Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia. Game over!

[Adel]

-----

Right now all I see is blather: I do not see a coherent case against Artem.

refine you argument into something clear and concise please... otherwise I'll continue to consider your case to be pseudo-random bullshit.

So is your objection based on

substance

(i.e. instances where Artem has been understood to be scummy by his attackers) or on

style

(i.e. instances were Artem's attackers have not properly stated what they understand to be scummy)?

primarily wagon mechanics (it ain't a bus, and there isn't a scum-driven competing wagon) followed by substance (unconvincing) and then style.

Also, what of SpyreX's quote block?

Someone who has been there to snipe and jump on some spurious bandwagons.
Someone who unapologetically wanted a bandwagon for "generating content".
Someone who gave a rather lengthy post explaining in detail why at any given point his reads can change. In selfsame post also gave a page 7 "feeler" list of some townies (but of course not the entire game).
Someone who is justifying this latest move with meta. Sigh. Further, with a sample set of 1. Double Sigh.
Someone who agrees that said meta is weak, apologizes and then votes.

utterly unconvincing blather.

I'm being more open about my process here since

I don't expect to live long in this game

Why not?

in my last game, on I replaced in on day 2, during night 2 with 12 or 13 players alive, two out of the three players with night moves two of them targeted me. I expect to get night killed in this game, obviously.

[Herodotus]

You're at three votes, and you consider wagons to be pro-town, so you should be happy; again your response looks inconsistent with a town alignment.

I would have been fine with tacking on a sarcastic ^________^ where the semicolon is or something, but are you suggesting that Artem is scummy... for arguing against his own wagon? Are you serious?

That's a fair point. I was seeing Artem more as unhappy about the existence of the wagon on him than as arguing against the specific points. I really need to reread; I think there are some posts I've only read once so far.

I'm being more open about my process here since

I don't expect to live long in this game

Why not?

Are you serious? While Adel's statement may not have been a great idea, I don't see how your question (to which the answer is obvious) is helpful.

@ADel: You definitely have until the lynch, which probably won't be for at least a week, and while it's obviously possible, I wouldn't take it for granted that you'll be night killed.

[Herodotus]

I wrote these earlier and was going to include them with my previous post, but forgot:

"I'm parking a vote on you. So what? Shouldn't you be happy since you like wagons. Your behavior is inconsistent"

compare:
"

Sure, but given that I have a somewhat scummy read on you, I don't see that as a bad thing. You're at three votes,

and you consider wagons to be pro-town, so you should be happy; again your response looks inconsistent with a town alignment. " I do not like how you left out some critical parts of what I said.

@Porkens, Spring, Vi, and anyone else who may be familiar with him:
Is it normal for Spyrex (as town) to prefer a short day 1?
And to dislike meta?

[Porkens]

Is it normal for Spyrex (as town) to prefer a short day 1?
And to dislike meta?

yes

[Adel]

@ADel: You definitely have until the lynch, which probably won't be for at least a week, and while it's obviously possible, I wouldn't take it for granted that you'll be night killed.

lol at veiled threats.

[populartajo]

Im here catching up all i missed

[Artem]

You just wrote, and I can't believe this:

Here is the list of people I find scummy: The people voting me + a lurker.

Does that make the things I presented wrong? If so, how?

2- The reason your suggestion is 'lol scummy' is as follow: you are proposing that I, as scum, threw off my meta in the interest of framing you - this is stretching and amounts to conspiracy theory.

Tell me, were I scum, what interest do I have not to play to my town meta which garnered a town read from you?

Isn't this WIFOM?

Sure, the theory may be a little stretching, but your reaction to it piques my interest.

As far as I believe; wagons are only useful if they have the potential to end in lynches.

So I ask you again, have you never seen wagons where it's obvious that the player is not going to be lynched? I simply stated that explicitly. I explained what wagons are good for in 254. Two of the things I gave don't require the person to be lynched (i.e., 1) Divison of players into on-wagon and off-wagon categories; 2) Prematurely asking for a claim.)

Can you explain your vote on me? If you didn't mean to attack me, then I don't understand why you're voting me if we're having a simple misunderstanding.

Wait, what? I've been putting Artem down as frustrated Town up until now. Reading it again... You seem right. The post before it seemed like it was at terms with Herodotus as well. Artem?

I hate to admit it, but yes, frustration was a contributing factor to the SpyreX's vote. If you're talking about timing, then I first started to get frustrated with him in 189, where he was gloating over an obviously wrong point.

I disagree entirely.

WAGON FISHING ALERT

MAN YOUR STATIONS

THIS IS NOT A DRILL

And aren't you just as stubborn, anyway?

