Newbie 800 ~ Mafia: The Reality Show (Game Over!)

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Post Post #175 (ISO) » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:58 am

Post by ric »

welcome new dudes sorry for post carnival on page 5

haylen:
wish she had more content but i understand how that can go when computers fuck you (prescient remark) but my read is the same

vote: sydeney
for everything said before and because with post 173 sydeney seems to really just like to turn super defensive when others point even the slightest finger at him but still enjoys pointing fingers at others. but really my main reason is that
there is no case building.
which seems to be the most important part of actually getting things done, you know? and theres not much said so sydeney hangs back, waits for things to happen attempting to slide by unnoticed

echo:
im glad echo pursues his own line of inquiry. my read is the same. i disagree with echo and onion about anticollie though and heres why: anticollies style makes me a tad uncomfortable but i buy that he is an analyzer who chillaxes for a while and then comes in with kind of a....surgical post. its a little suspicious to me that cyren and anticollie should treat this last while as a foregone conclusion but this was before replacements and, it makes sense if anticollie is a chillaxer that he should wait to see how people handle the last remaining bit.

cyren gets a slight pass but doesnt get as much of a pass as anticollie because cyren seems to have done this: ive made a difference in the game by getting the ball rolling on onion, now im just gonna sit back and reap the rewards. which is like cyren working in the mud with all of us and doing some good work and then going to take a 3 hour break at the gatorade cooler, you know? its like were trying to get this stuff done. so cyren is a little more suspicious to me but not much. sorry for the construction metaphor but you get it, right?

but the thing is with anybodys semi-absence right now is that its like the beginning of summer. its been great here in seattle and so i can only imagine how sweet other places have been. a little northern hemisphere centric, but its all good :lol:
157 wrote:being ok with a contradiction in his logic is odd, and his oft used defense of 'it depends on what you mean by defend/attack' is getting old quick. sofist.
well i wasnt defending you in the sense that i was pointing out where cyren may have gone wrong or where i think you were absolutely right and so i dont really see it as a "defense" in that way. but yeah i guess i was defending you by way of character vouch but thats not really "defending" you in the court room sense. thats more like 'yo chill with this because it feels like a mistake' you know? i feel like its not a logical contradiction. but even if it was a contradiction: could that, on purely its own merits be held against me? were human beings we do this stuff all the time, and i think it makes sense to have an even higher frequency of the kind of 'im not sure' inconsistency in a game where all you know is what people are talking about and what your role is and what you think theory wise.
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Post Post #176 (ISO) » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:06 am

Post by ric »

:lol: sofistry!
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Post Post #177 (ISO) » Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:00 pm

Post by Anticollie »

Raskol wrote: (trying to set up a D-2 lynch, are we?)
Found within your last post, this is a logical fallacy. The following situations may occur, as we have, at most (and least), 2 mafia members in this game setup.
  • Onion is lynched and turns up scum. Therefore this D2 lynch is a reasonable arguement.

  • Onion is lynched and turns up town. Thus making this pairing null and void; casts vigilant eye on the prosecution.
Under no real situation would this "setting up a D2 lynch" be... harmful to the town, unless we decide to kill someone based upon a town reveal- which is deliciously dumb. At the MOST, declaring pre-eminant scum-pairings reveals more about the speculators and those involved- and the way the convicted react.




I'm watching the new wagon on Sideney unravel- and I'm not 100% on board. You seem to have stronger convictions of Onion's feesability as Scum- and are moreso angry and displeased with your current vote's lackadaisical playstyle. That's... fine... but the FOS and vote seem tob e switched.

Not that I advocate voting for Onion yet- you would hammer and we cannot have that.
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Post Post #178 (ISO) » Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:50 pm

Post by Raskol »

Anticollie wrote:
Raskol wrote: (trying to set up a D-2 lynch, are we?)
Found within your last post, this is a logical fallacy. The following situations may occur, as we have, at most (and least), 2 mafia members in this game setup.
  • Onion is lynched and turns up scum. Therefore this D2 lynch is a reasonable arguement.

