Mini 804 - The Resistance - Mod Abandoned

[Albert B. Rampage]

Hey dumbass, why do you think I'm a spy?

[forbiddanlight]

Hey dumbass, why do you think I'm a spy?

Already covered. You suggest I read your posts, but how about you read mine?

However, for ease and convenience, you quite simply refuse to give any reasons why I'm scum while accusing me, you use personal attacks, which is quite frankly, a horrible way to play as town (I'll pull up the post on it in a bit if I have to), you for some reason think discussion is deadly but have not fully explained why, and overall have been doing NOTHING to assist the town.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I think you're a spy because:

1) You try to extend the days as much as possible.

2) You contradict yourself.

3) You buddy up with other players too much

[ortolan]

ABR, is there a reason for your (apparently unprompted) aggression? If nothing else I'm curious

[forbiddanlight]

1) You try to extend the days as much as possible.

Why is this bad?

2) You contradict yourself.

Examples? The whole self nom thing is rather well delineated.

3) You buddy up with other players too much

I do that as either alignment. So what if I'm friendly?

[Fishythefish]

While I don't agree with ABR's frankly psychotic attacks in the main, I do agree that FL's flip-flop on self-nomination is extremely scummy. Therefore, I will

support any proposal that doesn't include FL or ABR.

That's really really dumb.

He's right on this one.
If you believe FL is a spy, you wouldn't accept a proposal she makes just because she's not in it. This is a completely incoherent attitude as a townie, and looks very bad.

[PsychoSniper]

Here's what I think:

If we're going to go with what FL is suggesting (voting for our 3 candidates), I think we need to just put forth our votes

without

specifying whether we're going for townie or scummy ticket, or whom we suspect, at least not yet.

My reasoning is, if say for example, most people agree with this combination:

"I vote X, Y, and Z. I believe X & Y are scum, and I'm going for a scummy ticket."

If Z is, in fact, the scum, nothing is going to stop him sabotaging since he knows he's not going to get most of the suspicion for that when there are 2 others under suspicion in the group.

Whomever we put in the group, we

don't

want them to know if they're suspected by over half the town and under heavy scrutiny. That was one of my reasons for not wanting detalied discussions about whom each person suspect until later. I equated this game with the Dethy Mafia for a reason. I think in a game like this, the discussion has to be centred around the

results

, not the empty sepculation before it.

If we don't reveal what "ticket" we're going for, the scum, if nominated, won't know whether they're getting the spot because they're being trusted or suspected. That makes it harder for them to decide whether they should sabotage. Whatever our motivation for voting whom we vote for can wait till

after

we see the results.

[Fishythefish]

I think the scum knowing what we are thinking is a small price to pay for discussion and scumhunting, likely leading to better results.

Your strategy is going to lead to a mixture of suspected and non-suspected players. This is more likely to be a mix of scum and townie (hopefully)- which isn't the sort of ticket we want.

[PsychoSniper]

I think the scum knowing what we are thinking is a small price to pay for discussion and scumhunting, likely leading to better results.

Your strategy is going to lead to a mixture of suspected and non-suspected players. This is more likely to be a mix of scum and townie (hopefully)- which isn't the sort of ticket we want.

I don't really see what kind of "better" results it'll lead to. I think giving scum too much info about what we think will allow them to manipulate the result into what they want us to see. Letting a scum knows he's heavily suspected gives him advanced warning to fake his move and not sabotage. Letting a scum knows that he's being teamed with townies under suspicion provides him with good scapegoats.

And there's very likely to be a mixture of scum and townie at the end in any case. I highly doubt we have any chance of getting a pure 3-town or 3-scum group right now. Considering there are 4 scum out of 9, literally every single townie will have to agree upon a certain group for that to happen, or the Proposal will likely get voted out/rejected by scum anyway.

Do we even have a consensus on what

is

"the sort of ticket we want" yet?

Mod: My internet access will be limited for the next few days. I might not be able to post again until (latest) Saturday.

[Fishythefish]

Just because we don't have a consensus on whether we want a ticket comprising three scummy or three townie players doesn't mean that a jumble of some of each is acceptable.
If scum have to put forward their opinions, then it is much harder for them to vote down a plan. The vote is open, and if someone makes a vote which is not in line with their general stances, that looks suspicious. Keeping your feelings private leads to easy post hoc justifications of actions which benefit the scum.
The chances of getting a pure ticket may be pretty small. But a 2-scum ticket is acceptable, and I think the chances of getting at least 2 scum on a ticket are pretty good.

[Crazy]

It seems like this is becoming logic vs. scumhunting. I'll admit I joined this game for the logic, but since then I've swayed to the other side. But what we have to watch is that everyone doesn't automatically think the other side is scum... I mean the scum isn't automatically gonna be either "Nabnab/Fishy/Ort" or "ABR/Psycho/veerus," right? I think I've gotten into the wrong mindset, here.

I disagree with Psycho in this case, though, since most everyone already knows where they stand... and he is expressing a situation where nobody reveals any opinions... which is not only bad but impossible since the opinions are already out there.

[ortolan]

I think PsychoSniper's opinions are actually quite well argued. I don't think he has scummy motivations for arguing this way.

That said I think it's going to be obvious what we're opting for at this point based on what we've previously stated.

My current suspected distribution of rebels is me, Fish, PsychoSniper, Naba and ABR

[ortolan]

actually that doesn't seem like such a bad idea to me if we get everyone to give a list of who exactly they think is most likely to be town/scum at this point in time. Any dodginess in the lists may well be apparent.