Ok, didn't realize that the answer to these was not obvious:

[sarcasm]

Ok, you caught me. I want you hung up high until your legs stop kicking. Darn, wish my vote was a little more subtle.

Adel voted for you too? How grand!

You what else? Korts has expressed interest in reiterating his points against you. Wish he'd hurry up and voted you.

[/sarcasm]

Sarcasm aside

, you're way too stubborn to be town (especially in this group). You haven't even tried putting any effort into understanding what town motivations I may have. No, it's all scum motivations, somehow.....

You're either a) a dense townie, who doesn't see my point of view, but who nevertheless is pursuing a lead (as somebody said), or b) a scum, who is purposedly closing his ears to my PoV because you need somebody to "sink your teeth in". Currently, I'm leaning towards b).

I'm considering both points of view, which makes me non-stubborn.

Could you precisely define "scumhunting" for me?

Identifying scummy behavior and following it up with explicit, or implicit (but obvious) questions.

"Sure, but given that I have a somewhat scummy read on you, I don't see that as a bad thing. You're at three votes, and you consider wagons to be pro-town, so you should be happy; again your response looks inconsistent with a town alignment. " I do not like how you left out some critical parts of what I said.

Alright, the "so what?" part may have been an oversimplification, but I think I got the spirit of your post right.

[Vi]

Are you serious? While Adel's statement may not have been a great idea, I don't see how your question

(to which the answer is obvious)

is helpful.

Is it? I wouldn't have asked if I thought the answer was obvious.

@Porkens, Spring, Vi, and anyone else who may be familiar with him:
Is it normal for Spyrex (as town) to prefer a short day 1?
And to dislike meta?

I don't know about a short D1, but he does dislike meta. How does this influence your read on him?

I do not like how you left out some critical parts of what I said.

They're not that critical if they don't change my objection.

-----

Ok, didn't realize that the answer to these was not obvious:

Oh those. Sorry about that <.<

Identifying scummy behavior and following it up with explicit, or implicit (but obvious) questions.

I don't quite agree with this, but this raises an interesting question. What is your opinion on Adel?

[Herodotus]

Are you serious? While Adel's statement may not have been a great idea, I don't see how your question

(to which the answer is obvious)

is helpful.

Is it?

I wouldn't have asked if I thought the answer was obvious.

Yes.

I do not like how you left out some critical parts of what I said.

They're not that critical if they don't change my objection.

Not you, Artem. I was quoting his manipulative misquoting of me. Within the context, Post 302, the reference was clear, and he answered in post 306. (One point in favor of quote pyramids.)

-----

Right now all I see is blather: I do not see a coherent case against Artem.

refine you argument into something clear and concise please... otherwise I'll continue to consider your case to be pseudo-random bullshit.

So is your objection based on

substance

(i.e. instances where Artem has been understood to be scummy by his attackers) or on

style

(i.e. instances were Artem's attackers have not properly stated what they understand to be scummy)?

primarily wagon mechanics (

it ain't a bus

, and there isn't a scum-driven competing wagon) followed by substance (unconvincing) and then style.

I'm curious about why you think that.

[Adel]

(insert appeal to experience here)

[Vi]

I do not like how you left out some critical parts of what I said.

They're not that critical if they don't change my objection.

Not you, Artem.

[more stuff]

I know.

[Adel]

@father of history- while I think that you were correct about that one thing you pointed out about Vi, I don't think that your post pointing out that what he was pointing out probably isn't pro-town, probably also isn't pro-town.

@Elmo: are you down with a Herodotus wagon right now?

[Herodotus]

@Adel:
I see; sorry, and please don't worry about it. I wasn't saying that Vi's question makes Vi scum. Maybe it wasn't worth bringing up.

For now, I can accept your appeal to experience in lieu of reasoning (though its validity would depend on your alignment.) If Artem isn't being bussed at all, then it is not as likely that he is scum.

@Vi:
You realize this sub-conversation just went:

Herodotus

: ABCDE

Artem

: You said "ADE", so you gained some scummy points.

Herodotus

: Not just "ADE", I said "

ABC

DE". You left out some critical parts.

Vi

: They're not that critical if they don't change my objection.

Herodotus

: I meant Artem.

Vi

: I know.
You can certainly speak for yourself when you decide what is critical within posts, but this gave a different feel than that. Again I'm not saying this looks scummy, it's just... weird.

@Artem:
I definitely don't see what's wrong with parking a vote on someone you find scummy. Is it just that I stopped making arguments against you? I do vote-hop when I find it more useful.

[Korts]

Is Troll less scummy, then?