  • Onion is lynched and turns up town. Thus making this pairing null and void; casts vigilant eye on the prosecution.
Under no real situation would this "setting up a D2 lynch" be... harmful to the town, unless we decide to kill someone based upon a town reveal- which is deliciously dumb. At the MOST, declaring pre-eminant scum-pairings reveals more about the speculators and those involved- and the way the convicted react.
I agree that this wouldn't mean anything by itself-it might have been a "logical fallacy" if I had claimed that his mention of scum-pairs was, by itself, a clear scum-tell. If you'd read my post, though, I have it as part of a larger pattern. I would be a lot more understanding of your reaction if that had been the only point I made.
Anticollie wrote: I'm watching the new wagon on Sideney unravel- and I'm not 100% on board. You seem to have stronger convictions of Onion's feesability as Scum- and are moreso angry and displeased with your current vote's lackadaisical playstyle. That's... fine... but the FOS and vote seem tob e switched.

Not that I advocate voting for Onion yet- you would hammer and we cannot have that.
My FoS on Onion was a way to make sure that he didn't think that I unvoted him because I trusted him. I don't, and as I sad before, if things stay as they are, I will support his lynch when the deadline comes. I unvoted him only because I don't want anyone hammering anyone until later in the day.

That said, you have it exactly reversed on my attitudes towards Onion and Sideney. Here is how I actually feel:

Onion---I support his lynch because he is
anti-town
. Now, when I say anti-town, I don't mean just that I'm confident he's scum. I mean he gives strong signs of being scum, but even if he is town, his play has hurt us quite a bit, and getting rid of such a person helps us out. A townie who is doing the mafia's job for them is a good lynch target.

Sideney---I want to put pressure on him because most of what I see from him are scum-tells. If anything, I think Sideney is even (slightly) more likely to be scum than Onion. The only reason I still prefer Onion to Sideney as a lynch target is because, on the chance that either of them is town, Onion would be a better mislynch than Sideney is. But since I had to unvote Onion to avoid the early hammer, I am going to be using my vote to put pressure where I think it will do the most good in the meantime.
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Post Post #179 (ISO) » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:14 pm

Post by Nikanor »

Anticollie wrote:Onion is lynched and turns up scum. Therefore this D2 lynch is a reasonable arguement.
Just skimming through, and this stood out. Why are you discounting the possibility that Onion is being bussed?
Sideney wrote:You are flying high with your imagination. Or maybe you are the one that is distancing from onion, even if that is a remote possibility because you aren't on scum-radar of anyone before this post.
How do you interpret this as distancing from Onion? If anything, it could be considered distancing myself from you, and defending Onion against you, an accuser. I have no idea what to make of this....
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Post Post #180 (ISO) » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:30 pm

Post by Vi »

Vote Count:

onion (3) ~ Anticollie,
Cyren,
sideney,
Raskol (auditor9006)

sideney (3) ~ Nikanor (Raeil), Raskol (auditor9006), ric

Cyren (1) ~ onion

Not Voting:
Nikanor (Raeil), ric,
Haylen, Echo,
Raskol (auditor9006)

[size=0]Anticollie 0 PROD1 12 | Raskol 0 | Cyren 3 PROD1 0 | Echo 1 PROD1 3 | Haylen 0 PROD1 3 | onion 2 | Nikanor 0 | ric 0 | sideney 0 PROD0 1[/size]
---Cyren has been prodded.

--With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
--Deadline is Saturday, July 4 2009.
(5 days left)
Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.
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Post Post #181 (ISO) » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:32 pm

Post by onion »

wow! new people make things move much faster. i am pleased.

i tend to include player lists in my posts because it is a safe place to keep my notes without loosing them. it is there for me primarily and if it helps out anyone else, the better. it's also a place to keep my suspicions that are currently on the back burner.

it doesn't seem right to vote for Sideney now that he has so many votes on him. i had growing suspicions before, but they weren't put-you-at-lynch-minus-one suspicions. Sideney's 163 is so scummy it must be tongue in cheek. he deserves a vote put on him for it, and he's already gotten one (or two). the statement, however, fits nicely with his apparent standpoint that today is already over, thus it warrants the amount of suspicion that it is already receiving.

new people yay!

