Mini 737 - Hack Poetry Mafia (Game Over)

[sekinj]

So here is one for you, hypothetically, what would have persuaded you that my vote is not emotional?

Maybe I would put more stock in your arguments if you hadn't asked for my modkill simply for criticizing you.


And here is one for you, hypothetically, what would have persuaded you that I am not scum?

[sekinj]

either you think I'm scum, or you think I'm emotional town.

I thnk you are emotional scum.

[Goatrevolt]

Are you serious? I answered that question every time you asked it. In fact, 4 times to be exact. Are you deliberately ignoring my answer? Maybe it wasn't the answer you wanted so you just assumed your question remained unanswered? What is it?

Yes, I'm serious.

Here are the 4 times I answer it:
<snip>
So you're accusing me of dodging a simple question, when in reality I answered it every single time you asked it.

No, you did not. I asked - repeatedly - why you assumed that sekinj was directly informed of a roleblock

as opposed to assuming it based on a lack of information

, and all of your answers amounted to "

Spring said she was roleblocked, therefore I assumed she was roleblocked

". This does not address the question which I was asking.

Question: Why did you assume sekinj was informed.
Answer: Because when she said "I was blocked" the implication is: I was targeted by a roleblock. I didn't think someone would claim to be roleblocked unless they were sure (aka informed) that they were blocked.

Why is that not an answer? That directly answers the question. You can't just wave your arm around and say it doesn't answer the question and then use it to toss baseless suspicion on me.

Spolium, give me a sample answer to the question. I want to see what a "real" answer looks like. What answer were you looking for?

I missed your request for that information - trying to establish my stance here is particularly frustrating as I can't fathom how you keep missing the point.

I missed the point entirely. I don't know why you didn't just point it out. It was clear I didn't understand what you were going for, so why not just say "This is my point"?

You've been pushing for my lynch since D3. At the start of D4, when sekinj reported being blocked and Spring speculated that she could therefore be a roleblocker, the

first thing you did

was make a speculation based on the assumption that I am scum: "

That adds another possible reason for the lack of kill night 1. Spolium tried to make the kill and was blocked

". This is one sign of an attempt to drum up further suspicion against me.

You're really misrepresenting me here. I never implied that this meant you were scum. All I said was "Here is another possible explanation." I have not used this a single time whatsoever as means to push a case.

I go into the thread. I see sekinj is blocked. I see spring targeted her. I connect the dots. I think about who else spring targeted, you. I think about the missing N1 kill. I point out the possibility. You overreact, and assume I'm using it as some insidious means to drum up suspicion on you.

Further, as Spring has pointed out, you posited only one out of any number of possible scenarios (one example would be, what if sekinj lied about the roleblock and Spring's choice to target her was coincidental?); why pick out this single one? Your stated suspicion of me suggests that you were inclined to point it out because it supported your case against me, not because it is the most likely scenario.

I mentioned sekinj lying and dismissed it as unlikely.

Further, as I have pointed out, you did not explain why scum-Spolium would assume this was the result of a roleblock. You have argued at length that if sekinj received explicit confirmation of a roleblock then so would scum-Spolium attempting a NK, yet you fail to acknowledge the possibility that explict confirmation of roleblocking did NOT occur. Why? It seems fair to suspect that you are more interested in pushing suspicion on me than considering all the possibilities.

How can I acknowledge a possibility I didn't think of? There is a jar of coins. All the visible coins are pennies. I reach in and pull out a penny. You come up and ask why I didn't grab the quarter. I say "I didn't realize there was a quarter in the jar. I thought it was all pennies." You say, "But why didn't you consider the possibility of a quarter?" Me, "because when I see a jar of pennies, I just instantly assume all the coins in the jar are pennies." Etc.

You're asking me why I didn't think of a possibility. My answer is: "I don't know, I just didn't consider it." Explain how that makes me scum again? I jumped to conclusions that "I was blocked" means "I was explicitly informed I was blocked" and I'm suddenly scum because I didn't even consider an alternative possibility?

Furthermore, your entire push here is based on the premise that I'm twisting facts and ignoring possibilities for the purpose of making you look as scummy as possible. Considering I haven't once pushed this as a reason anyone should consider you as scum, your case is pretty manufactured and weak.

