Mini 783: Cowboy Bebop Mafia - Game Over, Space Cowboy

[Zilla]

It's implied, yes.

[charlatan]

I'm quite suspicious of ZEEnon's vote there. I don't see why he's voting Pokerface, even from the standpoint of not understanding what Pokerface was saying. The lack of elaboration is also disconcerting.

Lack of elabortation? Did you ask me to elaborate?

I was suspicious of this, too. ZEEnoon, why should any of us have to ask for elaboration?

Vi's vote on VP for asking a question which may have seemed irrelevant also piqued my interest. I didn't see the question as irrelevant, especially as we'd seen brief discussion of including a flavor role description. And now we've seen Juls say that she wouldn't provide it (because she "has reasons") in post 109, which makes the question even more interesting. If it came down to providing flavor information, I would also be interested in knowing whether or not she'd actually seen the show. Among those of us who are familiar with the show, it's probably occurred to others (as it has to me) that there's no obvious character one might expect to see attached to a miller role. Right now I'm not particularly interested in hearing that information, but down the road? It's possible. I would only be really suspicious of that question if VP hadn't offered up much other than that question, and he has.

Re: Rhinox. "Backtracking" seems to be a buzzword catching on among some of us, but I think it's a stretch. I will be distrustful of any undue weight placed on meta, especially by Rhinox or Shadowgirl (and especially when Juls hasn't posted a great deal yet), but being conflicted in one's opinions early in the game does not strike me as scummy. Nor does thinking out loud.

Ha! There we go. A cop could target a claimed miller to test sanity. As a claimed miller would, no matter what, turn up anti-town, they would be a perfect test.

Some things people are saying make more sense to me if they're thinking along those lines without explicitly saying so, but this is an oversimplification. A scum godfather would show up innocent to a sane cop, for instance, and a cop operating under these rules would assume themself insane, yes? It also discounts the aforementioned possibility of Juls as a pro-town power role trying to hide from the scum. (Though I actually didn't like Zilla pointing this out, in the event that this is the case and it hadn't occurred to scum.)

Re: Zilla's comments about Pokerface's questionnaire: It has gotten some discussion rolling, hasn't it? By asking us each specific questions, he's able to coax people into the larger conversation. I've got no problem with it, especially since it's not as if any of us has been discouraged from answering questions posed to other people or anything. Nulltell for me. I'm more concerned with his vote on Rhinox, which I found scummy.

Moving on. I'm concerned with Juls for several reasons. She's inactive here but apparently posts elsewhere, and this is trouble after dropping a miller claim in the first post. Several of us have said we'll be looking to play more than theoretical ideas about the claim to make a judgment, but not posting much content denies us that option.

I have no expectations. I just want to hunt scum and end this theory conversation. There are pros and cons to each method. I chose this one and it can't be undone (nor would I undo it).

This is sort of fair in and that she made a decision and now she can't undo it. However, she hasn't actually been doing much in the way of scumhunting at all. The closest thing I've seen to something I can really engage with is this:

I am a bit leary about VP's rhetorical question and Rhinox's backtracking is the thing that sticks out to me the most at this moment.

I've explained why I think VP's question is being given undue weight, and I don't like the Rhinox vote. Apart from the fact that I don't think the original Rhinox comment to be super noteworthy, this feels like "yeah, what Pokerface said" and then slapping a vote on.

I'm a little worried that all this hypothesizing about setup and theory might come back to bite us in the rear.

[Zilla]

Re: Me pointing out the pro-town ploy:

If that's not the case, and scum kill her, I've just re-armed the miller trap.

But by saying this, scum might be more likely to leave her alone, so if she's another power role, by saying I've armed the miller trap, I've re-armed her pro-town miller gambit

It's all WIFOM, in a very nearly literal sense of the term.

[VP Baltar]

Lack of elabortation? Did you ask me to elaborate?

Most people would elaborate when they vote, correct? You can do so now though.

Since you don't want to discuss flavors here we'll end that part of our conservation.

Weren't you the one who originally proposed the idea? Why do you let it go so easy just because she doesn't want to?

Also, PF, what do you think about ShadowGirl's reasons for believing Juls' claim?

[ShadowGirl]

game starts with a list of names. some are scum and some are town. we don't know which is which. in theory, everyone starts in the middle: neither scum/nor town. when you move a player from the middle to either end, you should be able to explain your reasoning. we don't allow votes with little reasoning, why should we allow "townie brownies" devoid of reasoning? you seem to be working from the standpoint that you believe juls. i can accept this, but you claim that your belief is based on two points. a) meta(of which you point to one game. b) her lack of experience causing you to believe she would not try this type of scum gambit. you have admitted that the meta is weak. tell me this: if you only have one game to draw this meta from, why are you so quick to now call her "inexperienced"? it just seems to me that you are trying to find any way you can to believe her claim. perhaps its because you know it to be true?

Four points, actually. Of which their weight of why I believe her is higher at the bottom.
a) Meta - Obviously I wouldn't believe her completely on such a weak meta, just scanning through the insane asylum game her behaviour seemed to be similar.
b) Lack of experience - though, I hadn't quite realized that the Insane Asylum game began in October and believed it to be more recent. After all, I replaced in on Day 2 about a two months ago, I suppose?
c) The implications of trying such a gambit with an experienced player list.
d) 'Learning her lesson' : I believe if she got the role again she would explain it early so as not to go through all that again.

I'm not seeing the logic on the last one... regardless of alignment I still wouldn't know her role. (For all I know, she could be a power role who is merely 'disguising' herself as a miller.) Secondly, how would believing her benifit me? (As scum - is what I'm assuming is the point you're making.)

in regards to your comments: all eyes are not on her, and why would any cop waste an investigation on her?

