Newbie 769 - Game Over

[Tenchi]

I think Serial mentioned that I've only been popping in when my name has been read, and only to defend myself. I think its pretty natural for me to do that (defending myself atleast) and I think its also a lot more pro-town then Tenchi defending himself and simultaneously attacking Hero.

Nope. I think you are less pro-town for being too careful to step on any toes on D2. Similar with Toledo, the best that you have done toward suspecting another person is... I can't even find one in my notes.

And you know what worries me, is that you demonstrated your piggybacking without providing any specifics here:

I also think feeres brings up an excelent point.

For some reason, you are quick to announce Kiku as very townie, when she has failed to address the large movements and just sniped at minor details IMO. No attacks have been made against her and she seems to actively hunt these logical inconsistencies, but I'm not convinced that she wouldn't be scum who just lets minor slips of her scumbuddy to go by if those would happen.

This is very true and I think we should pursue it,

I feel you are fueling a Feeres vs Kiku argument without putting your neck out there.

EDIT: OMG, Kiku beat me at this point, post 334, at the bottom.

I know that its been mentioned multiple times that I could be scum with Toledo. Yet I'm not even sure why toledo is being suspected in the first place? Has he said something in D2 thatI've missed? Because I didn't notice anything in Day one.

The main arguments for Toledo being scum are (1) subtle rolefishing and (2) using rehashed arguments, without putting his neck out. I also notice his subtle speculation on the NK, a noob-scum tell.

And what's worse here is that you are deflecting being connected to Toledo. In that quote, I feel that you wouldn't have tried to question a case against Toledo had you have not have an alleged connection with Toledo.

@Tenchi - Thank you for your analysis, it was obviously a lot of work. Two things I would note about it, and this is just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt - I wouldn't write about what scum tells you're looking for in other people. I'm a big believer in honest and open reasoning, as my posts have demonstrated, but there are some things worth keeping to yourself, and the things you're looking out for in other people are one of them.

If I were scum, I could look at your list before every post and know how to make sure I don't raise your suspicions.

It is a psychological game.

In the case of scum reading my tells, I think that them changing how they act, or reacting to what I wrote is actually advantageous for us since it provides a level of discomfort -- obviously, only scum are the only people who would be wary of doing the things that I am watching for. Town, on the other hand, has nothing to lose from me telling them what I am watching for, since they shouldn't do that in the first place.

The other is that your conclusions are a little lacklustre, and possibly swayed by STARTING from the point that Hero is scum. I understand that's your position, and you've been like that for all of D2, but I think a little more open-inded ness might have helped you out a little.

I STILL think Hero is/has a strong chance of being scum. However, I still blame myself for not finding his partner. On the other hand, Hero might not be scum after all, but I still have to read some other posts...

I am pursuing it! I wanted to get other people's reactions to it and see what they think. As you can also see, earlier in the post I had said I was running out of time.

You always seem to jump into the arguement to agree on something but never actually say anything new except with the arguement with feeres. Its just looks like you've been lurking and only replying to agree or to defend yourself. And this whole post that you've said is essentialy just you defending yourself.

Problems here:

1. UNDERLINED PART:

I give the benefit of the doubt here.

Still find the whole thing scummy
2. BOLDED PART: Unjustified deflection. Have you read other posts of Kikuchiyo? She has said little on the Feeres-argument.

I'm going to have to disagree. They'd been arguing for a quite a while now and nobody really has shown interest except each other, and Toledo. I do agree that overall it doesn't sound very safe, but if they got suspicion off of each other then had the lynch, the result of the lynch would determine who was suspected. And since they would probably be controlling it, they would know who is suspected. And now since as it seems, I'm going to be lynched or Toledo, that would mean the other will PROBABLY get the investigate by the cop (if we have one).

Nobody has shown interest because most of you have not given firm stances on it. SC is neutral, thinks both of us a prob-town. Kikuchiyo thinks I'm scum. Hockey (You), Toledo and Feeres are in the middle. Now, if you suspect that Tenchi vs Hero is just bullcrap, then why are you not voting for either of us?

All: Since mine or Hockey's lynch at this point is pretty close to guaranteed, I have a question: if the person who is lynched turns out to be protown, what will become of the other? No need to say what will happen if me or Hockey comes up scum, I can figure that one out.

Why are you asking this? Of course you don't care about the scenario in which YOU are lynched. If you are town, why would you care about how we feel about Hockey on D3 (assuming he's alive)? In which case...

... you only care about the scenario when Hockey is lynched. In which case, if Hockey does flip town, you are wondering what your position will be after that.

Tenchi has basically been trying to set everyone up to look like scum just by describing their play.

No. I described everyone since I am not 100% sure of who is who in this game. On the off chance that you, SC or Feeres is scum, I think I have pinpointed what you would actually do, as scum, when "time is ripe".

[Tenchi]

Mod: Delete double post. Sorry and thanks.

I still think that Toledo is the best lynch for today. The quote from Toledo (see above) just confirmed him to not face the cases against him, and did not even speak of any other additional association or suspicion aside from voting for me.

Vote: Toledo

I will switch my vote to Hockey if necessary, although my theory on him being scum (partly) hinges on the flip of Toledo.

[SerialClergyman]

Kiku - my suggestion would be to pick one of Toledo or Hockey. I'm not telling you who you have to vote for, or saying that a vote for Tenchi isn't worthwhile, but given there's only 2 days before deadline and we do have 2 scum around who can switch their vote any time over the next two days, I'm uncomfortable with spreading our votes around lest a last minute switch sees a townie going home.

@ all - I've been thinking about whether to switch to Toledo, but I really am more convinced about Hockey than Toledo. I know it's a little odd given I subbed into the game and my first major post was to get everyone to focus away from Hero v Tenchi and onto Toledo, and I do think he's acted funny, but just since I've come along and started pointing fingers at people, I can't help but find hockey the more scummy option. I hope that's because both of them are scum, which would be nice and easy, but since it's rarely nice and easy, I feel like I should put one last suggestion to the group, to re-read my post where I switched to Hockey, which you can find here

Have a look at the reasons I switched, and just how Hockey has continued ot sit on the fence, be wishy-washy, come up with inane cases, throw red herrings around etc etc. Then add that to his participation in the quicklynch (kiku - I know he didn't hammer, but the person who leaves it open to hammer that quickly is essentially doing the same thing) and his most recent posts and I am currently quite convinced he'd flip scum.