One example could be that Jebus was also a paranoid doc, and his N2 targeting of you would've resulted in roleblock confirmation if you were a scum power role. That's just one possibility though - as I've said already my basis for this observation is the fact that you jumped to a conclusion about the nature of RB confirmation, and I can only speculate about how you would gain this information as scum.

Nice dismissal. Unsupported speculation on Jebus, or the easy-to-fall-back on "you're scum and thus you'd just know somehow". You also ignored my point about how if I actually had inside information I would have had correct information. You're accusing me of having inside information when I was wrong.

Ridiculous.

I construe it as suspicious because the question is fundamentally flawed. I have pointed out this flaw, yet you have not addressed it directly. Scum ask questions to present an illusion of scumhunting, so this stands out to me. Perhaps I should explain once more?

You ask me whether I received roleblock confirmation when I was a claimed VT. Why would a VT receive confirmation of a roleblock? Why assume that

anyone

would receive explicit confirmation of a roleblock in this game? The foundation of your roleblock confirmation question is not sound, yet you expect to get meangingful information from it.

Here are the possible scenarios/answers to your question,

Spolium: Were you informed at all about being roleblocked night 1 or 2?

:

1. townSpolium answers "no"
2. townSpolium answers "yes"
3. scumSpolium answers "no"
4. scumSpolium answers "yes"

2 and 4 are unthinkable, because a VT would not typically receive any confirmation of a roleblock due to a lack of role - I can think of no reason to assume this, and you have provided no explanation for assuming so. The remaining options are therefore 1 and 3, which tell us nothing because even if sekinj DID receive explicit confirmation of her role there is no reason to think that a VT would receive such confirmation (or that a goon would admit to doing so). I see literally no use for your question.

First of all, this is extremely nitpicky, overstated, and ignores the context. You pull out one question I asked, try to prove how it couldn't generate anything useful, and then try to imply that it makes me scum for asking a question without a large capability for useful information. I didn't realize every townie's post had to be jam-packed with only the most expertly crafted questions designed to get every drop of useful info.

Your push here is based on the idea that I'm giving the "illusion of scumhunting" and your proof is one question that isn't likely to generate useful info. Again, why did you ignore the rest of my post. Why did you ignore the rest of my posts today? Ignoring the context.

With that being said. There is possibility for useful information. I've seen vanilla townies informed of a roleblock. As scum, you might decide to answer that you were roleblocked out of fear that you get nailed for not claiming to be roleblocked when sekinj did claim it, etc.

Although, we are so far detracted from the source here and dwelling on irrelevancy. I asked the question simply because I saw sekinj claim to be blocked, and that if spring is the blocker you would have been blocked as well. So I just thought, "hey spolium, did you get informed of a block?" That's it. I didn't stop and think about the 19 different possible replies that could be generated and whether any of them could produce useful information. I didn't spend 30 minutes thinking about that question and whether anything beneficial would come from it. I just thought it, and asked it. You're stretching really hard here to drum this into something scummy.

Because my D3 vote for RC was based on what I perceived to be a slip, and I was very wrong. I also have no desire for my vote to be misinterpreted as OMGUS. Lynx's result on you strongly suggests you are town, and I am currently weighing this against the possibilities that he was naive, or that you are a godfather. Oh, and because I think sekinj currently deserves a vote more than you do.

In short, I'll vote you when I'm sure enough that you're scum. Have some patience, eh?

It's not an issue of patience. It's just that I see you roundabout push suspicion on me all day that finally culminates in one long post and the epic conclusion is a...FOS. You also have no stance taken on anyone else throughout the entire day. You don't commit to me. You haven't committed to anyone else (until last post).

@Goat:

you've expressed suspicion of sekinj for a while now, and she has in fact been your second choice for a lynch consistently since the beginning of D3. However, I cannot find a single point where you ask her questions, push her for information or otherwise do anything other than state that you find her scummy (except for when Spring directly asked). Can you explain?

I thought I gave reasons for why I thought she was scummy on day 3. I'll have to go back and check.

