Open 148: Jungle Republic (Game over) before 800

[Wulfy]

Caboose misquoted, that was me, and I have had that clarified so scratch that. It was a reach, in hindsight, but I wasn't understanding the conversation flow, so more like player error. This is why I ask and don't insta-vote.

As for Tarballs'

Secondly

, I think he's right. OGML and Mastin have both done this action (attacking by association), which makes it very likely that one of them is scum with Yos2 and are trying to get a mislynch. They then expect the mislynch (=not wolf) would then result in Yos2 being unlikely wolf. Thus, they would get +scumhunting point and their (whoever is the actual wolf) partner would be free for that day, ensuring the last mislynch needed to win.

This ascertains my reasons to vote Mastin. However, Tarballs doers have a point I made earlier. When Mastin was no show, I was ready to lynch him again, but in light of Mastin's latest post (along with time to think about it),

Unvote

.

I apologize for my aggression simply cause I'm stuck in the mindset that we're playing a game were the bad guys lie.

[OhGodMyLife]

Haven't been able to really read because I just spent the last 27 hours on planes and in airports but lets be clear, with as much certainty as is possible in a game of mafia I am saying that Yos2 is scum. I am not sure if he is wolf scum or mafia scum, but the dude is a bad guy.

[iamausername]

As for Tarballs'

Secondly

, I think he's right. OGML and Mastin have both done this action (attacking by association), which makes it very likely that one of them is scum with Yos2 and are trying to get a mislynch. They then expect the mislynch (=not wolf) would then result in Yos2 being unlikely wolf. Thus, they would get +scumhunting point and their (whoever is the actual wolf) partner would be free for that day, ensuring the last mislynch needed to win.

What you are saying here is simultaneously "Mastin and Yos2 look like scum partners" and "OGML is scummy for suggesting that Mastin and Yos2 look like scum partners". Problematic.

See also: Wulfy keeps voting and unvoting Mastin, because he can't decide if Mastin is a lost cause that he needs to bus + Mastin declares Wulfy as the last mafia, which achieves all the benefits of distancing, without the setback of increasing the chance of losing his partner.

Calling Mastin/Wulfy as the wolf pair.

[Wulfy]

As for Tarballs'

Secondly

, I think he's right. OGML and Mastin have both done this action (attacking by association), which makes it very likely that one of them is scum with Yos2 and are trying to get a mislynch. They then expect the mislynch (=not wolf) would then result in Yos2 being unlikely wolf. Thus, they would get +scumhunting point and their (whoever is the actual wolf) partner would be free for that day, ensuring the last mislynch needed to win.

What you are saying here is simultaneously "Mastin and Yos2 look like scum partners" and "OGML is scummy for suggesting that Mastin and Yos2 look like scum partners". Problematic.

See also: Wulfy keeps voting and unvoting Mastin, because he can't decide if Mastin is a lost cause that he needs to bus + Mastin declares Wulfy as the last mafia, which achieves all the benefits of distancing, without the setback of increasing the chance of losing his partner.

Calling Mastin/Wulfy as the wolf pair.

First, don't tell me what I'm saying.

Second, I am actually going along with Tarballs, who would rather Mastin not be lynched until he has a chance to present his case which may/may not give new light on the situation.

Third, I made a conclusion based on logic Tarballs presented. I figured that if it were not both OGML and Mastin saying the same thing about Yos2 (and just one of them), then my logic works. I argue my logic still works for either being wolf scum. Since Mastin is far scummier than OGML, and I don't see a case on Yos2 (as the above is just a theory), Mastin is the logical lynch. If/when Mastin flips scum-wolf, then we should go back and trace Yos2 (and possibly OGML?) to be his potential scum partner. If he flips scum-mafia, then we are in lylo tomorrow, and we still have leads on OGML, Caboose (who would then not be written off as mafia-scum as I suggested), and Yos2 (who can be given another glance).

[Mastin]

Right, so I'm back from my V/LA. (Note to people:
When I say I'm V/LA until a date, that normally means up to and INCLUDING said date. In this case, Thursday.) Got a couple games to catch up on, this amongst them.

[Wulfy]

*jabs Mastin*

Now it just seems like you're stalling...

[Wulfy]

Vote Mastin

At this point, the answer is obvious.

Caught scum.

[Mastin]

Post in the works; I'll be P.O'd if I'm hammered before it's finished (...AGAIN).

I'll restate it in the post to make it clear, but this post will be a catchup post; I place catching up at a higher priority level than building a case.

[Mastin]

NOTE:

THIS IS NOT THE ACTUAL CASE. THIS IS

ME GETTING CAUGHT UP ON THE GAME

. I went to bed before I could get to this game (or finish catching up to my other game, for that matter.), so I need to do this now before making a case against Yos2 and Iamausername.

(

Note to self: If I STILL get hammered, make the note even larger to players. Lobster did it in Inventor--the game I linked--and I had made it clear that I was typing more. I still have a half-finished PBPA. I

Hate

being hammered as town...

)

Thank you. Can't make it much larger than that; I am JUST CATCHING UP.

1a: Okay...I'm listening. Give me a case and I'll see what I think."

It'll take time. Wait until a day or two before the deadline; if I STILL haven't posted it, go ahead and hammer me (It's a mislynch, sure, but my fault for failing to deliver a case).
Until then, just wait. (Preferably stop posting as well. I put responding at a higher priority than building a case.)

1b: This is false.

Says the mafia.

2: Hm.... I don't know about this exactly, and your sole defense is meta...

Lobster called me out for this. I will, from now on, include an "actions from me this game that prove I am pro-town" section in my attacks/defenses. Essentially, a PBPA on myself instead of just Meta.

I think your play, regardless of alignment would be to lose the meta defense and just constantly play aggressive.

I would be called out for the lack of defending myself, and would fall behind.
No.
That is not a pro-town course of action.

Oh, and post in some sort of understandable format.

My format is perfectly understandable. My quotes? Yea, they're labeled from the last person I quote.

What Player Said

Player is still being quoted

Player is STILL being quoted

What Player B said

This is Player B's quote still

You get the idea.

It's perfectly fine as is.

3. You deserve this, I agree.

So give me the full time needed and unvote, keep it off, and (preferably) shut up so that I don't have to respond to more, because it delays the case. We've got a long time 'til deadline; I take a long time to write my cases. It's taken me a full three days to type up a case, and that was a small case, with ALL my attention devoted to that game.
I'm in a lot more games, and will have to build a far larger case.

Which is why I need the extra time.

4. Bah?

Many of the accusations Yos is putting against me (and all of you, for that matter, who are voting me with any sort of real reasoning at all and aren't bandwagoning) were also faced against me in Inventor Mafia, where I flipped town due to Lobster not allowing me to write my case, despite warnings that I HAD NOT FINISHED IT and was TYPING IT UP AT THE TIME. (See the similarities? You should. I'm town here, town then, bit busy there, trying to redeem myself here.)

5. I can agree with this since I don't see it.

I do agree that Yos is a werewolf, though, and that his post involving Iamausername was a SERIOUS scumslip.

I feel that Yos2 was going at you pretty heavily

Unjustly. I not only
1: Defended against his accusations of my play as scum,
but also
2: Gave an example of me having done this as town.

and while I thought his post was really scummy

You should vote for people who you think are really scummy, ESPECIALLY if your vote puts them at absolutely NO risk.

after I understood the context, I realized he was actually slamming you with meta

Which I, again, shot out of the water with examples to prove how what he said about my play as scum wasn't the entire truth, AND gave a counter-example of extremely similar play as a pro-town player.

(which is apparently your favorite defense as a cursory glance of your play history shows.)

Which is why I am eternally grateful that Data's a mod that allows me to link to ongoing games where I am dead and had this attitude, such as Inventor Mafia. I have no completed games where my play is COMPLETELY reflected by my play in this game; the best is 141 (townie, two pages behind) and 763 (townie, fell six pages behind), not very good, but ongoing, oh, Inventor Mafia's a holy grail as far as meta defense goes.

Woot.

6. You are correct that Yos2 and UN could be scum.

And you, for that matter.

I would like to hear this.

Kinda requires that I be alive.
You see, I have HOURS to spare before I need to do anything else; I can build part of the case in that time (though I might not finish it today).

I don't think whoever hammers you is scum, since I feel comfortable you are scum.

And will this change, Wulfy, when I flip town?
I will, you know.

Out of some good faith, however, I will temporarily suspend my vote.

Anyone voting for me who wants to gain some pro-town points, I encourage you to do the same.

If I post the case, and my defense, and I finish all the four steps of offense/defense and you still think I'm scum, then go ahead and put it back on; I'll rest in peace, with a clear conscience, knowing I gave the game my all at the end and hope what I said can be used later on.

You might have a really strong point

Yos's post with Iamausername seemed like a HUGE slip to me. I will look back to see if I can find any other actions (or even better, a lack there of--Selective Scum hunting) which solidify this statement.

so I would like to withhold my vote to see if you can prove that with a good, logical case.

This takes time. And LOTS of it. I can throw together some average, decent post in minutes.

A good, solid post with clear, solid, absolutely great points, however, takes far longer. Hours. Even days.

I must warn you though, I don't buy this meta defense bull shit.

By your own admition, I am known for doing this in all my games--
So are you going to attempt to use something I do in all my games (a null tell) as some sort of scum tell?
(Did I mention I think Wulfy's the last member of the Mafia? Yea, stuff like this confirms it.)

I don't think Yos2 would be going on Mastin so hard if they were.

Actually, as scum, I love to go hard on my partners.
I'm not, though, so, well, I'm going hard against who I think is scum.

It isn't impossible

Due to bussing...

but on my reading it, I just don't see it at all.*

Nor do I. All I see is a wolf trying to cover for his slip with Iamausername.

I suppose at this point, however, Mastin appears so scummy, that a partner would bus pretty hard.

Last I checked, Tarb was also at L-2. Why would a theoretical partner to me in the hypothetical scenario where I am scum buss me, when Tarb would be an easy lynch? (Specifically, if my theoretical partner was currently going after me, why not go onto Tarb? I'm not voting Tarb; we could've hammered long ago.)

I guess if Yos2 knew that Mastin was scum, he could have been hard on Mastin (hoping for a masterstroke-esque defense?) because of the disappearing act yesterday.

The thing is, I'm NOT scum.
I've been KNOWN to disappear as town before (see: Inventor Mafia, 1 or two prods, 141, a prod, never caught up, 763, a prod, got six pages behind, several ongoing games, etc.), so that part of the attack against me is a load of BS, as I proved before.

Why is one scummy and not the other?

Sudden turnarounds show a willingness to bandwagon, or if they suddenly go to defending that person, they realize that their attack was full of holes and that they need to recover from their blunder.

Gradual turnarounds are pro-town, because it shows a gradual change in opinion. Scum have a set opinion on matters. It generally sticks throughout the game. Town have a starting opinion...yet it is not set in stone. It changes. Over time. Reversals can eventually lead to an opposite opinion, but it is done over time, through defenses/attacks on a player.

Sudden turnarounds, scum love 'em. Because they know who is scum, they can say, essentially, "On second thought, because of XXX, no, YYY is (not) scum."
Gradual turnarounds, town does it far more often.

If your memory is correct?

So sue me; I'm lazy. Go check any of my completed games; I'm lazy and have a poor memory, state this all the time. (And when proven wrong, I curse, state my affirmation that memory is evil, etc.)

Icky WIFOM.

But true for this game. Now, because I've said it, I'll have to randomly readjust it the next Jungle Republic game I'm in. You can check into my history; I've done this "Wifom" (which turned out to be 100% true, mind you) in almost all of my games. Like 742, 735, etc. (Cop meta stuff.)

Not sure what to make of Yos v Mastin.

Vote Yos or Iamausername. Either works.

Seems to be meta v meta

Which I clearly dominated Yos on. See my post for details.

Interested in seeing Mastin's cases however.

I'd say I'm working on it, but I'd be lying--I'm responding to this post, right now, explaining how it'll come with time.