Raskol (Auditor) it totally being useful and not simply waiting for this day to end. he currently suspects me and Sideney, which does not seem to be what Auditor thought. from what i read he suspected Ric and me, but backed off to focus only on me. Raskol's case on Sideney is well put but i disagree that Sideney not voting for Echo was scummy. rest of it's good though.

continuing with the defense of my actions, it is a fair assumption that only a scum would hammer, or a pro-town with proof would hammer, so early. in either of these cases we guarantee at least one scum kill, which would be totally awesome for the town. Cyren flipping scum would not tell us anything about the alignment of the hammerer, but we'd have killed a scum anyway so it'd be fine. i didn't consider a pro-town having info a possibility in my initial defense, and so i didn't include it. i did not put Cyren at L-1 because i particularly suspected her. i had but one iota of evidence which has since almost vanished under the weight of other stuff.

my suspicions are of Sideney, Cyren and Anticollie in that order. Cyren's scummyness stems mostly from 122 in which she over reacts to both my statement and Raiel's question. Anticollie's scummyness is but a gut feeling and i have nothing significant to hang it on currently. i mistrust him because he sets up his opinions to have more weight than others without actually sharing more information than others. i'm cool with analytical types, but they are only more valuable if they show where the numbers are coming from (so we know they are not just making it up).

other new guy is Nikanor (Raeil). he quickly got his vote on Sideney. his statement in 165 indicates that Sideney will be less suspicious if i flip town, which does not seem correct. perhaps it is just me misunderstanding it. no big post from this guy yet, but i look forward to it because i had a poor read on Raeil.

Ric, you followed up this bandwagon pretty quickly without significant suspicion of him before hand. i'm having a not-easy time finding your 'stated reasons'; plz to point them out for my convenience.

happy scumday Vi!
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Post Post #182 (ISO) » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:38 pm

Post by Nikanor »

Onion wrote:his statement in 165 indicates that Sideney will be less suspicious if i flip town, which does not seem correct.
It's not. That's not what I said. I said that Sideney should fall under more suspicion if you flip scum. I did not give any indication as to who would be suspicious should you flip town.
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Post Post #183 (ISO) » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:48 pm

Post by Nikanor »

And don't worry people, only lurking because I want to save page five in all it's glory for a new day. That day is tomorrow.
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Post Post #184 (ISO) » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:29 pm

Post by ric »

heres what ive written so far on sydeney:
i 133 wrote:sideney (medium but pretty good amount for stated reasons)
i 118 wrote:sideney
i wish you were a little more involved. you seem to be laying low in a pretty big way. and that makes me nervous. can you say a little more about the rolefishing for echo and more about your vote on onion please?
i feel like sideney is acting second most suspiciously and heres why. pops in. writes 15 words pops out. do you live in italy are you just visiting? im a huge florence freak myself and i could understand why you could be distracted but i just think popping in and out with little explanation is bad news for the town, no?
and to answer this "quickly unvotes cyren then fos onion" being a "distancing" move - i dont get that particular line of thought and how it makes sense that the two events are connected, especially after i unvoted because i thought you were uncomfortable. please explain it to me.
one more reason why youre suspicious to me is because you said this:
sideney 78 wrote:
and why ric is trying hard to make Cyren look scum?
and then i asked you where that was coming from and you said nothing. and then....all that stuff i said before. its like coming in and kind of attacking and then not explaining isnt actually helping to get to the bottom of whos sweet and whos not
i mean, hell. cyren said this soon after that ^^
cyren 122 wrote:sideney
REALLY? You're not going to respond to ANYTHING that has to do with you or ANY of the questions asked of you?
echo says this
echo 156 wrote:Sideney has moved substantially higher in my list. He says a full week before the end of the day phase
(137) sideney wrote:
I think i will stay with my onion-ric dynamic pair scum until this day end, so don't think i will write much more ... and i vote onion because he seems more near to a lynch this day.
which sounds to me like saying "I don't care if we get any new evidence in the next 7 days, I'm still going to vote onion because he was the scummiest a week into the game and he's got the most votes." He posted his suspicion on the onion-ric pair in (78), a week into the game, then voted 2 days later.
and while sydeney seems to have abdicated his position it seems more like responding to the political wind than it does building a case
i 175 wrote:vote: sydeney for everything said before and because with post 173 sydeney seems to really just like to turn super defensive when others point even the slightest finger at him but still enjoys pointing fingers at others. but really my main reason is that there is no case building. which seems to be the most important part of actually getting things done, you know? and theres not much said so sydeney hangs back, waits for things to happen attempting to slide by unnoticed
i thought id vote because now, if ever, was the best time now that i wasnt sidetracked in defense i got to post who i thought seemed most suspicious and while youre still up there (maybe a little less though) sydeney is also way up there and so id figure to vote sydeney because i still trust you and it didnt make sense to not vote sydeney, especially that we only have a limited time. something i totally didnt realize for most of this first day

