don't go over well with me, one is him using someone else's reasoning for his own vote without adding anything. Also, he was defending legomaniac, which seems odd. I'm pretty sure legomaniac can defend himself, just seems odd.

This post in and of itself didn’t seem too harmless but I made a mental note to watch where atma would go with his vote of GOTOR. There was a difference in reasoning between when I voted for GOTOR and why atma did; mine was a clear policy vote because GOTOR didn’t seem interested in participating at all and I voted him with the message “either post or get replaced, please.”

Atma seemingly used hit vote on GOTOR as a legitimate post for lurking, which I’ve never bought into. So I kept watch. Here’s what came after:

My vote was on GOTOR was not because of his lurking, but because of his posting without providing any sort of content. Which appears to be the same reason as you, except I didn't make a lame excuse such as calling it a policy vote.

why would you not want to lynch gotor13 just cause he might be replaced? fact of the matter is, you base your vote off how someone is currently, not a future possibility. its just not logical to think like that.

I understand what are you saying but consider this: lurking is sometimes considered to be scummy, so what if GOTOR was lurking but covering it by saying he was busy and away etc.? that was my point. but it was made sort of a moot point when mr. moderator just told us he is going to be replaced soon. eh.

Later he admitted that he didn’t know GOTOR was just inactive and vanished out of nowhere and unvoted him. But his reasons for voting him seemed really scummy-opportunistic, as he fruitfully attacked a lurker and tried to use it as a legitimate case.

What I was trying to say essentially, was that lurking is not a reason to NOT vote somebody. Voting for a lurker does not make me scummy, voting solely for the reason of lurking is scummy. Which, as I stated, was not the reason I voted him.

What really got me was this post though:

First of all,

Unvote GOTOR13/Manzcar

Now that he has been replaced, no reason for my vote to be on him at the moment.

Atma why do you want to lynch a lurker? Do you think this is pro town? Who is your top suspect and why?

As I tried to explain in a previous post, it wasn't so much the fact that he was lurking, but more the fact that he dropped by to say he was around and almost immediately turned around and said he was leaving, without providing even a single tiny snippet of content. To me, it just seemed like he was trying to lay low and not draw any attention to himself. That being said, as his replacement, you are seeming much more pro-town, so perhaps it is good he was replaced.

And yes, I consider voting someone I find to be suspicious pro-town.

As for my suspects, I just did a quick reread of the topic to try to gather my opinions again. Most people seem to be agreeing that itavc is being scummy, and I think I will have to agree as well. Manzcar and Sudai's posts highlighted this fact quite well. As I went back through the topic and reread itavc's posts, each subsequent post seems to get more and more scummy. He started by casting suspicion on me and legomaniac but soon jumped ship and OMGUS voted sam.

To me, it seems as we grow suspicious of itavc, it is shaking his confidence. His posts are overflowing with emotion and he is making threats and such. If you were really town, what would you have to be so afraid of? But he hasn't said anything in a bit, so I want to see his response to some of these newer posts before I vote him.

As for secondary suspicions, I think most we can all agree that legomaniac jumping votes all over is scummy, but I'm not sure whether to think of that as bad play or him being scum yet. I want to see him post some real content soon as well, cause he hasn't really said much of anything of interest.

I also slightly fos Vaya, as I said earlier for reasons I posted in post 124. But this could also be me over-analyzing things, so I'm not too worried about it yet.


IN SUMMARY:
itavc seems scummy, mostly because of his OMGUS vote on sam, and at this current moment I would be in favor of his lynch. I would also be okay with a legomaniac lynch.

Itavc, legomaniac, and evil sonidow all really need to make some new posts with some good content IMO. We hardly even know anything about Evil Sonidow, so I'm interested in seeing how he reacts.



Also, one more thing. Correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't it be advantageous for us to lynch on day 1? If so, the deadline is this saturday and so personally, I would like to get alot of this stuff that is hanging around all sorted out by then.
[/b]

You reread a thread and don’t come up with anything other than generalized observations? Recaps of what’s happened? No top scum suspects, nothing you find at all? This is a classic example of “talking a lot but saying nothing.”

I haven’t been able to get as good of a read on his day two posts since I’ve been busy/away/catching up the majority of today, but I’ve noticed quite a bit of words that don’t wrap around a particular point, as if he’s talking in order to contribute or make it seem like he’s not lurking.