I like to take my time on cases. (Sometimes procrastinating. :/)

Mastin, what makes you think that scum can't daytalk in this game?

Because I didn't see it in their role PM's. It didn't say they could daytalk, and the standard is to not have daytalk.

Scum can daytalk.

...They can?
Seriously?
<_<

Blame farside! <_<

Still, Yos's points don't stand. The ONLY people here who I would submit to would be OGML, Iamausername, or Yos2. They're the only people I've played under, they're the only people here who I've seen before this game (other than Data, our mod).

Yay, Me!

I'll look at some other games, Mastin.

Inventor Mafia's the best, as it best-shows off my play here. Heck, practically the only thing different about the two is that I was a replacement in Inventor.

However, you can get as angry as you want;

Angry? Me? Nah. Never.
Frustrated at deja vu (when will people learn that I'm never scum? 'Cept the few times I am? ), sure, but not angry. I'm a calm guy (until I'm dead. Then I get feral, and write aggressive, slightly offensive notes which I post when the game's over), actually.

you just saying over and over again "YOU CAN NOT META ME" is NOT a defense.

1: It is valid, as I have given examples to counter yours,
2: I have posted FAR more than what you just were describing--I explained why your Meta on me was wrong, gave examples to back up the evidence, etc.

Also, I don't care what you think

Which is extremely scummy.

ANY pro-town player should be willing to listen to ANY other player.

town can, and should, suddenly and on a dime be willing to completly and 100% change their minds when new evidence warrents it.

I can understand gradual changes. Nothing wrong there. But except for the case of power role claims (not going to happen here, with the possible exception of the last member of the Mafia), NOTHING should make a player suddenly have an opposite opinion on a player.

It's just better for the town.

So scum think. That's why they do it--

They THINK a sudden turnaround of opinions would be pro-town.
It's no different than showing Caution, which they think would be pro-town.
Simply put,

It's not.
It's scummy, and I call people out for it whenever I see it.

You repeated it like 4 times here:

So?

But you never gave a *REASON* why a pro-town person changing their mind is bad for the town.

It's not bad. It's SCUMMY. There's a HUGE difference between the two.

And I stated several times why it is SCUMMY to change one's opinion several times. Want me to elongate this post some more and find a few?

gave several reasons why I play this way as town

Which I don't believe...

and why it is better for the town to do so;

It, on the surface, APPEARS to be pro-town.
Then again, so does Caution. It looks like something a pro-town player should show.

Simple truth is, most pro-town players don't.
They're reckless, and stick hard to their opinions, with only gradual changes. Scum, knowing who the pro-town players are, will try to reverse an opinion every once and a while to look pro-town.

It doesn't work out.

all you did was repeat over and over again your (incorrect) assertion that it's somehow scummy and/or anti-town

And supported it with reasoning as well.

but you never gave a single reason WHY town shouldn't act like that.

There isn't a reason why town shouldn't act like that per se...
It's just that they don't.
With the exception of power role interference, they never change their minds suddenly.
EVER.
I've never seen a pro-town player do that.
Heck, even WITH cop results, a pro-town player will often not have a sudden reversal of opinion (Citing: Newbie 742).

Scum, sure, I've seen it. (Again, you can look at 742; Jeff reversed his vote to his partner.)

You are scum and you decided not to nightkill me earlier in the game because I had earlier in the game said I thought you were town

No.

AS SCUM, I KILL PLAYERS WHO ARE GOOD/PRO-TOWN.

PERIOD, END OF DISCUSSION

. There are NO exceptions to this, AT ALL. Look at Lynch all Lurkers. I said Spy because Spyrex was pro-town appearing. Look at Newbie 779, where I said to NK Halflight and TB because they were pro-town (I've got the conversation to prove this).

This is NOT the case THIS game.
So, it is false.
I cannot be a Werewolf, because I have not killed anyone who I see as very pro-town/a good player.

Kore's death should be proof enough of my innocence; I NEVER would EVER kill a scummy player who I do NOT think looks pro-town.

and now you're pissed off I changed my mind.

Let's do a mimicry, shall we?

My guess: You're panicked scum, who is disheartened that I managed to catch your slip and nail you as scum, and is terrified that I have managed to defeat your case on me because I know my own meta better than you do.

Which is exactally why pro-town people SHOULD be unpredictable, and should change their minds.

Gradual changes from a pro-town player ARE unpredictable!

Also, Two days (about) is more than enough.

Vote Mastin

Considering how I said to wait 'til just before Deadline, this is 100% confirmation that you're a member of the Mafia.

First: Nobody should hammer Mastin before he gets to post his case.

Tarb's pro-town, all the way through.

Don't even think about it.

Oh, I'm sure the scum are wishing they could, oh so badly.

Mastin and OGML are suspicious of Yos, yet both of them are voting for a person who they suspect to be Yos's scum partner.

This is a good point. I wasn't thinking at the time about it; my case on Iamausername relies a great deal on Yos2 being a wolf.

Mastin Unvotes: Iamausername,
Mastin Votes: Yosarian2

.

If he flips wolf, then that'd 100% confirm that Iamausername is his buddy.

I think it would be more beneficial for both of you to lynch Yos instead

I would be willing to do this. You? (Aren't you unvoted?)
OGML?

yet I'm getting the feeling that you seem to be afraid(?) to lynch him at this point. Why is this?

Oh, I'm not. I should've voted him first, and kept my vote there.

Thirdly: iamausername has been really under the radar in this game.

One of the points against him--
How would Yos2 think Iamausername could be so pro-town, if Iamausername has been laying low the entire game?
Answer: Scumslip, of course.

Not sure if it means anything, though. But more analysis would be much appreciated.

*volunteers*

I think he's right. OGML and Mastin have both done this action (attacking by association), which makes it very likely

that one of them is scum [uwith Yos2[/u] and are trying to get a mislynch

.

Hypocrite, Wulfy. You accuse me and OGML of guilty-by-association...and then do the exact same thing by accusing Yos2 of being scum.

What you are saying here is simultaneously "Mastin and Yos2 look like scum partners" and "OGML is scummy for suggesting that Mastin and Yos2 look like scum partners". Problematic.

No, not exactly. He's saying ONE OF me and OGML looks like scum with Yos2, and the other is scummy for suggesting it, and that Yos2 is still scum in his mind as well.

Calling Mastin/Wulfy as the wolf pair.

Your reason for voting me was because I wasn't contributing. I am doing so now, partially (defending myself, pointing out recent scum slips), with more on the way.

You voted me for poor reasoning, Yos2 VERY SOON afterwards votes for me as well, and there's Yos's slip to think about.

I'm calling a Yos2/Iamausername wolf pair, and will not rest until I've found evidence of it.

At this point, the answer is obvious.

Caught scum.

Like I said, I went to bed last night without having caught up in either of the two games.

---

Let's recap, shall we?

-Wulfy's still the last Mafia member,
-Yos2 and Iamausername are the two wolves (Dang, I'm good! Nailed all three scum already!),
-Yos2's case on me is full of holes,
-

Do

not

hammer me until I've had the chance to write up my case; we are a

LONG way from deadline

!

When I declare my case to be finished, and ONLY then, will the case ACTUALLY be finished.

[Mastin]

Mod: The [/u] tag should be a [/i] tag.

Thanks.

Fixed?

Anyway, NOW I am making that post (my Large Normal Game I was trying to catch up in can wait a while. I attended to it a day or two ago). This'll take a while. And it might not cover everything. (If it does, I'll declare my four steps finished. If it doesn't, I will not. Simple as that)

[Mastin]

Reposting this for my own reference purposes.

-Defend self from attacks while getting caught up.
-Attack others, reread, do Iso reads, etc. about suspects.
-Metagaming self, showing contributions to the game in question (usually the game where the operation is being applied)
-Metagaming others, using it against them and showing why they are scum.

I've defended against all current attacks and am caught up.
I'm partially done with two (I've attacked Yos2 and Iamausername, along with confirming Wulfy's the last Mafia member), but to finish it, the Iso read/reread section needs to be done.

I've done the first half of three as well, having defended myself with my Meta thusfar.
Now, with this reference post to work from, I begin.

[Yosarian2]

Mastin: Your absurdly long wall of text there made my eyes bleed just trying to read it, and I really have no idea what case, exactlaly, you are trying to make on me and/or Iamusername. I'm not going to go through and quote every single line and respond to it right now, because that would be totally unreadable, so let me just hit some key points.

What supposed "scum slip" are you talking about? You talked about it like 10 times in that post, and I have no idea what you're talking about at all.

You also seem to be attacking me because I have, and have had for years now, a mafia theory that town should quite freqently change their minds 180 degrees on a moment's notice. Again, I don't care if you disagree with me (nice taking this line out of context, btw), that is a mafia theory I have held, and followed as town, ever since playing with Baby Jesus back in 2006. If you think this is in any way scummy, you are simply wrong. I'm not sure what else I can say about that; I can continue to explain why I think it's good for the town and bad for the scum for town to be somewhat unpredictable, but you just don't seem to be listening, so I'm not going to bother. Suffice to say that it's something I always strive to do as town, and that I think every pro-town person SHOULD strive to do.

Honestly, the main reason I'm votign for you really isn't lurking anymore. It's that you seem so angry and hostile, you're really not making any sense to me, your attacks seem really unfounded and illogical, and your defense just looks scummy ("your meta on me is incorrect." is a valid defense. "I CAN NOT BE METAD, EVER, BY ANYONE!!!11!" is just scummy.) Anyway, I'm looking foward to hearing your "case".

[Mastin]

Let's start with Iamausername's total post count--
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:32 am Post subject: 16

Seventeen posts.

Two of them pre-role posts,
One confirmation post.

That takes it down to 14.

Others still alive,

Caboose--PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:56 am Post subject: 14
One confirmation post, meaning he has 14 as well.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:09 pm Post subject: 38 --Mine. Minus three pre-game, and my confirm, that's 35.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:58 pm Post subject: 28--OGML, and after subtracting the confirmation post, that's 28.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject: 15--Sotty. Minus confirmation, 15.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: 12 --Tarb. One confirmation posts means that there are twelve posts.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:35 pm Post subject: 27 --Wulfy. A confirmation post leaves it at 27.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: 32 --Yos2. One confirmation post leaves 32.

---

Summary

:

Iamausername is in a tie for second-last place on the contribution level post-wise. Content-wise, I would say Iamausername is the lowest (or possibly tied with Caboose), as Tarb's posts have--on even just a glance--far more content-filled and solid material than Iamausername's.

(Note: I have a suspicion based upon This post about Iamausername [not saying which part, though], but will have to ask the mod if it's alright to say it. I'm kinda doubting I can, but it is something that makes me suspicious of Iamausername.)

From now on, these points cover all of the three scumspects, Iamausername, Yos2, and Wulfy.

Votes Kham, the now-confirmed Mafia, and claims to be "the good kind of wolf".

Buddies up to Wulfy, and states agreement. Don't forget what Kore also flipped...

Yup, two posts which immediately link Wulfy as the last mafia. (It's nothing to be ashamed of, Wulfy. You won't lose the game unless the Werewolves night-kill you/get the mislynch on me through and you vote wrong tomorrow)

Off the top of my head, I can think of Yos2's reasons for voting Fallen.

Amongst them was that he ignored Yos2's NOT SCUM thing--
Yet many players didn't. As Tarb pointed out, only five DID. Many others also ignored the RVS ploy.

Khamisa, Wulfy, and Kore, for example, didn't address it at all. I did, but I didn't participate.

Well, I didn't think that was a scummy response.

Didn't think my response was scummy, but though FA's was, when others after FA didn't do it, either.

I asked a question about why Yos didn't think it was scummy; he didn't post an answer. (This doesn't count as an answer; it's a further accusation.)

Um, I already claimed NOT scum. So did Caboose, and Korejora. Pay attention!

Buddying up to two players, ignoring the other two who did it as well (Amongst them, Yosarian2, mind you).

This post seemed completely unnecessary. And seemed to be an overreaction, at that.

Yosarian confuses me.

This is evidence that Yos is NOT a member of the Mafia (further condemning him as a wolf, mind you).