im still a little confused about the contention between anticollie and onion regarding post 53....

im not entirely sure whats being said here either:
anticollie 177 wrote:Under no real situation would this "setting up a D2 lynch" be... harmful to the town, unless we decide to kill someone based upon a town reveal- which is deliciously dumb
like whats a "town reveal"? a mass claim? and how is it deliciously dumb to include a mass claim? or are we talking about a cop claim and this is a little more theoretical?

raskol & nikanor

whats your take on cyren, haylen and echo?

raskol

could you expand your take on sydeney? whats so suspicious that hes even more so than onion in places?
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Post Post #185 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:53 am

Post by Raskol »

ric wrote: i thought id vote because now, if ever, was the best time now that i wasnt sidetracked in defense i got to post who i thought seemed most suspicious and while youre still up there (maybe a little less though) sydeney is also way up there and so id figure to vote sydeney because i still trust you and it didnt make sense to not vote sydeney, especially that we only have a limited time. something i totally didnt realize for most of this first day
You're voting him because you trust us? That's not good. We could easily be trying to throw you off track, you've gotta be careful.
ric wrote:
raskol

could you expand your take on sydeney? whats so suspicious that hes even more so than onion in places?
I wrote a pretty long post regarding sideney. If you've got questions regarding the points I make there, I'd be more than happy to answer them. Feel free to disagree but please actually engage what I've already said.
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Post Post #186 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:57 am

Post by Raskol »

Haylen wrote:oh for goodness sake! I wrote a long analysis post and lost it cause it logged me out when I refreshed the page. Now I need to start all over again. Grrr.
This was noon yesterday. Any chance you could get this to us? So far I've been seeing a decent amount of activity from you but it's mostly chatty and not much content. I'm sure you could contribute more if you wanted.
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Post Post #187 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:14 am

Post by Raskol »

onion wrote: i tend to include player lists in my posts because it is a safe place to keep my notes without loosing them. it is there for me primarily and if it helps out anyone else, the better. it's also a place to keep my suspicions that are currently on the back burner.
Why not use a word document? I see no reason why something that is mostly for you should need to go onto the thread, especially if it is not the kind of info that is going to help town.

Ric wrote: new people yay!

Raskol (Auditor) it totally being useful and not simply waiting for this day to end. he currently suspects me and Sideney, which does not seem to be what Auditor thought. from what i read he suspected Ric and me, but backed off to focus only on me. Raskol's case on Sideney is well put but i disagree that Sideney not voting for Echo was scummy. rest of it's good though.
You need to elaborate on why you agree with and disagree with the parts of it that you did. I don't get any benefit from just seeing which parts you like and which you don't, and neither does the rest of the town.
onion wrote: it doesn't seem right to vote for Sideney now that he has so many votes on him. i had growing suspicions before, but they weren't put-you-at-lynch-minus-one suspicions. Sideney's 163 is so scummy it must be tongue in cheek. he deserves a vote put on him for it, and he's already gotten one (or two). the statement, however, fits nicely with his apparent standpoint that today is already over, thus it warrants the amount of suspicion that it is already receiving.
onion wrote:
continuing with the defense of my actions, it is a fair assumption that only a scum would hammer, or a pro-town with proof would hammer, so early. in either of these cases we guarantee at least one scum kill, which would be totally awesome for the town. Cyren flipping scum would not tell us anything about the alignment of the hammerer, but we'd have killed a scum anyway so it'd be fine. i didn't consider a pro-town having info a possibility in my initial defense, and so i didn't include it. i did not put Cyren at L-1 because i particularly suspected her. i had but one iota of evidence which has since almost vanished under the weight of other stuff.
This seems inconsistent to me. Care to explain why it was okay to put Cyren at L-1 for basically nothing, while your (presumably more substantial) suspicions of Sideney don't warrant an L-1?
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Post Post #188 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:36 am

