Mini 804 - The Resistance - Mod Abandoned

[Crazy]

I'll still be voting yes- I'm not expecting to get the perfect ticket out of today, and my townie reads numbers 1, 2 and 4 is a pretty good shot.

Wait, Fishy, when you pointed out my "breadcrumb," you proceeded to write me off as obvscum. Why is it suddenly okay when Ort does it? And now you're actually going to accept the proposal anyway? Total hypocrisy if you ask me.

[PsychoSniper]

Well, there's probably no point in me keeping my "ticket" secret anymore, since more than half the town has made their intention clear.

At this point I will say: I prefer to go for 3 townies in the group, and I don't like the current proposal.

And now to answer ortolan's question of town list a few pages back:

My peception of who the Rebels are at the moment:

Fishy
ABR
ortolan
veerus

[forbiddanlight]

I have found FL scummy and if we sent the three that she's proposed in I would expect her to defect.

Did you ever explain this? I'm getting tired of being called scum without any real reasoning, sooo...

Well, actually, considering she's pretty much been written off as scum by quite a few people already I see little reason for her not to get in a sabotage and practically confirm herself as scum. Then we still need to work out who the other three scum are anyway, plus she wouldn't really be demonstrating something we didn't already know.

Again, has this been explained at all?

I really don't get where the FL obvscum contingent is coming from. As far as I can see, it's all based on one irrelevant question she asked.

Yeah, that's about what I've seen...

It was all the stuff about her claiming people were scummy early in the game for "ruining" her questions about scum talking and such. That and her seeming lack of confidence in the fact she herself is town.

Thank you for FINALLY coming out with the case.

A shame I already answered this and no one really responded further...

Scummy. The day ending with one sabotage which pretty much proves fl is scum, which we already know, gets the rebels no closer to their win-con.

Gonna laugh my ass off when there are no sabotages then

Well, whatever, I made the proposal, so it's up to you whether to accept it or not.

I'm kinda done with trying to argue with simple minded fools who can't be bothered to make coherent cases.

[Crazy]

Thank you for FINALLY coming out with the case.

A shame I already answered this and no one really responded further...

I'm pretty sure he mentioned that earlier, and even if he didn't, I did.

I'm kinda done with trying to argue with simple minded fools who can't be bothered to make coherent cases.

I bet I'm more frustrated than you are. The fact that ort can do the exact same thing I did and he is still on everyone's townlist and I'm still on everyone's scumlist infuriates me. How am I different from ort now, really? Even my reaction isn't any scummier than his "FORBIDDANLIGHT YOU SHOULD DEFINITELY DEFECT" now.

This isn't to say that I really think he's scum... I'm still guessing he's town, but for those who are saying that I'm scum because I made a "breadcrumb", they should at least think he's scum, too.

[veerus]

I'll probably vote yes because it's a reasonable proposal and because this day needs to end already.

Scummy. The day ending with one sabotage which pretty much proves fl is scum, which we already know, gets the rebels no closer to their win-con.

So wait, my view doesn't agree with yours therefore I'm automatically scummy? Great theory. What will you say if there are no sabotages? Or two? Or three?

At this point, as far as I'm concerned, any proposal is random since all picks are made on pure speculation.

[Crazy]

At this point, as far as I'm concerned, any proposal is random since all picks are made on pure speculation.

That doesn't make any sense at all. In a normal mafia game Day 1, is all discussion just useless speculation and no better than a random lynch?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Indeed I do see a double standard. Ort blatantly tells the scum who should defect, and everyone disregards this all the while still making out Crazy to be the scummiest player.

[veerus]

At this point, as far as I'm concerned, any proposal is random since all picks are made on pure speculation.

That doesn't make any sense at all. In a normal mafia game Day 1, is all discussion just useless speculation and no better than a random lynch?

D1 discussion in normal games is not pointless. However think about how often scum is lynched on D1. Almost never. Scum are generally found later after a few days worth of information.

Here, you're basically trying to pick out three townies (at least that's the current idea from what I understand). No matter whose math you use, it's obvious that odds of that are extremely low. Without any concrete information to go on (ie sabotage results), claiming you have any solid idea of who the scum are is akin to just about any other outrageous claim you can think of (like knowing who will win the next Superbowl or the World Cup). Therefore, to me, a D1 proposal is random no matter how you spin it.