This suspicion could ALSO be the reason that Kore was night-killed.
(Remember: Yos2 is accusing me of not nk'ing people who support me. This seems to imply that he, himself, nk's people who do not support him and, in fact, are actually suspicious of him. MORE evidence against Yos2.)

Yos's response confirms this:

I'm a bit confused by this.

When responding to Kore's post on the confusion.

Overreaction from Iamausername to the claim,

Yos seems to bandwagon the idea that Fallen is scummy, but should not be hammered. His CJ explanation seemed totally unnecessary, stating a fact that we all pretty much knew already, but stating it generated wifom.

Eh. If he claimed in response to a "claim or die" situation, I could see a newbie scum claiming cop, or any scum in fact if they were desperate and/or if they wanted to out the real cop.

In this case, though; I personally see newbie town claiming ALL THE TIME in situations where they pretty clearly shouldn't. I don't really understand why that is, other then perhaps Jeep's old rule that "everyone secretly wants to tell you what their role is", but it seems to happen a lot. However, lying and claiming seer in a game where there IS a seer, when you're not even in any danger; that seems like such a horrible move for a scum, I can't really imagine any scum doing it, even a newbie scum.

This seemed like an overreaction.

This was NOT the reason that Yos had voted for FA. Yet is the reason he gives for the vote day two.

This explanation for the active lurking accusation is extremely poor as well.

People voting Khamisa: Reason? I could have just missed it, but I don't see any reason for the votes yet, so if you have one or want to refer me to a previous case, I would love to see what you're thinking.

More evidence that Wulfy is partnered with Khamisa.
(Dang, I'm good.)

Wulfy - analysing situations instead of people. Knowing the angles is helpful, but I can't gauge him because I don't see enough opinion.
Caboose & Khamisa - post moar.
Yos - worth noting that I have no comment. Plenty of content but I'm still unsure.

Of these four neutral reads, one is a proven Mafia. I think the other partner is in there as well.

Every post from Wulfy on Page Eight, to show a contrast, though, seems to be distancing from Khamisa, the obvious lynch.

7 – Fallen Angel-town* (Iamausername, Sotty7, Mastin, OhGodMyLife and Yosarian2, CJMiller-seer(town),* Wulfy)

Didn't list self as member of the town; some do this, some don't, but it's worth looking at.

Kore's vote, then unvote, REEKS of bussing.

Anyway, I agree with you about Khamisa and tarballs are both looking scummy, and I'd be willing to go along with a lynch on either one.

Bandwagonning, no reason given. Seems like selective scum hunting to me.

So yeah, that would be

Yos2
iaau
Sotty7 (2-game meta isn't reasoning)
OGML

Further evidence neither Yos nor Iamausername are the last Mafia.

Seems like OMGUS to me,

You voted and the unvoted me between two of my posts so I was like: Whoa, wtf, did you ninja yourself? It was a joke.

At Kham: Okay, you have made a valid point, but you haven't really chased after one or made a case on anyone.

*Acknowledges Caboose's points but had rather hear Kham elaborate first.*

The Wulf shows its true colors by buddying up to the two proven mafia members.

The first lurking accusation from Yos2. Should have been the last, given my explanation in the game to that.

I've proven why this accusation Yos2 made against me was completely false in three different ways--
1: It requires for an experienced player (Of which, I ONLY count the three mods in this game that have modded my games) to be scum with me,
2: It also requires for daytalking scum abilities, something which I didn't think we had,
3: I posted the link to a game where I did this exact same thing as town. And gave as many examples as I could that exist about it.

---
The rest, as they say, has been lain out already. Starting from My post from here on, I've stated my opinion that Wulfy's the last Mafia Goon.

And from here on out, Yos2 became my suspect.

He attacked me for a reason I proved later to be false,
And his next post went OUT OF HIS WAY to mention Iamausername hadn't posted in a while--while SEVERAL other people hadn't done so. A HUGE slip of unimaginable proportions.

---
Reread #2 will have three intentions:
Look at Yos2 and Iamausername, defending/ignoring/agreeing with each other, essentially, something this first read hasn't focused a great deal on.

Defending, of course, would be a link,
Ignoring (what I think they've done) would incriminate them if they didn't ignore another player (See: Selective Scum Hunting), ESPECIALLY Yos2 for having a sudden out of the blue town read on Iamausername.

And Agreeing would be buddying.

Immediately after Yos2 makes the statement that he thinks I'm scummy, and that we haven't heard from Iamausername, Iamausername shows up and votes for me for, essentially, not contributing.

Yos2's next contentful post is also bandwagoning me.
---
No. This is not all there is to the case. I will re-state my opinions from page ten onward later, and go over the defense/ignore/buddying section between the two, and then go into my own play this game, wrapping up with Iamausername's and Yos2's meta. My vote on Yos2 doesn't look like it'll change any time soon.

[Mastin]

Mastin: Your absurdly long wall of text there made my eyes bleed just trying to read it

Then don't accuse me. I've stated this several times throughout my games; just. Don't. Accuse. Me.
It's really as simple as that. People bring this upon themselves.

and I really have no idea what case

The one that proves you're scum with Iamausername, and that Wulfy is the last Mafia Goon. That case.

you are trying to make on me and/or Iamusername.

You made a huge slip. I called you out for it. I will need to look further into your play, like I said above, both
1: Checking to see your interactions,
and
2: Going into details on Pages 10-12.

I'm not going to go through and quote every single line and respond to it right now

This would be pro-town to do (it gives a more solid view on your opinions for everyone, most importantly, me), but you're not pro-town, are you?

because that would be totally unreadable

I could read it. :/

so let me just hit some key points.

Key points only tell part of the story...

What supposed "scum slip" are you talking about?

This one, and JUST after stating your accusations of me and pointing this out, Iamausername DOES show up, and votes for me, and you bandwagon that shortly afterwards, with a minor distraction from OGML.

You talked about it like 10 times in that post, and I have no idea what you're talking about at all.

I talked about it before...

You also seem to be attacking me because I have, and have had for years now, a mafia theory that town should quite freqently change their minds 180 degrees on a moment's notice.

And I, personally, think it's a load of BS.

Town SHOULD change their opinions, yes. But it should be done gradually. Not suddenly.

Again, I don't care if you disagree with me (nice taking this line out of context, btw)

1: I am known for dissecting posts. Live with it,
2: I didn't take anything out of context,
3: I do disagree with you. So?

that is a mafia theory I have held, and followed as town, ever since playing with Baby Jesus back in 2006.

I will not believe it until I read up on your Meta as town, Yos.

If you think this is in any way scummy

I think it's one of the scummiest things a person can do. So, yes, I think it is scummy.

you are simply wrong.

The "You're wrong!" defense...

I'm not sure what else I can say about that;

You can save me the time of looking at your wiki and post all of your games as town, and at least one recent game of scum for comparison.

I can continue to explain why I think it's good for the town and bad for the scum for town to be somewhat unpredictable

And, via my beliefs in psychology, tells (caution-->Scumtell is similar, for example), etc. can be stated over and over again to counter it.

but you just don't seem to be listening

I cannot listen to something that conflicts with my fundamental beliefs.

so I'm not going to bother.

You should.
Repeating yourself without contradiction (showing consistency)-->HUGE town tell.

Suffice to say that it's something I always strive to do as town, and that I think every pro-town person SHOULD strive to do.

And I think it's scummy, and something ONLY scum would do.

Honestly, the main reason I'm votign for you really isn't lurking anymore.

Which means you've got no real reason to vote for me.

It's that you seem so angry and hostile

Hmm...
Let's see just how wrong this is--

1: I must agree with my friend, Toxic Buffalo on the fact that kindness is a scum tell. He saw it twice in 779.

2: Aggression is a town tell. It is a form of recklessness.

3: I have ALWAYS been aggressive,

4: I have NOT been hostile,

5: This is my true playstyle, which I have now unleashed upon you thanks to your encouragement. Don't like it?
Then don't attack me.

6: You wanted me to contribute. This is how I do it.

you're really not making any sense to me

I've got a wiki article for this:

Mastin's Insane Tells.

The tells that make me who I am.
My logic is not like others' logic.
I am Zwetschenwasser times ten.
Deal with it. But this is me.
And you SHOULD

KNOW

this is me, because you CLAIMED TO HAVE LOOKED INTO MY PRIOR GAMES WHERE I USED THIS PLAYSTYLE AND LOGIC.

It's still good, solid logic.
Also, See the thread:
Bad Logic is not a Scum Tell, in Mafia Discussion. (Links later. Internet is down, but I have this page loaded.)

your attacks seem really unfounded and illogical

They have basis on STRONG, VERY SOLID tells which I truly believe in.
You made a HUGE slip. I nailed ya for it.

and your defense just looks scummy

My defense is strong, and solid. Anything can be made to look scummy if done correctly.

"your meta on me is incorrect."

I then elaborated on WHY it is incorrect after saying this. You failed to mention THAT part, because you didn't want to make your argument look weaker.

"I CAN NOT BE METAD, EVER, BY ANYONE!!!11!"

In attack?
Never.
Defense?
Always.
Believe it or not, it IS a one-way street. I said this in Inventor; I was town then, like I am now.

Anyway, I'm looking foward to hearing your "case".

You've seen part of it.

---

Okay. Moving on to finish the case.

[Mastin]

(Forgot the links, sorry.)

[Yosarian2]

I agree with you that Iamusername hasn't posted much content. That is a perfectly reasonable reason to suspect him; I've mentioned myself that we need to hear more from him.

I will note that nothing in that summery is actually an attack against me. You seem to be trying to describe everything I've done in a way that assumes I am scum, but none of it actually explains why any of my posts woudl be more likely made by a scum then by a town.

I asked a question about why Yos didn't think it was scummy; he didn't post an answer. (This doesn't count as an answer; it's a further accusation.)

I really did explain why it was scummy, you know:

Right. My theory was that scum would be all paranoid about responding to something like that, in any way, for fear it would look scummy; I know I would feel wierd about blatently yelling "NOT TOWN!" as scum, whereas as town I might be more likely to just play along and have fun. So once it got going, my plan was to vote the first person who completly ignored the whole thing, on the theory that that was the most likely way for scum to respond to it; I'd expect town would either play along with it, or attack it, but scum would try to ignore it completly. And you were the first to not mention it at all.

Did you miss that explination?

You didn't count, because you specifically responded to my post.

Anyway, it should have been clear that I was just trying to skip making a random vote, and instead went to a "slightly better then random vote". That is, if a random vote in this game would be 45% likely to hit scum, my vote was, I donno, 5% better then that or so. It was the second page; I figured it was pretty clear that my vote was not based on much, just a silly thing I did to get the game rolling and the fact that I wouldn't have voted for you the way FA did there.

I mean, I specifically said in that post that

(I have no idea if that's anything like a reliable scumtell, but who cares, it's better then a random vote.)

Note that, while I voted FA for this reason, this was not the reason I kept my vote there as we started to get close to a lynch.

Your logic on Kore is...weak. Yes, you are correct, I'm not mafia. That's hardly proof that I'm scum, it's just the opposte. Plus, you're "Kore made one comment about Yos being confusing so Yos killed kore for that" explination is really, really weak; it's hardly like Kore spent most of day 1 trying to lynch me. If anything, the most likely explination for the Kore kill is that the wolves knew that their biggest threat was the mafia, so they decided to try and kill a mafia member. Especally after the strong arguments OMGL made yesterday linking Kore to Khamisa, it seems pretty obvious why Kore was killed.

His CJ explanation seemed totally unnecessary, stating a fact that we all pretty much knew already, but stating it generated wifom.

FA clearly didn't understand why lynching the claimed cop on day 1 was a bad idea. Well, either that, or FA was pretending not to in order to try to lynch a cop. The best way to find out which one of those was true was to explain it in some detail, and judge the reaction. The reaction did not impress me as pro-town, so I didn't remove my vote.

This was NOT the reason that Yos had voted for FA. Yet is the reason he gives for the vote day two.

Not quite correct. I was asked what the case was on FA. I responded that the biggest anti-town thing FA did was vote for the cop.