I also feel if he doens't we have a relatively easy target in Toledo to follow. If he does flip scum, I think we can probably narrow it down to tenchi or toledo and we have 2 lynches to get it right, so that works nicely.

If Toledo flips scum, then we have a good guess to go with in Hockey, but if Toledo is town we face a damn tough 5 man lylo tomorrow.

Anyway, I'm glad the suspicion is on those two primarily, I think their lynches will definitely give us the most information, and I'm pretty sure we'll find scum - I just lean one way rather than the other, I guess.

[SerialClergyman]

Oh - I should also add something about night roles.

I still don't know if we have any night roles, but we do have a 75% chance of having at least one, so it's worth considering it strategically.

I think a doctor should be aiming at one of the most 'town-y' people in the group. Obviously, I can't say who that is, nor do I think it should be definite - that makes it easy for the scum to just pick someone else. So if I were a doc, I'd pick the top 2 or 3 towny people and protect one of them.

As for a cop, I would suggest that picking the non-lynched out of Hockey vs Toledo (assuming one of them is lynched) is also possibly not the best idea. Say we lynch Toledoscum. The natural choice tomorrow would be Hockey. If he's guilty, the cops investigation doesn't matter, we'd have got him anyway. If the cop's investigation is innocent, he can claim, then we have 2 confirmed innocents, but the cop would certainly die or be roleblocked the next night, so we'd enter lylo with 1 confirmed innocent, which isn't the best result in the world. I think an investigation on someone like Tenchi might end up being much more valuable. If you find scum, you can claim and we win (much better than finding scum on Hockey in the scenario above). If you find innocent, you can either claim and we'd be in a similar situation to the situation above, or you could keep the info to yourself/breadcrumb it and have a very real possibility of 2 confirmed innocents at 3 man lylo which wins us the game.

Again, I don't want to discuss how many roles we have or who has them, I'm just saying if those roles exist, this is some advice as to how I'd procede at night.

[kikuchiyo]

^^^ is a scummy, scummy post. By attempting to direct night actions you are revealing yourself to not be a power role which has now narrowed down scums nk choice to find a possible actual power role. You seem to be set on steering this lynch from Toledo. If it is Hockey/Toledo, then why so against it?

By you reasoning I find Toledo a much more secure lynch at this point. Until that last post I was unsure, but I can certainly envision Serial/Toledo.

Unvote, Vote Toledo

Claim please. Noone hammer.

[SerialClergyman]

^^^ is a scummy, scummy post. By attempting to direct night actions you are revealing yourself to not be a power role which has now narrowed down scums nk choice to find a possible actual power role. You seem to be set on steering this lynch from Toledo. If it is Hockey/Toledo, then why so against it?

By you reasoning I find Toledo a much more secure lynch at this point. Until that last post I was unsure, but I can certainly envision Serial/Toledo.

Unvote, Vote Toledo

Claim please. Noone hammer.

I'd be curious to see if everyone else agrees with you because I think that's a poor series of logical steps.

Firstly - I think I made it clear I was letting people know my thoughts on the roles. I am not claiming to be a role or not be a role. Nor was I directing choices, it was letting everyone know my thoughts which I have quite consistently done. Even then, I didn't give explicit instructions, just told people why I thought some choices were better than others.

Secondly - even if you ignore the point above, and I conceded that I was directing actions and essentially claiming a non-power role - how does that make me more likely to be scum? My points are still valid, there is still much more point to trying to protect pro-town players if there was a doc and investigate the non-obvious-lynch targets. I can't see much in that post that would benefit me as scum. (perhaps the only point is that if someone was following my advice, and we lynched Hockey, I wouldn't recommend a verdict on Toledo. But I would still recommend a lynch on Toledo the next day. So it is of no benefit to a Serial/Toledo partnership.)

Thirdly - It can't be a 'scummy post because it has shown myself not to be a power role which has narrowed down scum's nk choice'. That sentence doesn't make sense. If I was a vanilla townie, you might consider it a stupid post that benefits mafia, but that doesn't make ME scum - I would be a vanilla townie. If I was scum, I wouldn't need to narrow down the night choice because I'd already know I wouldn't be killing myself. So concluding that I'm scummy because you feel I have narrowed down nk choices is simply logically false.

Fourthly - 'By your reasoning I find Toledo a much more secure lynch' - I'll take that to mean you find me scummy or suspicious so therefore you're not inclined to do what I suggest - that's fine. If you mean my actual reasoning, I'm advocating the opposite so I don't know what about my reasoning suggests to you a Toledo lynch.

Fifthly -

You seem to be set on steering this lynch from Toledo. If it is Hockey/Toledo, then why so against it? Until that last post I was unsure, but I can certainly envision Serial/Toledo.

That's just a frustrating statement to read. Perhaps it's because you're sick, but it's a total misrepresentation of my posts. I led the charge on Toledo since I got in here, forced him onto the public consciousness, which until I got here was fixed on a tenchi vs hero debate - which you were a part of. It would have been easy if I were scum with him to pick a side and then go with it. Now we as a group are deciding between two DIFFERENT people, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that I was a major spokesperson in getting the town to look around for other suspicious characters. That does not make any sense as scum, especially not as scum with Toledo, because the main reason anybody is voting for Toledo at all is my first analysis point where I voted Toledo and urged people to look at his behaviour.

