Mini 780 - Chosen - Game over

[springlullaby]

I'm for leaving the Nuwen spot alone as I do not think Nuwen is so lame as to replace out just to avoid being caught as scum. If she was indeed scum I have no problem with throwing the win to her, and hope she enjoys it, hollowly.

Yo! Reading. Will post later.

Really waiting for this.

Way to put pressure on me, dude. Everyone in this game is scummy.

One thing I've really picked up on that I find odd is that there are two people in this game that I'm in another game with, and they both seem to be behaving a tad differently in this game than in the other. In Spring's case, I find it interesting that she's not being game-killingly oobnoxious here.

1. This may come as a surprise to people of little imagination but I'm actually playing a game, and the personae I may wish to assume in one or the other are as ephemeral and diverse as I wish them to be.
2. Here, no one has yet proven to be as astonishingly unintelligent and vapid as you, amongst others (not to mention your game-killing lurking), have been in that other game of which you make mention. I hope you leave the fail out of the door this time, it's never too late to improve.
3. I hope you were affronted by the above, it was destined to be slightly mean, as no doubt your post to my attention was. Please consider my jive here a fair retribution for your out of line and pointless reference about

another ongoing game

as well as the expression of a sincere wish to leave the matter at that.

[Incognito]

Vote Count #4 of Day 2

AceMarksman (1) <-~ springlullaby
springlullaby (2) <-~ hp [leaves], AceMarksman
DizzyIzzyB13 (1) <-~ Albert B. Rampage

Not voting (3) <-~ DizzyIzzyB13, populartajo, ekiM

With 7 living, 4 will do it.

Tuesday, June 9th at 7 P.M. EDT.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

It's nice to see Spring isn't just a complete and total bitch in just the one game, then.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

vote: Spring

, btw.

[springlullaby]

Alright I will ask for

MOD: arbitrage now, please

because I object to the insult and the nebulous vote that seems to be motivated by nothing else than some sort of vendetta.

DizzyIzzy, what is your vote supposed to mean? Is it mafia motivated at all? Or strictly personal dislike?

If it is the latter, I will ask you to go make a thread about it in GD or something and leave it out of the game because your action is puerile.

[Incognito]

Please:

Treat this game as a commitment and

be courteous to your fellow players.

I find that this is the best way for everyone to enjoy the game. Thanks. =)

&

Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, alliances, etc. Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.

I will not tolerate personal attacks. You have been warned. Thanks.

[ekiM]

Mike, this is your list. Now tell us what do your comments mean in level of scumminess.

Nuwen - Called cases on Law weak early. Criticized his "tajo-scum is more useful than hp-town" comment.
Spring - Neutral early, later put him at "lynchable" before leaving for the weekend.
Albert - Called Law as possible Chosen. Called a lynch on hp/law bad. Eventually voted Law to L-2.
Tajo - Law kept casting weak aspersions on you/q21. You called him scum from the second you replaced in. You also asked us to lynch Law instead of hp, in the end.
hp - Couple of weak question during the day, eventually hammered.
Ace - Said Law was leaning scum early, Law kept voting and unvoting him. Middle voted Law citing the voting/unvoting. Also suggested Albert/law team. "Ok, 19 hours guys. If we get within an hour and law hasn't been lynched, I'll switch to hp (as should others, just in case I'm not on)." Hmm. Then when Law was close to being lynched he was very keen to emphasize how much he was on the wagon.

Um, I would think that is pretty obvious, but...

Nuwen - No connections, so either town not very interested in Law or scum maintaining non-interaction.
Spring - No connections, so either town not very interested in Law or scum maintaining non-interaction.
Albert - Strange bus if it was one.
Tajo - Would've had to be a hard bus, possible but seems less likely.
hp - Hammered when he was sure to die, could easily be bussing.
Ace - Looks like distancing early, possibly moving to Law's wagon was a planned bus which was then executed sloppily. Calling Albert + Law scum when Law was not in focus, and the "scumslip catch" after the hammer were weird.

And I already gave you my overall suspicions based on the above and individual scumminess.

Also, almost the only thing you said today was that you think it was not a bus, based on gut. Is there anything else behind that thought? It's hard to be persuaded if you don't give any reasoning...

vote: Spring

, btw.

Is this just based on personal dislike? Or what are you doing?

[populartajo]

Mmm, I have this crazy feeling that its either Mike or Nuwen(Izzy). Ill give my thoughts after I get my job finished.