[Crazy]

This is weird because I was for your position at the start, but have since changed my mind.

The chances of getting 3 town by a random spin are about 12%, or approximately a 1 in 8 chance. Personally, I think I could find 3 town in this game in a lot less tries than 8. What about you? Discussion during the day helps quite a bit.

Also, even if you're impatient, please vote NO on this proposal... certainly you can understand that we want to be as cautious as possible regarding scum breadcrumbs, right? The fact that I'm on your scumlist speaks for that.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Here, you're basically trying to pick out three townies (at least that's the current idea from what I understand). No matter whose math you use, it's obvious that odds of that are extremely low. Without any concrete information to go on (ie sabotage results), claiming you have any solid idea of who the scum are is akin to just about any other outrageous claim you can think of (like knowing who will win the next Superbowl or the World Cup). Therefore, to me, a D1 proposal is random no matter how you spin it.

Its not random if someone like ortolan (even if he's town) says that "FL should be the one to defect". This greatly favors the scum.

Therefore, we should reject the offer, come up with 3 new players, and not give the scum any ideas at all this time.

[Fishythefish]

Wait, Fishy, when you pointed out my "breadcrumb," you proceeded to write me off as obvscum. Why is it suddenly okay when Ort does it? And now you're actually going to accept the proposal anyway? Total hypocrisy if you ask me.

Firstly, I've never written you off as obvscum (I'm practically certain)- and I have never been certain that your "breadcrumb" was intentional.
I find it deeply unlikely that FL and NabNab are scum together. Sure, there is always WIFOM, but two scum on the ticket is a big loss for a small gain. Because of this, ortolan's "breadcrumb" is unlikely to be meant as such- ort only needs to communicate with the scum on the wagon if there are 2.
I agree, however, that what ort said should not have been said. In this case, I'm fairly sure it was an alignment-neutral slip, but in general such things are not good. If FL wasn't the proposer, it would be enough to scrap the proposal.

[ortolan]

When I say I expect FL to defect, I just mean I expect her to be the only spy in three who gets chosen therefore it's a logical choice for her to defect

Crazy, how likely do you think it is that I am scum breadcrumbing?

[forbiddanlight]

I bet I'm more frustrated than you are. The fact that ort can do the exact same thing I did and he is still on everyone's townlist and I'm still on everyone's scumlist infuriates me. How am I different from ort now, really? Even my reaction isn't any scummier than his "FORBIDDANLIGHT YOU SHOULD DEFINITELY DEFECT" now.

This isn't to say that I really think he's scum... I'm still guessing he's town, but for those who are saying that I'm scum because I made a "breadcrumb", they should at least think he's scum, too.

To be fair, I thought you were scum for your reaction to the accusation, not the actual "breadcrumb" itself. However, this is a slight contradiction since you were the one who pointed out the supposed breadcrumb of ort.

I'm pretty sure he mentioned that earlier, and even if he didn't, I did.

Even if you did, if he didn't then it doesn't mean much beyond piggybacking. You all hardly have a leg to stand on and suddenly I'm public enemy number one :S

[Crazy]

Firstly, I've never written you off as obvscum (I'm practically certain)- and I have never been certain that your "breadcrumb" was intentional.
I find it deeply unlikely that FL and NabNab are scum together. Sure, there is always WIFOM, but two scum on the ticket is a big loss for a small gain. Because of this, ortolan's "breadcrumb" is unlikely to be meant as such- ort only needs to communicate with the scum on the wagon if there are 2.
I agree, however, that what ort said should not have been said. In this case, I'm fairly sure it was an alignment-neutral slip, but in general such things are not good. If FL wasn't the proposer, it would be enough to scrap the proposal.

I agree about ort. However, I don't see why my breadcrumb was enough to put me at the very bottom of your scumlist.

When I say I expect FL to defect, I just mean I expect her to be the only spy in three who gets chosen therefore it's a logical choice for her to defect

Crazy, how likely do you think it is that I am scum breadcrumbing?

Not very likely, to be honest. But why the heck would we want to take a chance if we don't have to?

To be fair, I thought you were scum for your reaction to the accusation, not the actual "breadcrumb" itself. However, this is a slight contradiction since you were the one who pointed out the supposed breadcrumb of ort.