Post by ric »

Raskol wrote:You're voting him because you trust us? That's not good. We could easily be trying to throw you off track, you've gotta be careful.

I wrote a pretty long post regarding sideney. If you've got questions regarding the points I make there, I'd be more than happy to answer them. Feel free to disagree but please actually engage what I've already said.
no im writing to onion there. sorry if its unclear. he asked for clarification on my sydeney vote, did you not see this? for info on my read to onion and why im ok trusting him read my huge walls around page 5 and post 118 and then note the reason for the sydeney vote in the last 2 posts i have before this one.

youre right. it was 330 AM and i guess i missed that stuff, my bad

oh yeah and please dont put my name into a quote that i did not write, thank you
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Post Post #189 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:48 am

Post by Raskol »

ric wrote: oh yeah and please dont put my name into a quote that i did not write, thank you
Damn, my bad. I messed up the quotes in that post, I don't know what I was thinking. To clarify: the first quote where it says Raskol was Ric, and the second where it says Ric was onion.
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Post Post #190 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:52 am

Post by Haylen »

Raskol wrote: This was noon yesterday. Any chance you could get this to us? So far I've been seeing a decent amount of activity from you but it's mostly chatty and not much content. I'm sure you could contribute more if you wanted.
Indeed I could, if it wasn't for my highly unstable internet connection right now. If you've been taking note of my recent activity, you'll see the only things I have posted are about how I can't analyse posts on other pages because my internet times out so quickly. I could like you to a long paragraph I once wrote about how patience is a virtue. I would bite your head off about it right now, but I've been told that's inappropritate. Also, it takes me a long time to write posts as I have the attention span of a 4 yr old on pepsi...stupid tetris, stupid bubble game...

My analysis post will follow.
Seriously. Read your role PM before playing.
I am sorry if you have to prod me, I have absolutely no concept of time.

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Post Post #191 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:54 am

Post by Raskol »

Wow, never mind, I guess I need a break. Okay, the only mistake I made was the one you pointed out.
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Post Post #192 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:00 am

Post by Raskol »

Haylen wrote:
Raskol wrote: This was noon yesterday. Any chance you could get this to us? So far I've been seeing a decent amount of activity from you but it's mostly chatty and not much content. I'm sure you could contribute more if you wanted.
Indeed I could, if it wasn't for my highly unstable internet connection right now. If you've been taking note of my recent activity, you'll see the only things I have posted are about how I can't analyse posts on other pages because my internet times out so quickly. I could like you to a long paragraph I once wrote about how patience is a virtue. I would bite your head off about it right now, but I've been told that's inappropritate. Also, it takes me a long time to write posts as I have the attention span of a 4 yr old on pepsi...stupid tetris, stupid bubble game...