Was that the reason I voted FA? No, but that wasn't what I was asked. It was the reason I kept my vote on FA when the bandwagon started getting serious, and I think it was the main reason FA was lynched. You're trying to make it sound like I was lying here, but no, I answered the question truthfully and correctly, it's just not the question you're claiming it was.

Bandwagonning, no reason given. Seems like selective scum hunting to me

If by "selective scumhunting" you mean "selectivly hunting for people who are scum", then yes, i was doing that. Reasons are not always necessary, especally when you're right.

The first lurking accusation from Yos2. Should have been the last, given my explanation in the game to that.

I've proven why this accusation Yos2 made against me was completely false in three different ways--
1: It requires for an experienced player (Of which, I ONLY count the three mods in this game that have modded my games) to be scum with me,
2: It also requires for daytalking scum abilities, something which I didn't think we had,
3: I posted the link to a game where I did this exact same thing as town. And gave as many examples as I could that exist about it.

So, I'm scum because I didn't buy your "proof" that your lurking somehow wasn't a scumtell?

Look; meta aside, lurking is *ALWAYS* a scumtell, ok? Scum lurk more then town, and lurking is also anti-town. In any case, the reason I especally suspected you for lurking dosn't have anything to do with daytalking, or experenced players, or anything like that, so all those arguments were completly irrelevent to my suspicions.

The way you exploded, and OMGUS voted me, when I didn't instantly buy your explinations? Now, THAT was scummy as hell.


Anyway, as I said earlier, absolutly none of that is a case against me. It's a lot of words that really means very little. If you are in fact town who mistakenly thinks I'm scum, Mastin, WHY do you think that? What, exactally, have I done that scum would be more likely to do then town, and why?

It seems the real reason you are mad at me is because I didn't buy your defense. Hint: that's not actually an argument against me.

[Yosarian2]

Then don't accuse me. I've stated this several times throughout my games; just. Don't. Accuse. Me.

Then. Don't. Be. Scum.

You made a huge slip. I called you out for it.

Uh, I just asked you to clarify what you were talking about. So, what are you talking about?

]This would be pro-town to do (it gives a more solid view on your opinions for everyone, most importantly, me), but you're not pro-town, are you?

How would it be a pro-town thing to do to respond to an unreadable wall of words with another unreadable wall of words?

I want the rest of the town to get what I'm trying to say, and not just skim past it. So I responded to the relevent points in a short, succint, logical manner. Being clear and readable IS the pro-town thing to do, Mastin. Unreadable posts only are good for scum trying to smash their way out of a corner.

This one, and JUST after stating your accusations of me and pointing this out, Iamausername DOES show up, and votes for me, and you bandwagon that shortly afterwards, with a minor distraction from OGML.

What the hell?

I was commenting that I wanted to hear more from Iamusername. In other words, I was complaining about his lurking. I also said that I did have a pro-town vibe from the posts he did make, which is true.

How the hell is that a "scum slip"? It's pretty much just a streightfoward statement of fact, an attempt of mine to prevent someone from lurking, while at the same time stating my current opinion on that person. Those are all important, pro-town things to do.

The fact that he posted after I complained that we needed to hear more from him is *EXACTALLY WHAT I WANT TO HAPPEN WHEN I DRAW ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT SOMEONE IS LURKING.* At least half the time, lurkers are still reading the game, they're just being quiet; usually if you point out that they're lurking, they show up. Which is why pointing out lurkers is a damn good thing for pro-town people to do.

Again, you seem to just be taking everything I say, and trying to put a scummy spin on it. Also, to misquote Princess Bride, you keep saying "scum slip". I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.

You also seem to be attacking me because I have, and have had for years now, a mafia theory that town should quite freqently change their minds 180 degrees on a moment's notice.

And I, personally, think it's a load of BS.

Town SHOULD change their opinions, yes. But it should be done gradually. Not suddenly.

Why?

You keep saying that, but you don't seem to have a reason for it.

Everything you do in a mafia game, and everything you don't do, should have a reason behind it. I came to the conclusion that acting this way helps the town more then it hurts the town, partly because it makes it much, much harder for scum to manipulate the town with nightkills, and I did so years ago. I actually did so because when I was scum one game, Baby Jesus, one of the best mafia players of all time, kept flipping back and fourth on me, and it made it like 1000% harder for me to manipulate the town, and made him by far the biggest problem to me as scum. So, after that, I emulated the playstyle.

Anyway, if you can't actually come up with a reason why my playstyle is somehow anti-town or scummy, you need to re-think your position on it.

3: I do disagree with you. So?

Well, you just saying over and over again "I disagree with you!" without a reason isn't actually an argument.

Putting that aside, you having a differening view on mafia theory then I do isn't a case against me, either. If you want, we'll argue about it in MD after this game is over.

that is a mafia theory I have held, and followed as town, ever since playing with Baby Jesus back in 2006.

I will not believe it until I read up on your Meta as town, Yos.

Lol. Ok, but good luck getting a good feel for my meta as town, considering how many hundreds of games I've played on this site.

If you think this is in any way scummy

I think it's one of the scummiest things a person can do. So, yes, I think it is scummy.

Ok, let me try this one more time.

WHY???

Things are only "scummy" if they either help the scum, or if scum are more likely to do them. In reality, scum are much more likely to do the opposite, to carefully make sure they appear consistant; plus, me doing this tends to help the town, for reasons I've explained over and over again. So, if it helps the town, and if you have no reason to think scum are more likely to do it, you can't just claim it's scummy and expect anyone to listen.

you are simply wrong.

The "You're wrong!" defense...

No. You are wrong, because I always do this as town, and I think town would win more often if more people also did it as town. Many good town players do. Therefore, if you think it is a scumtell, you are wrong. QED.

I'm not sure what else I can say about that;

You can save me the time of looking at your wiki and post all of your games as town, and at least one recent game of scum for comparison.

Um...all my games as town? Lol.

Also, I don't actually have a wiki.

I'll be glad to give you some links, at some later time when I have time.

I can continue to explain why I think it's good for the town and bad for the scum for town to be somewhat unpredictable

And, via my beliefs in psychology, tells (caution-->Scumtell is similar, for example), etc. can be stated over and over again to counter it.

What?

No, that's foolish. Caution is scummy, yes. Consistant play is cautious play. Inconsistant, agressive, change-your-mind-in-a-second play is the exact opposte of cautious play, which should make it a town tell by your own logic there.

but you just don't seem to be listening

I cannot listen to something that conflicts with my fundamental beliefs.

Hint: your fundimental beliefs are wrong here.

But if you're really just going to refuse to listen to be because I'm apparetnly questioning an article of your religious faith, then fine. Just accept that I feel this way and we'll move on.

Suffice to say that it's something I always strive to do as town, and that I think every pro-town person SHOULD strive to do.

And I think it's scummy, and something ONLY scum would do.

And you still haven't given any reasons for claiming that...

2: Aggression is a town tell. It is a form of recklessness.

Yes.

However, being agressive to someone BECAUSE THEY ARE ATTACKING YOU is a huge scum tell.

5: This is my true playstyle, which I have now unleashed upon you thanks to your encouragement. Don't like it?
Then don't attack me.

"If you vote me, then I will attack you brutally." Also, a HUGE freaking scumtell.

Only scum should "unleash their true playstyle" on someone just because they're being attacked. Only scum get agressive only in self defense, only to undermine the person attacking them. Town go after people who they think are scum, not people who are attacking them.

The fact that you're making this a threat, "don't attack me or I will attack you with massive walls of words", is either good scum play, or bad town play. And, you sound like a pretty good player to me. Therefore, I think you are scum.

"your meta on me is incorrect."

I then elaborated on WHY it is incorrect after saying this. You failed to mention THAT part, because you didn't want to make your argument look weaker.

No, actually; I was agreeing here that your meta defense here WAS a valid, reasonable defense. Which is why, you may notice, I stopped attacking you on the grounds of "Mastin lurks when he's scum". Of course, since then, you've given me many better reasons to think you are scum, heh.

"I CAN NOT BE METAD, EVER, BY ANYONE!!!11!"

In attack?
Never.

I still say this is bull. Everyone can be metaed, if you try hard enough. But, again, we're drifting more into an irrelevent mafia theory argument here.

[iamausername]

(Note: I have a suspicion based upon This post about Iamausername [not saying which part, though], but will have to ask the mod if it's alright to say it. I'm kinda doubting I can, but it is something that makes me suspicious of Iamausername.)

You have a "suspicion" based on something you're not allowed to talk about, and that I therefore cannot possibly offer a defence against. How convenient.

Um, I already claimed NOT scum. So did Caboose, and Korejora. Pay attention!

Buddying up to two players, ignoring the other two who did it as well (Amongst them, Yosarian2, mind you).

If you don't snip out the Mastin quote from that post:

The scum are...

Khamisa,
Korejora,
Fallen Angel,
iamausername,
Caboose.

Um, I already claimed NOT scum. So did Caboose, and Korejora. Pay attention!

it becomes incredibly obvious WHY I mentioned Caboose and Kore but not Yos or Sotty. I can't believe you could possibly have missed that, so I have to assume you're just trying to hoodwink people who won't go back to find the context of that post into believing that there is actually some basis to your Yos/iam scumpair theory.

P.S. Look, no mention of Wulfy in that scumlist!

This post seemed completely unnecessary. And seemed to be an overreaction, at that.

Overreaction from Iamausername to the claim

Me showing utter disdain for CJMiller is not 'unnecessary' or an 'overreaction', because CJMiller FUCKING SUCKS. I hope he gets EATEN BY A SHARK.

WOOT! HELLZ YEA!

I joined this game in the 11th slot out of 12 because I thought it had a really good player list. Then goddamn CJMiller took the last slot. That pissed me off. Then he claims, making it clear that the mafia gods have deigned to give the only power role town has to the world's greatest fuckwit. I think my irritation is understandable, in the circumstances.

The first post was definitely not unnecessary, because I know from experience that if CJMiller is not cajoled into playing the game, CJMiller WILL NOT play the game.

My "overreaction" stems from some very small and probably futile hope that CJMiller is actually capable of learning. If I am able to get across to him that claiming seer for no reason in an open game where it is known that no other power roles exist is really, really dumb, perhaps others will not have to deal with that stupidity in the future. It was not an

over

reaction, because any lesser reaction would certainly have no hope of getting that message through that neanderthall skull into the mushy peas that he calls a brain. It was the necessary amount of reaction.

(Here is my previous experience of CJMiller, FYI. He sucks and I am never going to play another game with him. If he signs up for a game I have I already signed up for, I will politely ask the mod to decline him entry because he sucks, and if the mod does not do so, I will drop out of the game myself.)

Iamausername shows up and votes for me for, essentially, not contributing.

That's not the only reason I voted you. It was part of it, certainly, but these points:

Shaken by FA being town, of course.

Thanks for letting us know!

While I endorse this vote, I am not confident in OGML being town, either. Something about yesterday bothers me.

I think you could probably be even vaguer here if you tried.

Switching targets. My memory might be mistaken, but it seems as if OGML has done this a good deal this game.

Changing one's vote based on what happened is like, fundamental basics of how to play the game. No one is going to say that CJ is scummy for changing his vote based on what happened. That is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say.

I guess maybe I was wrong. About the second sentence, anyway. Third very much still applies.

are not about non-contribution, they are about

scummy

contribution.

First point; the old "I'm so sad/glad that we lynched town/scum" tell that scum

still

do, no matter how many times they've seen people say it is a scumtell.

Second point; this kind of vagueness, much like the "I have a reason that I'm not allowed to talk about" above, casts suspicion on a player in a way that they cannot possibly defend against. What is it about OGML's play yesterday that bothers you? You don't get to avoid elaborating on that just because you've decided to drop him as a target.

Third point, part one; Changing targets is not a scumtell. Not now, not ever. Changing targets for

bad reasons

, that could be a scumtell. But the act of changing targets, in itself, is entirely neutral.