Well he wasn't scummy for those reasons, his position regarding early game interactions is just anti-town--what I'm suspicious of him for is what Elmo quoted from me: he takes great care in 229 not to interpret anything other than lack of contribution as scummy.

I wonder, were you trying to shift my arguments against Troll into a more refutable position? It would make sense, coupled with your light attacks against him, in a distancing scenario between you two.

Elmo 230 effectively calling SpyreX/Artem a town-town debate. Noted.

Noted... how?

Elmo is slightly scummier for this is what I was saying.

in my last game, on I replaced in on day 2, during night 2 with 12 or 13 players alive, two out of the three players with night moves two of them targeted me. I expect to get night killed in this game, obviously.

While I usually admire your WIFOM trap, you have given little reason for scum to nightkill you. Please be less reactive. Post 304 isn't too convincing either.

[Vi]

@Herodotus: I'm quite aware of that. My objection is in DE, which is unabashedly poor reasoning for pushing an Artem lynch.

I know not everyone had the same amount of time on Memorial Day weekend, but we need more player variety in here.

I wonder, were you trying to shift my arguments against Troll into a more refutable position? It would make sense, coupled with your light attacks against him, in a distancing scenario between you two.

Not at all. It's Troll's place to answer the arguments against him.
Or was this a rhetorical question?

Elmo is slightly scummier for this is what I was saying.

Why?

While I usually admire your WIFOM trap, you have given little reason for scum to nightkill you. Please be less reactive.

This, Herodotus, is why I asked Adel the question in the first place.

[Zorblag]

Troll be back from an unexpectedly horrid weekend. Troll needs to look at what has been said since Thursday but Troll will be posting this afternoon and wanted to let all know what timing to expect.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Artem]

I don't quite agree with this, but this raises an interesting question. What is your opinion on Adel?

I'm not sure. I'm still waiting for the "reveal", both in terms of what information he got out of our answers, as well as his reasons for voting SpyreX and Porkens. Although, based on what he said, I can already guess the reasons.

Although it seems like a good scum tactic to stay mysterious and appear busy, I think that such gambit will only last so long before the other players catch onto the fact that very little information has been revealed. As such, I'm having a null/slightly-town read on Adel, but with every passing day that he withholds information, I would be more and more inclined to consider him as scum.

In short, time will tell.

[Porkens]

in my last game, on I replaced in on day 2, during night 2 with 12 or 13 players alive, two out of the three players with night moves two of them targeted me. I expect to get night killed in this game, obviously.

obviously every game will go down exactly like your last one.

So I ask you again, have you never seen wagons where it's obvious that the player is not going to be lynched? I simply stated that explicitly. I explained what wagons are good for in 254. Two of the things I gave don't require the person to be lynched (i.e., 1) Divison of players into on-wagon and off-wagon categories; 2) Prematurely asking for a claim.)

This is why I don't think you've understood my question or problem with what you've said. But for the sake of argument; no, I can't think of a wagon which OBVIOUSLY (popular word today) wouldn't end in a lynch. Then again, I probably would pay enough attention to such a pointless, stupid wagon to remember it.

Once again; if you

know

the wagon isn't going to end in a lynch, what's the point? That's like A pointing a gun at B (one that everyone involved knows is not loaded), and people making decisions based on A and B's actions.

[Ectomancer]

I'm hear! Please say im not replcade!

Cant say much right now because it is taking me 10-20 seconds to type out some worsd. I'll catch up as fast as U can and givr some commrntds sorry qabout the spelling errirs/. im tierd of correcting

[Vi]

I'm hear! Please say im not replcade!

Cant say much right now because it is taking me 10-20 seconds to type out some worsd. I'll catch up as fast as U can and givr some commrntds sorry qabout the spelling errirs/. im tierd of correcting

If this post is any semblance of what you're promising in the future, then I'm sorry, but you need at least temporary replacement.

[Elmo]

Korts, this "bandwagon fishing" is empty buzzwords until shown otherwise. There is no reason he should care about the context; a vote on someone he suspects is good from his point of view, regardless of why. Your other reason for voting Artem is entirely vague and I want you to clarify it right now. Spell it out for me. Also, I second Vi's question, and I'd like to know why you merely "noted" it instead of asked me about it. And again, why are you not willing to follow up your gut feeling about Herod - distancing, or will you ever get serious about it? You've not acted

at all

like someone who feels uneasy about him, mostly agreeing with him in ways that look uncritical at best to me. Do you have a similarly bad feeling about Artem?

Not you, Artem. I was quoting his

manipulative misquoting

of me. Within the context, Post 302, the reference was clear, and he answered in post 306.