My analysis post will follow.
Sorry to hear about your connection. How long has it been a problem?
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Post Post #193 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:42 am

Post by Anticollie »

Nikanor wrote:
Anticollie wrote:Onion is lynched and turns up scum. Therefore this D2 lynch is a reasonable arguement.
Just skimming through, and this stood out. Why are you discounting the possibility that Onion is being bussed?
This actually escaped my mind. It is possible, but do we really think that he's been bussed? That's quite a stretch in my opinion
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Post Post #194 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:53 am

Post by Anticollie »

Anticollie wrote:
Nikanor wrote:
Anticollie wrote:Onion is lynched and turns up scum. Therefore this D2 lynch is a reasonable arguement.
Just skimming through, and this stood out. Why are you discounting the possibility that Onion is being bussed?
This actually escaped my mind. It is possible, but do we really think that he's been bussed? That's quite a stretch in my opinion
correctionAfter re-reading the event where Sideney becomes certain that It's an Onion/Ric pairing I must say that I am a fool to discount it.



something I lol'd at
sideney wrote:You are flying high with your imagination. Or maybe you are the one that is distancing from onion, even if that is a remote possibility because you aren't on scum-radar of anyone before this post.
[Upon re-read]This made me laugh. "Oh, I'm the DIAMOND THIEF? Well, did you ever think that MAYBE YOU'RE THE DIAMOND THIEF!?"
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Post Post #195 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:28 pm

Post by Echo »

Hi to the new replacement people :)

Another big-ish post from me. I started typing immediately from the first post after my last, so there may be a few repeated points.

Thoughts
Anticollie

(157) onion wrote:Anticollie tends to write a lot yet say little. sure, he's getting into the whole IC thing and proving us with all sorts of good information, but it is proportionately low game content wise.
I have to say I agree with this.
(175) ric wrote:anticollies style makes me a tad uncomfortable but i buy that he is an analyzer who chillaxes for a while and then comes in with kind of a....surgical post.
I hope we get to see this "surgical post" before the end of Day 1.

By the way, you missed my question in (156).
(156) echo wrote:There's one thing you've done that makes me a little uneasy; perhaps I'm misinterpreting?
(144) anticollie wrote:However, we need to see if the scummiest person, Onion, is truly the best option for a lynch- and to see how he turns based upon that data, first ... Onion is probably our choice, but scum slips are anything than uncommon in newbies- and so i encourage you to keep your reasoning fresh and activity high.
You seem to be pretty settled on voting for Onion yourself and you seem to be pretty aggressive in retaliating against any attack onion uses against you (141, 148), but at the same time you still call Sideney to "keep your reasoning fresh" because "scum slips are anything than uncommon in newbies"?
Sideney


Wow. Just wow. (163, 173), need I say more?
(163) sideney wrote:I hope someone place that hammer-vote on onion, this will sure give us more information than any so called post analysis.
Can you explain what you think is wrong with post analysis? The only basis for any evidence in an online mafia game are the posts made by people, since there are no reactions/emotions/etc. that you also get from a RL game. To me, you're suggesting that you don't want us to analyse the posts that have been made so far. That in turn sounds like you're trying to bury some information that has been posted by you, or even perhaps your scumbuddy?

Raskol

(178) raskol wrote:I mean he gives strong signs of being scum, but even if he is town, his play has hurt us quite a bit, and getting rid of such a person helps us out.
I've read about this sort of reasoning for a lynch but I can't say I agree. The vibe I get from this reasonining is along the lines of "Even if we end up lynching townie, it's OK because he sucked at being town anyway." Can someone please explain to me why this sort of reasoning is valid?
(178) raskol wrote:If anything, I think Sideney is even (slightly) more likely to be scum than Onion. The only reason I still prefer Onion to Sideney as a lynch target is because, on the chance that either of them is town, Onion would be a better mislynch than Sideney is.
If sideney is more likely to be scum, then why would onion be a better mislynch? You even have a much longer attack against sideney than onion back in (174). Can you explain your reasoning here?

Nikanor


... has yet to make a proper post.



@Haylen: why not write it in Notepad or whatever editor you prefer first, then just copy and paste it into the posting box?
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Post Post #196 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:23 pm

Post by Nikanor »

I've decided not to read page five. It's just too long, and I feel I won't be missing out on a lot, since one post from me pointing out sideney's scumminess somehow managed to get two other people to look into his play so far and even vote for him.
I'll just be making simple posts, pointing out one or two things per post, since I am really not a fan of walls.
Anyway, back to the topic:
@Raskol: I have something to add to Echo's analysis against you. In post 178, you said that Onion has hurt town more than Sideney has. How exactly is this the case? Onion has been posting often, usually with analsis. Sideney, on the other hand, has been doing some hardcore lurking, popping in now and then to make a scummy comment. How in the world do you think Onion has been more harmful to this town than sideney has?
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Post Post #197 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:49 pm