Third point, part two; Your memory should not be mistaken. In forum mafia, you don't have to rely on memory because all the posts are still RIGHT THERE. Saying "my memory might be mistaken" is just an excuse to weasel out of responsibility for your actions.

---

Something I just noticed:

Mod: Are the WOLVES able to communicate in private during the day?

[iamausername]

Also, I want to hear more of what Caboose and Tarballs have to say about recent events.

[Tarballs]

Now, this is scummy. Why are you trying to direct people to lynch me? You're not voting me, and you really haven't attacked me at all; but it seems like you want other people to wagon me, and it looks like a scummy attempt to manipulate pro-town people into fighting each other. Am I missing something here?

OGML and Mastin have both done this action (attacking by association), which makes it very likely that one of them is scum with Yos2 and are trying to get a mislynch. They then expect the mislynch (=not wolf) would then result in Yos2 being unlikely wolf. Thus, they would get +scumhunting point and their (whoever is the actual wolf) partner would be free for that day, ensuring the last mislynch needed to win.

^ That, pretty much.


Now, I've been very patient thus far and haven't been irritated by Mastin's long posts full of quotes, but now I've officially lost my nerves So difficult to pick any quotes out of that jungle of text, especially when there are loads of completely useless things in there.

AS SCUM, I KILL PLAYERS WHO ARE GOOD/PRO-TOWN. PERIOD, END OF DISCUSSION. There are NO exceptions to this, AT ALL.

I find that very difficult to believe. Also, if your hypothetical scum partner(s) wants to kill someone who is not good/pro-town, then you're just going to bend them to do what you want?

Um, I already claimed NOT scum. So did Caboose, and Korejora. Pay attention!

Buddying up to two players, ignoring the other two who did it as well (Amongst them, Yosarian2, mind you).

That was back when people were still joking, and that was even a fairly obvious joke... in my opinion, at least.

This post seemed completely unnecessary. And seemed to be an overreaction, at that.

100% disagreeance. But you didn't know who CJMiller is, whereas iam did.

Yosarian confuses me.

This is evidence that Yos is NOT a member of the Mafia (further condemning him as a wolf, mind you).

It's not a very good evidence. Why couldn't a member of mafia say that about another member of mafia?

This suspicion could ALSO be the reason that Kore was night-killed.
(Remember: Yos2 is accusing me of not nk'ing people who support me. This seems to imply that he, himself, nk's people who do not support him and, in fact, are actually suspicious of him. MORE evidence against Yos2.)

WIFOM ALERT!!!

Wulfy - analysing situations instead of people. Knowing the angles is helpful, but I can't gauge him because I don't see enough opinion.
Caboose & Khamisa - post moar.
Yos - worth noting that I have no comment. Plenty of content but I'm still unsure.

Of these four neutral reads, one is a proven Mafia. I think the other partner is in there as well.

You

think

? Well, I

don't think

that he would "read" both of his partners as neutrals, but... it's WIFOM. We'll never guess which way it is, before the third mafia flips. So it's useless to try and use that as an evidence.


All in all, your case against iam is mostly based on what Yos thinks about him. iam hasn't really been acting scummy, in my opinion at least, and your examples of his scummy play are reaching, at best.

Your case against Wulfy as the last mafia is very wifomy, but I can forgive that since we're not that interested in finding the mafia today.

Your case against Yos is a lot better, but I'm not totally convinced by it either. But I'd like to know one thing:

Yos, how often do you use meta as your reasoning?

Because your case on Mastin was pretty much based on meta, and meta alone, until Mastin started his over-the-top self-defending.

[iamausername]

The fact that he posted after I complained that we needed to hear more from him is *EXACTALLY WHAT I WANT TO HAPPEN WHEN I DRAW ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT SOMEONE IS LURKING.* At least half the time, lurkers are still reading the game, they're just being quiet; usually if you point out that they're lurking, they show up.

Wow, it really does work.

[Datadanne]

I find that very difficult to believe. Also, if your hypothetical scum partner(s) wants to kill someone who is not good/Pro-Town, then you're just going to bend them

over

to

make them

do what you want?

Fixed.

Mod: Are the WOLVES able to communicate in private during the day?

No.

Im way too confused to make a vote

c

o

unt.

[Yosarian2]

Your case against Yos is a lot better, but I'm not totally convinced by it either. But I'd like to know one thing:

Yos, how often do you use meta as your reasoning?

Because your case on Mastin was pretty much based on meta, and meta alone, until Mastin started his over-the-top self-defending.

(shrug) Meta is one of the things in my toolkit that i pull out when it seems useful to do so. I don't focus on meta as much as some other people, but I do find it to be useful, especally in cases where I have a strong reason to think that a certain person acts a certain way as scum. I'm not really sure how often, but often enough. HJere is a recent game when we caught Ether as scum largely because of her meta, for example: viewtopic.php?t=11050&start=0

[Mastin]

Mastin's thoughts:

Hmm...I *know* that I made the page longer, but...

I couldn't have made it THAT long, could I? That must mean that someone else has posted a wall of text for me to respond to! YAY!

(And then, the world ends, for Mastin begins to respond to it. )

I agree with you that Iamusername hasn't posted much content.

Then you should have called him out for it.
You didn't.
You said that we hadn't heard from him in a while.

You did NOT accuse him of not posting much content. And I find that odd.

That is a perfectly reasonable reason to suspect him;

But, somehow, YOU STILL HAD PRO-TOWN VIBES FROM HIM.
I can't see anyone but a werewolf having slipped up so badly with that opinion.

I've mentioned myself that we need to hear more from him.

This is NOT the same thing as an accusation.

I will note that nothing in that summery is actually an attack against me.

Oh, yes. Yes it was.

Off the top of my head, I can think of Yos2's reasons for voting Fallen.

Amongst them was that he ignored Yos2's NOT SCUM thing--
Yet many players didn't. As Tarb pointed out, only five DID. Many others also ignored the RVS ploy.

Khamisa, Wulfy, and Kore, for example, didn't address it at all. I did, but I didn't participate.

An attack against your "slightly better than random" vote.

Didn't think my response was scummy, but though FA's was, when others after FA didn't do it, either.

I asked a question about why Yos didn't think it was scummy; he didn't post an answer. (This doesn't count as an answer; it's a further accusation.)

This was a further accusation about your reasoning behind the "slightly better than random" reason.

Tell me, Yos2: What made you use this tactic in this game, rather than an earlier game? Surely, the event where this tactic was first used had come a good time ago; why'd you wait until this game to use it?

You seem to be trying to describe everything I've done in a way that assumes I am scum

So? So what?
It's called a case AGAINST you for a reason.
I've done this COUNTLESS times in my games.

Tunneling.

More tunneling.

More tunneling...

You, uh, get the idea.
Iso-read me in 735 as a cop. My style wasn't because I had a guilty, though. It was because that's how I play.

More examples of tunneling.

And more...

Pretty much tunneling there as well. Iso reading 742 might not be the best example, as I was also a cop there. How about we look into other games, though?

Attacking Ivan and Chief.

More attacking,

More attacking,

And more attacking.
This continued until I was night-killed. Iso-reading 763 will provide you with a good, vanilla townie example of this.

Let's save you the time of individual posts and further Link you to similar play. In this case, that I tunneled on Green and Seraph for most of the game, and from the grave, had tunneled on GLaDOS.

As the doc, I tunneled on who became Henrz. This was mainly due to Henrz's poor defense, and I definitely wouldn't have lynched Philly.

I was convinced that Nabakov was scum, a low point for me,

and so on, and so on.

Conclusion:

LIVE WITH IT. I've gotten, in all of those games, AT LEAST six mafia from my style. I have NO intention of changing it otherwise.
Or better yet, self-vote, give up, accept you're mafia, and that I caught you.

but none of it actually explains why any of my posts woudl be more likely made by a scum then by a town.

Amongst others, there's that one VERY vital post from you:
On that page, you and Iamausername slipped badly. You
-Started accusations on me,
-Immediately after that, stated how we hadn't heard from Iamausername in a while. SEVERAL OTHER PEOPLE hadn't posted for a while; you chose Iamausername SPECIFICALLY.
-Iamausername then shows up IMMEDIATELY after that, and votes for me.
-Then you, in what I see as the first contentful post since your accusations against me, you vote me.

Those four are perhaps the most condemning pieces of evidence in existence.

I really did explain why it was scummy, you know:
[the following is his quote]
Right. My theory was that scum would be all paranoid about responding to something like that, in any way, for fear it would look scummy; I know I would feel wierd about blatently yelling "NOT TOWN!" as scum, whereas as town I might be more likely to just play along and have fun. So once it got going, my plan was to vote the first person who completly ignored the whole thing, on the theory that that was the most likely way for scum to respond to it; I'd expect town would either play along with it, or attack it, but scum would try to ignore it completly. And you were the first to not mention it at all.
[end his quote]
Did you miss that explination?

That isn't an explanation. It still doesn't say why you didn't think MY response was scummy. And, as I said, SEVERAL others ignored it. Only five (including yourself) responded to it, and I had my own response to it, but that STILL leaves, how many? Yea, something like SIX others who IGNORED it.

You didn't count, because you specifically responded to my post.

I responded, alright, but I didn't participate in the activity--
You have yet to answer:
What makes my response not scummy, yet ignoring it to be scummy?

Anyway, it should have been clear that I was just trying to skip making a random vote, and instead went to a "slightly better then random vote".

Which you never removed...

That is, if a random vote in this game would be 45% likely to hit scum, my vote was, I donno, 5% better then that or so.

And, again, why'd you use this tactic THIS game, instead of, oh, say, your last, or the one before that?

It was the second page;

Page numbers mean NOTHING.

I figured it was pretty clear that my vote was not based on much

Yet apparently was enough to keep it on, when at the time, the only thing against FA was the Meta case I had posted, essentially.

just a silly thing I did to get the game rolling and the fact that I wouldn't have voted for you the way FA did there.

FA's vote was something which should've been obvious was random. His explanation of his actions didn't seem to fit my meta on FA. Besides that (and rolefishing), there wasn't anything at the time which would've been scummy.

Note that, while I voted FA for this reason, this was not the reason I kept my vote there as we started to get close to a lynch.

There wasn't much of a case against FA. My main reason for voting FA was a difference in meta, and what I saw as rolefishing. There wasn't anything else against him. (On a side note, I just realized how bad FA's luck is--I've seen him lynched twice on day one as town, now, and once on day two)

Your logic on Kore is...weak.

Lol. Nice defense. [/sarcasm]

Yes, you are correct, I'm not mafia.

But you ARE a werewolf, aren't you?
Your continued push against me, despite my solid defense, you trying to switch reasonings behind voting me, when you realize your original reasoning is extremely flawed, is further proof of this.

That's hardly proof that I'm scum, it's just the opposte.

If you're not a member of the Mafia, then you're either town, or a werewolf. Which makes you more likely to be a Werewolf, from your attitude thusfar in the game. ESPECIALLY with Selective Scum Hunting in factor; selectively scum hunting the mafia is proof that you are a werewolf who wants the mafia dead.

Plus, you're "Kore made one comment about Yos being confusing so Yos killed kore for that" explination is really, really weak;

1: This was actually TWO accusations: One, that of proof you're not mafia.
And if you're denying that and saying it's weak...No, it is not. Other than distancing, partners will almost NEVER express confusion about each other--they can communicate with each other to clarify confusion, if they have daytalking abilities (the mod confirmed this is the case, much to my shock).

2: The other was that you might've night-killed those who suspected you.
YOU made an argument that I would keep players alive if they supported me.
I have found that, people as scum, will do the things they are accusing others of.
Meaning that YOU would keep players alive who agreed with you.
Which is extremely similar to killing players who DISAGREE with you, or even SUSPECT you.

And THAT is valid. Day one suspicions grow STRONGER every time that someone flips town.

Like I said, I wouldn't have night-killed Kore, a prime suspect of mine. Kore would've made for an EXCELLENT lynch today, putting us in lylo tomorrow, leaving us in a good position to win. Instead, I would've killed a pro-town appearing player, such as OGML, you (at the time), and Iamausername (at the time).