Where did you get the idea that I didn't come up with anything and had no suspects? Clearly, if you actually read the post you quoted, I listed several people I found suspicious and reasons why I thought so. You, sir, are trying to use my words against me.

Here’s a quick example:

Alright, I understand your point a little better now Vaya. From your point of view, it does make sense to lynch your suspect for the other scum, Sam. However, unfortunately, for the rest of us, we should be a little hesitant due to the fact that you could be lying, leading to a near instant town loss. You give us reasons why you would not fake cop, and while I am inclined to believe you are the real cop, it may not be best to follow you necessarily.

Here's what it comes down to I think. If we want to play it safe, to make absolutely sure we won't lose anytime soon, then we want to lynch lego today to see if he is scum and Vaya is really cop. There is a slight chance I suppose that Vaya could be lego's mafia buddy, but it seems very dangerous for Vaya to claim cop with the potential of there being a real cop.

I don’t really like how he’s taking one sentence and turning it into three; it’s like he’s trying to bullshit his way through a college research paper. Except with this I feel he’s trying to bullshit the town into thinking he’s town.

Really, you're basing your entire argument for why I am scum based on the fact that I tend to be a wordy poster. Considering you don't even know me, how are you to know this isn't just the way that I type. The reason I type so much is because I type steam-of-consciousness as I think it, so what you see tends to be my scattered and unorganized thoughts. Rereading through this post of mine that you picked out, I honestly can't find much that wasn't necessary to the ideas I was trying to convey. Length of posts =/= bullshit, false reasons = bullshit.


quote tag fixed[/quote]

[atma]

Regarding sam's previous two posts,

You claim that you were on the fence and that you thought legomaniac could have been confused town and not scum, but you didn't TELL us this. Why is
The fact still remains that you completely avoided mentioned legomaniac at all, despite the fact that he was one of the main points of discussion.

Also, you somehow expect us to know your playstyle and compensate or even forgive you because of it? You are metagaming yourself, which as I always say, is kind of a bullshit excuse for something. "I look scummy because that's just the way I do things." I'm sorry, but I will not let something like that be shrugged off simply because YOU say that that is the way you play.

And you don't consider player interactions when determining scum? Are you kidding me, I can see how you might not regard them as highly as other players, but to write all player interactions off entirely is ignoring an entire aspect of the game. What do you base your suspicions off of then? Oh yeah wait, you base it off of the length of someone's posts.

[Vaya]

Hey I never said this case wasn't legitimate. I just can't defend myself here in this regard.

I wasn't trying to imply you were saying that it wasn't legit. I just wanted to make sure it was clear to everyone that it was still a legitimate point.

That comment to me implicated him as scum in my eyes -- I ended up being wrong. Meanwhile lego didn't do anything to me to implicate him as scum or town in my eyes because I was waivering on him being town or scum and therefore had no comment.

That's really the only defense I have -- I feel like I'm stuck in an unfortunate situation here.

I don't feel as if my job is to 'guide' the newbies to an optimal mafiascum playstyle, since my playstyle tends to be different than what mafia theory and the wiki tell me I should coach you as. I'm exposing you to a different playstyle than what's expected in an IC in a newbie game, because when you start playing larger theme games, you'll run into more eccentric players like myself and you should be prepared for those players as well.

Of course getting the more formulaic players is a valuable experience in and of itself but I'm assuming you'll play more than one newbie game.

Now with that said, I don't think it's my job to guide everyone on how you should or shouldn't be playing. If I had any sort of inkling that lego was in fact a confused, newbie townie -- which I didn't, I've said numerous times that I was totally on the fence about whether or not he was townie or scum -- I would have said something about it. Unfortunately I felt itascv was the scummier player, and I acted on it that way.

So, when you're not sure whether or not someone is scum, you usually don't bother commenting on them? I don't get then why itacv2's one comment, which easily could have been that of a townie who simply didn't have too much faith in his case, made you sure enough that he may have been scum that you would call him scummy. But lego, who wasn't even attempting to scumhunt or even bring forth any original thoughts of his own, wasn't even worth commenting on?

[Vaya]

Just thought I'd let you guys know, I'm going to be gone for a few days, starting Friday. I'll be back at sometime on Sunday. I probably won't be able to check this game for the time that I'm gone.