Bad wording on my part for the first half of the sentence: not that all eyes are on her at the moment, but in general. I don't think anyone is going to completely brush away the miller claim, and that I think that making such a claim would throw some suspicion on her.

^^ this is the only part of your explanation that makes sense. why are you trying to bolster your position with more than this? i.e. saying her play is "frustrated/irritable, and that she is inexperienced.

If I have other reasons, shouldn't I mention them?
Sanity check.

I have to go to school, and so I'll share my thoughts on other things when I get back.

[Rhinox]

Wow. I do like the activity ITT.

Responding as I read up, so sorry if I answer for something thats already been resolved.

@pokerface: you lose me in 106. Are you saying I should be on one side or the other Re: my opinion of Juls?

Is there a reason you post in blue? Can't say I'm a fan of your answers but I don't believe they make you obv scum either. A completely random vote like a dice roll is bad but an arbitraury vote based on the game can catch scum on day 1. The most pro-town thing to do as miller in my mind is exactly what charlaton said. Act super pro-town in order to avoid investigations and draw night kills. Getting nightkilled as miller without having to claim or get investigated is a win in my book. Claiming early as miller can have the usual con telling scum you aren't a powerole. They will focus else where to lynch and or kill town's power roles. Also Strangely enough I've actually seen games with millers and GFs and no cops at all. So I don't know if we can gain something from speculating further.

Probably isn't a good idea to speculate as SG pointed out.

Says the guy who spent the entire paragraph speculating Actually, what I don't like is that you threw your opinion out there, but you're not giving anyone a chance to respond, because you can immediately chastise them for further speculation when you said it was a bad idea.

I've seen alot of players avoid scrutinizing their buddies in order to avoid connections and him noticing SG and not rhinox's stance struck me as him avoiding Rhinox's more obvious wishywashyness.

Aside from this being wifom, wouldn't you say there are other explanations that don't end in a scum pair conclusion? For example, maybe baltar is town who only focuses on one player at a time, either purposfully, or inadvertantly (he was focused on SG and missed my comment). Or, maybe baltar is scum who knows SG and I are both town, and he thinks SG would make an easier myslynch, due to what he knows about me from our previous game together. Or maybe he's just trying to set up false connections to me to set up my mislynch in the event he gets revealed as scum at some point. (its happened to me before, when scum heavily defended me D1, then scum got nailed after a cop investigation, and I got lynched in LyLo for the loss because I was defended by scum on D1). Anyways, I ignored your potential scum pair comment before because I assumed you realized there are more explanations than that and I figured you were trying to get some kind of reaction out of me/baltar. Personally, I think trying to pair up scum partners is just silly on D1, and I don't like the idea of being lined up as the next lynch in the event that baltar flips scum at some point.

Well it basically further states your train of thought so that people can see what you are thinking, where were you going with your thought process. I've also found it fairly useful in finding entire scum groups on day one before. Example here: viewtopic.php?t=8537
I pointed out 3 out of the 4 scum on day 1. Got shot night 1 as a result.

Great, so now the mafia or an sk can kill you and it automatically condemns me and/or baltar.

General question to those who have played with rhinox before. Does he normally act cautiosly on all options in games, or do you feel this trait is unique to only his scum or town play?

I wouldn't say its in my nature to act cautiously, and I don't think I am now. However, I do like to consider all options, and I'm pretty sure I could dig up some game links to prove it if you'd like.

------------------

This is getting tiresome. Is Cop sanity really that big a potential issue in this game? I personally prefer to assume that things AREN'T screwy until they are demonstrated to be so.

Would you tell us to assume that if you were the mod?? Being a theme game, I automatically assume the setup will be something I would consider screwy (aka non-traditional). Hell, I'm in a normal right now that is probably the screwiest game I've been in yet!

-----------------

Recall that I was scum in Wolf and the Traveler's Road. Why would I wait to "try" it in this one as opposed to that one?

Hmmm... good point.

I would not be the best person to check sanity on because there is no way to confirm my role to you all until death.

I don't get this comment. You claimed miller. Miller = guilty for a sane cop. If you're not miller, you're either scum, gambitting town PR, or gambitting mafia GF. Scum = guilty for a sane cop. The only way you couldn't be used (hypothetically!) as a tool for a cop to check sanity is if you know you'd come up innocent. Otherwise, confirming your miller role has nothing to do with it.

This also brings up a better question: if a claimed miller isn't the best player to check sanity on, who would be better??:?:

We're on page 2 and Juls has only posted what, 5 times, and you already think you can match her playstyle in this game to her other game? I find this suspicious.

ORLY? Didn't you say as much with this...

Since I've been in so many games with Juls, I would say I don't think its in her nature to try this kind of a gambit as scum.

No. You're misrepping me. SG tried to specifically compare your general play IN THIS GAME to draw a conclusion on your allignment based on your play in another game - I find that scummy because I don't think its possible to draw any sort of conclusion on your allignment based on 4 posts where all you did was claim miller, so it makes me think SG knows you're town in this game and is trying to earn some points with you and/or the rest of the town.

In my case, I took into consideration every other game I've been in with you to come to a conclusion on one specific action in this game (that I don't think you would try a miller gambit as scum). Thats completely different from saying that "your general play in this game matches how you play as town", which is IMO what SG was saying.

Ah...I see Pokerface caught the same backtracking I saw from Rhinox...I guess it is my turn to ask a question. Has anyone played with pokerface before and is it his style to scum hunt by asking several "what do you think of x" type questions?

Wait a minute... I backtracked? Where?