But no, I haven't really pushed her very hard. I pressured her some on her RB stance today, but Don covered it all in the meantime. I don't really have an explanation for why I haven't pressured her. She hasn't been my top suspect, so it's not been a burning need, and there hasn't been anything directly I've found scummy enough to jump on and pressure her over (excepting the RB thing).

Have you "pressured" her at all prior to your vote here?

----

@Goat, why is voting for nolynch a towntell?

It's not a towntell. It's a possible cop-tell. The valid townie reason to suggest a no lynch is for information gaining purposes. Cop is the only role which can guarantee information enough to justify it. If she had claimed vanilla townie, then this would be a reason to lynch her. As cop, though, it at least fits.

----

@goat/Spolium: When I read sekinj saying "I was blocked", I assumed she meant "I got no result", because I believe it is the convention to be told you got no result rather than being told you were specifically roleblocked. However, were I to receive no result, I would assume I was blocked. Thus, I don't fault sekinj for saying she was blocked, although the way I would have worded it would have been something akin to "I got no result, so I assume I was blocked", rather than the certainty and vagueness the phrase "I was blocked" implies.

I'm not really sure about the convention here. On one site I play, a lot of mods inform everyone that they were roleblocked, regardless of whether or not they are making an action or are vanilla or not. I've been roleblocked once on this site. It was by a jailkeeper, and I was directly informed that I was blocked. I kind of assumed "you were roleblocked, your action failed" was the standard for dealing with failed action via RB.

@Rhinox - I agree there is a possibility that sekinj is lying about being blocked and that Spring targeting her was coincidental, though there is the other possibility that she is a scum power role and was actually blocked. The possibility that Spring is a paranoid doc is therefore still valid.

I doubt she's lying about being blocked. It's a risky play to make when the scum roleblocker is dead. You'd have to go in trying to convince people that there is a second scum roleblocker alive who blocked you, and has mysteriously not been a factor in the game until night 3.

Far more likely is that she was legitimately blocked by spring.

--

I think we should be lynching one of Spring/Spolium

I also think that Rhinox's claim is a little bit too unbelievable and worry about him coming up with a magic guilty in lylo

About spring:

Spring is a second mafia roleblocker. After no one counterclaimed budja and she had been run up, she counterclaimed her own scumpartner under the false assumption that there just wasn't a doctor at all, in order to survive the day herself and hopefully get falsecleared for the remainder of the game.

What explains the no kill N1 if this is the case?

Sekinj, can you answer that question as well.

Regarding Rhinox, I think he's town simply because I don't see the motivation as scum to confirm me as innocent. Plus, his play end of yesterday->today strike me as townie behaviorally anyway.

[springlullaby]

So here is one for you, hypothetically, what would have persuaded you that my vote is not emotional?

Maybe I would put more stock in your arguments if you hadn't asked for my modkill simply for criticizing you.

Your description is misrepresentative.

1. The inter-player part of the situation, regardless of your alignment:
Your "criticisms" were both malicious and pointless: there wasn't anything constructive in them. I asked you to stop, you didn't. It also intervened after you had been mod warned once. Whether you like it, I think it was modkillable offence. You don't like my play, fine, replace out and avoid me in the future. That is the correct way of dealing with it as I do not have to put up with your crap, and this regardless of the quality of my play.

2. Why your behaviour in this game is scummy:
Your "criticisms" were unfounded. Period. When I confronted you with the facts, you evaded every time by dismissing it.

And here is one for you, hypothetically, what would have persuaded you that I am not scum?

I can respond to this clearly.

My assessment of you is as follow: you are 100% scum on the scum scale and fifty/fifty on the town scale.

You are 100% scum on the scum scale for a number of arguments that I have delineated in my previous posts.

You are 50/50 on the town scale because there is always a possibility that you really are 100% OMGUS, bad faith and hypocritical town.

But the following reasons make me think you are not town:

- I have made several arguments as to why I think you are scum and to which you did not respond. Were you town, and genuinely thought that I was in the wrong, I think you would have argued with me to death to defend yourself and to prove me wrong. But instead you dismissed them each time. I will add to that that if you genuinely found me that annoying as town, I think you wouldn't resist the occasion to tell me off by proving how my arguments sucks. Therefore I take that your evasion of the argument levelled at you is an admission to not having any argument to counter.
--> To this follow that if you can't find fault with my arguments, I would expect town you to recognize their validity, and not display bad faith by constantly dismissing them.