[sam.samhorn]

This should answer atma's question as well.

So, when you're not sure whether or not someone is scum, you usually don't bother commenting on them? I don't get then why itacv2's one comment, which easily could have been that of a townie who simply didn't have too much faith in his case, made you sure enough that he may have been scum that you would call him scummy. But lego, who wasn't even attempting to scumhunt or even bring forth any original thoughts of his own, wasn't even worth commenting on?

It's not an exact science, it's a gut feeling. They gave off different vibes to me. It looked to me like itascv was hiding something and legomaniac was just blurting things out very stream-of-consciousness style.

But back to your earlier point, no, I don't usually bother commenting on them. I haven't commented on you, for example. I prefer to keep mental notes on players to myself so that I can pull material out and make a case on someone without them having time to adjust or react to it. For example, if I blurted out in the middle of day one, "Vaya, I think that post might have had some scum motives, I'm going to keep my eye on you," I'm giving you an opportunity to adjust to that comment and quit doing what makes you scummy.

[Vaya]

But back to your earlier point, no, I don't usually bother commenting on them. I haven't commented on you, for example. I prefer to keep mental notes on players to myself so that I can pull material out and make a case on someone without them having time to adjust or react to it. For example, if I blurted out in the middle of day one, "Vaya, I think that post might have had some scum motives, I'm going to keep my eye on you," I'm giving you an opportunity to adjust to that comment and quit doing what makes you scummy.

Could you explain to me how this isn't just what you did with itacv2?

[sam.samhorn]

But back to your earlier point, no, I don't usually bother commenting on them. I haven't commented on you, for example. I prefer to keep mental notes on players to myself so that I can pull material out and make a case on someone without them having time to adjust or react to it. For example, if I blurted out in the middle of day one, "Vaya, I think that post might have had some scum motives, I'm going to keep my eye on you," I'm giving you an opportunity to adjust to that comment and quit doing what makes you scummy.

Could you explain to me how this isn't just what you did with itacv2?

I thought itscv2 was mafia.

[Vaya]

Alright, I think I'm done talking with sam for now. I still think there's a good chance he's scum. I find it odd that he didn't find lego scummy enough to even comment on, while itacv2 was, but I can't argue with what he claims he found scummy and what he didn't find scummy, or what he believes he should comment on. I'm also not forgetting lego's odd interaction with sam(his not voting him earlier and the 'I don't think sam's scum' comment, though to be fair, the latter may have been intentional buddying to make him look bad).

There is one other little interesting thing I've noticed, but I didn't bring it up earlier because, I admit, it could mean nothing. But I wanted to mention it anyway, because I thought it was interesting at least.

Manzacar: I find it odd who atma was going from very little to a lot of content, almost as if he's trying to blend in. He's first couple of post were minimal, then jumped to three paragraphs each, trying to blend in. I'll see whaht else I can find.

I find nothing scummy about sam. He's been adding a fair amount of quality to the game, and has been looking town. We should also consider little things such as atma's jump from a lot of content to little content. To me, he looks scummy.
Vote:atma

Notice what lego says about atma here. Doesn't it seem oddly similar to what sam says about atma in his case, how atma is 'talking a lot but saying nothing' like he's trying to 'bullshit the town into thinking he’s town'. I don't know why he particularly would have, but maybe he mentioned to lego why he was planning on going after atma. And maybe lego felt it was a good idea to go after the same person as his scumbuddy.

Anyway, I admit that the above is just speculation on my part. If you guys want to end the day and carry on with discussion tomorrow, you can go ahead and hammer lego now. I'm fine with it at this point, I don't have anything else important to say.

[sam.samhorn]

IMO, we should have kept the crux of this discussion until tomorrow anyways. Let's hammer lego.

[Manzcar]

I agree

vote Lego

[Sudai]

I'm going to be V/LA until mid-day Sunday. Driving home from Kansas.

Has is slow on reading the hammer vote and closing the thread. Interesting interactions today. I'll comment more once we're to the next day since I'm basically rushing out now.