Juls' current behavior tells me nothing about her allignment, because she hasn't really said or done anything apart from claim miller. When she starts playing more, I'll take my meta of her more into consideration.

School, finals, work. They are all done now. Jahudo can confirm that I told him I had finals yesterday and you should know it full well being I mentioned it

like 100 times

a few times in another game we are in.

Did you just skim the thread or something, because I don't understand why you're taking this as an attack towards you? I was responding to SG, who asked how my meta on you compared to your overall play in the game so far. I understand you were busy. I didn't mean "Juls hasn't really said anything, shes lurkingobvscum". Instead, I meant to drive a message home to SG: "Juls hasn't really said anything, its impossible to draw any kind of meta conclsuions based on her play so far."

Does he normally act cautiosly on all options in games, or do you feel this trait is unique to only his scum or town play?

No he doesn't typically act cautious but I haven't played with him as scum yet (that I am aware of...still in two ongoing games with him). However, I don't know if I am willing to put him off as being "cautious" straight away. It could very well just be a nervous interaction with Vi because they do have good meta on each other.

You are right about one thing - Vi would definately be the first to notice anything "different" about my play.

And here I think PF was more asking about the "on all options" part, rather than the "cautiously" part.

All that being said I think if I had to choose anyone right now as scum it would be Rhinox or VP Baltar. I am a bit leary about VP's rhetorical question and Rhinox's backtracking is the thing that sticks out to me the most at this moment.

Vote: Rhinox

Again, please clarify how I have backtracked in anything I said in this game.

All in all, Juls 109 seems more hostile/overdefensive/aggressive/abrasive/etc. than I'm used to seeing from her in any game, town or scum. I'm not sure what to make of it yet, but its definately something I'm going to be keeping my eye on.

----------------------------------

But first, when did the definition of chainsaw defense change? It was explained to me as "defending another player by attacking their attackers." I'd seen it used that way in more than two games, and I'd never seen it used in the way it's defined on the wiki...

You're using the "Tarhalindur's Standard Tells" version, which is the version I use and makes the most sense to me. I too have never really seen an example of the other version in the wiki.

Re: Rhinox post 87, "Zilla gave his answer in post 58"

Let's get my gender misconception out of the way early, hm?

ooops! sorry!

----------------------------

I suppose I can see where you may have gotten that. I clarified that at the top of post 106
viewtopic.php?p=1644784#1644784
rhinox could have disagreed as long as he didn't appear to go back on his logic.

Again, you've lost me, and I don't see where I've gone back on any logic

You said it was pro-town of her to claim like that. I think its more pro-town to act super pro-town to get yourself killed at night. This is more of a strategy issue/disagreement than something I think would make a player scum.

I think you underestimate the ease of which one can act "super pro town" and draw a nk...

----------------------

Wait, what?
Vote: PokerFace .

Yes, I agree with you PokerFace.
If she had the scum waste a night kill on her, it would have been much more effective.
Unvote .

I wasn't suspicious of the vote, but the immediate turn around and unvote raises some flags on my end...

Lack of elabortation? Did you ask me to elaborate?

wait a minute here... Unexplained votes are perfectly fine when used a scum hunting tool. However, your response here makes me think you realize your vote was scummy and are trying to get out of it on a technicallity. If you feel a vote needs elaboration, why do you need to be asked to elaborate? Why now, instead of elaborating, do you choose to respond with a pointless question?

--------------------------------

Since you don't want to discuss flavors here we'll end that part of our conservation.

Weren't you the one who originally proposed the idea? Why do you let it go so easy just because she doesn't want to?

This is a good point, and IMO very similar to what he said in 106: "Probably isn't a good idea to speculate as SG pointed out." Seems to me like pokerface is trying to fit in by just going along with what the town concensus wants.

--------------------------------

And, so now I'm pretty much caught up. I'll be waiting for some answers/responses to some of those points above, but somebody missing recently is catching more of my attention right now.

Yo! I'm here. Pokerface, you ready to take this game by storm?

The only benefit to a late miller claim is the same as the benefit to any late claim, you aren't giving scum early information. Scum have enough info that any withheld is good withheld. However, the negatives in the case of millers claiming late make doing so not, in my opinion, worth it. Though I must say, I have never played a miller.

Here it seems that Gorrad has some sort of Rapport with pokerface from previous games, but I still don't get the first sentence. In a game where we all should be suspicious of everyone else, I don't get why town-gor would try to buddy up with PF.

Also, Gor's answer to PF's question seems extremely wishy-washy, and was the driving force behind my further line of questioning.

Posts 1-4 are all theory/fluff, IMO.

Post 5: "Ain't gonna say, as Pokerface asked that question to Zilla." - avoiding the question. If he was reading the thread, he would know Zilla already answered. Why would town-Gor avoid a simple question like the one I asked?

Post 6, part 1: "If you claim miller after you've been investigated, not a single person will believe you. It's as good as signing your own death warrant." - theory answer, more on this below.

Post 6, Part 2: "By claiming early, you at least have a chance of survival should a cop investigate you." - Why was this thrown in when everybody should know that no sane cop would ever investigate a claimed miller?

Post 7: "I don't know, nor do I care to speculate. That's getting into the human factor." - answer to Post 6 part 2, and again is just dodging questions.

Post 8:

All right. However, I fail to see how it's a scumtell, though it might be not the best stance in your opinion. If you believe me that this would be my opinion in any game, it becomes a null-tell. If you don't, then considering I had nothing to do with the claim at all I fail to see how my answer would be any more likely for a scum to give.

The only way that my answer could be a scumtell is if you believe that the drive for survival, typically taken as a scumtell, is so great that it influences my answer to a question that is in no way related to me.