[populartajo]

Alright I will ask for

MOD: arbitrage now, please

because I object to the insult and the nebulous vote that seems to be motivated by nothing else than some sort of vendetta.

DizzyIzzy, what is your vote supposed to mean? Is it mafia motivated at all? Or strictly personal dislike?

If it is the latter, I will ask you to go make a thread about it in GD or something and leave it out of the game because your action is puerile.

This.

Even though, spring you cant really complain when you have treated people like stupid town and some other insults in this very game.

Dont treat others as you dont want to be treated, they say.

[springlullaby]

Alright I will ask for

MOD: arbitrage now, please

because I object to the insult and the nebulous vote that seems to be motivated by nothing else than some sort of vendetta.

DizzyIzzy, what is your vote supposed to mean? Is it mafia motivated at all? Or strictly personal dislike?

If it is the latter, I will ask you to go make a thread about it in GD or something and leave it out of the game because your action is puerile.

This.

Even though, spring you cant really complain when you have treated people like stupid town and some other insults in this very game.

Dont treat others as you dont want to be treated, they say.

1. Calling on people's stupidity is not an insult within game argument. If I wish to present arguments demonstrating how someone's reasoning is stupid, it is up to you to present your argument to prove otherwise if you disagree.
2. You are in no position to tell me not to "treat others as you dont want to be treated" given that you have repeatedly called people 'retarded' in this very game.

Why should I not complain? At no time did I cross the frontier to personal insults in neither game, and I am certainly not bringing vendetta in my play, about another

ongoing game

no less.

This whole thing is absolutely tedious and puerile and it needs to stop now.

[hp [leaves]]

Choose convinced camp.

Vote Lawrencelot

Fos Nuwen for not bandwagonning.

Hi Claus

A minor tell but the newer scummers often vote their partner in RVS.

springlullaby: What do you make of players who lament the lack of activity in a game without actually adding anything new themselves?

I would think that it's pretty scummy. Do mean to imply that I am such?

While having posted this:

What, 40+ pageview since last I checked in and only 2 meek random votes?

What are you lurkers afraid of?

I don't find Lawrencelot to be as scummy as people makes it appear. I don't see scum doing such a blatant flip flop that early in the day, that would be terrible maladroitness..

Not her opinion, but her reasoning.

Want to write more, but got no time.

[populartajo]

Kay, some people say that Ace and hp are still possible Law buddies. I strongly disagree. I see some merit in the Ace case presented by Mike but still doesnt fly.

Look, there is a line between scum distancing and scum going against someone to make him look bad. Some people think that Law was distancing with Ace and viceversa, and some other people (like me) think that Law was attacking Ace to make him look bad.

A decent assumption is that scum only bus if they win any advantage of it, and its even less probable in this kind of games where there are only 2 scum. I really dont think Law and Ace were bussing that aggressively as early as day 1 (see my post 372 for reference) . I can see no benefit of it. I would expect this kind of bussing later in the game or when one of Law or Ace would be the obvious lynch of the day. Too much unnecessary attention against one or the other and too early, specially with someone like hp as the obvious milsynch of the day.

The kind of bussing I expect in this 2scum game is this:

*

Lawrencelot

(5): spring, Nuwen,

Claus

, Tajo, ekiM
* hp [leaves] (5): spring, Nuwen,

Lawrencelot

,

Claus

, ekiM

Lynchlist analysis: Law's scummate was bussing him. I'll read these three for how hard they pushed for the lynches.

Even worse when Law puts the same exact three people in his "rest" group.

Good lynches:
hp

Not bad lynches:
Ace, ABR (if you don't take chosen stuff into account)

Worse lynches:
populartajo, no lynch?

Bad lynches:
rest

[populartajo]

With that said, I dont think hp, Ace and ABR (his egocentric attitude regarding the Law lynch feels sincere) are scum so I decided to analyse these three people:

spring, Nuwen and Mike

First, spring:

Choose convinced camp.

Vote Lawrencelot

I really dont see spring random voting her scumpartner day 1.

-1

I don't find Lawrencelot to be as scummy as people makes it appear. I don't see scum doing such a blatant flip flop that early in the day, that would be terrible maladroitness.

Mmm +1

I'm rescinding what I said about Law, I have them at lynchable now because his 250 is too appeasing and middle of the road for my taste.

Good to know.

Post 108 is pretty similar to my thoughts on Ace. Plus that he keeps avoiding to attack hp, which would be consistent with his other posts. I do wonder though where 109 comes from, could you quote that scumslip for me springlullaby? Because I haven't noticed it.