And even aside from the pretty poor suggestion that I am scum with Toledo, you still ask why I am against a Toledo lynch? Well, if you had read the post a couple above this one, or the post it linked to, you'd see a long list of reasons why i feel Hockey has shown himself to be more scummy. You'll also see why I feel a lynch of Hockey will give the town more information. To summarize -

a) A Hockey lynch will, on a town flip, let us know that tenchi/hockey isn't true and toledo/hockey isn't true. i feel that these are the two major scumteams that I can envisage.
A Toledo lynch will, on a town flip, only eliminate 1 of those choices. If he flips town we will have LESS information than if Hockey flips town.
If they flip scum, we'd just lynch the other, almost certianly. So a Hockey lynch is the same as a Toledo lynch in terms of information if scum, but BETTER if town. Check out 341 for more on this.

b) Hockey has thrown a number of red herrings into the group discussion, including a bizarre tenchi/hero scumteam accusation. He has still been active while being very wishy-washy, is yet to vote, is yet to put forward a decent case or scumhunt or do anything protown that I can see. Toledo hasn't done much better, but asked a reasonable question about what we do if they flip town, and hasn't done anything more scummy.

c) Hockey was part of the quicklynch, which is perhaps the single most scummy action so far. This also goes against Tenchi, and I think suspicion is rightly still on him, but Hockey has added far more scummy posts compared to Tenchi since then. Toledo wasn't (although Toledo did rolefish, which Hockey didn't).

So while I still endorse either of those two, and do feel they are the likliest scum team, I do think that Hockey is a better lynch.

However - the main thing was to get people voting for one or the other of them, because if the situation remained how it was before I asked people to vote yesterday, the highest vote count on a single player was 2, and any scum team could have lynched whoever they wanted to. This way, one of the people the town and myself find scummy would be sure to go.

As for how your post reflects on you - I don't think I have enough room to second-guess my choices now. We only have 1 life left - one mislynch. Any more and we lose the game. So one bad bit of reasoning does not scum make. But honestly, that was a poor, poor post, in my opinion. One miught say I'm biased because I was attacked, but I think a lot of my reasons above aren't even able to be construed in a biased fashion - they just don't make much sense at all unless you assume some huge wifom case. (maybe instead of doing the logical, easy and non-risky thing and heating up the hero v tenchi debate, SC urged the town to look elsewhere, put suspicion on his scum partner, continued to urge people to suspect and vote for him, then voted for his other major target while still advocating his scumbuddy's lynch either today or tomorrow.)

[kikuchiyo]

Thirdly - It can't be a 'scummy post because it has shown myself not to be a power role which has narrowed down scum's nk choice'. That sentence doesn't make sense. If I was a vanilla townie, you might consider it a stupid post that benefits mafia, but that doesn't make ME scum - I would be a vanilla townie. If I was scum, I wouldn't need to narrow down the night choice because I'd already know I wouldn't be killing myself. So concluding that I'm scummy because you feel I have narrowed down nk choices is simply logically false.

I am concluding you to be scummy for making the post, not for "narrowing down" the nk choices. You are attempting to portray my post with you r own logical deduction. I see no reason for a townie to be making that post at this point the game, therefore, it is scummy.

Your "firstly" and "secondly" bascially contradict themselves. You defend yourself with "firstly" and then admit that its not true.

That's just a frustrating statement to read. Perhaps it's because you're sick, but it's a total misrepresentation of my posts. I led the charge on Toledo since I got in here, forced him onto the public consciousness, which until I got here was fixed on a tenchi vs hero debate - which you were a part of. It would have been easy if I were scum with him to pick a side and then go with it. Now we as a group are deciding between two DIFFERENT people, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that I was a major spokesperson in getting the town to look around for other suspicious characters. That does not make any sense as scum, especially not as scum with Toledo, because the main reason anybody is voting for Toledo at all is my first analysis point where I voted Toledo and urged people to look at his behaviour.

You have much to gain as Toledo's scumpratner by setting him up for lynch but not following through. I.e. if he gets lynched as scum, you look good, if Hockey is lynched and flips town, you can bring the debate back to Tenchi/Toledo tomorrow. I am sick, but not stupid.

c) Hockey was part of the quicklynch, which is perhaps the single most scummy action so far.

^^ This is a major part of what I disagree with. Tenchi quicklynched. If Tenchi is scum then Hockey becomes more suspicious. You call it the "single most scummy action so far," yet you attribute it to the wrong person to fit your case for lynch.

maybe instead of doing the logical, easy and non-risky thing and heating up the hero v tenchi debate, SC urged the town to look elsewhere, put suspicion on his scum partner, continued to urge people to suspect and vote for him, then voted for his other major target while still advocating his scumbuddy's lynch either today or tomorrow.)

Maybe. You were certainly earning "townie brownies" in my book.

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry kiku - maybe others disagree, but in my opinion it was a bad case.

Firstly and Secondly don't contradict each other. I don't admit it's not true at all, I am saying in Secondly that EVEN IF firstly wasn't there, and I completely conceded that point to you (WHICH I DO NOT), there's still no reason to think I'm scummy because of it.

The Thirdly point I'm convinced is just logically true, you can't argue about it based on differences of opinion, it's just a truism. Your defence was that I'm misrepresenting you, but I don't think I am. Have a look -

^^^ is a scummy, scummy post. By attempting to direct night actions you are revealing yourself to not be a power role which has now narrowed down scums nk choice to find a possible actual power role.

That does not make sense. 100% just doesn't. Either I'm scum, in which case eliminating myself from NK options doens't help me so it is not a scummy post , or I'm town and therefore NOT SCUM. The core of your post says that I'm scummy for narrowing night options and that does not make sense and I don't think you can escape that.

If you're saying I'm scummy for some other reason, then by all means say it, but your post clearly states that as the reason, which is quoted just there, your words.

I see no reason for a townie to be making that post at this point the game, therefore, it is scummy.

That statement isn't true - if you're going to say it's scummy, you need to give a reason why it would benefit scum. You havn't done that, and I can't imagine how it would have helped scum at all. Hence it does not make me more likely to be scum.

But just to appease you, I'll give you a reason anyway. I'm a townie who is concerned about poor night choices costing us the game. I don't want our cop, if any, to waste his inquiry on someone WE WERE GOING TO LYNCH ANYWAY. I don't want our doc, if any, wasting their protect on a random person when there are more obvious possible targets.
I'll give you another reason. I'm a townie with a night choice who is trying to give people a bit of an idea about where I'm heading without tipping the scum off about my role or my choices.

One of those reasons is true.

You have much to gain as Toledo's scumpratner by setting him up for lynch but not following through.