To me, this post is the biggest indication. Basically, all Gorrad has done so far is talk about theory. Granted, some of the discussion was provoked through directed questions, but that shouldn't stop him from scumhunting. What I don't like is when someone who only wants to talk about theory to then argue that his stance on theory is not an indication of allignment, because its as if he's knowingly acting in a way that devoids the town of any discussion that would be allignment indicating.

Add in the wishywashy answers, the dodging questions, and the (IMO) horrible logic on the theory that he has been discussing, and I am motivated to...

vote: Gorrad

Post 9: "Ha! There we go. A cop could target a claimed miller to test sanity. As a claimed miller would, no matter what, turn up anti-town, they would be a perfect test." - I honestly can't tell if this is serious or sarcastic. But still, 10 posts, all theory, nothing else. Something is fishy here... and by fishy, I mean scummy. Like carp.

[don_johnson]

So, you're voting Shadowgirl because she must be scum that knows Juls is town, and her stated reasons for trusting Juls are incorrect, right?

you could not be more wrong. juls actual alignment has little to do with the situation. i am voting shadow for her conflicting reasoning as to why she believes juls' claim.

Doesn't that presuppose that Juls is town also?

it would, but that's not what i have been saying.

Are you then saying that you believe Juls' claim implicitly because SG believes it, and you don't believe why SG believes it?

no, if you recall, i am fencesitting. i have no reason to believe or to disbelieve juls' claim.


i don't think you are paying attention. let me try this just for you:

juls claims miller, question is asked to all whether or not we believe her claim.

shadow says she believes the claim because juls playstyle is similar to the game in which she actually had the role of miller(meta).

when called on the meta argument, shadow states that its "obviously weak" as she is basing it on only the one single game in which she has read of juls.

to then bolster her, what now seems to be poor, reasoning for believing juls' claim, shadow adds that she thinks juls is "too inexperienced" to be running a scum gambit of fakeclaiming miller.

shadow has admitted to reading ONLY ONE GAME of juls. how on earth does she come to the conclusion that juls is "inexperienced"?

it is not what shadow believes, it is how she is explaining why she believes it. scumshadow could be believing the claim because juls is her scumpartner, or because she is trying to buddy up to a townie.

I think you're missing the point of Baltar's posts; that, in the event Juls is town, this is a reason she would claim early. Hence "hypothetical".

baltar did not state that his post was a hypoothetical at the time of said post. that was an explanation in hindsight. though it is reasonable, it does not erase the original post, which i found to be dangerously misleading. what if juls is a godfather role? then we use her to check our cops sanity and determine that we have an insane cop? even in a hypothetical, juls role isn't confirmed until death. vp's response is reasonable, but not irrefutable. My quandary here is that i only have one vote. at this point, shadow is far scummier as her posts don't even seem reasonable.

post 129 is somewhat nonsensical. shadow, are you now admitting that you have no real idea of how experienced juls actually is?

exactly what are "the implications of trying such a gambit with an experienced player list. "?

Secondly, how would believing her benifit me? (As scum - is what I'm assuming is the point you're making.)

if she is scum then you are bolstering her position, if she is town, then you are buddying and attempting to look pro town.

[ShadowGirl]

Mod: Can you fix my quotes on post 129?

Done. ~Jah

post 129 is somewhat nonsensical. shadow, are you now admitting that you have no real idea of how experienced juls actually is?

What about it is nonsensical? I've clearly outlined my points. As well, you seem to be missing that the meta argument is the least weighted of my points.

Anyway, I suppose I am a bit out of loop : I wasn't aware that she'd played many games from that. (I didn't know how long she left MS for.]

exactly what are "the implications of trying such a gambit with an experienced player list. "?

That, perhaps normally she would be getting a free ride from such a claim. This would not be the case here.

if she is scum then you are bolstering her position, if she is town, then you are buddying and attempting to look pro town.

From the perspective of me being scum:
If she is scum and gets lynched, then wouldn't I be automatically implicated?

If she is town, then I'm reducing my pool of people to mislynch.

[VP Baltar]

baltar did not state that his post was a hypoothetical at the time of said post.

I did pretty much say it hypothetically from the start.

The first time I mentioned it, I said:

Just thought of something else as well, it might actually be helpful to the town because if an investigative role did check Juls out and returned an innocent it would be a good indicator of that role's sanity.

I guess I can sort of see how you are reading that as not being hypothetical, but it really seems to depend on how you read the "if".

In my very next post I clarify it as hypothetical when Vi asks me what the use of that would be.

Do you think it would be worth the Cop's time (and the Town's) to confirm sanity by basically blowing an investigation?

Potentially. On a purely hypothetical level, if cop received multiple guilties in a row and wasn't sure if they were true or not it could be worthwhile to test it on someone you are somewhat sure of what the result should be. Obviously there is some risk involved depending on the sanity because one could still get a guilty result, but it might be less than the risk of a cop calling out someone they think is scum, lynching town and then being subsequently lynched themselves.

Yay for random speculating.

[Rhinox]

what if juls is a godfather role? then we use her to check our cops sanity and determine that we have an insane cop?

Although I also mentioned before that Juls could possibly be a gambiting GF, I just can't think of any reason a GF would claim miller on page 1 and have it end up more beneficial than just playing normally and being a GF. Can you?

From the perspective of me being scum:

1)

If she is scum and gets lynched, then wouldn't I be automatically implicated?

2)

If she is town, then I'm reducing my pool of people to mislynch.

1) unless you figure you can just call WIFOM to get out of it, which you're sorta doing right now.

