Newbie 800 ~ Mafia: The Reality Show (Game Over!)

[ric]

cyren & raeil

one more thing, sorry. also think about how other non-new players sometimes play multiple games at once - what if there were walls of text in every game you were playing? pretty bothersome and loathsome, no?

[auditor9006]

Ric

"I hate walls of text, heres a wall of text telling you about how much i hate them/telling you to trust me because i say so."

oh yeah id be remiss if i didnt mention the contents of this post as another reason to persuade auditor to entirely stop posting in *verse* - its time and energy consuming and is too dangerous to trust etc etc (like i said before in my last post)

Heres whats wrong with this:
I went back and read my longest verse. It took me less time to read then your "short" wall of text. By its nature, if it is put plain and simply verse is both more pleasing to read through, faster, better comprehended because people cant just skip over things, and can actually explain something better then simply saying it.

(so the answer is no mate, sorry i wont stop. Because i too hate just walls of text.) But i will continue to post in prose as well.

[Anticollie]

General Clairification in regards to various questions and statements.

HRH - her Royal Highness.

(nothing indictive, I was just bored and thought up stuff to say. Seemed too plain).

'Verse.' -

I think i'll just take an apathetic view point and leave you with this: "it'll probably fuck you over sooner or later."

"Difference of mindset"

- Such a term does not exist long in Mafia. Perspectives can be emperically proven sucessful, unsucessful, or theorhetical. There is no theory as to wheter or not playing one's cards close to the chest is a pro-town or anti-town move. People who keep all thoughts to themselves (note: I am not an advocate of complete revelation)

do not contribute to the thinktank that ultimately is the day portion of the game.

The town does not have 'Great thinkers" and 'great interpreters." it has "The town." We must therefore make the assumption that by laying out relevant data to our co-hoarts we do the most good for the most amount of people. By playing a closed game of "go fish," we risk tripping up ourselves and/or not coming to the right conclusion because of this. The disadvantage to the mafia that the town gains from such an action is nullified by this fact. if you do not feel this to be true, fine, but reasoning disagrees. I shall elaborate in another, optional, section below.

Lots of leads -

Let me clairify. By "lots of leads," I meant I'm seeing many attempts to invoke conversation and speculation. More of a passive compliment than anything actually relevant. This was mis-worded, and I do apologise. However, against my performance, I think we cannot really compare this.

... And just to close, even if what you interpreted my phrasing to be was correct... how exactly would that be scummy? I cannot for the life of me form a kosher reason. (Though it could be the 3 hours of sleep).

Response

I have been asked to clairify my opnion of [Sideney]. I have... little to say, because he is a man of few words. If I had one qualm it would be that

lack of originality

in his posts.

I can take short-breathed statements... sometimes they are the most far-reaching. However,

lets see more theorycraft and less vote hopping.

As it stands now,

Sideney has changed his vote 33% of the time.

This is due primarily to his staunch lack of posting, but the stands is still alive: with so little activity, his reasoning needs to be better presented.

optional

let us elaborate upon why selective truth or "Not showing one's full hand" is a powerful enemy to the town.

The first, is thus: by performing a selective truth, one forces themselves into a seat of power. Infact selective truth is one of the 48 laws of power. By keeping your hand to yourself, you force others to come to you when they desire your reasoning. However, as we have already established, reasoning should be outright and clear: because the lack of reasoning is no better than shady reasoning. No one member would accept a vote witohut perper reasoning, and therfore we shall state our reasons in a truthful manner, and in a way that tohers may decide if our reasoning is sound.

To digress further, one may ask 'So then, why is selective truth a negative tihng? Surely the ability to nullify incompetant facts from our speech is a useful tool to allow our fellow town to home in on the serious, astute, and actionable issue at hand.' This is correct, and the reason why there is a difference between selective truth, and precision. There is a time and a place for all facts, and that place isn't in a single post. Ideas should be scattered and fed to one's fellow town in tid-bits. Not to trail, or lead them- but to ensure that digestion of information is ultimately thorough.

To answer the questin then, selective truth, or "not saying everything," is not only an act of derision (something that shall never be labeled as "pro-town, as it does not set one's side up for the best possible sucess- as you yourself may be asked to leave the game for some myriad of reasons, including a lynch, and if not all of your options and thoughts have been expunged, the town is not at its best possible odds to win.

As data flow increases, as does the town's ability to understand, see patterns in play. There is a limit however, and data-overload may occur: but this bring up precision and the ability to cull data over a period of time.

[Anticollie]

EBWODP: I also found the "Wall of text against walls of text" thoroughly entertaining.