"I'm parking a vote on you. So what? Shouldn't you be happy, since you like wagons?"

You're at three votes, and you consider wagons to be pro-town, so you should be happy; again your response looks inconsistent with a town alignment.

He did not misquote you, he communicated your stated stance precisely. You were asserting that since he approved of bandwagoning, he should be happy with the wagon on him and not be attempting to defend himself or direct votes elsewhere, which is

ridiculous

as Vi notes. You complained about him not including the fact you suspected him which

does not change what he said

. Making the statement you did is scummy regardless of anything else. The fact you insist on calling it manipulative when there is absolutely no indication of intent to manipulate is yet another case of you throwing mud wherever you think it'll stick.

Is it normal for Spyrex (as town) to prefer a short day 1?

YOU ARE DOING IT AGAIN! He did not say he wanted a short day 1, he said he wanted to avoid an overly long day 1, which is pro-town. Then you throw mud about

Artem

misrepresenting people. Why aren't you dead yet, again?

Porkens: Unless I'm mistaken, Artem's lack of intention to

immediately

lynch the person whose wagon he does not exclude the wagon having potential to lynch them. You wouldn't typically expect someone to say "WE NEED TO LYNCH X IMMEDIATELY" early in the day, but early bandwagoning is commonplace. And yeah, Herod's unvote is ridiculous, it's like he doesn't genuinely believe Artem is scum, unsurprisingly - no wonder Artem sees a huge difference between this and the aggressive townie he played with before. Maybe you should do something about that, y'know, with a rope?

@Elmo: are you down with a Herodotus wagon right now?

YAUS! GO WAGON GO~ Newbie 770 finished, btw.

Artem continues to be town and I will happily argue with anyone who asserts otherwise (is voting him) if they care to engage with me; providing reasoning would be good, it seems like most people on the wagon haven't given (m)any. It's just a wagon that's 'good enough' and not on me, without any real expectation of lynching scum.

That

is unacceptable.

@Artem: Your vote would be very comfortable on Herod! Come on over ^_^ Porkens' vote for you lacked reasoning, but there's more votes on Herod which makes for a more effective wagon, and he's been worse overall in my opinion.

I want a rough stance from everyone on {Spring, Troll, Herod, Korts}.

[Adel]

from that list only Herod really is pinging as scum right now.

[Adel]

tajo and I have joined mafia 94. tajo: post more in this game please..

[Ectomancer]

I'm hear! Please say im not replcade!

Cant say much right now because it is taking me 10-20 seconds to type out some worsd. I'll catch up as fast as U can and givr some commrntds sorry qabout the spelling errirs/. im tierd of correcting

If this post is any semblance of what you're promising in the future, then I'm sorry, but you need at least temporary replacement.

Scared? Sanity can blur your thinking.

[Zorblag]

Troll wants to address things that were said in springlullaby's Post 263. Quoting all of the conversation will be a waste of space but at the same time it will be relevant to what Troll has to say. Troll will be quoting selectively here and encourages all who no get the context from the quote alone to refer back to the original post.

This is a justification of your vote, and what you are justifying is a vote on someone who has not posted during 5 days, 3 of which were weekend absence. Your complaints about my vote on Artem having no precedence is especially weak and actually quite the unfair argument, were I town and truthful in my motives, there is nothing that I could do about it.

Troll be voting for someone who might have been V/LA over a weekend but then started posting that she was reading when she got prodded on Monday, followed with the question to the mod, posted a single question about the posts just before it on Tuesday and finally got to contributing on Wednesday. Again, if you had something holding you back about some interactions on Monday when you asked the mod the question that no be a reason to give nothing past that.

Troll no was complaining about springlullaby's vote on Artem particularly. Troll said that Troll no had an issue with it on it's own. Troll was answering springlullaby's question about what benefit stalling might have.

Well, what do you expect me to answer you. I posted that question because it crossed my mind after catching up, and did it independently of game analysis because it was a short question and took no time at all. I hadn't gotten around to write my thoughts down at that point yet, in fact I wouldn't have the time to do it before 1 day afterward. I'm sure my use of tenses is a mess here but I can't be bummed to figure it out.

Here again what you write is a justification of your vote describing a plausible scummy explanation of my action whereas disregarding the fact that it is not the likeliest. The fact that you took 1 serious big paragraph to write it is nothing positive in my book. The following: "Troll no cares for the the implication that you no know the answer to the question" is particularly inane and unfair, were I town, don't you think that I would indeed not know the answer to the question?