2) Good thing scum can eliminate people in other ways then, huh

[Jahudo]

District 38 is sunny. Slight walls of text this morning. Chance of walls of text into the afternoon—20 percent. District 39 is cloudy. Chance of walls of text this afternoon—10 percent.

...all players have now confirmed...

Chance of walls of text today upgraded to 90 percent.

Vote Count #2 of Day 1

Rhinox – PokerFace, Juls
PokerFace – Zilla
VP Baltar – Vi
ShadowGirl – don_johnson
Gorrad - Rhinox

Not Voting – VP Baltar, forbiddanlight, ShadowGirl, charlatan, Gorrad, ZEEnon.


With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch!

[Vi]

I suppose I should have been careful what I wished for when I started the game with discussion. It's a lot to catch up on x.x
This is basically me reading and answering as I go.

----

WTF? He is sleeping on the couch tonight.

I got home last night and was pretty tired after taking two finals. I did not feel like posting.

Oh come now. Mafia is much more important than your entire academic career.

but you

[PokerFace]

kinda just told us that you have a main character's name...

Um... Juls, right or wrong, why did you think it was a good idea to claim this immediately?

Hey Juls, what do you think of PokerFace? of Zilla?

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But first, when did the definition of chainsaw defense change? It was explained to me as "defending another player by attacking their attackers." I'd seen it used that way in more than two games, and I'd never seen it used in the way it's defined on the wiki...

The one on the wiki is the original. On a side note, even Tarhalindur's backing down on the veracity of his Standard Tells.

People agree with me, good for them. Juls didn't know how people would react to her claim when she made it though, and that's why I'm mistrustful of it. It has the potential to guarantee a free ride to endgame with a different player set.

I sense the enthusiasm in "good for them".
Let me ask this, then. What sort of meta do you have on the people in this player set? What sort of meta do you expect Juls has?

My accusation is not that

[PokerFace]

was painting Juls as a saint but that he wanted Rhinox to only have one opinion, and that the opinion he suggested he have is that Juls is not lying.

Rereading what Rhinox said and what I think PokerFace was trying to say, I don't really think I agree with you here. Rhinox basically said "I don't think Juls would do it BUT there's a chance that she's being intentionally insidious". And rather than say that his answer is based on what he knows of Juls, he says that read is based on what he knows of

Millers

.
I'm fine with "I don't know" being a stance, but the apparent lopsidedness of claiming to have an idea of how Juls' mind works and then making an assertion based on NOT knowing how Juls' mind works is still "Off!" (a special spray people sometimes apply to themselves that draws every mosquito in the game right to them).

Was this around what you were referring to when you said something didn't feel right about Rhinox's meta read on Juls?

Both Rhinox and Gorrad make good responses to each others posts, and at the end, I think Gorrad sufficiently explains his position. I do really like Rhinox's attack here though. Something feels really genuine about this exchange, and I'd have to say it's brilliantly faked if it's scum.

How secure is this read?

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@ZEEnon - Why the vote on PokerFace?

Lack of elabortation? Did you ask me to elaborate?

You're not going to be one of THOSE players, are you... >_>

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bolded is the lose/lose question. it is not fair to ask such a thing. i am focusing no more on this subject than other players focusing on other things. yes, i suspect anyone who speaks with certainty of the knowledge of anothers role, especially on day 1 when the player in question has a total of four posts. i don't think asking to explain herself is out of line. in fact, there is a huge discrepancy in her reasoning. do you know what it is?

Mmm... no, you're focusing quite a bit more on Shadoo than anyone else is focusing on any one

person

.

tell me this: if you only have one game to draw this meta from, why are you so quick to now call her "inexperienced"?

You say "so quick"... I need to remind myself not to use that phrase if I feel tempted to; it looks bad.
Anyway, consider that at the time of the event, Juls WAS inexperienced (IIRC, when she left she had only recently accumulated 100+ posts). And it hasn't been that long since then, I think. (Second draft edit: Oh, it has.) Regardless of how Juls feels about it (and how Juls actually is!), I don't think ShadowGirl is scummy for what she said.

And I see that's the answer to your question at the bottom of the post. I got it right and wrong IYO at the same time, I suppose?

----

Vi's vote on VP for asking a question which may have seemed irrelevant also piqued my interest.

But am I scummy for it?

You're suspicious of... Juls and PokerFace, correct? Are you interested in placing a vote down, or are you still deciding?

----

Weren't you the one who originally proposed the idea? Why do you let it go so easy just because she doesn't want to?

After PokerFace answers, answer this - would you rather press on Juls' flavor?

----

Actually, what I don't like is that you threw your opinion out there, but you're not giving anyone a chance to respond, because you can immediately chastise them for further speculation when you said it was a bad idea.

Good point.

Re: scum not scrutinizing their partners - Isn't this what Zilla accused PokerFace of doing?

Would you tell us to assume that if you were the mod?? Being a theme game, I automatically assume the setup will be something I would consider screwy (aka non-traditional). Hell, I'm in a normal right now that is probably the screwiest game I've been in yet!

I wouldn't tell us to assume that if I were the mod, but I'm also not the mod Since Jahudo's earlier game was Open, the only thing I know about his idea of a fun game is that he likes chicken.
I see that it was advertised that some roles are unusual, but not

evil

. I'm open to strange roleclaims, but I'm not expecting a bastard mod.

No. You're misrepping me. SG tried to specifically compare your general play IN THIS GAME to draw a conclusion on your allignment based on your play in another game - I find that scummy because I don't think its possible to draw any sort of conclusion on your allignment based on 4 posts where all you did was claim miller, so it makes me think SG knows you're town in this game and is trying to earn some points with you and/or the rest of the town.