I have a hell of a lot more to gain by just pushing for a Tenchi lynch when I sub in. Then a Hero lynch the next day, because the town had practically agreed one of them had to be scum. Come on, this line of reasoning is ridiculously far fetched. You might as well say Hero and Tenchi are a likely scum team, or You and Feeres for your argument on Day 1. Either you're making this case in an 'anything is possible' way, in which case I agree it's possible but it's so unlikely it's not worth talking about, or you're making this case in a serious way in which case your reasons are really tenuous and poor.

I wasn't saying you had to be sick to make that post, sorry, I didn't mean to offend, I don't think you're stupid at all. I just thought that your sickness may have caused you to read lightly some of the posts where I had a number of good reasons for choosing Hockey over Tenchi. I doubt you've actually gone back to 341, for example, because you haven't quoted or referenced it.

We disagree about the quicklynch. I think Hockey and Tenchi both have serious black marks against their names, you only think Tenchi does. Well, that's just a point of contention. It doesn't make either of us scummy. I would continue to say that putting someone on L-1 before they've claimed early on day 1 and inviting someone to lynch is close to as bad as lynching them. You don't - fair enough. But if you can see my point of view, and if you can see that I at least have a point, even if you disagree, you can see why I would favour Hockey over Toledo for that reason.

You also completely ignored a) and b) of my reasons to pick Hockey over Toledo. Even if you feel that c), the quicklynch issue, was a bad reason, explain to me why a Toledo lynch is better than a Hockey lynch in light of a) and b) (more info if they flip scum and Hockey's recent scummy posts). And even if you don't reply ot this point - please realise that saying I could be linked to Toledo because I 'suddenly' want to lynch someone else more when I have 3 (or at least 2 if you dont' agree with c) ) perfectly good reasons to favour Hockey over Toledo is unfair and a misrepresentation of my posts.

Your townie brownie points go back to the anything is possible argument. if you think that WIFOM-filled case has any serious power you're kidding yourself, I would suggest. Check this out for more info.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Too_Townie

If you're keen - read back over my early posts and ask yourself what you would have donei f you were scum-partnered with Toledo and subbed into this game when I did. It would just be a ridiculous move to make.

[kikuchiyo]

That statement isn't true - if you're going to say it's scummy, you need to give a reason why it would benefit scum. You havn't done that, and I can't imagine how it would have helped scum at all. Hence it does not make me more likely to be scum.

The wifomic nature of the statement is what's scummy. Why does the statement need to benefit scum in order to be scummy? I believe that is fallacious. Your post does not help town, it also suggests that town cop SHOULD NOT investigate you. I.e. the entire staement in your post supports only your pov and arguments.

That does not make sense. 100% just doesn't. Either I'm scum, in which case eliminating myself from NK options doens't help me so it is not a scummy post , or I'm town and therefore NOT SCUM. The core of your post says that I'm scummy for narrowing night options and that does not make sense and I don't think you can escape that.

you are allowed your own interpretation of my post, but it is just that: your interpretation. You are connecting the dots in a particular way to fit your defense. I am okay with that, but please stop trying to put words into my mouth. I never said, "This is my reasoning" and then stated my reasoning for thinking the post scummy. I posted my thoughts and my conclusions. You seem to be twisting what I said.

If you're saying I'm scummy for some other reason, then by all means say it,

but your post clearly states that as the reason

, which is quoted just there, your words.

Bolded is the huge assumption. I maintain that a post does not have to blatantly help scum in order to appear scummy.

That statement isn't true - if you're going to say it's scummy, you need to give a reason why it would benefit scum. You havn't done that, and I can't imagine how it would have helped scum at all. Hence it does not make me more likely to be scum.

Then suggest yourself for investigation. You did not, therefore if you are scum it benefits scum. How's that? More to your liking? [/sarcasm]

But just to appease you, I'll give you a reason anyway. I'm a townie who is concerned about poor night choices costing us the game. I don't want our cop, if any, to waste his inquiry on someone WE WERE GOING TO LYNCH ANYWAY.

And why are you dictating tomorrow's lynch today?

I don't want our doc, if any, wasting their protect on a random person when there are more obvious possible targets.

^^ Senseless. Doc should protect whomever they choose.

I'll give you another reason. I'm a townie with a night choice who is trying to give people a bit of an idea about where I'm heading without tipping the scum off about my role or my choices.

^^ What? If this one is true then you most likely drew the nk, so I hope you are cop and that we have a doc. This is a scummy post, becuase revealing information such as that can only help scum and it seems that choice three is what you are claiming by default( the first two are just stupid).

Why would you drag this argument out with me if you are okay lynching Toledo? If you are town, you are now running the risk of screwing us beyond belief. I don't think a townie would do that.

FoS: Serial

Your motivations are confusing me. They do not seem at all pro town.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

1 Day to Deadline

Vote Count

Tenchi - 1 (Toledo88)

Toledo88 - 3 (Feeres, Tenchi, kikuchiyo)

Hockeyruler - 2 (Hero764, SerialClergyman)

Not Voting - 1 (Hockeyruler)

4 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Monday, May 4th (Eastern, GMT - 4).

[SerialClergyman]

Ok, I'll make this my last post on this argument, because I think we'll know more about whether your arguments or mine are more convincing when more people contribute on the comments. I'm confident that I've answered all your accusations convincingly, but if everyone disagrees I'll try to reframe my reasoning and explain it more clearly.

Why does the statement need to benefit scum in order to be scummy?

To me, this is self-evident. If the post doesn't benefit scum, it's not a scummy post. See the wiki article I linked to in 383. You're making a 'too townie' argument. If the post benefits scum it's scummy. If it benefits town, it's townie. If townie posts could be considered scummy you might as well find everyone who's written good solid scumhunting posts and FoS them all for scummy posting. It's a fallacy, if you can't see it I can only hope everyone else can.

Your post does not help town, it also suggests that town cop SHOULD NOT investigate you. I.e. the entire staement in your post supports only your pov and arguments.