Now tell me, Yos2.
If you are saying you are disagreeing with it, who WOULD you kill as scum?

it's hardly like Kore spent most of day 1 trying to lynch me.

You were one of Kore's only suspects. Kore spent most of day two trying to stop Khamisa's lynch. If Kore were left alive, Kore very likely would've gone HARD after someone like you, a suspect day one.

If anything, the most likely explination for the Kore kill is that the wolves knew that their biggest threat was the mafia

There's no way you could even assume this unless you were a member of the werewolves, Yos2. There are THOUSANDS of reasons that Kore could've been night-killed.
Unless you're admitting to being a werewolf, then I really don't see this as something ANY good werewolf would do. Eliminating the Mafia would NOT be my top priority as a wolf; LYNCHING them would be. Lynching a member of the Mafia looks REALLY good, AND would lead the werewolves closer to victory if I were one.

So, yea...
There's not a chance on earth that I, myself, would've night-killed Kore.
The person who I find most likely to have done it, ESPECIALLY after this explanation, is Yos2.

so they decided to try and kill a mafia member.

Poor play. Again, what if Kore were left alive?
Two mafia, two werewolves today (unless Kore's partner were nk'd).
Who would be the lynch?
Kore, an extremely scummy player,
Or someone else, who could theoretically be a werewolf?

I'd definitely, as a werewolf, be pushing for the former.

Especally after the strong arguments OMGL made yesterday linking Kore to Khamisa

It is for this reason that Kore would've been kept alive--a link to a confirmed scum player.

Who here agrees with Yos2, in that killing Kore was a move to eliminate the mafia?

Who here agrees with me, in that--as werewolves--it would be best to leave Kore alive to be lynched today?

*raises hand*

it seems pretty obvious why Kore was killed.

NOTHING like that should be OBVIOUS to ANY player, EXCEPT for the one who KILLED Kore. This is FURTHER proof that Yos2 is a werewolf.

FA clearly didn't understand why lynching the claimed cop on day 1 was a bad idea.

I wouldn't say that. To be honest, I was ignoring his attacks against CJ. Instead, I was focusing on his Meta and rolefishing instead. So I didn't exactly see the whole conversation that well. But this explanation sticked out like a sore thumb. You were explaining to him a concept which I think that he should've already known, and you also threw in some wifom where it wasn't needed.

Well, either that, or FA was pretending not to in order to try to lynch a cop.

You're casting doubt...on a player who is NOW CONFIRMED TOWN.

This seems like an attack...against a dead player...who can't even defend himself anymore. That's just...wrong. Seriously, seriously...wrong. (I know this feeling all too well. The attacks that I have to endure some times without the capability to fight back...makes me sick.)

The best way to find out which one of those was true was to explain it in some detail, and judge the reaction.

This did NOT seem like what you were doing AT ALL.

The reaction did not impress me as pro-town, so I didn't remove my vote.

I agree, in that FA wasn't particularly Pro-town...but to not remove it from the reaction? I definitely am not buying it.

Was that the reason I voted FA? No, but that wasn't what I was asked.

It is to me. When people ask what the case against a player is, to me, that means what was YOUR reason for voting that player.

You're trying to make it sound like I was lying here,

And what's the problem with that? I think you are, I think you're caught werewolf DESPERATELY trying to fight back, pushing for my lynch with WHATEVER you can get a hold of.

but no, I answered the question truthfully and correctly,

Not in my eyes.

If by "selective scumhunting" you mean "selectivly hunting for people who are scum", then yes, i was doing that.

Don't tell me you seriously didn't know what I was talking about, Yos2. You've been playing for years, correct?

Reasons are not always necessary

1: Yes. Yes, they are. Reasons are ALWAYS necessary for a vote.

2: I'm going to quote you on this in my response to some of your points, just to prove you false.

especally when you're right.

Oh, yes. The bandwagon was correct. It landed on scum, a Member of the Mafia.
But no.
It wasn't pro-town.
Selective Scum Hunting is hunting for a specific faction. In your case, you were hunting Mafia members, but not Werewolves. Why?
Because you are one, of course.

So, I'm scum because I didn't buy your "proof" that your lurking somehow wasn't a scumtell?

Yes.
Yes, you are.
I beat you at your metagaming game.
A pro-town player would admit defeat on the points they were making.
Not you.
You switched to other, even WORSE reasoning upon learning that I had defended too well against your accusations.

Look; meta aside, lurking is *ALWAYS* a scumtell, ok?

No. It is NOT.

-I lurked in 735. I was waiting for enough responses for me to throw together a long post, and wanted extra feedback before posting my own. I had waited until Kieraen had given himself up as the last scum, before claiming cop, for example.
-I lurked in 742. Pretty much the same. I was building a case against AceMarksman (although, really, the main thing against him was Chainsaw Defense against someone who I knew was guilty), but still, wasn't posting in that time. When Jeff voted me, I claimed.
-I lurked in 760. Tried building opinions, and failed miserably several times. I wasn't contributing my all to the game.
-I lurked in 763. I fell six pages behind. It was originally due to laziness and not wanting to log into the game. It later became serious and I fell behind due to it.
-I lurked in 141. Because of it, I fell one page behind, and from then on, was ALWAYS behind and never caught up.
-I lurked in Inventor Mafia rather some bit. And even active lurked.

Guess what?
I WAS TOWN IN EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

That's just ME.
And some players are ALWAYS known for lurking (such as, say, killa seven).

I've seen scum lurk. I lurked in 688, Kier lurked in 735, MiteyMouse "lurked" in 762, Papa Zito faked being gone (something I did in 735 and 742) in 762 as well, but other than that, no examples come to mind.
I've seen town lurking far more recently than scum.

It's a null tell these days.
Perhaps it was a scum tell back in the day, when you first started playing.
But now?
No.

Scum lurk more then town,

Not in my experience. I've seen town lurk more than scum in my dozen or so games.

and lurking is also anti-town.

I agree. It IS anti-town. But

-ANTI-TOWN IS NOT SCUMMY,
-NOR IS ANTI-TOWN A SCUM-TELL,
-NOR IS IT ANY KIND OF SIGN OF SCUM.

It's anti-town. Not beneficial to the town.
Not pro-scum. A sign of their alignment.

There's a HUGE difference.

In any case, the reason I especally suspected you for lurking dosn't have anything to do with daytalking, or experenced players

Yes. Yes, it does.

Your reason for suspecting me for lurking was BECAUSE YOU SAID THAT I FEAR SLIPPING UP AS SCUM, which IS RELATED TO DAYTALKING AND EXPERIENCED PLAYERS. I gave quotes to PROVE this as the case.

so all those arguments were completly irrelevent to my suspicions.

Yea...you're caught scum. You're lying between your teeth.

You've said,
essentially,
"The last time I saw Mastin as scum, he lurked a lot",
"Mastin fears slipping up as scum, and tends to post less often as scum",
etc.
Want me to bring up the REAL quotes to prove it?

Yet NOW you say you were NOT saying that was the case, despite it being PERFECTLY CLEAR that you WERE.

Yos2's caught scum. I think we can all agree to this. I will rest assured knowing that, if I am lynched, he'll go tomorrow. (Wulfy suspected Yos2, OGML suspects Yos2, I suspect Yos2, I believe Tarb also mentioned suspecting Yos2...who here doesn't suspect Yos2? Especially after he's pushing so hard for my lynch with BS'd [For my aggressive posts? I mean, COME ON! That's something I've been doing ever since I started playing. It's a scum tell for me to be acting NICE in a game.] reasons?)

But, preferably, that won't happen; instead, he'll be lynched today, I'll be night-killed for turning the lynch around, and Iamausername will be lynched tomorrow as his scum buddy. Then the rest of the town can decide to either spare Wulfy or lynch the poor Mafia person.

The way you exploded

I started playing again, where before, I had stopped. LOOK AT INVENTOR MAFIA. You should SEE the EXACT SAME PATTERN THERE. I started out not contributing anything, and then EXPLODED with my posts, defending myself. I was about to provide a case in attack, when I was lynched then.

and OMGUS voted me

1: It was not OMGUS--I saw a SERIOUS slip from you, and a pattern in the actions of you and Iamausername.

2: EVEN IF IT WERE OMGUS, guess what?
MY META SUPPORTS ME.
-I attacked Kier and And in 735. I had a guilty on And, and suspect Kier, but nothing else.
-I attacked Ace for defending Kronos/Khan by attacking me, what I saw as Chainsaw Defense.
-I attacked Mikek in 763 for defending Ivan/Chief.

And so on, and so forth.

when I didn't instantly buy your explinations?

I gave my proof. You didn't believe it until it was CLEAR that I had dominated you in the meta argument. AT THAT POINT IN TIME, you SUDDENLY switched to OTHER even WORSE reasoning for keeping the vote on me.

Then. Don't. Be. Scum.

I never am.
Seriously, I can count with half a hand the number of times I've been scum. The number of times people have accused me of being scum?

Yea, every single game I've ever played, with possibly one or two exceptions.

Uh, I just asked you to clarify what you were talking about

And I did.

So, what are you talking about?

You mentioned Iamausername, OUT OF ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO HADN'T POSTED A GREAT DEAL. You mentioned him as being pro-town, WHEN HE HADN'T EVEN CONTRIBUTED MUCH.
I called you out for it, and pointed it out. Then you got FAR heavier in your attacks against me.

How would it be a pro-town thing to do to respond to an unreadable wall of words with another unreadable wall of words?

Pay attention to the bolded:

This would be pro-town to do

(it gives a more solid view on your opinions for everyone,

most importantly, me

)

, but you're not pro-town, are you?

It not only lets people see your thoughts better, but allows for me to respond better to your accusations. Only quoting PART of the message only delivers PART of the POST.

I want the rest of the town to get what I'm trying to say,

The best way to do this is to quote, part for part, what I had said and respond to it, so we know EXACTLY what you were saying.

and not just skim past it.

If people don't want to read, then they should go watch a movie. Not play a text-based game. If people want to read less, then they either
1: Avoid games where I am playing,
or
2: Don't attack me.

In the games where I am least suspected, I have the shortest posts. (Want references? I can give 'em.)

So I responded to the relevent points in a short, succint, logical manner.

You did not. You quoted the weaker parts of the argument, cutting out the explanations and evidence supporting what I had said.

Being clear and readable IS the pro-town thing to do, Mastin.

My posts ARE clear and ARE readable. They have a specific format which is easy to follow. It takes TIME to do so, yes, but again, if people don't want to read, then they can go to a movie, watch television, and/or play a video game for all I care.

People can either live with my walls of text,
Choose to avoid them at all costs,
Or they can take steps to make sure I avoid making them, such as, well, NOT ACCUSING ME FALSELY OF BEING SCUM.

Unreadable posts only are good for scum trying to smash their way out of a corner.

The thing is, the longer a post is, THE MORE LIKELY IT IS THAT SCUM WILL SLIP. So if people read, line by line, a long post, THEY FIND SCUM MORE OFTEN.

What the hell?

Let me translate this into what Yos2 wants to say, but can't:
"Ah, SH*censored*! He's right! Umm...I'll have to be more careful in the future. Umm...let's try reacting to it in the most pro-town way I can think of."

I was commenting that I wanted to hear more from Iamusername.

SPECIFICALLY Iamausername, though. THERE WERE MANY OTHERS WHO HAD NOT CONTRIBUTED A GREAT DEAL,

ESPECIALLY

AT THE TIME OF THAT POST.

You singled out a SPECIFIC player and said that it'd be nice to hear more from them.
Even more condemning, SHORTLY AFTER THAT, Iamausername DOES show up, and basically votes for YOUR "suspect" at the time, Me.

In other words, I was complaining about his lurking.

Wanting to hear more about a player is NOT the same as complaining about lurking. They are two ENTIRELY different things. Wanting to hear more from a player is essentially asking for a prod/for them to contribute more. Complaining about lurking is just that: COMPLAINING ABOUT LURKING.

I also said that I did have a pro-town vibe from the posts he did make, which is true.

This. Is. Utter.