Oh, THAT's what this case is about? Well why didn't d_j say so?
Okay, this makes sense. I'm not sure if I buy it, but it has credibility.

You are right about one thing - Vi would definately be the first to notice anything "different" about my play.

You post walls of text regardless of alignment

Something is fishy here... and by fishy, I mean scummy. Like carp.

Gorrad is scummy as carp?

----

From the perspective of me being scum:
If she is scum and gets lynched, then wouldn't I be automatically implicated?

If she is town, then I'm reducing my pool of people to mislynch.

Rhinox basically answered this in 134.

----

Okay, I think I'm caught up.

I'll wait for Juls' next post before making a decision on her. I'm not especially suspicious of Rhinox. I'm not sure about ShadowGirl, as a lot of the argument against her is based on her ignorance of Juls (not to be confused with Juls' ignorance of Mafia). I'm not sure if I've said anything against him, but PokerFace is worrying me. And Gorrad... I want to agree with Rhinox that he's scummy, but in the last game I was in with him he was really, really, really scummy (as Town), so I'm feeling leery of pushing the wagon.

...but I'll do it anyway.

Unvote: VP Baltar
Vote: Gorrad

(L-4)

ShadowGirl and Gorrad need to talk about real people other than themselves.

[VP Baltar]

After PokerFace answers, answer this - would you rather press on Juls' flavor?

I think might be interpreting your question wrong because I don't see what the relation is between PokerFace answering and me answering that question. Regardless, I stated earlier my opinion of her claiming flavour right now:

I think at this point I'm willing to wait for a flavour claim. If it gets closer (say a week before) to deadline and we have no other suspects I would likely support it.

[Jahudo]

FYI: You can use any color, even my color (indigo). I'm sure you can tell the difference between me and you.
~Jahudo.

[Rhinox]

Oh, THAT's what this case is about? Well why didn't d_j say so?
Okay, this makes sense. I'm not sure if I buy it, but it has credibility.

I said it first

We're on page 2 and Juls has only posted what,

5

4 times, and you

[shadow]

already think you can match her playstyle in this game to her other game? I find this suspicious.

[Vi]

FYI: You can use any color, even my color (indigo). I'm sure you can tell the difference between me and you.
~Jahudo.

0.0
Holy cats, I didn't even realize I was using the mod color. Thank you for your tolerance.

@VP Baltar: I know I read that someplace... I tend to ask people things they've already answered a lot >.>

[Zilla]

Re: Was this around what you were referring to when you said something didn't feel right about Rhinox's meta read on Juls?

Maybe this is it, but I still don't think Pokerface's method of pushing his point was pro-town. It seems really weird to think someone doesn't want someone else to consider all angles, and that apparently, in his opinion, it would have been better to offer a one-sided viewpoint rather than include the minor caveat.

I suppose I can see the suspicion over him including that meaning that he wants to assert Juls is town, but he includes that caveat in case she is scum, but that doesn't seem like reasonable scum play. Scum would more likely try to frame Juls and include a caveat that she might be town so they aren't implicated as strongly for muslynching a townie.

I read his caveat as one of those Reading Rainbow "But don't take my word for it!" Dun-dun-DAH! Where it is more like "Here's what I think, but I'm not 100% sure that I'm right."

Re: How secure is this read?

It either says something about their alignment, or something about how skilled they are. It's still totally possible one or both of them are experienced scum able to fake that exchange, but they faked genuineness very well if they did, and it does make me feel more confident in their towniness.

[forbiddanlight]

OMG you all wall up your text WAY too much...dammit...I really don't want to read all this, but I know I'm going to have to...

Let me try to catch up from my last post.

[ZEEnon]

I agree with forbiddanlight, this is gonna take a while.

[forbiddanlight]

I don't like Poker's chainsaw defense of Juls.

I don't buy this. In fact, this feels more like a chainsaw of Rhinox than poker chainsawing Juls.

FoS Zilla

FL, no, you're not the only anime expert here.

I don't know about Jul's threatening to quit mafiascum, but it doesn't earn any sympathy votes from me. I'm still mistrustful of something that potentially guarantees a free ride to end game, no matter what meta lies behind it. At the same time, I can see pro-town value in that deception, in case she's not a miller but a good power role that wants to remain untouched by a mafia that is more concerned with finding power roles than a miller that the town might not trust entirely.

Well that's good.

Further, source on Juls threatening to quit? I know she quit for awhile during my game, but yeah.

Serious question: How many setups with a cop do NOT have a GF role?

Hmm...I dunno, I've been in a lot, but usually faster games.

You can't ignore the fact that she claimed.
It's already happened, and you have to relate all her actions to her claim.

May I ask why? I generally ignore a miller claim. Or rather, note it and don't let it color anything else.

@FL: I totally called that anti-miller. ;P Nobody believed me, though. :

Hai hai, well, I was rather amused myself.

If you're telling the truth and the scum believe you, they're likely to lynch elsewhere and thus more likely to hit a useful power role.

Are you serious?

FoS: charlatan

Generally power roles CLAIM when they are about to be strung up

If there's a miller, there's a cop.

It's likely, but I played a couple games where this wasn't the case.

I'm slightly concerned over the bravado behind Vi's actions. She's being quite proactive, but that's also a great spot for scum to be. I'm particularly interested in how she has been targetting certain players with certain questions. It gives the illusion of being really organized, or the appearance of having some kind of "master plan" for finding scum, which builds unwarranted town trust. Furthermore, the hyper-directed approach allows her to ask "safe" questions to scumbuddies while still appearing to grill them.