Well, unsurprisingly I would prefer the cop not to investigate me, because I already know my role. I also don' think I'm near the top of the scum-list. However, if someone who is a cop wnats to investigate me, then they are more than welcome.

you are allowed your own interpretation of my post, but it is just that: your interpretation. You are connecting the dots in a particular way to fit your defense. I am okay with that, but please stop trying to put words into my mouth. I never said, "This is my reasoning" and then stated my reasoning for thinking the post scummy. I posted my thoughts and my conclusions. You seem to be twisting what I said.

You can't get away from your post that easily. If you are going to call me out as scum, stand by what you said. I'm not taking ANYTHING out of context when I quote this:

^^^ is a scummy, scummy post. By attempting to direct night actions you are revealing yourself to not be a power role which has now narrowed down scums nk choice to find a possible actual power role.

I haven't added anything, I haven't interpreted anything - they are your words. If you can't defend them, so be it, but don't claim I'm putting words in your mouth. That was your reasoning, and it was BAD reasoning. If you still feel I am taking your posts out of context, we can start again from the top. Please re-summarize your case for me in your next post. Ie - say something like 'I think Serial might be scum because of reasons x, y and z, here are the quotes from his posts.'

Then suggest yourself for investigation. You did not, therefore if you are scum it benefits scum.

This is also terrible reasoning. The same reasoning applies ot voting anyone other than yourself. 'You voted someone other than yourself, if you were scum that would benefit scum, therefore that's a scummy post'. It's a fallacy and it doesn't address my concern with you at all. I need you to show how it is scummy, show why Serialscum would post that.

And why are you dictating tomorrow's lynch today?

I was going with the most likely option. I imagined if one was scum we'd vote the other. Perhaps that was too far-reaching an assumption. However, I'm certainly not dictating anything.

^^ Senseless. Doc should protect whomever they choose.

Docs should protect whoever they think is likely to get killed by the mafia. There's no reason why I can't try to help achieve that goal if I'm not the doc.

^^ What? If this one is true then you most likely drew the nk, so I hope you are cop and that we have a doc. This is a scummy post, becuase revealing information such as that can only help scum and it seems that choice three is what you are claiming by default( the first two are just stupid).

Rofl - What information have I revealed?? I've revealed I am either a vanilla townie trying to help or a night choice trying to help - but that's exactly what everyone knew anyway! And again with this fallacy - it is NOT scummy - either I'm town revealing info to scum (in which case I'm town) or I'm scum 'revealing' that I shouldn't kill myself. It just doesn't make sense to call that scummy. It should be obvious that I have a reason to make that post if I have a night role or not. So that means the scum have no way of knowing whether I'm a good night kill or not.

Why would you drag this argument out with me if you are okay lynching Toledo? If you are town, you are now running the risk of screwing us beyond belief. I don't think a townie would do that. FoS: Serial

Your motivations are confusing me. They do not seem at all pro town.

I am addressing this argument because you continue to point your finger at me and call me scummy on the basis of a case with very poor logic. You haven't addressed any of my questions at all, or even conceded any of the issues with your case. I fail to see how I have done anything that would screw us beyond belief. My motivations are to try to convince you that your case is poor, and failing that, to try to make sure the town see that your case is poor. The reason for me to do this is for us to get over this red herring and focus on the actually scummy posts.

In addition to that, I actually have very good reasons to

prefer

a Hockey lynch to a Toledo lynch - all of which you continue to ignore. See a), b) and c) in post 381, which I would still like your comment on, and my asking for you to address that in 383 quoted here:

You also completely ignored a) and b) of my reasons to pick Hockey over Toledo. Even if you feel that c), the quicklynch issue, was a bad reason, explain to me why a Toledo lynch is better than a Hockey lynch in light of a) and b) (more info if they flip scum and Hockey's recent scummy posts). And even if you don't reply ot this point - please realise that saying I could be linked to Toledo because I 'suddenly' want to lynch someone else more when I have 3 (or at least 2 if you dont' agree with c) ) perfectly good reasons to favour Hockey over Toledo is unfair and a misrepresentation of my posts.

Kiku - you have attacked me with a very tenuous case. I think I've addressed every point you've made against me and you try to defend the case by saying things like 'you misrepresented me' and 'it's a scummy post because it's revealing information to the scum'.

Well - I've pointed out that I haven't misrepresented you - I've got quotes of exactly what you said. I've pointed out that it can't be scummy for revealing information, because I'd be revealing information to MYSELF if I were scum.

If you are really saying that ap ost can be scummy even though it doesn't benefit scum, then what can I say to you? You found the post scummy, good on you? I can't help your perceptions, but if you want to post a solid and convincing case, you need to start showing HOW it's scummy, and reasons like 'because you were TOO anti-Toledo' or 'because you're revealing information to scum' I've already dealt with and are woefully inadequate.

In addition, I

still

doubt you've read 341, I doubt you re-read my earlier posts and I feel like you're retreating into a position where you just 'feel' that it's scummy, and that doesn't help much on anything. I wonder why you still continue to persue me even from this weaker platform. Do you feel that I've grown in scummyness to Toledo's level? More or less than Hockey?

If you wish to continue this, kiku, I'd ask that you do the following things.

1) Show us why serialscum would have posted the post you find scummy. Give us a reason why it benefits him significantly. If your only reason if because it 'reveals information', like your post said, please explain how that isn't a fallacy, like I've shown already.
2) Please address my actual stated and argued reasons as to why a Hockey lynch might be more beneficial to the town than a Toledo lynch. as found in post 381. Do you agree or disagree with these points? Do you still feel that my only motivation for a Hockey lynch over a Toledo lynch is because of a scum partnership?
3) Re-read my early posts and come up with quotes that support your Serial/Toledo case.

I think if you want to continue this line of argument, the above questions are not too much to ask. If you find other people scummier and feel this is a red herring, we can leave it here too.

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry Mod, do you mean the end of the day is at 11:59pm Monday server time?

[Toledo25]

OK, I can post something now.

First off, I want to say that I still highly consider that Tenchi still could be scum. It seems that once Serial subbed in and accused me, people have lost interest in the Tenchi/Hero dilemma. I feel that there still is a chance that one of them is scum, and much more likely it's Tenchi. So I'll keep my vote where it is.

Also...