BS

. You've EVEN ON THIS PAGE

STATED

THAT YOU HAVE SUSPICIONS OF Iamausername. Want the quote? I'll give it to you if necessary. You're TOTALLY contradicting yourself, Yos2. You. Are. Caught. Scum.

How the hell is that a "scum slip"?

Hmm, let's review for the tenth time...

-You accused me of lurking, essentially, setting me up as one of your top suspects.
-You then, OUT OF ALL THE PLAYERS WHO YOU

COULD

HAVE MENTIONED,

SPECIFICALLY

MENTION Iamausername.
-Iamausername VERY SHORTLY AFTER THAT

DOES

show up, WITH A VOTE ON

ME

, when I just so happen to be

YOUR

TOP SUSPECT AS WELL.
-Then, in your next contentful post, YOU MAKE IT OFFICIAL AND

BANDWAGON

ME. You even put me at L-1.

It's pretty much just a streightfoward statement of fact

On a SINGLE SPECIFIC player. You could've said that about MANY other players at the time. You chose Iamausername...why?
Yea...that's a scumslip, Yos2.

an attempt of mine to prevent someone from lurking

This, ITSELF, EVEN ALONE, contradicts your supposed town read on Iamausername. BY YOUR OWN ADMITION, YOU ARE SAYING LURKING IS A SCUM TELL. Which

FUNDAMENTALLY

CONTRADICTS WITH A TOWN READ.

while at the same time stating my current opinion on that person.

You cannot both say they are lurking and that you have a pro-town read on them, when you put so much weight on lurking being a scum tell.

Those are all important, pro-town things to do.

1: Again, they contradict themselves, and
2: SEVERAL other people had contributed EQUALLY LITTLE AT THE TIME OF THAT POST. You chose Iamausername OUT OF ALL THE POSSIBLE OPTIONS.

The fact that he posted after I complained that we needed to hear more from him is *EXACTALLY WHAT I WANT TO HAPPEN WHEN I DRAW ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT SOMEONE IS LURKING.*

AKA, wants your partner to post after you notice he has not...

At least half the time, lurkers are still reading the game, they're just being quiet;

And Iamausername proved this by posting a weak case against me. You seriously didn't have suspicions over that?
Oh, right.
You IGNORED that post.

usually if you point out that they're lurking, they show up.

1: Many others had been contributing about the same amount at the time as Iamausername (read: not very much at all). You chose Iamausername out of all those options.

2: And the fact that Iamausername showed up just after that should've proved he was lurking, no?
Why'd you ignore this fact?

Answer: He's your scumbuddy.

Which is why pointing out lurkers is a damn good thing for pro-town people to do.

Yet you chose ONLY Iamausername,
AND
He showed up immediately after wards, confirming your supposed suspicions of him.

Again, you seem to just be taking everything I say, and trying to put a scummy spin on it.

I'm only seeing what's really there:
Scum.

---

I have to leave, right now, but might I point out this?
As if confirming everything, the very next post after Yos2's is, as I thought, Iamausername. They are caught, they know it, and they are going to stop at NOTHING to get me lynched before them.

[Yosarian2]

Mastin: Any chance you could come out of "Debate mode" for a minute and actually think about what I'm saying, or try to understand what I'm talking about, or perhaps even admit that you may be wrong on certain points?

Right now, it feels like you're just trying to win an argument, not actually trying to figure out my alignment or anything, and it feels like the reason you're trying to win this argument is in order to avoid being lynched. That, actually, is the main reason I think you're scum now; I don't think you care about anything but not getting lynched, all your attacks and votes and posting seem to be based on that, and that's scummy, because scum only care about not being lynched, while the main concern of pro-town people is to find scum.

If you are town, then it would be in your best interests to convince me and the rest of us that you're town before we lynch you. Right now, you're not acting like town, you're acting like cornered scum. If you are town, I would remedy that if I were you. If you're scum, then just keep doing what you're doing, and I'm sure you'll be dead soon.

That is a perfectly reasonable reason to suspect him;

But, somehow, YOU STILL HAD PRO-TOWN VIBES FROM HIM.
I can't see anyone but a werewolf having slipped up so badly with that opinion.

Eh?

He hasn't said that much, but I still think he's more likely town then not. There is no contradiction there. The fact that he hasn't said much is a strike against him, but I think he's town for other reasons.

ARe you really claiming that it's impossible for a town player to not have much content? Because, you know, at the point when I voted you before, you had not posted much content. You only started to post a lot after you were attacked for lurking.

This is NOT the same thing as an accusation.

Correct. Your point?

An attack against your "slightly better than random" vote.

Which totally ignored the explination for it I had already given. And in any case, it wasn't actually an attack against me, because, as I pointed out, you completly failed to give any reason for why that would be scummy, or for why a scum might be more likely to do that then a pro-town person.

Do you really think it's anti-town to do something weird in the first pages of the game, when we have no information, in order to get reactions? I have trouble beliving that, considering you started the game by declaring yourself scum, voting yourself, and demanding that you be lynched.

Tell me, Yos2: What made you use this tactic in this game, rather than an earlier game?

Eh. I thought of it, it seemed like fun, it seemed like it might get some information, I'd never done anything like that before, so I did it. What's your point?

You seem to be trying to describe everything I've done in a way that assumes I am scum

So? So what?
It's called a case AGAINST you for a reason.

(shakes head)

If you are town, your goal right now should be to try to figure out what my alignment is.

If you are scum, then your goal right now would be to try and make everything I say sound bad, without regards to my actual meaning, in the hopes of getting me lynched.

Everything you are doing looks like the second, Mastin. That's "so what".

I've done this COUNTLESS times in my games.

More meta defense...

but none of it actually explains why any of my posts woudl be more likely made by a scum then by a town.

Amongst others, there's that one VERY vital post from you:
On that page, you and Iamausername slipped badly. You
-Started accusations on me,
-Immediately after that, stated how we hadn't heard from Iamausername in a while. SEVERAL OTHER PEOPLE hadn't posted for a while; you chose Iamausername SPECIFICALLY.
-Iamausername then shows up IMMEDIATELY after that, and votes for me.
-Then you, in what I see as the first contentful post since your accusations against me, you vote me.

Um. I pointed out Iamsername hadn't posted for a while. *THIS IS A PRO-TOWN ACTION.*

Iamusername then posted. *THIS IS WHAT I LIKE TO SEE HAPPEN WHEN I SAY I WANT TO HEAR MORE FROM SOMEONE.

Iamusername then voted for you. *THIS IS PROBABLY BECAUSE YOU LOOK SCUMMY AS HELL.* Note that almost half the rest of the town is voting for you too here; Iamusername voting for you isn't exactally a shock.

How is any of that a case against me? Or against Iamusername? When actions have a perfectly reasonable pro-town explination that you completly ignore, it adds to my convinction that you are scum trying to construct a case out of thin air, rather then a townie looking for scum.

Those four are perhaps the most condemning pieces of evidence in existence.

They're not actually evidence for anything, you know. Not even slightly.

That isn't an explanation. It still doesn't say why you didn't think MY response was scummy.

Becuase you didn't ignore it; you specifically continued on your own early game trying to get reactions gambit instead, and specifically refused to declare youself not scum. Again, the fact you were doing something like that was actually why I thought you were pro-town day 1, although it's certanly not a very strong reason and dosn't nearly match your scummy behavior today.

As I said, at the time, my thinking was that scum wouldn't particapate AND wouldn't refuse to participate, they would ignore it completly. You did not.

And, as I said, SEVERAL others ignored it.

And, as I said, FA was the first person to do so.

Are you missing the part where I explisitly stated that what I was doing had probably no validity at all as a scum tell, and it was just better then a random vote? Again, you were voting for *yourself* at this point. Do you really think my vote at this point was worse then any one else's vote at this point?

I responded, alright, but I didn't participate in the activity--

Yes. I wouldn't expect a scum to do that; if I say "declare yourslf not-scum", I wouldn't normally expect a scum to say "No!", it's too risky a move. I would expect a pro-town person to play along, to refuse to play along, or to attack me for the whole concept. Any of those would be a standard pro-town way to respond. I would expect a scum's natural inclination to be to do none of those.

Of course, all of this was really just a silly way to get the game stated, to try to do something more useful then a plain random vote would be. I didn't really expect anyone to take my attack and vote seriously, considering how weak I even said it was, and was a bit surprised when the wagon took off like that.

Which you never removed...

Right. I kept it on as FA became more scummy as the day went on, especally with her demands to lynch the cop. I explained this...

And, again, why'd you use this tactic THIS game, instead of, oh, say, your last, or the one before that?

(shrug) No reason. Why?

It was the second page;

Page numbers mean NOTHING.

Of course they do. What they mean in this case is that there was nothing better to go on at this point.

Yet apparently was enough to keep it on, when at the time, the only thing against FA was the Meta case I had posted, essentially.

Nope. I would not have kept in on FA up to the lynch if that was the only reason I was voting for him.

FA's vote was something which should've been obvious was random.

Eh. You were loudly voting yourself and demanding that you be lynched. Someone else had already voted you as well. I highly doubt FA's vote was truly "random".

Your logic on Kore is...weak.

Lol. Nice defense. [/sarcasm]

I don't need a defense against "you're not mafia, so you must be a warewolf" when I'm town, lol.

Your continued push against me, despite my solid defense

Your defense, or more specifically the way you're using your vote, walls of words, and threats to attack me if I don't back off, is exactally the reason I think you're scum, Mastin. Do you really not understand that?

[qupte] you trying to switch reasonings behind voting me, when you realize your original reasoning is extremely flawed, is further proof of this.[/quote]

Eh? If I'm voting you, and you do something incredibly scummy while I'm voting you, then am I not supposed to point that out?

If you're not a member of the Mafia, then you're either town, or a werewolf.

Right.

Which makes you more likely to be a Werewolf, from your attitude thusfar in the game. ESPECIALLY with Selective Scum Hunting in factor; selectively scum hunting the mafia is proof that you are a werewolf who wants the mafia dead.

...uh, what?

I'm hunting people who look like scum. For example, right now I'm hunting you, and you're probably a warewolf.

Plus, you're "Kore made one comment about Yos being confusing so Yos killed kore for that" explination is really, really weak;

1: This was actually TWO accusations: One, that of proof you're not mafia.
And if you're denying that and saying it's weak...No, it is not.

Well, it's not really that strong, but I'm not going to argue with it, since you are correct that I'm not mafia.

2: The other was that you might've night-killed those who suspected you.

That would be reasonable, if Kore had ever attacked me. She never did, at all. This was pretty much all Kore said about me towards the end of the day:

Yos - worth noting that I have no comment. Plenty of content but I'm still unsure.

And then, later:

I think Yos has already said his reasons? (The Mastin vote, the general feel of the posts, and most of all returning CJ's vote.)

How on Earth would that make you think "Hey, Kore was attacking Yos, so Yos killed Kore!"

The person Kore was attacking before she died, actually, was Wolfy.

Mastin...you're really just making stuff up here at this point. You're inventing facts out of thin air. Do you really not get why I find you scummy right now?

If you are saying you are disagreeing with it, who WOULD you kill as scum?

Um...depends what I was trying to do, but almost certanly, if I was scum I would have killed OGML. He's clearly obvtown and basically unlynchable, and he's been convinced I'm scum all game, like he usually is, and he's a very strong player who's good at leading the town. Unlike Kore, OGML actually was attacking me.

You were one of Kore's only suspects.

100% false.

Quote me the post where Kore attacked me, or said she suspected me, or voted for me, or FOS"d me, or anything. Hint: it dosn't exist. The closest she ever came was the "confuses me" post you quoted, but if you quote the WHOLE post, instead of just one line out of context:

Yosarian confuses me. His play seems town enough, but he appears to be changing his mind every post or other, which does not sit very well.
Need more from Caboose and Tarballs to form an opinion.

In that post, she actually said that my play "seems town enough". And then she never attacked me again, while she did attack someone else.

Pro-tip, Mastin: Lying about what people have said dosn't work in forum mafia. Next time you're scum, I would avoid it.