The bottom line in this is, no argument of mine, or of anyone's, is infallible, but the way you have dealt with the argument levelled at you says scum to me.

My only fear here is that you are deliberately being lame out of un-sportmanship but there is little I could do about that.

What do you say?

[springlullaby]

either you think I'm scum, or you think I'm emotional town.

I thnk you are emotional scum.

[sekinj]

About spring:

Spring is a second mafia roleblocker. After no one counterclaimed budja and she had been run up, she counterclaimed her own scumpartner under the false assumption that there just wasn't a doctor at all, in order to survive the day herself and hopefully get falsecleared for the remainder of the game.

What explains the no kill N1 if this is the case?

Sekinj, can you answer that question as well.

that is a good point. Maybe this:
If some other townie was killed, many would question why the mafia did not target the claimed doc. By submitting a no kill, it opens up the possibilites. She could easily "speculate" that she was successful in her protect, or that something else unknown happened with the night kill.

[sekinj]

What do you say?

I dismiss your arguments because I don't see the point in addressing them. You say my opinion is stupid, I say no it's not. What cold hard facts do you want? I do not have the bloody knife you used to stab Lynx.

1. You didn't lurk all through D1 in other game I was in with you. That is why I always limited my critiscm to "this game". and whether you like it or not, I obviously committed no a modkillable offense.

2. You lurked. That is a fact. That is what I critized. Others agreed. You took it to include scumhunting, which is a misconception on your part. I'm going to gag if I have to say this one more time.

So, I am scum because I am tired of having a catfight with you and repeating the same thing to you over and over? and you say if I was town I would have already agreed to the validity of your arguments... but wouldn't that mean you want me to agree to their conclusion as well, that I am scum? So if I were town, I would agree with you that I was scum? somehow I don't think self-voting would put me on anyone else's town list...

[sekinj]

Poll: Does anyone else think spring's points against me are valid and need to be addressed? If so, please quote the statement of spring's you would like me to address and I will do so immediately.

[Goatrevolt]

Sekinj: Why did you push for mass claim day 2 before you had any results? What was your motivation?

[sekinj]

Sekinj: Why did you push for mass claim day 2 before you had any results? What was your motivation?

well, for one, i didn't "push" for it, but I did suggest it. My motivation was actually my frustration at spring. I wanted to show her that she wasn't the only power role around and so didn't have a license to lurk since the rest of us weren't. However, once I realized that 1) I wouldn't have any results to claim, and 2) would become a mafia target after claiming and therefore might die wihtout ever bringing results, I posted my disagreement with it. if you hadn't noticed I usually type before I think (which is why i stack up so many posts in a row)

[Goatrevolt]

Sekinj: Why did you push for mass claim day 2 before you had any results? What was your motivation?

well, for one, i didn't "push" for it, but I did suggest it. My motivation was actually my frustration at spring. I wanted to show her that she wasn't the only power role around and so didn't have a license to lurk since the rest of us weren't. However, once I realized that 1) I wouldn't have any results to claim, and 2) would become a mafia target after claiming and therefore might die wihtout ever bringing results, I posted my disagreement with it. if you hadn't noticed I usually type before I think (which is why i stack up so many posts in a row)

Why were you so focused on getting spring to contribute and less focused on finding scum? Isn't the job of a townie to find scum, not push along other townies?

What do you think "proving to spring" would have done? What benefit would there have been?

[sekinj]

Why were you so focused on getting spring to contribute and less focused on finding scum? Isn't the job of a townie to find scum, not push along other townies?

Trying to get spring to contribute wasn't my initial goal. It was the first thing I commented on, and then with spring's response, I let myself get drawn into a huge catfight with her, which, shouldn't have, but did distract me from finding scum.
Truthfully, it was also kind of hard for me to scumhunt when I knew I could just inquire after someone at night and that be the end of it. I certainly didn't want to build a huge case, then get an innocent night result and have to undo all that work the next day.