All: Since mine or Hockey's lynch at this point is pretty close to guaranteed, I have a question: if the person who is lynched turns out to be protown, what will become of the other? No need to say what will happen if me or Hockey comes up scum, I can figure that one out.

Why are you asking this? Of course you don't care about the scenario in which YOU are lynched. If you are town, why would you care about how we feel about Hockey on D3 (assuming he's alive)?

In which case...

... you only care about the scenario when Hockey is lynched. In which case, if Hockey does flip town, you are wondering what your position will be after that.

Underlined:

Actually, I would care. You may have forgotten, but all townies win with the town, even if some die (same for all alignments). And in that case, what info would my lynch reveal, and how would it affect everyone's thoughts? If I get lynched and come up as townie, it still leaves Hockey/Tenchi as a possible pair for at least one person (see post 380, where Serial discussed that Hockey's lynch will give more info). My lynch would help choose a lynch for D-3, and I want to know how things would go down with the 4 possibilities.

Kiku: I seemed to have missed the part where you explain why you think that a Serial/Toledo scumteam is possible. He says he would rather lynch Hockey since it would better give info and he was scummy. Please give a bit more insight.

Unvote, Vote Toledo

Claim please. Noone hammer.

Since I'm at L-1 (hope I counted right), I guess I'll say I'm Vanilla Townie. I'd rather not though, since in case I don't get lynched, the scum will have a better chance of hitting a role.


P.S.: Hope you get better soon Kiku

[Tenchi]

I have quit on my other two games and this is the one I am only playing (it is the only one that would take hopefully less time and only D3 and D4 remains.). However, my activity will be low for the next few days as I will be preparing for a job and will be reshuffling my priorities.

[Hero764]

I'm not sure what the hell is up with kiku with this sudden tunnelvision of serial. I think she definitely needs to be examined on D3.

Since I'm at L-1 (hope I counted right), I guess I'll say I'm Vanilla Townie. I'd rather not though, since in case I don't get lynched, the scum will have a better chance of hitting a role. We should worry about what else to do now, as we are a day from the dead line.

Did you even think before you posted this? "Oh I'd rather not tell scum that I'm vanilla townie". Newbiest thing I've seen all game, not sure if its scummy or not.

Note: If the votes haven't changed before tommorow night I will be hammering Toledo. I still think we should go for hockey, and I don't like how he'll basically be able to stay quiet the rest of D2 to avoid others from further suspecting him.

[SerialClergyman]

Well, thinking about whether it's possible we'll have a non-Toledo lynch:

I'm voting Hockey,
Hero is voting Hockey
Tenchi has a chance of switching to Hcokey but prefers Toledo,
Feeres may switch to Hockey but prefers Toledo.
Kiku is voting Toledo and will not vote Hockey.
Toledo is voting Tenchi - hasn't talked about his vote at all.
Hockey is not voting - hasn't talked about using his vote at all.

So that's what leaves us at Toledo 3, Hockey 2 with Toledo and Hockey's votes still in play. Hockey could hammer now if he wanted to and keep himself alive for another day. Toledo could switch to Hockey, which would put him at L-1 if either Tenchi or Feeres wished to change.

I think there's not too much more information or arguments that are likely to emerge over the next few hours, so maybe if we got some confirmation from Tenchi and Feeres that they are not going to change, either you or I could hammer, Hero. I think we both haven't got a problem with that, the town has gathered a lot of information, and while we may prefer one to the other I think Toledo is certainly an acceptable secondary target.

As for Kiku - I certainly found it odd. It might be worth looking back to see if there are any Kiku/Hockey links. However, at this stage I can only think that a few areas in my reasoning cause me to be suspicious to her. (Like, for example, the fact that I think Hockey is close to as suspicious as Tenchi for the D1 lynch when she doesn't, or the clearly differing opinion on what benefits town when discussing possible night choice options.)

As an outsider, did you feel that my argument with kiku was a genuine misunderstanding? Or did you feel that there was deliberate misunderstandings or manipulations on either side?

[Hero764]

I think you explained her flaws clearly in the first post you made in the argument, and after that she simply acted like she wouldn't give up and kept on making up BS reasons to suspect you. I dunno if that means she's scum and wants to throw some confusion into the game(which doesn't quite match up with her earlier behavior), or that she's town and really just is bent on catching you as scum(which is odd as well ). I don't find anything in her case plausible.

I also didn't like how she mentioned you were dragging the argument out, when in fact she was doing the exact same thing.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Sorry Mod, do you mean the end of the day is at 11:59pm Monday server time?

Read the Vote Count post again. It's in there.

[Hockeyruler]

Well, thinking about whether it's possible we'll have a non-Toledo lynch:

I'm voting Hockey,
Hero is voting Hockey
Tenchi has a chance of switching to Hcokey but prefers Toledo,
Feeres may switch to Hockey but prefers Toledo.
Kiku is voting Toledo and will not vote Hockey.
Toledo is voting Tenchi - hasn't talked about his vote at all.
Hockey is not voting - hasn't talked about using his vote at all.

So that's what leaves us at Toledo 3, Hockey 2 with Toledo and Hockey's votes still in play. Hockey could hammer now if he wanted to and keep himself alive for another day. Toledo could switch to Hockey, which would put him at L-1 if either Tenchi or Feeres wished to change.

I think there's not too much more information or arguments that are likely to emerge over the next few hours, so maybe if we got some confirmation from Tenchi and Feeres that they are not going to change, either you or I could hammer, Hero. I think we both haven't got a problem with that, the town has gathered a lot of information, and while we may prefer one to the other I think Toledo is certainly an acceptable secondary target.

As for Kiku - I certainly found it odd. It might be worth looking back to see if there are any Kiku/Hockey links. However, at this stage I can only think that a few areas in my reasoning cause me to be suspicious to her. (Like, for example, the fact that I think Hockey is close to as suspicious as Tenchi for the D1 lynch when she doesn't, or the clearly differing opinion on what benefits town when discussing possible night choice options.)

As an outsider, did you feel that my argument with kiku was a genuine misunderstanding? Or did you feel that there was deliberate misunderstandings or manipulations on either side?

I've just had time to read the most recent posts starting with Toledo's and this one stuck out.