I hope it doesn't come as a surprise tht I did not read the whole text.

[ric]

no surprise, it actually kind of reinforces the point.

what is this EBWODP? and i think theres another like EBWOP or something floating around here...

[ric]

went back and read my longest verse. It took me less time to read then your "short" wall of text. By its nature, if it is put plain and simply verse is both more pleasing to read through, faster, better comprehended because people cant just skip over things, and can actually explain something better then simply saying it.

A) yeah and thats a problem of the typical wall. it doesnt alleviate the fact that when you riddle through text and verse it takes double and triple the energy to find out what youre saying and even then can be missed. as youve already told me, i guess ive missed things already and other people are mentioning that it sucks to wade through it. the 'nature of verse' vs prose is certainly debatable and i think youre dead wrong about being "better" comprehended and "better" for explanation.
B) thanks for coming back down to earth though
C) i hope you dont save verse for when you have to say something important. maybe both but please dont leave important points inside the verse and untouched on in a real explanation.

[ric]

oh shit i missed this somehow.

"I hate walls of text, heres a wall of text telling you about how much i hate them/telling you to trust me because i say so."

nope. never said that, please dont misrepresent what im saying. i said

anyway, thats my reasoning for why one should try to reduce walls of text and mitigate aggressiveness. im not saying either are always bad. just that one should be aware of how theyre affecting the game. there are certainly times to be aggressive but there are also times to cool the fuck out.

if you feel an explanation regarding my position on expediency is merely meant to gain trust then i challenge you to come up with something better than a post that merely jabs at the ribs in order to prod someone into doing something that you can try to make look suspicious....or whatever the fuck you are doing

[auditor9006]

Ric

"if you want a mini-lesson on subjectivity vs objectivity and why both deserve a place, i can post it or pm it to you (if its legal) but not here in this post. its already long enough."

My last part was more commenting on the arrogance of assumption in this statement thats all.

Its not misrepresenting, i was merely pointing out what it looked like to me. I am entitled to my opinion as you are yours. I still agree with the majority of the points but it comes across as superior in its language - telling rather then questioning or inquiring of other people what to do.

Regardless this is off topic and i apologize for going there. I just get annoyed at people bossing others around.

Anticollie

In which case what your effectively saying is that everyone should tell everyone else everything all the way down to roleclaiming on the first day. Thats what it seems like to me at least - i get that your not, but i also disagree with your playstyle.

The reason is i hate the people who mathematically break everything down from a starting point of discussion to analysis then follow through with the data to work out exactly what is going on.

I

know

its one of the best possible methods but to be quite frank i dont see the fun in it - i do after all play to be entertained not to over analyze everything. Verse makes it that much more enjoyable for me regardless of others opinion and thats largely why i do it. I know the consequences and i can deal with them.

What i find annoying about the data analysis method is that sure you can work out the game much better, but i just think it takes away the edge of the fun in the game. Its the leeroy jenkins syndrome - you can sit around all day working everything out, or just go in and have fun. I prefer the latter because it is actually entertaining for me - and im sure you prefer the former because thats more fun for you.

At the end of the day you will more likely be a better player then me, but if im not enjoying it i may as well leave anyway. so like i said, i will keep the verse down, but dont ask me to stop having fun.

back on topic - quite a few people seem to have cut down on posting, lets get back to onion and ric.

Ric:
Why do you seemingly change opinion on the onion fiasco - you still seem determined to defend him but you also advocate him as scum?

[ric]

just to let everyone know i have a full schedule coming up and sunday is probably the first day i will be able to post anything and sunday is iffy, im on call at work. just saying.

auditor

while i dont understand the train of thought, i understand the sentiment. i do get that sort of superior aire sometimes but i thought it might be helpful to fully understand more about what i was saying because cyren seems so against it and while im feeling cyrens position on it, i just think theres some useful ish below the surface, you know? and a little more explanation on something like that may be useful info or something, you know? but yeah i get what youre saying even though i dont mind that it comes out. and if i think i know what im talking about and have helpful background info sometimes i make that ish available and dont mind explaining shit that would be helpful, i think im pretty good at it and i think i have good grasp of some key game skills, thats all. again, sorry if it seems condescending or bossy, i truly do work on this both in game and in life but its part of my personality

Ric:
Why do you seemingly change opinion on the onion fiasco - you still seem determined to defend him but you also advocate him as scum?

read post 118 (and below) please and if you have more specific questions, please ask them and ill get to them on sunday (or friday morning if im lucky). i feel like this has been asked and answered.

look at this example (my first game here): this covers everything ive discussed with cyren and raeil and part of the reason why im vouching for onion (and, incidentally, in my own arguments against kairyuu discusses some of the theory ive been talking about here)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=125