Post by Raskol »

Hopefully this time I will be able to get the names in the quote tags right and not confuse anyone :roll:
Echo wrote:
Raskol

(178) raskol wrote:I mean he gives strong signs of being scum, but even if he is town, his play has hurt us quite a bit, and getting rid of such a person helps us out.
I've read about this sort of reasoning for a lynch but I can't say I agree. The vibe I get from this reasonining is along the lines of "Even if we end up lynching townie, it's OK because he sucked at being town anyway." Can someone please explain to me why this sort of reasoning is valid?
(178) raskol wrote:If anything, I think Sideney is even (slightly) more likely to be scum than Onion. The only reason I still prefer Onion to Sideney as a lynch target is because, on the chance that either of them is town, Onion would be a better mislynch than Sideney is.
If sideney is more likely to be scum, then why would onion be a better mislynch? You even have a much longer attack against sideney than onion back in (174). Can you explain your reasoning here?
I'll answer both questions in the same way: it has to do with being realistic and knowing that even our best D1 guess is very likely to hit town. So we have to be taking into account not only the chance they have of being scum, but also the amount that their play hurts town regardless of alignment (I think it's possible for players to play antitown even when/if they are town-it's just bad play).

So although obviously lynching scum is our main goal and the scumminess of the player is the main deciding factor, I think if you have two players that are pretty close to each other in scumminess, then lynching the one who is slightly less scummy can even be a better choice if their play is much more antitown. Now, of course, if you disagree with me that onion's play has been more antitown, then by all means convince me.

Which brings me to the next post.....
Nikanor wrote:I've decided not to read page five. It's just too long, and I feel I won't be missing out on a lot, since one post from me pointing out sideney's scumminess somehow managed to get two other people to look into his play so far and even vote for him.
I'll just be making simple posts, pointing out one or two things per post, since I am really not a fan of walls.
I understand if you're tired right now and aren't feeling up to it, but I really hope you'll reconsider and read it at
some
point. I am really uncomfortable with having people not even reading the thread. You know, since we have reached 8 pages on day one alone, that this thread is likely to end up quite "long". If you are not willing to read such a long thread, maybe you're in the wrong game?

Nikanor wrote: Anyway, back to the topic:
@Raskol: I have something to add to Echo's analysis against you. In post 178, you said that Onion has hurt town more than Sideney has. How exactly is this the case? Onion has been posting often, usually with analsis. Sideney, on the other hand, has been doing some hardcore lurking, popping in now and then to make a scummy comment. How in the world do you think Onion has been more harmful to this town than sideney has?
It's simple. Lurking is in my opinion scummy, and indeed antitown, because it #1 allows mafia to hide and so avoid making mistakes and #2 it doesn't help add any info to the discussion.

However, making silly obvious mistakes, drawing attention to yourself as a bandwagon target, and using craplogic to defend yourself, is even more antitown. Just like lurking, it helps scum hide themselves, only even more so--because now everyone's attention is actively on someone else. Unlike lurking, it does add info to the discussion, but unfortunately much of it is misleading info.

You may or may not agree with the analogy, but this is kind of how I see it: which is better for scum and allows them to keep attention off themselves better: a townie who doesn't add anything but doesn't particularly stand out either, or a townie who takes attention off the scum by drawing it all to himself?
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Post Post #198 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:56 pm

Post by Nikanor »

I understand if you're tired right now and aren't feeling up to it, but I really hope you'll reconsider and read it at some point.
I'll probably read it during the night phase, given work and rl doesn't get in the way...
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Post Post #199 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:28 pm

Post by Raskol »

Okay, I have just been reading over some things, and I will have a lot more to say about Sideney, but I want to give him a chance to respond first. If he doesn't respond some time tomorrow I will probably post it anyway.

Also, in a few minutes it will have been 120 hours since Cyren's last post. :|

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