First off I guess I can't really say anything about being connected to Kiku as I might be biased against it.

I WON'T be hammering as I actually think we can learn some more from the day, from Feeres or Kiku, I think Serial and Hero have really said all they can at this point. Besides, if I do hammer, I'm pretty sure it'l bite me in the ass tomorow so or tonight depending... no thank you...

Note: If the votes haven't changed before tommorow night I will be hammering Toledo. I still think we should go for hockey, and I don't like how he'll basically be able to stay quiet the rest of D2 to avoid others from further suspecting him.

Here I am talking! and no doubt SOMEHOW serial will be able to turn this into a scum post... but whatever. I don't really find Toledo scummy like I've said before, more just newbish. Looking at his recent post I really don't see anything wrong with it.

And looking at it, I really can't vote right now... A vote for Hero or serial will be an omgus, I've already said why I won't/can't for Toledo, Kiku or tenchi will look as if I'm protecting them or something, or will just bring up another scum pair discussion. And I don't think Feeres has said anything scummy, so there you go.

[SerialClergyman]

Hockey, I think you're right about me saying as much useful stuff asI'm going to, so I'll try to keep this really brief.

I don't know baout everyone, but I wouldn't call it an OMGUS vote if you voted Hero or myself, provided you showed, with reasons and quotes, why you think either of us have been scummy. OMGUS reasoning is simply things like 'they voted me, so I think they're scum'. If you made a post that said 'Serial has tried to manipulate the town away form voting Tenchi, you can see it here and here (quote), he ignored this important point and made a very poor case against Toledo here' or something like that, it certainly wouldn't be OMGUS. Obviously, I don't think such a legitimate case exists, but don't be discouraged from making cases against people for fear of how you'll look. If you provide good reasons and evidence via quotes you'll get a lot more sympathy for your point, I think.

No problem with not hammering - I was just pointing out you could have. Good on you for sticking with your convictions.

@ Hero - thanks for your impressions on me vs kiku. I guess I'll revisit it on day 3 to see if there's anything worthwhile to look at there.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

~16 Hours to Deadline

Vote Count

Tenchi - 1 (Toledo88)

Toledo88 - 3 (Feeres, Tenchi, kikuchiyo)

Hockeyruler - 2 (Hero764, SerialClergyman)

Not Voting - 1 (Hockeyruler)

4 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Monday, May 4th (Eastern, GMT - 4).

[kikuchiyo]

Wow, the misrepresentations are priceless.

Besides, if I do hammer, I'm pretty sure it'l bite me in the ass tomorow so or tonight depending... no thank you...

^^ Please explain this statement. We are close to deadline and you are not voting at all. If you don't think Toledo is scum, who is your main suspect and why?

I think you explained her flaws clearly in the first post you made in the argument, and after that she simply acted like she wouldn't give up and kept on making up BS reasons to suspect you. I dunno if that means she's scum and wants to throw some confusion into the game(which doesn't quite match up with her earlier behavior), or that she's town and really just is bent on catching you as scum(which is odd as well ). I don't find anything in her case plausible.

I have not made a "case" against Serial. I find it interesting that you are trying to make it seem as though I am pushing the idea of scumSerial. ScumSerial is just one of many possibilities and I don't understand why you don't see it as, at least, "plausible". Does the above statement mean that you in no way see scumSerial as a possibility? Please list the "BS reasons" you refer to.

Kiku is voting Toledo and will not vote Hockey.

I am shocked and amazed that you would try to pass the above statement off as fact. This is a blatant attempt to project an image onto me that is entirely manufactured by yourself.

I'm not sure what the hell is up with kiku with this sudden tunnelvision of serial. I think she definitely needs to be examined on D3.

Is anybody else noticing the sudden duet going on here?

Since I'm at L-1 (hope I counted right), I guess I'll say I'm Vanilla Townie. I'd rather not though, since in case I don't get lynched, the scum will have a better chance of hitting a role.

Yeah, so here's the thing. The only way I could rationally explain your "rolefishing" incident earlier was if you were cop trying to draw out a scum cop claim in order to find scum. You are not cop, therefore you were rolefishing. I laid off at first, because I thought you might actually be cop, but Serial's power grab just rubbed me the wrong way.

If the post doesn't benefit scum, it's not a scummy post.

I gave my example of why your post was scummy. Anything that confuses town, benefits scum. If you are scum, you are benefitting scum by avoiding an investigation and/or possibly steering the investigation away from your partner as well. This is largely a "theory" type argument. What is scummy or not depends on the interpreter of the post. Your motivations are confusing me.

I haven't added anything, I haven't interpreted anything - they are your words. If you can't defend them, so be it, but don't claim I'm putting words in your mouth. That was your reasoning, and it was BAD reasoning. If you still feel I am taking your posts out of context, we can start again from the top. Please re-summarize your case for me in your next post. Ie - say something like 'I think Serial might be scum because of reasons x, y and z, here are the quotes from his posts.'

I am not making a case on you. If Toledo flips scum and you and I are both here tomorrow, then you may see a case. You seem to be trying to pigeonhole me and I don't appreciate it. My suspicions are broad, but I see no proof in this thread that you are "confirmed" town and your recent train of thought has made me more suspicious of you. I found the post scummy, you trying to attribute the whole of my thoughts to what i wrote in that one single post and call it my "reasoning" and then ignore everything else I have said is extremely narrow minded. I can't find any reason a townie would be so belligerent over this. The fact that you are now making blanket statements like the one first quoted in this post and trying to pass them off as fact is beyond me.

This is also terrible reasoning. The same reasoning applies ot voting anyone other than yourself. 'You voted someone other than yourself, if you were scum that would benefit scum, therefore that's a scummy post'. It's a fallacy and it doesn't address my concern with you at all. I need you to show how it is scummy, show why Serialscum would post that.

Apples and Oranges. Why are you unwilling to submit to an investigation? Do you expect other townies to simply "believe" you? So, by your account, if you vote someone other than yourself, that equates to a 100% "pro-town" action? I think you are the one trying to push the fallacy.

I need you to show how it is scummy, show why Serialscum would post that.