There's no way you could even assume this unless you were a member of the werewolves, Yos2.

When someone is obvscum, and they get killed by another scum group, it's usually because they were obvscum. Can you think of a different reason kore would have been killed?

Granted, I wouldn't have been trying to nightkill mafia at that point if I was a wolf; there were only two mafia left, they weren't THAT big of a threat; I would have tried to kill someone who looked unlynchable, personally. Still, I can't imagine any other reason someone might kill Kore.

There are THOUSANDS of reasons that Kore could've been night-killed.

Name one. Welll, let me clarify; name one that dosn't involve you lying and making stuff up like your last explination did.

Also, I'm a little amused you're suddenly accusing me of being scum because I was speculating why they might have killed Kore. You were just doing that, like, two paragraphs ago.

so they decided to try and kill a mafia member.

Poor play.

(nods) Yup. So why'd you do it?

FA clearly didn't understand why lynching the claimed cop on day 1 was a bad idea.

I wouldn't say that. To be honest, I was ignoring his attacks against CJ. Instead, I was focusing on his Meta and rolefishing instead. So I didn't exactly see the whole conversation that well. But this explanation sticked out like a sore thumb. You were explaining to him a concept which I think that he should've already known, and you also threw in some wifom where it wasn't needed.

(shrug) Well, I have to do that sometimes. If I have to go all the way to first principles to explain why something is anti-town, I'll gladly do it. Also, what WIFOM are you talking about? I mean, I did want to make sure that my explination didn't get anyone to counterclaim CJ, in the off chance CJ was lying, because that would have been bad for the town.

You're casting doubt...on a player who is NOW CONFIRMED TOWN.

No, I'm explaining why FA trying to lynch our cop was scummy looking to me. I shouldn't HAVE to explain that to you, but like I just said, sometimes you have to go all the way back to first principles.

The best way to find out which one of those was true was to explain it in some detail, and judge the reaction.

This did NOT seem like what you were doing AT ALL.

Eh?

The reaction did not impress me as pro-town, so I didn't remove my vote.

I agree, in that FA wasn't particularly Pro-town...but to not remove it from the reaction? I definitely am not buying it.

I didn't "not remove it for the reaction". I set up a situation where I might have been willing to remove it if FA had reacted in a pro-town way, because I was still trying to figure out FA's alignment. FA did not.

Was that the reason I voted FA? No, but that wasn't what I was asked.

It is to me. When people ask what the case against a player is, to me, that means what was YOUR reason for voting that player.

Um, but that's not what those words mean.

You're trying to make it sound like I was lying here,

And what's the problem with that? I think you are, I think you're caught werewolf DESPERATELY trying to fight back, pushing for my lynch with WHATEVER you can get a hold of.

Hint: You're lynch -1 here.

Have you ever heard of the psycological term of "projection"? That's where you accuse others of doing what you yourself are doing, often as a form of denial. In this case, I think you're projecting, Mastin. You are clearly the only one here who is a "caught warewolf despretly trying to fight back".

If by "selective scumhunting" you mean "selectivly hunting for people who are scum", then yes, i was doing that.

Don't tell me you seriously didn't know what I was talking about, Yos2. You've been playing for years, correct?[/quote]

Um, I was playing for years before Tar ever heard of mafia, Mastin. And no, I never heard of that one.

Reasons are not always necessary

1: Yes. Yes, they are. Reasons are ALWAYS necessary for a vote.

For the ten thousanth time, "Yes they are" is not an argument.

especally when you're right.

Oh, yes. The bandwagon was correct. It landed on scum, a Member of the Mafia.
But no.
It wasn't pro-town.
Selective Scum Hunting is hunting for a specific faction. In your case, you were hunting Mafia members, but not Werewolves. Why?
Because you are one, of course.

Um...no, I was looking for scum. Where do you get "selectice scum hunting" from, anyway?

From your source, this is what Tar said:

1) a player builds a case that is predicated around a player being part of a less-significant scum faction (especially a case built around a specific player being SK and not Mafia), or 2) a player all-but-ignores a specific scum faction or factions when scumhunting.

I wasn't doing either of those. I was voting for someone because they looked scummy. It didn't have anything to do with what scum group they were a memeber of; they just looked scummy. And I was right.

Good pro-town players use their gut to find scum sometimes, Mastin.

So, I'm scum because I didn't buy your "proof" that your lurking somehow wasn't a scumtell?

Yes.
A pro-town player would admit defeat on the points they were making.
Not you.
You switched to other, even WORSE reasoning upon learning that I had defended too well against your accusations.

I'm voting for you BECAUSE YOU ARE ACTING LIKE CAUGHT SCUM. You are acting like scum acts when they get attacked.

I also notice that, despite quoting every single bloody line I wrote (even if it's just to say "No, you're wrong" with no reasoning, like you seem to like to do), you've not responded to my actual arguments against you. Sooo scummy...

Look; meta aside, lurking is *ALWAYS* a scumtell, ok?

No. It is NOT.

-I lurked in 735. I was waiting for enough responses for me to throw together a long post, and wanted extra feedback before posting my own. I had waited until Kieraen had given himself up as the last scum, before claiming cop, for example.
-I lurked in 742. Pretty much the same. I was building a case against AceMarksman (although, really, the main thing against him was Chainsaw Defense against someone who I knew was guilty), but still, wasn't posting in that time. When Jeff voted me, I claimed.
-I lurked in 760. Tried building opinions, and failed miserably several times. I wasn't contributing my all to the game.
-I lurked in 763. I fell six pages behind. It was originally due to laziness and not wanting to log into the game. It later became serious and I fell behind due to it.
-I lurked in 141. Because of it, I fell one page behind, and from then on, was ALWAYS behind and never caught up.
-I lurked in Inventor Mafia rather some bit. And even active lurked.

Guess what?
I WAS TOWN IN EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

Do you know what scumtell means?

It dosn't mean "something that only scum does".

It means "something that scum does more then town".

Even people who always lurk generally tend to lurk worse as scum.

So, no; no amount of meta-ing defense you try to do is going to make it
ok for you to lurk. It's not a huge scumtell, because town do lurk sometimes, but it always is a scumtell.

Scum lurk more then town,

Not in my experience. I've seen town lurk more than scum in my dozen or so games.

Ah, but there's more town then scum in those games.

If you see 2 town lurk and 1 scum lurk in a game, that's STILL actually a sign that it's a scumtell, since there are likely 4x as many town as scum in that game.

and lurking is also anti-town.

I agree. It IS anti-town. But

-ANTI-TOWN IS NOT SCUMMY,
-NOR IS ANTI-TOWN A SCUM-TELL,
-NOR IS IT ANY KIND OF SIGN OF SCUM.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Assume people are playing towards their win condition, as they're required to do under site rules. Then, if they act in a way that is likely to help the town win, their win condition is more likely town. If they act in a way that is likely to help the scum win, their win condtion is more likely scum.

People who act in a way that hurts the town are more likely to be scum then those who don't. Period.

Now, there are SOME CASES where something is anti-town but is STILL not actually scummy, but those are very special cases. For the most part, anti-town=scummy.

In any case, the reason I especally suspected you for lurking dosn't have anything to do with daytalking, or experenced players

Yes. Yes, it does.

Um...you can't tell me why I suspected you, Mastin. That's not how it works...

Your reason for suspecting me for lurking was BECAUSE YOU SAID THAT I FEAR SLIPPING UP AS SCUM, which IS RELATED TO DAYTALKING AND EXPERIENCED PLAYERS.

Not necessarally, no. Scum slip because they know things town don't. Most scum worry about slipping. Experenced partners is irrelevent.

I was commenting that I wanted to hear more from Iamusername.

SPECIFICALLY Iamausername, though. THERE WERE MANY OTHERS WHO HAD NOT CONTRIBUTED A GREAT DEAL,

ESPECIALLY

AT THE TIME OF THAT POST.

You singled out a SPECIFIC player and said that it'd be nice to hear more from them.

Let me check that.

I made my post on:Saturday, June 13, 8:03 PM.

At that point, Iamusername had last posted on June 4th.

You had posted on the 12'th...
Caboose had posted that day
Sotty had posted that day
OGML had posted on the 12th.
Wolfy had posted that day.
Tarballs has posted that day.

So, no. You are either wrong, or are again lying. At the point when I mentioned that we hadn't heard from Iamusername for a while, we had not heard from Iamusername for a while, and THAT WAS NOT TRUE OF ANYONE ELSE IN THE GAME.

You're trying to make it sound like I "randomally" named one lurker out of a bunch of lurkers, and that's completly not true. At that point in time, he was the only person who had not posted, so I specifcally made a point of pointing that out. I had a post specifically devoted to pointing out that he hadn't posted for a while.

It wasn't an *attack* on him, but still, if I had a partner who was lurkerscum, why would I point out he was lurking? Being a lurkerscum actually can be a good scum tactic (which is why it's an inherent scumtell), but only if no one notices it.

Again, Mastin; you clearly aren't actually interested in looking for facts, you're just making up facts out of thin air to try to make me sound like scum.

Even more condemning, SHORTLY AFTER THAT, Iamausername DOES show up, and basically votes for YOUR "suspect" at the time, Me.

Well, sure. Again, you look scummy, I'm not surpised he voted you, or anyone else for that matter.

I also said that I did have a pro-town vibe from the posts he did make, which is true.

This. Is. Utter.

BS

. You've EVEN ON THIS PAGE

STATED

THAT YOU HAVE SUSPICIONS OF Iamausername.
Want the quote? I'll give it to you if necessary. You're TOTALLY contradicting yourself, Yos2. You. Are. Caught. Scum.

dude, don't hurt yourself there, lol.

I think he's probably pro-town, depsite his lurking. As I said, lurking is a scum tell, but it's a weak one on it's own.

You can rant and rave as much as you want, but you're not going to prevent me from stating my opinions, Mastin...

It's pretty much just a streightfoward statement of fact

On a SINGLE SPECIFIC player. You could've said that about MANY other players at the time. You chose Iamausername...why?

Because he was the ONLY ONE NOT POSTING!

Do you actually check facts before you throw around accusations, Mastin?

an attempt of mine to prevent someone from lurking

This, ITSELF, EVEN ALONE, contradicts your supposed town read on Iamausername. BY YOUR OWN ADMITION, YOU ARE SAYING LURKING IS A SCUM TELL. Which

FUNDAMENTALLY

CONTRADICTS WITH A TOWN READ.

Nope.

Let me review again:
Scum tell: something scum are at least slightly more likely to do then town.

So, if someone is lurking, it does not mean they MUST be scum. It increases their ODDS of being scum a little. However, if I have other reasons to think that person is town, then I still may have a town read on someone, despite that.

It's like:

"Ah, he missed that foul shot."

"I thought you said he was a good basketball player!"

"Yeah, he is."

"But you've also said that good basketball players don't usually miss foul shots!!!"

"True."

"Contradiction!!!!!11!"

No, it's not. Pro-town players *shouldn't* lurk, but they sometimes do anyway.

Anyway, you repeat your same bad argument a few more times here, let me just deleate that.

The fact that he posted after I complained that we needed to hear more from him is *EXACTALLY WHAT I WANT TO HAPPEN WHEN I DRAW ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT SOMEONE IS LURKING.*

AKA, wants your partner to post after you notice he has not...

No, I want a PLAYER IN THE GAME to post after I notice he is not, because it's better for the town if everyone is posting.

ARe you really having *that* hard a time understanding why a pro-town person might want to say "Hey, we haven't heard from X in a while" in order to get him to post, even if that person isn't especally suspicious of X?

At least half the time, lurkers are still reading the game, they're just being quiet;

And Iamausername proved this by posting a weak case against me. You seriously didn't have suspicions over that?

How was his case against you weak? It made sense to me.

usually if you point out that they're lurking, they show up.

1: Many others had been contributing about the same amount at the time as Iamausername (read: not very much at all). You chose Iamausername out of all those options.

Dosn't how many times you repeat the lie, Mastin, it's still a lie. There was only one person in the game who had not posted in a while.