(luna louise and lunar tick are the mob here)

go to page 6. kairyuu joins the game from page 6 to page 9, is a complete dick who burys himself in a hole when myself and others point out how much of an idiot hes being and then it seemed like we had no other choice BUT to vote for him despite the fact that he was civi and everyone who voted for him was a civi. ironically/incidentally, i was skimming the boards recently and saw that kairyuu is still a dick. it can be a cover style of play, which has to be taken into account, but he is still the same dummy whether or not he is actually mafia. i have seen dickheads do this at other sites and in live games as well, hence my simultaneous offense and defense of onion: philosophy prick.

ALSO

like ive said before,

i KNOW (and am friends with) people who are

exactly

like onion and have played games with them.

it may be suspicious that i sometimes live in grey area but that doesnt a sicilian make. i have to tell people what i see, even if it amounts to somewhat of a contradiction, and if im right it feels good as a validation of my instincts. at the same time i dont want to be JUST defending onion

for the record as of right now my top 3 suspicious list
1 onion (by far for stated reasons)
2 sideney (medium but pretty good amount for stated reasons)
3 auditor (undecided but still well below sideney. auditors kind of....jabbing combined with the resistance about the poetry/verse thing just strikes me as confrontational without a point trying to whip up something, feel me? i will repeat that this suspicion level is "WELL BELOW" sideney at this point)

[ric]

have a good weekend everybody

[Anticollie]

it may be suspicious that i sometimes live in grey area but that doesnt a sicilian make. i have to tell people what i see, even if it amounts to somewhat of a contradiction, and if im right it feels good as a validation of my instincts. at the same time i dont want to be JUST defending onion

I have seem many players like yourself attempt to poorly communicate this feeling. What you have done here is enthralling- and I don't know why.

PS: EBWODP: Edited By Way of Double Posting.

[Vi]

Vote Count:

onion (3) ~ Anticollie, Cyren, sideney

Cyren (1) ~ onion
ric (1) ~ auditor9006

Not Voting:

Raeil, ric, Haylen, Echo
[size=0]Anticollie 0 PROD1 8 | auditor9006 0 | Cyren 0 | Echo 1 | Haylen 1 | onion 1 | Raeil 0 | ric 0 | sideney 1[/size]

--With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
--Deadline is Saturday, July 4 2009.

(10 days left)

[sideney]

I think i will stay with my onion-ric dynamic pair scum until this day end, so don't think i will write much more. All this analyzing post are really boring, not that they aren't useful, but i haven't play yet a game where every players write one million words for post.Generally speaking i feel thaty every players that spend much words to analyze is pro-town. except for ric, his " oh, my bad, i will unvote onion now" post make me feel that him and onion are the two little pal that we are looking for. and i vote onion because he seems more near to a lynch this day. Anymore from me?

[auditor9006]

Ric actually gives a good explanation on 118, so i apologize for forgetting it - it was on a previous post page and so i skipped it over in my mind when posting the question. Also, thanks for the nice response as well Ric, i think that clears quite a few of my misgivings up.

I went back and reread from the beginning and if your telling the truth about your play style then i certainly think your not scum. However this will re spot my vote to onion - not yet because we don't need another L-1 so soon, but eventually if we are done with questioning on the last day and he is still top dog then i would be more then happy to vote his way. Plus if he does come out scum we can always come back to you.

unvote

I would question onion but much has already been done in that ball park so i will change tack - the three who are already voting on onion - Anticollie, sidney and Cyren. though we likely already know the reasons for you voting him, so what do you think about your fellow voters?

[onion]

i'll start with ric's post a page ago. first, repeatedly asking Cyren for justification for his vote is an attack against him because its purpose is to see if his vote is scummy or not. it is by no means a bad thing because that's what we are here to do.

the first time i stated my who-would-hammer theory, i was disregarding Cyren being hammered by his buddy, which seemed like a very strange move on their part, or that a pro-town would know he was scum, also very strange and unlikely. however, i later added these possibilities to the theory. only an anti-town would hammer a towny Cyren, but either alignment could hammer a scum Cyren.

i thought i was being quite honest of my suspicion of Cyren and Raeil. the crossvoting is weak evidence, but what do you expect this early? i'm not pointing at Cyren screaming scum here.

In short:
053: anyone who hammers would be scum
115: either Cyren or the hammerer is scum, meaning the person who hammered might not be scum after all

Until you explain how you can generalize to a degree where your general statement contradicts with your more specific statement, I think my point stands.

in 053 i neglected the possibility that a a pro-town could somehow know Cyren was scum and hammer him. it is such an unlikely possibility that i didn't think of it at the time. none the less, it is possible and so was added to the theory later as stated above.