I'll admit I was a little jumpy, but "overdefensiveness" is the crappiest scum-tell in the book. And if you want to go by reactions, ort's is certainly no more jumpy than mine, isn't it?

[Rishi]

Will close the thread and ask for votes after 72 hours has passed since the proposal. I won't be home at the time, so the thread will probably close late tonight or early tomorrow morning.

[Fishythefish]

I agree about ort. However, I don't see why my breadcrumb was enough to put me at the very bottom of your scumlist.

You're quite right. Of all my reads, yours is the least well explained. It's not just for the breadcrumb. I'll explain my read on you soonish.

[forbiddanlight]

Not very likely, to be honest. But why the heck would we want to take a chance if we don't have to?

At this point you might as well reject every proposal and make the game go on forever

I'll admit I was a little jumpy, but "overdefensiveness" is the crappiest scum-tell in the book. And if you want to go by reactions, ort's is certainly no more jumpy than mine, isn't it?

I dunno. it's more how it's expressed. Exasperation is one thing, but it's another when it's kinda...argh...I don't really know a good word for it...

It more felt like you were responding to getting caught than responding to stupid cases.

[Crazy]

At this point you might as well reject every proposal and make the game go on forever

You can use that craplogic to accept any proposal. If you are so impatient, why didn't you vote to accept the first proposal?

I dunno. it's more how it's expressed. Exasperation is one thing, but it's another when it's kinda...argh...I don't really know a good word for it...

It more felt like you were responding to getting caught than responding to stupid cases.

Pff, whatever. And you complain about the flimsy cases on you.

[ortolan]

This proposal better get nos

[forbiddanlight]

You can use that craplogic to accept any proposal. If you are so impatient, why didn't you vote to accept the first proposal?

Because it had one scum on it.

I'm just saying what you claim is "breadcrumbing" probably wasn't, and the fact you don't find it likely that it is, but don't want to take a chance is basically a sweeping argument for never voting yes. I was using a fallacy to point out craplogic, as you so put it.

Pff, whatever. And you complain about the flimsy cases on you.

Nyeh, it's a shame that you really have done nothing to make me feel you are pro town.

[Crazy]

Because it had one scum on it.

I'm just saying what you claim is "breadcrumbing" probably wasn't, and the fact you don't find it likely that it is, but don't want to take a chance is basically a sweeping argument for never voting yes. I was using a fallacy to point out craplogic, as you so put it.

Fair enough. But when there's a good proposal and no possible breadcrumbs, I'll accept that. Here, ort shouldn't have said what he said, and he knows it. I shouldn't have said what I said with the first proposal.

And ABR isn't scum anymore?

Nyeh, it's a shame that you really have done nothing to make me feel you are pro town.

Well, what can I say to that? You pwned me, seriously.

[forbiddanlight]

Fair enough. But when there's a good proposal and no possible breadcrumbs, I'll accept that. Here, ort shouldn't have said what he said, and he knows it. I shouldn't have said what I said with the first proposal.

And ABR isn't scum anymore?

He wasn't when I initially rejected the proposal. That was the mindset I was talking about.

Your new stance is fairer.

Well, what can I say to that? You pwned me, seriously.

Honestly, there is nothing you can say to that. It's more a call to do pro town actions, though confirmation bias in a very annoying thing that I have trouble getting over.

[Crazy]

Honestly, there is nothing you can say to that. It's more a call to do pro town actions, though confirmation bias in a very annoying thing that I have trouble getting over.

Thank you. I've been trying. At least I spotted ort's breadcrumb, whether it was real or not. And I shouldn't have been so jumpy before; I hadn't realized that Fishy was directing my breadcrumb at Psycho at the time.

[PsychoSniper]

I agree, however, that what ort said should not have been said. In this case, I'm fairly sure it was an alignment-neutral slip, but in general such things are not good.

If FL wasn't the proposer, it would be enough to scrap the proposal.

How exactly would FL being the proposer make it more favourable in light of the slip/breadcrumb?

[Fishythefish]

How exactly would FL being the proposer make it more favourable in light of the slip/breadcrumb?

It is extremely unlikely that scum-FL proposed a ticket with herself and another scum on it. Therefore the breadcrumb is irrelevant- it only matters if there are multiple scum on the ticket.