This is a question that its unlikely to ask to a scumpartner and it even gives me more reason to clear Ace. The reasoning is this:
a)In a 2scum game, scum are less likely to suspect both aggressively one person. Both Law and spring attacked heavily Ace and the above quote : "can you quote me the scumslip?" feels more like a scum generating townie-townie fights rather than scumpartners coordinating an attack in Ace. Therefore, Law-spring is discarded.
b)Now, what kind of scumpartner is so fixated in finding a scumslip from his scumpartner? Therefore and for other previous reasons, Law-Ace is discarded.

[populartajo]

Now, Nuwen (Izzy)

Nuwen started the game fixating in three OMGUSes in random stage. One of the OMGUSers was Law. Then a massive debate started. This is what Law had to say:

Btw, even though I'm with SL and Nuwen here, that doesn't necessarily mean I think they're town, or that q21 and Claus are scum, or even that I like discussing theory right now. We are having a disagreement, about whether discussing things helps the town or not

I see Nuwen got what she wanted with her theory about OMGUS, but I still would like to add that my (random) vote wasn't even OMGUS, as you can notice from the post itself, so you were kinda chasing nothing there. I don't really think this is scummy though.

I get a "scum sucking to a wordy Nuwen" feeling here.
Posteriorly, he only mentions her when I share that Spring-Nuwen realtionship felt off (he disagrees).

Lets see what Nuwen gave us about Law:

Why is Lawrence leaning scum? Besides cursory comments about ellipsis, this is the first time you mentioned him.

Feels like a fair question both a town and a scumpartner could ask.

This is the item standing out to me from Lawrence. Disagreement, especially about theory (or how useful theory is, which ironically constitutes a theory discussion unto itself) is not a reliable scum tell.

Soft attack here but I would expect Nuwenscum to not attack Law here if he were her scumpartner for this reason.

-1

I think the cases on Ace and Lawrence are pretty weak; HP, even while absent, has proved himself remarkably anti-town.

Strong defense of Lawscum and push of hp.

+1

(Its also good to notice that Nuwen was a heavy hp supporter).
Law starts getting the hate. This is what Nuwen commented about Law.

populartajo is infinitely more useful to the town than hp, even if he was scum.

No. Bad. What the fuck. Living scum are never beneficial to the town, especially if they're active - active scum are not susceptible to lurker policy lynches and work to shape the opinion of the entire town.

Strong attack that chains in a "I support a Law lynch".

Lawrencelot (1): spring, wobbly Nuwen

I cant discard Nuwen-Lawrencelot possible scumpartnership. There is the point that both scum wouldnt support aggresively hp, but still feels a very likely scumpair.

[populartajo]

Finally, Mike:

He (Law) had contributed slightly more, but not by much. Right now, the three biggest non-contributers are Hp, Lawrence, and Ace. Lawrence has written more words, but only just said more than Hp in terms of content.

Both a scumpartner and a town could say this.

Nuwen, I agree with what you're saying about hp; he's blatantly anti-town. If there was no other lynch target and enough people agreed, I would be OK with an hp lynch. However I think there are scummy players worth pursuing. What is your opinion on Ace and Lawrence?
Lawrencelot, are you planning on thinking for yourself at any point?

Arg. I dont like this. I really dont. Feels like a weak distancing. I dont like how he singles out.

+1

Huh? You're refusing to discuss anyone but Law? So which of the competing bandwagons are you distracting from, I wonder?

Hate this defense. Which is a heavy change to his previous "Law is scummy" to "Tajo is defending his scumpartner that is not Law"

+1

Vote: Populartajo

Just lynch poptajo he's the best candidate

You still didn't explain why.

You're criticizing someone's vote while following their vote..?

Soft attack here.

Scummy: Tajo, Law, ABR.
Scum: Ace, hp.

Law is again scummy.

* Lawrencelot (5): spring, Nuwen, Claus, Tajo, ekiM

Interesting enough, Law didnt comment anything of Mike in the WHOLE game. This is one point that makes me wonder about Mike. Would Lawscum be so distracted to not mention his scumpartner at all?

However, Mike's opinions of Law that somehow go to scummy-not scum-scummy again is too awful for my taste. Also, I would expect a more townie analysis of the Law lynch from him but so far he is still too worried in remarking that ace and hp, (and even mine, wtf) are still likely bussings.

We have only one way to find it out:

Vote: Mike.

[hp [leaves]]

Choose convinced camp.