Anticollie - advocates full disclosure except for wifom.
Auditor - better not leroy our game.
Cyren - nothing new.
Echo - seems lynch happy.
Haylen -
Raeil -
Ric - still allying, but i like him.
Sideney - refuses to contribute.

i'm up to speed at least. i notice my lack of new content this post; i'll build a case next time. Sideney refuses to join the conversation and i'm actually getting a lurk feel from Anticollie because he talks all about general position, and not about this game. and auditor who doesn't like arrogant people will have a hard time with two philosophers and Anticollie.

[auditor9006]

and auditor who doesn't like arrogant people will have a hard time with two philosophers and Anticollie.

If you have a philosophy degree at least BA in a 2/1 at any decent red brick university then i will absolutely not disagree with you, and i will respect your opinion.

If you graduated from a poly, got less then a 2/1 and dont even have a BA (dropped out) then your not a philosopher. I will trust people to tell the truth about their degree and respect opinion where its due.

[Anticollie]

in 053 i neglected the possibility that a a pro-town could somehow know Cyren was scum and hammer him. it is such an unlikely possibility that i didn't think of it at the time. none the less, it is possible and so was added to the theory later as stated above.

This is bat-shit insane.

You're making the arguement that is it plausable for someone with pro-town interests to sucessfully build a case for a lynch, and then cast that lynch in 53 posts?

With all due respect, I disagree.

[Vi]

Vote Count:

onion (3) ~ Anticollie, Cyren, sideney

Cyren (1) ~ onion

ric (0) ~

auditor9006

Not Voting:

Raeil, ric, Haylen, Echo, auditor9006
[size=0]Anticollie 0 PROD1 9 | auditor9006 0 | Cyren 1 | Echo 2 | Haylen 2 | onion 0 | Raeil 1 | ric 1 | sideney 0[/size]

--With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
--Deadline is Saturday, July 4 2009.

(9 days left)

[Cyren]

To Raeil -

Like I said, I am constantly worried of a mislynch etc. I would only continue scum-hunting whether or not they were innocent. That is all I can do. Also I was stating how scummy that was, not that I beleive you are scum yet. Don't like how you try to deflect. Simply saying look elsewhere ("i'm not scum") is still pretty scummy as well. Could be true but it is a pointless remark in a game where we are all claiming town.

Ric -

I think I am insulted. "Especially if you're succeeding in making somebody look guilty"? I understand this game is largely perception, but if they do something scummy and I call them out on it they were scummy to begin with. Also I've stated this elsewhere in this thread, people will play in styles you don't like. You have to deal with it. Usually the agressive players are (like you said) lynched for being so or get people lynched. Either way if I'm not agressive I'm indecisive. /smiles A lose lose situation. Play styles can't really be analyzed like that. I'm agressive to a point, yes, but I'm not over agressive. I don't ask questions that can't be answered and I back up anything along the lines of a "laugh off" i.e. "You can't just say something and make it true" comment earlier in the day.

I could be a results bassed person. However you're not vouching for Onion you WERE infact defending him. Only scum will know who is town. I also said it seemed a little scummy to me and was basically just mentally noting it. You make it appear I was the person who has blown this out of porportion. I am/was not. As a general rule in most games you will be attacked for even remotely defending a person or answering for them. Your "he is a philosopher" comment was borderline on both defense and answering. I have the same thoughts but I am attacking him for his play which I have facts on, I can't leave him be for what I may THINK he is doing behind the screen.

Our playstyles just seem to differ. We should agree to disagree? I just can't be persuaded to back off Onion based on What If scenarios. I could only take what we think into consideration if Onion himself had said it. That is my problem. Sorry.

lol yes I agree on the wall posts. Since I have to play catch up it is a bit time consuming for me. Which is why I cna't post everyday.

Auditor -

Actually I agree, I did have an easier time reading your verse than Ric's posts.

Anticollie -

Oh okay. When you said "lots of leads" comming from me I thought you were saying .... Well honestly I can't remember my exact thought process but it was something along the lines of sounding like you were ready to jump on some BW I may or may not start.

Auditor -

LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!! haha sorry. I hope we don't all die though. I laughed out loud when I read that.

Back to Ric for a second...

I didn't take it too bossy I understood what you meant when you said it. I can sometimes speak or type the same way.

Also could you cut back a llittle on the foul language please?