What do you think "proving to spring" would have done? What benefit would there have been?

It would make her stop lurking and start giving more opinions on other people's cases and actions.

[TonyMontana]

[face_palm]
I missed it

(and apparently, so did everyone else)

#1211 was a hammer

Final Vote Count

L-0

sekjin

(4) Rhinox, don_johnson, spring, spolium
L-3

spolium

(1) goatrevolt
L-3

springlullaby

(1) sekjin

Not Voting: (1) Ice9

With 7 people alive, it took

4 votes to lynch

It is now twilight. Nothing other than a bah post allowed from sekinj, while I conjure up a death scene

[/b]

[TonyMontana]

Town is on edge, the air filled with tension
For once they omit to ask for extension
With one cop down, they turned to the second
The angry mob wanted answers from sekinj

"What news you bring" "I bring none, I was blocked"
"How do you know?" "Well, I don't" "What a shock"
"You really think I would kill my own partner?"
She held up a badge, "hold still, go no farther"

"Looks fake to me", "Where you get that, at wal-mart"?
"I've seen better looking badges on mall cops"
"Well I've seen enough, now let's hang this scum"
Then she took her own life, with a police issued gun.

---

sekinj |

Cop

| Lynched Day 4

---

It is now night 4. Choices in by Sunday.

[TonyMontana]

It's now day five, town's talking the jive
Not all is alive, cause the tally is five
He got snake eyes, at a roll of dice
A watcher dies, body cold as Ice

Ice9 |

Watcher

| Killed Night 4

It is now Day 5

With 5 people alive, it takes 3 to lynch

Deadline is Sunday, May 10th

[springlullaby]

I targeted Goat.

Don, result? Rhinox, same.

[Goatrevolt]

I was not informed of a block.

I'll wait on role information then best figure out how to go from there.

[don_johnson]

target: ice9

only rhinox targeted ice9

i would vote, but i am thinking this is lylo.

goat/rhinox?

[Rhinox]

Don is lying. I'm not a cop. I was gambitting. The extent of my deputy power was only getting Lynx's results. Therefore, I didn't target anybody last night.

confirm vote:don

FYI: the reason I unvoted yesterday was because the mod PMed me to ask if I was aware I wasn't actually a cop, or if I misread my PM. I revoted when I decided I could gambit and possibly catch scum. I was hoping to be nked with a watch result, or blocked with a watch result. Nice play don... you re-convinced me you were town after I was certain you were scum. Now you have to die. I probably wouldn't have even considered you for lynch today if it weren't for your last post.

[don_johnson]

you are not a cop. you are scum. you targeted ice9. ice9 is dead.

only question is: who is your partner?

when sekinj flipped cop it occurred to me that you were most likely lying. watching you would reveal no significant results. i was pretty sure spring was going to target either spolium or goat due to the fact that if you actually were a cop then her targeting you would impede an investigation. likewise, her targeting me or ice could prevent us from seeing the nk. ice9 was the most "confirmed" townie when sekinj flipped. you've been painting me as scum from way back. goat was most likely attempting to block me.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: scratch that. i doubt we have a second scum roleblocker. i was most likely left around for mislynch.

spring: thoughts?

i would like to hear from spolium.

the idea of scumspring is and has been extremely convoluted. i have to believe either goat or spolium is scum.

[springlullaby]

I think it would be better for my ego if Don was scum as it would mean I nailed 2 scum D1.

Rhinox: how do you justify don being scum in term of traceable night actions?

Don: where does the whole second scum roleblocker business come from?

[Rhinox]

"Rhinox: how do you justify don being scum in term of traceable night actions?"

First things first. As I know there was no way I submitted any action last night, its clear to me don is lying scum. The only traceable night actions are that RC maybe tracked don somewhere don said he targetted, and ice watched don target ?you?. That would make don is a mafia watcher, I'm guessing. Thats the only way he would be able to get right who targetted who. This is my word against his. He claims I'm the only one to target ice, and I know thats a lie.

you've been painting me as scum from way back.