Town could be barking up the wrong tree. Serialscum could post to encourage that behavior thus handi-capping town at an extremely valuable juncture in the game. What don't you understand? It seems as though you are simply appalled at the idea that someone doesn't want to kiss the ground at your feet and worship you as town.

In short:

Why do you feel that you should be beyond my suspicion?

Docs should protect whoever they think is likely to get killed by the mafia. There's no reason why I can't try to help achieve that goal if I'm not the doc.

A) It's not your job. It's the doc's, and if you want to help there are better ways of doing it. B) By attempting to direct the doc you eliminate yourself from the pool of players scum has to choose from when trying to nk the doc.

Rofl - What information have I revealed?? I've revealed I am either a vanilla townie trying to help or a night choice trying to help - but that's exactly what everyone knew anyway! And again with this fallacy - it is NOT scummy - either I'm town revealing info to scum (in which case I'm town) or I'm scum 'revealing' that I shouldn't kill myself. It just doesn't make sense to call that scummy. It should be obvious that I have a reason to make that post if I have a night role or not. So that means the scum have no way of knowing whether I'm a good night kill or not.

Again, you are discounting the fact that scum will most likely try to "appear" as town. I have pointed out possible scum motivations for your post that you choose to ignore and dismiss as fallacy. I am allowed an opinion. I am not voting Toledo BECAUSE I find your post scummy. I am voting Toledo because he rolefished. I am keeping my vote there because the only reason I had to forgive him the incident has not been realized. Now I am officially not moving my vote. Please don't try to push the post-hoc fallacy of your earlier statement:

Kiku is voting Toledo and will not vote Hockey.

^^^ This statement was not true when it was made.

If you are really saying that ap ost can be scummy even though it doesn't benefit scum, then what can I say to you? You found the post scummy, good on you? I can't help your perceptions, but if you want to post a solid and convincing case, you need to start showing HOW it's scummy, and reasons like 'because you were TOO anti-Toledo' or 'because you're revealing information to scum' I've already dealt with and are woefully inadequate.

I am not voting you. Quit being such a baby. You are not as "undeniable" townie as you seem to think.

I think if you want to continue this line of argument, the above questions are not too much to ask. If you find other people scummier and feel this is a red herring, we can leave it here too.

I don't see this discussion as helping town all that much. We do not have enough information to analyze all of the points being made. Get over the fact that I am not willing to "clear" you and realize where my vote is, what my reasoning

for that vote

is and decide what you are now going to do. If we are both here tomorrow then we can continue. If you are town, I am betting that both of us will be.

[Hero764]

Wow, the misrepresentations are priceless.

I have not made a "case" against Serial. I find it interesting that you are trying to make it seem as though I am pushing the idea of scumSerial. ScumSerial is just one of many possibilities and I don't understand why you don't see it as, at least, "plausible". Does the above statement mean that you in no way see scumSerial as a possibility? Please list the "BS reasons" you refer to.

Of course I see it as a possibility, that doesn't mean I feel the need to point out a little thing that has no merit whatsoever in his post to make it seem more likely. I would say you have at least a mini case against him at this point, you even FoS'd him!

As for the BS reasons:

1. That trying to help town power roles is scummy. I shouldn't even have to explain this one, it isn't only up to the doctor on who to protect. We work together as a town so the PR's can make a better night choice.
2. That not suggesting yourself to be investigated is scummy because it benefits scum if you are scum. Ugh, I can't even begin to explain how meaningless this is. Him not suggesting to get investigated is a null tell at best. If he's town it benefits town by not wasting an investigation, you realize this right? There was 100% absolutely nothing scummy about saying that.
3. That a post can be scummy without actually doing anything for scum. This just doesn't make sense.
4. That him dragging on the argument is distracting the town and there's no reason for town to act like that. You're the one who keeps dragging it on. He defended himself, and you just respond defending your bs reasoning.

Also, you seem to have a problem personally with serial(calling him senseless, calling him a baby, accusing him of trying to dictate votes, accusing him of acting like he's above suspicion, etc.)

Is anybody else noticing the sudden duet going on here?

I can't share an opinion with someone?

Serial has so far been the most town player in the game, to go off like this and just start trying to MAKE him scum with all these reasons is just dumb and unneeded. If he does something scummy then yes you have every right to suspect him, but his post was not scummy, not by any means. Could he be scum? Yes. Are there more probable scums? Absolutely.

[kikuchiyo]

This communication climate seems to be suffering from a "defensive" tailspin. We disagree on certain things. I am entitled to my opinion and I feel that I should be working towards the lynch I believe to be best for town. Because I included that fact that I don't like the feeling that the lynch is being "directed" and I pointed out why, I have come under attack. For whatever its worth, noone has bothered to address the circumstances or reasoning for my actual vote. In fact, the attacks are bordering on ad hom(granted I did call Serial a "baby".) Regardless, I have addressed the "bs" yet you seem to simply ignore my reasons. I am hoping it is because of the climate as I previously noted, but it certainly isn't going to help us if we don't deal with the issue. For those of us here tomorrow, try and return with a level head.

I am off to class and then dinner with my family. I will check in before deadline and change vote if need be, but I would like to see Toledo lynched for my previously stated reasons.

[Tenchi]

Wow, the misrepresentations are priceless.

Besides, if I do hammer, I'm pretty sure it'l bite me in the ass tomorow so or tonight depending... no thank you...

^^ Please explain this statement. We are close to deadline and you are not voting at all. If you don't think Toledo is scum, who is your main suspect and why?

VOTE SOMETHING OR DIE

Vote: Hockeyruler

Also, your cautiousness tells me that you fear that Toledo might flip Town.

You also have not provided any suspects in the past two weeks, aside from commenting on your own defenses or the Hero vs Tenchi case.

Just answer the damn question: Who do you think is scum???

I will be thinking some more.

Also, my two cents: I think Kikuchiyo was right in suspecting SC for the suggestions on what Power roles should do. There seems to be a contradiction on SC's stance:

1. If he believes that Power roles should eventually decide for themselves
2. Why would he suggest plans or ideas on what Power roles should do?

On a side note: A "scum SC" is in a VERY comfortable position right now. That is the biggest thing I am very paranoid about.

I will read some more.