So, you position on Onion is what exactly? Still grey? If that is the case that is why everyone is attacking you now. Stated earlier, indecisiveness is considered scummy/bad here. I don't mind it so much in some situations but I am beginning to be confused by your status of onion as well... Also "even if it amounts to being a contradiction, if I'm right" If your contradicting your right either way aren't you?

Hope you have a good weekend as well.

Sideney I'm sure you've been told that the sit back and wait approach is scummy in other games? If not it kind of is. Just FYI. I understand you don't enjoy the long posts (I'm sorry I contribute to that I will try after this to cut back) but if you don't attempt to read and analyze it you're not helping anyone here.

Auditor,

I'm a bit weary of Anticollie, his analytical play is much more agressive than my meer statements. If he is scum it will be much harder to notice. Sideney is just... a bit frustrating I suppose. Someone who we'll be asking for more information from for the whole game. Is he hiding something? Don't know cuz that is how he plays. /throws hands up in the air.

ONION I AM A WOMAN Please and Thanks. I stated that before, paying attention?

How could anyone protown know anyone was scum?

I'll gladly leave my vote on you now that you seem to be compltely avoiding my posts.

[Anticollie]

For what it's worth, i choose to be analytical for my play-style because it is always possible to tell truth from deception with the proper amount of work.

Generally, I refuse to lie. I generally do not expect this level of honesty from anyone else, but when shit hits the wall (and it -will- hit the wall) it helps to have facts to back you up. Townies can become confused- and it's nice to be able to kill an improper wagon before it starts and you have more shit to wade through.

---

Also I've stated this elsewhere in this thread, people will play in styles you don't like. You have to deal with it.

Also could you cut back a llittle on the foul language please?

I sense inconsistancy.

---

Sideney- I'd like to see more posting. I isolated your posts and actually found myself in contention with your options, for the most part. However, we need to see if the scummiest person, Onion, is truly the best option for a lynch- and to see how he turns based upon that data, first. It is unacceptable in my opinion that a townie says "Well, i know who I'm voting for. See you in a few days!" I understand that earth-shattering reasons aside, Onion is probably our choice, but scum slips are anything than uncommon in newbies- and so i encourage you to keep your reasoning fresh and activity high.

Ric- I'm null at the moment. He's done scummy things, he's done townie things... what with the death of the king of pop, I'm a bit devoid of emotion and energy and so will post more tomorrow or the next day regarding this player.

Cyren- Altogether, I am pleased with your playing. Not much needs to be said, thanks for being clever and outspoken. Your stregnths seem to be in posting small tidbits, and so I would reccommend to flesh out your statements further, and keep a wry eye on the responses.

[auditor9006]

Aye long live Mike in heaven. May he get as many kids as he can fondle. I loved the music but always kept the man apart.

May he rest in peace.

I get what Cyren is saying in your part though anticollie - everyone has different playstyles but their is no need to use foul language - you can still be an aggressive player without swearing.

[onion]

i'm not trying to ignore your posts, Cyren, but there was little to say about the last one.

No I incriminate you on the basis you would have done that regardless if I were town or scum. Also as stated above the chance of latching on a quicklynch on scum is SLIM unless you are infact the scum partner and you know you're busing your partner.

in that i have no way of telling if you are town or scum, yes i have stated suspicion of you and voted against you without being sure of your alignment.

furthermore, your over reaction to me calling you a lurker is, well, an over reaction. you seem to overly defend yourself.

Anticollie, you've decided who our choice is going to be with 9 days left? it is not time to sit idly by and waste daylight, but to gather much info for the coming days. Anticollie posts without much game content, while Sideney barely posts at all. here he agrees with everyone, states non controversial reasons for his vote and tries to not stand out at all.

michael jackson commemorative playlist go!

[Vi]

Vote Count:

onion (3) ~ Anticollie, Cyren, sideney

Cyren (1) ~ onion

Not Voting:

Raeil, ric,

Haylen, Echo,

auditor9006
[size=0]Anticollie 0 PROD1 10 | auditor9006 0 | Cyren 0 | Echo 3 PROD1 0 | Haylen 3 PROD1 0 | onion 0 | Raeil 2 | ric 2 | sideney 1[/size]

---Echo and Haylen have been prodded. If they don't show up I will force them into synchronized dancing sessions.

--With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
--Deadline is Saturday, July 4 2009.

(8 days left)

[Anticollie]

Anticollie posts without much game content, while Sideney barely posts at all. here he agrees with everyone, states non controversial reasons for his vote and tries to not stand out at all.

I call bullshit.

[Haylen]

Sorry guys! I shall post my thoughts when I get back from work. Argh, and I had a clean slate for prods I fear syncronised dancing though.