It appears there was good reason for that. The best argument I can make is to ask everyone to go look back at my original case for voting don, just before we lynched RC. I think I was dead on, and it was clear don was clearly scrambling to get any explanation to stick. The only thing against me all game is right now don's claim that I targetted ice, which is hardly verifiable.

[Goatrevolt]

Our lynch today needs to be either Don or Rhinox.

i would vote, but i am thinking this is lylo.

If Rhinox was the only one who targeted Ice9, then why wouldn't you vote? Wouldn't he be guaranteed scum in that case?

Don is lying. I'm not a cop. I was gambitting

Explain the gambit to me. You were pulling a gambit in hopes of drawing scum fire?

Don has verifiable results as a watcher, from both Ice and RC. So, if he's scum, then he's a mafia watcher.

Rhinox doesn't have anything to verify his claim of deputy, and now has claimed that he doesn't actually have the ability to make investigations, which seems kind of sketch to me. That would be a good way as scum to justify not bringing in any new results for the rest of the game. However, I also have to take into consideration that he cleared me by nature of claiming Lynx's innocent on me. I guess as scum, he would have had to fake a result for Lynx's last night.

Rhinox, did you get any information from Sekinj? As a deputy, would you not get info from both cops?

[Rhinox]

"Explain the gambit to me. You were pulling a gambit in hopes of drawing scum fire?"

It was actually an inadvertant gambit, because in most cases, when a deputy is activated after the death of a cop, the deputy actually becomes a cop. Therefore, I assumed incorrectly that I was a cop, when the extent of my deputy ability was that I only received Lynx's results.

I thought about coming clean yesterday before the sekinj lynch, but I really thought sekinj was scum due to the not guilty vs. innocent contradiction. I also though that don and/or ice might watch me last night and see either a nk attempt or a RB attempt on me. Since I'm still basically only a townie, yes I was hoping to draw scum fire away from the other real power roles, so even if nobody watched me, me being nked or blocked would have been best case scenario for the town. I was also worried that going back on what I said right before a lynch was about to happen would be distracting and cause people to rethink lynching sekinj, who I really thought was scum.

You're right that don is definately a watcher, I just didn't really expect that he was going to end up being a mafia watcher and try to frame me. It all makes perfect sense now though.

Also, I should point out that I have tried gambits before as town successfully. The only really obvious one was in Mafia 87. You'll have to read it to get the whole effect, but it basically won the game for the town. I can't give you any examples of my scum play evidence of whether I would fake a gambit because I was only ever mafia in newbie 645, my very first game on the site.

The only thing is in this game, I didn't sneak in my gambit code signal (a '*' typo). Usually, I throw one of those in when I'm up to something, everyone thinks its a typo, and then later I can go back and explain why I put the * there. The goal is eventually I will be able to signal to certain players that know the signal that I'm up to something when I trust them. The reason I didn't throw it in in this game is because the gambit was improvised last minute, and Ice (OGML) would have recognized the signal and I didn't 100% trust him.

"Rhinox doesn't have anything to verify his claim of deputy, and now has claimed that he doesn't actually have the ability to make investigations, which seems kind of sketch to me. That would be a good way as scum to justify not bringing in any new results for the rest of the game. However, I also have to take into consideration that he cleared me by nature of claiming Lynx's innocent on me. I guess as scum, he would have had to fake a result for Lynx's last night."

Theres 2 points I was hoping someone would realize without me having to point them out and make them WIFOM.

1) Does it make any sense for me if I'm scum to fake claim cop and then instead of making up fake results today, say nevermind, I'm really not a cop?

2) If Don was really a town watcher and me scum, why would the scumteam have me submit the nk when I was set up to give fake cop results? It would be suspicious giving results on a player who is dead, especially with the chance the a watcher might see me be the only one to target the player.

I also want to point out that claiming lynx's innocent on you should have no bearing on anything. If I'm scum and you're town, then its not hard to fake an innocent result on someone I know to be town. We also don't know Lynx's sanity, and you could still be a GF.

"Rhinox, did you get any information from Sekinj? As a deputy, would you not get info from both cops? "

I will PM tony to check, but no, I did not receive any information from sekinj's results. Could mean I was only linked to lynx, or could mean I only got results from the first cop to die, or that I only got results from the sane cop, or ???