If I'm reading this correctly...you basically are saying that Vi is being too pro town. No, seriously. And trying to make it look like she is only TRYING to appear that way. I don't see it.

This is basically the entire point I was trying to communicate by my comments about Juls.

The difference being I didn't contradict myself to say this.

I can see through your smoke and mirrors Razz

So...this would appear to be suspicion on Vi. Why weren't you voting her?

And I guess I can't compete with hard-hitting questions such as:

So you won't try? This doesn't feel right.

...tells me that you would put your own survival over limiting information to the scum, which would overall help the town more than a surviving miller with vanilla powers, IMO.

It tells me he has a certain gameplay standpoint on the miller thing. So, what makes him scummy for a gameplay argument?

Her game makes 2 minis I've seen with insane Cops. Charter ran a game with one sane and one insane cop. Scum won by faking miller. Assuming the miller is real this time I doubt we'll have an insane cop.

Really? Did he have millers and GFs and stuff?

And further, whatsamatter mini mods? WHERE THE HELL ARE THE INSANE COPS! WE HAVE A META TO BREAK!

Forbidden's response to the claim feels a little off but her general view seems to stand on it being null and she'll judge Juls on her play.

What feels off?

Great, so now the mafia or an sk can kill you and it automatically condemns me and/or baltar

Nervous, Rhinox?

Ok, I think I went braindead reading all that at some point, because most of it was useless, and probably missed something, but, for now,

Vote Zilla

for that mild hypocrisy I pointed out.

[Juls]

Moving on. I'm concerned with Juls for several reasons. She's inactive here but apparently posts elsewhere, and this is trouble after dropping a miller claim in the first post. Several of us have said we'll be looking to play more than theoretical ideas about the claim to make a judgment, but not posting much content denies us that option.

So, this game should be my first priority? I had to catch up on another game that I have been neglecting due to studying and I am modding a game that takes a good deal of my time. I am caught up on all games now. I mean seriously guys, this thread opened a little over 48 hours ago and I gave a summary post responding to everyone the best I could. Those pushing this line of "she is active everywhere else" argument are pinging my scumdar because its just so weak. I am keeping up and posting as much as possible. I am webcensed at work and I cannot post until nights most of the time.

ShadowGirl 129 and some previous posts seem very cautious/apologetic. I am not sure what to think about this yet.

I don't get this comment. You claimed miller. Miller = guilty for a sane cop. If you're not miller, you're either scum, gambitting town PR, or gambitting mafia GF. Scum = guilty for a sane cop. The only way you couldn't be used (hypothetically!) as a tool for a cop to check sanity is if you know you'd come up innocent. Otherwise, confirming your miller role has nothing to do with it.

Well, I guess that's true. I wasn't thinking about it correctly.

Again, please clarify how I have backtracked in anything I said in this game.

All in all, Juls 109 seems more hostile/overdefensive/aggressive/abrasive/etc. than I'm used to seeing from her in any game, town or scum. I'm not sure what to make of it yet, but its definately something I'm going to be keeping my eye on.

If you prefer hypocritcal we can use that word. You said in one post you tended to believe me but when SG made a similar comment you jumped on her for it. And I am sorry it is coming off as defensive. I knew there would be a million questions when I claimed and I am not upset that they are being asked...it comes with the territory. However, I would say I am a bit annoyed by all these questions about my level of activity in a thread that just opened 48hours ago.

Um... Juls, right or wrong, why did you think it was a good idea to claim this immediately?

Hey Juls, what do you think of PokerFace? of Zilla?

I was thinking out loud. And now I will increase my question load 10 fold by saying that I don't have a character name at all. I have a role like "Cop", "Doctor", etc. Not a standard name mind you but it isn't a character name like "Spike", "Faye", or "Ed".

On pokerface, I am a bit suspicious. I asked if this is his normal scumhunting tactic of asking questions of other people such as "what do you think of X". If I think about this from a scum standpoint he could be using this tactic to appear to be scumhunting while letting other people dig their own holes. It could be an interesting tactic as scum.

On Zilla, she doesn't believe me. Most people say they believe me/disbelieve me but see it as a null tell. She seems to think I am scum out of the gate. I can see this as a protown stance because a bold opinion like this by scum could draw unnecessary attention to her.

After PokerFace answers, answer this - would you rather press on Juls' flavor?

I am not discussing flavor unless you guys are serious about lynching me because there is more to my role than just miller.

[Zilla]

Hey Forbidden, while we're on the subject of hypocrisy, who's to say you're not chainsawing for Poker, eh? In fact, you're voting me because I think Poker's chainsawing for Juls, and no other reason. Apparently it's scummy to think someone could be chainsawing for Juls?

That's seriously suspicious.

Not to mention a lot of your questions in there show you either misread posts or are misrepresenting them.

Your Charlatan FOS is based on him using "lynch" where he most likely meant "nightkill" because he specifically says it's about "if scum believe" her.

Your later post about my disconcerting observations on Vi misrepresents my concerns; she's doing things that LOOK pro-town, but are more showy than practically useful, i.e. appearing to lead the town by asking relatively benign questions, steering discussion to appear as a town-leader, etc. Just as I don't trust claims that can be used to guarantee a free ride to endgame, I don't trust hollow "pro-town" actions (quotes necessary here) that aren't all that practical. And, at the time, I attributed the really tame "questionnaire" to her as well, though that ended up being Pokerface's doing, another reason why I'm voting him.

You're also pushing the same angle Pokerface is pushing on Rhinox, that there's some inherent "contradiction" about not being 100% confident of your meta-read. It's a little too obvious of a buddy-tactic, I would think, but coupling that with your chainsaw-esque vote on me, I'm almost inclined to believe a FL/Poker pair.