Vote Lawrencelot

I really

dont

see spring random voting her scumpartner day 1.

+1

Fixed. Other than that pop's analysis looks pretty good.

But I still want to get SL lynched for reasons I mentioned+demoralizing the townies. Her reaction to Izzy's vote smells like scum

spirit

paranoia.

[Incognito]

Ace and ABR have been prodded.

[ekiM]

Choose convinced camp.

Vote Lawrencelot

Fos Nuwen for not bandwagonning.

Hi Claus

A minor tell but the newer scummers often vote their partner in RVS.

I don't think Spring qualifies as a "newer scummer". Do you? You also voted for Law in RVS...

springlullaby: What do you make of players who lament the lack of activity in a game without actually adding anything new themselves?

I would think that it's pretty scummy. Do mean to imply that I am such?

While having posted this:

What, 40+ pageview since last I checked in and only 2 meek random votes?

What are you lurkers afraid of?

I don't find Lawrencelot to be as scummy as people makes it appear. I don't see scum doing such a blatant flip flop that early in the day, that would be terrible maladroitness..

Not her opinion, but her reasoning.

Want to write more, but got no time.

Not seeing anything of substance here. You're also ignoring my questions still: Why were you lurking yesterday? Is that going to continue? If you think Law was buddying up to Tajo-town, why did you suggest that today's lynch be Tajo?

But I still want to get SL lynched for reasons I mentioned+demoralizing the townies. Her reaction to Izzy's vote smells like scum

spirit

paranoia.

Yeah, this is implausibly bad reasoning.

Vote: hp [leaves]

Kay, some people say that Ace and hp are still possible Law buddies. I strongly disagree. I see some merit in the Ace case presented by Mike but still doesnt fly.

So you see some merit in the case and yet you strongly disagree with it? Huh?

Look, there is a line between scum distancing and scum going against someone to make him look bad. Some people think that Law was distancing with Ace and viceversa, and some other people (like me) think that Law was attacking Ace to make him look bad.

Disagree. What is "the line", then? I'd say attacking someone to make them look bad is a form of distancing. If your distancing isn't credible then it failed in its purpose.

A decent assumption is that scum only bus if they win any advantage of it, and its even less probable in this kind of games where there are only 2 scum. I really dont think Law and Ace were bussing that aggressively as early as day 1 (see my post 372 for reference) . I can see no benefit of it. I would expect this kind of bussing later in the game or when one of Law or Ace would be the obvious lynch of the day. Too much unnecessary attention against one or the other and too early, specially with someone like hp as the obvious milsynch of the day.

So you're convinced that Ace is town based off of their interactions, yet you see no benefit in a scumpair doing their interactions? How about that those interactions apparently convinced you that Ace is town? Is that not a benefit?

As for all the interactions you listed in 372, Spring already responded in 387 and you haven't given any indication that you've done anything other than completely ignore that post.

By the way, nothing you've mentioned above has anything to do with showing why you don't think hp was bussing. Yet you "strongly disagree" that he could have been. Why?

Post 108 is pretty similar to my thoughts on Ace. Plus that he keeps avoiding to attack hp, which would be consistent with his other posts. I do wonder though where 109 comes from, could you quote that scumslip for me springlullaby? Because I haven't noticed it.

This is a question that its unlikely to ask to a scumpartner and it even gives me more reason to clear Ace. The reasoning is this:

a)In a 2scum game, scum are less likely to suspect both aggressively one person. Both Law and spring attacked heavily Ace and the above quote : "can you quote me the scumslip?" feels more like a scum generating townie-townie fights rather than scumpartners coordinating an attack in Ace. Therefore, Law-spring is discarded.

b)Now, what kind of scumpartner is so fixated in finding a scumslip from his scumpartner? Therefore and for other previous reasons, Law-Ace is discarded.

By questioning the validity of the scumslip, isn't Law weakening the case on Ace? That seems to be the opposite of what you conclude from b). More on a) below.

Nuwen, I agree with what you're saying about hp; he's blatantly anti-town. If there was no other lynch target and enough people agreed, I would be OK with an hp lynch. However I think there are scummy players worth pursuing. What is your opinion on Ace and Lawrence?

Lawrencelot, are you planning on thinking for yourself at any point?

Arg. I dont like this. I really dont. Feels like a weak distancing. I dont like how he singles out.

+1

You seem to have stuck together two quotes from two different posts here. And I don't know what you mean by "singles out".

Huh? You're refusing to discuss anyone but Law? So which of the competing bandwagons are you distracting from, I wonder?