[hasdgfas]

legomaniac1128 (4) - atma, Sudai, sam.samhorn, Manzcar
sam.samhorn (1) - Vaya
atma (1) - legomaniac1128

Not voting: Evil Sonidow

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And so, the town knew they had one of the two members of the mafia, placed him in a noose and let him fall.
It took much longer for him to die than they expected, as he kept kicking and jumping around.

legomaniac1128,

Mafia Goon

, lynched Day 2

Please get night actions in by Tuesday the 18th.

my bad

[hasdgfas]

As the day dawned, the town looked around and counted heads. There were 6 of them. The town found that odd, as 6 people started the night. However, it was soon learned that one of the heads had no body attached to it. It was the head of

Vaya

, with a badge swinging from the head. Vaya was clearly the

Cop

.
Slightly depressed, the town began their meeting.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Vaya,

Cop

, killed night 2

It is now Day 3. With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Deadline is September 9th.

[Manzcar]

Thread is back up so I will try and gather my thoughts and post tonight after work.

[Manzcar]

I have had personal issues over the past couple of days so I was unable to post or put my thoughts together. But then again since I was the only one that posted since the thread I don't feel so bad about it. I will definitely spend some time tomorrow getting things together.

[atma]

same here, just been busy and I just got my prod. I'll be back to post something when I have a bit more time.

[Evil Sonidow]

I've checked the thread since the day started, but since nothing happened (plus what I've been busy with studies as I've said in my previous post) I didn't see a reason to write here. But I check everytime I can.

[atma]

Well for one, I would like to hear everyone's opinion on sam. Vaya felt strongly that sam was mafia and now we know for sure that vaya was cop.

As for my opinion on sam, I originally did not think sam to be scummy, but upon questioning by Vaya, I felt that alot of his answers were scummy. I'm not confident enough to say he is my main suspect though. I need to hear more info from the all of you before I can really say for sure.

One thing that occurred to me yesterday, though, that I felt would best be saved for this day, is the analysis of lego's voting. We know now that lego is a new player and that his vote hopped around. While Vaya was talking about how sam ignored lego, I was thinking that perhaps lego avoided his scum partner.

He voted for these people: Meji Fan, Brandor/Sudai (though these two were the beginning kinda-random votes), itacv2, atma.
He FOS'd these people: itacv, sam, Manzcar.
The people he neither voted for or fos'd are: Vaya and Evil Sonidow.

Now, I realize this doesn't necessarily mean anything, but it is mildly interesting that he never mentioned anything about Evil Sonidow. Though with Vaya being town as well, this may be a moot point. I also found Evil Sonidow's vote on Manzcar to be a bit strange.

That's what I got for the moment, if some of you could post your thoughts regarding the sam/vaya issue, that would be helpful.

[sam.samhorn]

Sudai is actually looking like a suspect, almost as much as as atma is.

[Sudai]

I just got back from a long, unexpected V/LA. Suffice to say, I was at a party Friday night and some things happened that caused me to not get home until just now. I'm going to go sleep since I haven't had a comfortable bed in days. I'll catch up and post my thoughts later tonight or some time tomorrow.

[Manzcar]

Sudai welcome back from the resort. Been there done that to old for that now.
Please give your thoughts on suspects when you have time to get caught back up on your sleep.

Sam you have the habit of throwing out accusations wihout why you suspect them.
What makes you think Sudai is a good suspect?

Sam your case on itvac was weak at best. It mostly centered around that he was attacking Lego who is known scum and his inability to aritculate simply. You didn't even give reasons for why he was scummy until pressed at the end of the day. And even then some of the reasons you gave were things said after you made the "your scummy" comment. Ivac made a comment that you were trying to get the attention off of you and put on him. You retorted that yes that is what happened but at the time there was no real attention on either of you, but itvac was putting all kinds of pressure on Lego and attention was falling on him directly. Your comment on him being scum pulled all attention off of Lego and put it on itvac who had a mini melt down and said some stuff that was taken as scummy. Mission accomplished. In fact you stayed very far away from Lego until the cop claimed a guilty on him. At that time he was doomed but when attention was thrown at you you wanted to get to the nigt as soon as possible.

I clearly see an attempt to not throw attention on Lego. Get attention on others. You found itvac scummy on less evidence than what was out there on Lego. Sam I find you scummy

vote Sam

Also vaya never come out and say you are cop unless you are about to get lynched. Just defend your self if someone gets to pressuring you.