Then there's

And I guess I can't compete with hard-hitting questions such as:

So you won't try? This doesn't feel right.

Where you completely miss the sarcasm and intent of that post, namely that he's being picked on for not asking "tough enough" questions when the very person accusing him of not asking tough questions has asked tame questions herself.

And this:

It tells me he has a certain gameplay standpoint on the miller thing. So, what makes him scummy for a gameplay argument?

Are you saying you don't see how putting self-preservation ahead of helping town win is scummy?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that the long reading fried your brain, but you get a hefty

IGMEOY

for this.

[charlatan]

If you're telling the truth and the scum believe you, they're likely to lynch elsewhere and thus more likely to hit a useful power role.

Are you serious?

FoS: charlatan

Generally power roles CLAIM when they are about to be strung up

I actually didn't mean to say "lynch" there, as I was talking about nightkills.

So, this game should be my first priority? I had to catch up on another game that I have been neglecting due to studying and I am modding a game that takes a good deal of my time. I am caught up on all games now. I mean seriously guys, this thread opened a little over 48 hours ago and I gave a summary post responding to everyone the best I could. Those pushing this line of "she is active everywhere else" argument are pinging my scumdar because its just so weak. I am keeping up and posting as much as possible. I am webcensed at work and I cannot post until nights most of the time.

No, not necessarily. And you're right, it's moving quickly. I'm happy that we've gotten to see more of your thoughts now, which also in part addresses the rest of my post about your play.

[Rhinox]

Are you serious?

FoS: charlatan

Generally power roles CLAIM when they are about to be strung up

C'mon now, its obvious Char just mistyped. He was talking about scum NKing elsewhere since they know Juls is not a PR. This seems like a pretty weak point to latch onto, or at least shows a lack of reading. Did you just skim?

Ninja edit: OK, so others saw this as well (again, I'm responding as I read along)

So...this would appear to be suspicion on Vi. Why weren't you voting her?

Obvious joke was obvious... again, were you just skimming looking for things to comment on?

It tells me he has a certain gameplay standpoint on the miller thing. So, what makes him scummy for a gameplay argument?

Go back and read the post where I voted Gor for your answer.

Nervous, Rhinox?

Nope, being obviously sarcastic to prove a point.

All in all, FL, this post seems very forced and unnatural. You'll try to play it off as "our faults for typing so many walls of texts", but to me, it seems more like you're forcing non-genuine suspicions out there to appear pro-town. Non-genuine, because scum can't genuinely be suspicious of anyone.

-----------------------------

If you prefer hypocritcal we can use that word. You said in one post you tended to believe me but when SG made a similar comment you jumped on her for it.

Did you see where I explained the difference between what SG said and what I said? Did it make sense? There was I clear difference between what I said and what SG said.

[forbiddanlight]

Hey Forbidden, while we're on the subject of hypocrisy, who's to say you're not chainsawing for Poker, eh? In fact, you're voting me because I think Poker's chainsawing for Juls, and no other reason. Apparently it's scummy to think someone could be chainsawing for Juls?

It is when they aren't actually doing it.

Your Charlatan FOS is based on him using "lynch" where he most likely meant "nightkill" because he specifically says it's about "if scum believe" her.

Then charlatan can clear that up. May I please ask why you are giving other people outs?

Are you saying you don't see how putting self-preservation ahead of helping town win is scummy?

Every townie is a body that helps town win. I see self preservation as a valid tatic over rolling over and being lynched. I also see the merit in acting super pro town to get NK'd, but it's not the side of the miller argument I stand on

I actually didn't mean to say "lynch" there, as I was talking about nightkills.

See what you did Zilla? Thanks.

UnFos charlatan

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that the long reading fried your brain, but you get a hefty IGMEOY for this.

Not even an FoS, or an HoS? You don't seem so convicted.

You're also pushing the same angle Pokerface is pushing on Rhinox, that there's some inherent "contradiction" about not being 100% confident of your meta-read. It's a little too obvious of a buddy-tactic, I would think, but coupling that with your chainsaw-esque vote on me, I'm almost inclined to believe a FL/Poker pair.

Also note earlier I didn't see much coming out of that contradiction. That was actually more advice for Rhinox. If I remember the read correctly, it wasn't just not being confident in the meta read, it was directly saying one thing and contradicting it the next sentence.

Again, the chainsaw accusation is about as much BS as your scumhunting has been

As for Vi, I think the best way to resolve this is if you could show examples of what Vi has been doing to "appear" pro town. All you've done is just said she's trying to "appear" pro town without any backup.

C'mon now, its obvious Char just mistyped. He was talking about scum NKing elsewhere since they know Juls is not a PR. This seems like a pretty weak point to latch onto, or at least shows a lack of reading. Did you just skim?

I did not find it obvious, and also found it a good thing to point out even if it were a mistype. To see what charlatan would say. But Zilla, apparently, ruined that. Good job thar.

Obvious joke was obvious... again, were you just skimming looking for things to comment on?

By page 6, yes. And again, obvious doesn't cut it when I have to cut through about 5 million quotes of crap and pointlessness.

Go back and read the post where I voted Gor for your answer.

Self preservation, right? Or was that Zilla?

All in all, FL, this post seems very forced and unnatural. You'll try to play it off as "our faults for typing so many walls of texts", but to me, it seems more like you're forcing non-genuine suspicions out there to appear pro-town. Non-genuine, because scum can't genuinely be suspicious of anyone.

Overall, you need to back this up with evidence. What you've quoted so far is just me apparently missing some obvious mistypes and sarcasm.