Hate this defense. Which is a heavy change to his previous "Law is scummy" to "Tajo is defending his scumpartner that is not Law"

+1

I found both the suddenness of the Law wagon and your tunneling in on him odd, which made me wonder if the wagon might be scum driven. I don't see how this contradicts having found Law scummy.

Interesting enough, Law didnt comment anything of Mike in the WHOLE game. This is one point that makes me wonder about Mike. Would Lawscum be so distracted to not mention his scumpartner at all?

Seems like that would be a pretty elementary error, no? And judging by Law's join date, I don't think he's a rookie.

However, Mike's opinions of Law that somehow go to scummy-not scum-scummy again is too awful for my taste.

I don't think I said at any point that Law wasn't scummy. I was just dubious of his wagon when it started up suddenly.

Also, I would expect a more townie analysis of the Law lynch from him but so far he is still too worried in remarking that ace and hp, (and even mine, wtf) are still likely bussings.

So a "townie analysis" is "an analysis that agrees with Tajo"? Sorry, I don't think that's so. I've looked at the wagon and I see no reason that hp or Ace couldn't have been bussing. And you reasons against it seem to be mostly gut. Actually, I haven't seen anything against an hp bus from you, and I can't just trust your gut about Ace over Albert's and Spring's (and mine).

Also, I never said that you were a likely busser. I said the opposite - I said if you were bussing him it would have had to be a hard bus, so it was possible but unlikely.

As near as I can tell you've gone through every interaction Law had with the 3 people who weren't on his wagon and arbitrarily given it + or - points based on gut. Nearly every point you've written could easily be argued the other way. Look at this for example:

a)In a 2scum game, scum are less likely to suspect both aggressively one person. Both Law and spring attacked heavily Ace

You said that about Spring, but it could equally well have applied to me. No?

You're not high on my suspect list because of what I said above about it having to have been a hard bus, but I do think you're trusting your gut too much and trying to make the evidence fit, rather than looking at the evidence and then drawing conclusions.

[hp [leaves]]

Choose convinced camp.

Vote Lawrencelot

Fos Nuwen for not bandwagonning.

Hi Claus

A minor tell but the newer scummers often vote their partner in RVS.

I don't think Spring qualifies as a "newer scummer". Do you? You also voted for Law in RVS...

I still keep thinking this year is 2008 X/

springlullaby: What do you make of players who lament the lack of activity in a game without actually adding anything new themselves?

I would think that it's pretty scummy. Do mean to imply that I am such?

While having posted this:

What, 40+ pageview since last I checked in and only 2 meek random votes?

What are you lurkers afraid of?

I don't find Lawrencelot to be as scummy as people makes it appear. I don't see scum doing such a blatant flip flop that early in the day, that would be terrible maladroitness..

Not her opinion, but her reasoning.

Want to write more, but got no time.

Not seeing anything of substance here. You're also ignoring my questions still: Why were you lurking yesterday? Is that going to continue? If you think Law was buddying up to Tajo-town, why did you suggest that today's lynch be Tajo?

As you see, I'm not lurking anymore. I lacked motivation D1, but after hammering Lawscum, I'm feeling better than ever. Also as my mood changed, my view changed also. I think that I made the comment of scum buddying up D2, wile I made the other one on D1, before Law flipped scum.

But I still want to get SL lynched for reasons I mentioned+demoralizing the townies. Her reaction to Izzy's vote smells like scum

spirit

paranoia.

Yeah, this is implausibly bad reasoning.

Vote: hp [leaves]

Spring has done many pointless attacks on players. I don't see any town motivation in those. (Like when she wanted q21 lynched when he requested replacement)

[Albert B. Rampage]

what's up with the game? don't answer this question with a question / give me a straight answer describing how you view the current state of affairs, and i might get my head back into the game.

[Albert B. Rampage]

what's up with the game? don't answer this question with a question and give me a straight answer describing how you view the current state of affairs, and i might get my head back into the game.

[populartajo]

Im sorry about my activity in all my games. V/LA until the 2nd.

[hp [leaves]]

what's up with the game? don't answer this question with a question and give me a straight answer describing how you view the current state of affairs, and i might get my head back into the game.

Spring is scum. ekiM is scummy. We lynch Spring.

[AceMarksman]

Yeah, pretty sure I'm arguing with scum. If anyone beside Ace want me to answer, please ask, and I'll do.

Go ahead.

Well scum? We're waiting.

[Incognito]

Bumping vote count.