I will also make the point about KoC that his play is indistinguishable from that in Election Mafia where he was scum for me. That's the only game I have for meta reference. Plus I haven't liked some of his posts, will look over tomorrow.

[Crazy]

I think PsychoSniper's opinions are actually quite well argued. I don't think he has scummy motivations for arguing this way.

I don't think he has scum motivations either... I just don't agree with him.

I'm gonna read again before I say who I think the team of 5 rebels is, since there are a couple people who I just haven't noticed one way or the other.

[forbiddanlight]

Ok...so, should I just put forward the proposal I put or should we do guided? I'm not sure what you all are saying, and now I notice rebel lists being made.

[Crazy]

Ok...so, should I just put forward the proposal I put or should we do guided? I'm not sure what you all are saying, and now I notice rebel lists being made.

Well, I don't trust your original proposal, because I think you're scum, and now I'm thinking Nabnab is scum. Fishy I'm unsure about.

It doesn't seem like everyone's really in for a whole-town guided proposal, though...

[forbiddanlight]

Well, I don't trust your original proposal, because I think you're scum, and now I'm thinking Nabnab is scum. Fishy I'm unsure about.

It doesn't seem like everyone's really in for a whole-town guided proposal, though...

Well, I honestly don't care about your opinion because I feel that you are scum and pretty obviously trying to mislead me. But whatever.

[Crazy]

Well, I don't trust your original proposal, because I think you're scum, and now I'm thinking Nabnab is scum. Fishy I'm unsure about.

It doesn't seem like everyone's really in for a whole-town guided proposal, though...

Well, I honestly don't care about your opinion because I feel that you are scum and pretty obviously trying to mislead me. But whatever.

How am I trying to mislead you? I've hardly stuck to the same opinion for more than 5 minutes at a time in this game, and my last post clearly didn't have a point at all.

[forbiddanlight]

How am I trying to mislead you? I've hardly stuck to the same opinion for more than 5 minutes at a time in this game, and my last post clearly didn't have a point at all.

That post came out badly. What I meant was mislead the town...it was badly phrased.

[Fishythefish]

I think FL should put forward a proposal.

Rebel
Me
NabNab
ortolan
FL
Veerus
Pyscho*
Crazy
Spy
I have no read on ABR or KoC. Pyscho I have a read on as scum, but frankly I've no idea why, and he needs rereading.

[ortolan]

Fish I meant in the same format as mine. Who would you say, if you had to choose, your five picks for most town are (you know the distribution of the game includes five rebels so who would you wager those are if forced to choose the most likely)? Feel free to also indulge me Crazy and FL and anyone who posts subsequently.

[Crazy]

Fish I meant in the same format as mine. Who would you say, if you had to choose, your five picks for most town are (you know the distribution of the game includes five rebels so who would you wager those are if forced to choose the most likely)?

Isn't the answer to this question rather obvious?

[Knight of Cydonia]

Oh, I like that. You can't read me, therefore I'm a spy. Charming.

FYI, I am only a spy in TF2. Where I spend a pleasant evening strafing behind 4 Red Snipers, knifing as I go.

[Fishythefish]

Oh, I like that. You can't read me, therefore I'm a spy. Charming.

Hmmm? My post doesn't label you a spy. To clarify, when I say I can't read you it means I can't read you. I've no idea what you are.

The rebels, in descending order of confidence:
Me, NabNab, ort, FL. I suppose the fifth would be KoC.

Pyscho fits in with the theory that my proposal was good for scum- he supports it with half-baked ideas:

So yeah, I agree with Fishy. Daytalk in the thread is the only way for scum to communicate, and there's nothing concrete for town to discuss until we see the results of the first porposal, so short day benefits town today.

Daytalk paranoia- daytalk is something to look out for, but as long as we do that it can't happen without immense risks for the scum

Also, wouldn't the logical strategy be to leave the scummier players in the plan to gain more information? If more people are suspicious of Crazy, that's a logical place to start, he should be left in.

At the time, Crazy was being suspected of breadcrumbing. Having a breadcrumbe in the plans is a terrible idea. I don't like the phrasing, "if more people are suspicious of Crazy"- it displays an unwillingness to commit to a position himself. If Pyscho thinks Crazy is suspect, then he should say so- if not, the argument is invalid.

But I still believe it makes more sense to keep some scummier-looking players in the proposal. Unless we have reason to suspect both ABR and NN as well, I see no reason to cahnge the random setup.

This makes no sense- as Psycho had already acknowledged, we don't want a 1-scum proposal. If ABR and NN don't look bad, that was a reason to vote down my proposal.

Good job, you've just told you're fellow scum that "Hey, if you get grouped with Psycho, feel free to sabotage, because we'll just blame it on him!"

This post is a

far

better example of possible scum communication than anything Crazy has posted so far.

Seriously, stop giving scum hints of what to do, intentional or not!

From this point of view, we need to keep all of our opinions secret- pretty much as Psycho goes on to say.

His recent ideas are interesting, but in practise don't work. We can't just take a mishmash of whoever people want, with no consensus as to whether we want scum or town- that will just end up as a horrible mixed bag of protown and scummy players. I find the idea of hiding our opinions most antitown- we want to be able to pin scum to their positions. Particularly if people express their thoughts before a proposal, it's going to be harder to justify voting a convenient way for the scum. The flipside, of course, is that if FL is a spy she can craft the proposal to get accepted while still being proscum.

This is not exactly a brilliant case. But all in all, Psycho fits well with the idea that scum were in favour of the random proposal. If he is scum, I would expect exactly one of the people on my ticket to be scum- and conversely, if there is one scum on there Pyscho is a likely candidate.

[ortolan]

Thankyou Fishy

now for the other 7 of you