If springlullaby had made her time limitations clear at the time it might have not have been an issue. Right now Troll looks back and sees none of that information available when it would have been relevant. Troll simply sees a statement that springlullaby was reading and a couple hours later a question to the mod. Troll also stands by Troll's statement about not caring for the implication. If you be town then it be clear you no know it but the post still reads to Troll like an attempt to bring this idea up whether it be true or not.

If springlullaby be town then Troll no has any particular read on Porkens based on that. Troll simply believes that it be unlikely that two scum would have interacted the way that you did at the start of the game. You could both be town or it could be one town and one scum but Troll finds the both scum scenario to be implausible.

For Artem and Ectomancer, it be more than just a defense of you. It be the idea that it be OK for you to lurk. Neither one be saying that you be town. Both be giving reasons not to make a read on you yet which be noteworthy. Again, should you turn up scum Troll no will simply assume that one or both of them must be your partner but them will be looking at more closely.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Firstly this is technically false, Artem gave me a town read. Secondly, asking me to be accountable for Artem and Ectomancer's actions is both unfair and scummy.

No, it be technically true. Artem said you be playing like you have in past games with him when you were town. Him no said you were town this time. Beyond that, Troll no be using what Artem and Ectomancer be saying about you as a reason to vote for you. Troll was again answering a question you asked. In this case Troll was explaining why it would be worth looking at them should you flip scum.

Zorblag, I'm noting with interest here that you say you agree with some of the reasons indicting Artem's guilt, that you say "you could even vote him", and that you even suspect him of being 'my buddy', all this while voting for me. This strikes me as doubly strange because, beyond the fact that it is unusual, I judge there to be better and stronger reasons to be voting Artem than your vote on me which amounts to 5 days lurkerhunt and a second point which is quite inane.

So here is the question for you. How would you judge my scumminess in comparison to Artem's? Why?

Now now, you are not allowed to turn into saying that I'm blame shifting. I'm asking this because in the event of Artem flipping scum, which I think is going to happen more and more, I see your post here to be soft distancing from Artem by saying that you find him scummy while not voting for him, and at the same time setting a mislynch by implicating me as Artem's scumbuddy. And if Artem flips scum, I want your written words here on why you are not voting him despite saying that he is scummy, and why you are pushing me on what I see as a weaker case.

OK, first off, where does Troll say "you could even vote him" or even "Troll could even vote him" for that matter? Troll further no be accusing Artem of being your buddy. Troll just be saying that should you be scum Artem (and Ectomancer) be more likely to be scum. It no be a biconditional; the implication only goes one way.

Troll also no appreciates the implication that Troll will try to avoid your question. Had Troll been avoiding answering question previously in this game it might be different but the tone you be taking here simply strikes Troll as condescending and an attempt to make it look as though Troll be attempting to dodge questions.

As Troll said previously, there be aspects of Artem's play that Troll no has cared for but springlullaby currently seems more likely to be scum to Troll. Artem has said some things that Troll disagrees with and which strike Troll as potentially scummy but them be fairly minor. When Troll cast the vote for springlullaby it was due to the inactivity and the reaction to Porken's initial post as much as anything else but now what Troll finds suspicions be how springlullaby be dealing with any attention at all. Troll simply be pointing out what Troll dislikes about springlullaby's play and answering the questions that she has asked and the response has been to take what Troll has said out of context and argue that there be no case at all. Troll no be trying to convince everyone to vote for springlullaby; Troll will let them make their decisions on their own as Troll always does but springlullaby still be acting in what Troll considers to be a scummy manner.

Troll will try to find the time to look through springlullaby's previous games carefully to assess this behavior against what she has done in the past but Troll's time for the game be limited at the moment. If any others would care to comment about the similarity to what she be doing now with what she has done as scum in the past Troll be happy to listen to it.

Hm. Troll's 229 seems awfully careful not to interpret anything other than lack of contribution as scummy. Artem's vote being put down as a "frustration vote" seems a bit of a reach to me; note that the vote came in 220 and the expression of frustration only in 223, after another SpyreX post debunking most of the material Artem had.

Troll would say that the frustration from Artem be coming through in post 220. One can be frustrated without saying it explicitly and the arguments Artem be giving at that time strike Troll as frustration. It also strikes Troll as odd that the post from Troll in which people accuse Troll of only disliking inactivity be Post 229 but perhaps that be because Troll was voting for inactivity as much as anything else. Troll be talking about a number of plays there which Troll finds interesting. For Artem in particular Troll gives a list of things him had done which Troll found on the scummy side.

I want a rough stance from everyone on {Spring, Troll, Herod, Korts}.

Troll would say springlullaby be scummy and Herodotus and Korts be neutral (with Korts tentatively town).

-Zorblag R`Lyeh