Mini 754 - Frogs Mafia Game, Set and Match.

[Raging Rabbit]

The fact that she knew the townie flavor in advance. We've been over this.

but couldn't scum have been provided with this? it isn't uncommon for mods to include fake claims/flavor for scum, especially in theme games. this case seems to be clearing based on a conditional action which was based off of flavor again. as i said before, i'm not gonna be clearing anyone because of that

Yes, once again I'm fully aware that this doesn't clear her. However, since everyone else can be scum regardless or whether or not scum were told about the duck flavor in advance, and Izzy can only be scum if they were, that makes her less likely to be scum. I really don't see what's so hard to understand here.

[curiouskarmadog]

The fact that she knew the townie flavor in advance. We've been over this.

but couldn't scum have been provided with this? it isn't uncommon for mods to include fake claims/flavor for scum, especially in theme games. this case seems to be clearing based on a conditional action which was based off of flavor again. as i said before, i'm not gonna be clearing anyone because of that

going to make it a point to meta the mod's game...and see if he has ever done it before....this case on SHEizzyCHICKizzyHERizzyFEMALEizzyVAGINAizzyOVARIES seems like a stretch....

[curiouskarmadog]

What else can I say to that other than we are not scum?

well saying things like that and "i'm town" aren't helping, that's for sure.

why is it hurting?

[Thestatusquo]

Well, not going to speak for dahill, but I just gave a very detailed argument as to why scum players would be psychologically much more likely to say such things.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Well, not going to speak for dahill, but I just gave a very detailed argument as to why scum players would be psychologically much more likely to say such things.

What exactly would you expect town-aligned players to say? "I'm scum"?

[Thestatusquo]

I would expect them to make detailed arguments responding to arguments against them. In addition, I would expect them to not even THINK about it, unless under pressure.

Generally what I expect town players to do is scumhunt. To me, whether or not people perceive of me as town is something so far from my conciousness when I am town, because I am much more concerned with other peoples alignment than I am with my own.

[Raging Rabbit]

Not completely done catching up yet, but I've skimmed enough to be comfortabe with a

vote: scotmany

for now.

[Thestatusquo]

Why? From your perspective, of assuming izzy is town, scotmany seems like the most likely to be town, due to his complete, utter, and unparalleled defense of izzy.

What makes you want to vote him?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I am scum hunting though, Shea. I think I've found Gorrad.

More to add against Gorrad:

I too am LA due to the fact I work tonight, tomorrow, Friday, and Saturday...along with two art projects that desperately need working on because its due on Monday. I may need replacing...I dunno how much I can catch up with...I will try.

9 pages is not that much...you seem to be active everywhere else..why?

If she truly is active elsewhere, then this lurking is very disturbing to me.

FoS: crywolf20084

I'm KINDA active elsewhere. This takes thought unlike the other places i've been posting.

And out of the nine pages I've read like three...maybe.

Didn't notice this until ML brought it up.

Vote: CryWolf

. Thinking is protown.

So... Cayke says she's behind because this thread requires thought and Gorrad votes for her because thinking is PRO-Town?

I concur. Frankly, that you would assume that your partner is mafia is quite suspicious to me. I'd peg you for mafia mason if anything.

I believe the claim of 'duck'.

And do NOT claim who your partner is. What you've already said is probably too much.

Oh, and @ML: Because the partner won't claim if they're scum...

OH! CW to claim their partner. Wow, didn't think of that.

CW: Partner claim, please

.

Oh, and @ML: Because the partner won't claim if they're scum...

OH! CW to claim their partner. Wow, didn't think of that.

CW: Partner claim, please

.

This doesn't explain why you were willing to lynch Cay without forcing either her or her partner to claim.

If Cry's town, then the scum won't claim. If Cry's scum, the other's either scum, and won't claim, or town, and should claim without pressure. I didn't think to ask Cry to claim her partner. When my active game is done, I'll give an explanation of why.

Explain how you managed to make this drastic change of heart, please. Then explain why you lied about not having thought about it before.

A search of the site for the word 'neighbor' reveals the following games with and without an anti-town in a neighbor group:

With:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... r&&start=0

Without:

Exceptions:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... r&&start=0
-This game had a town neighbor who could pick one person a night to talk to.

No games on the site with neighbor groups, to my knowledge, have been omitted. Keep in mind that for those games that did not have their roles all on the front page, they can be found in the endgame section. Ongoing games have been omitted.

And this is why I didn't link any.

So, you are basing all of this off of one game? Do you not see how ridiculous that is? There is no trend to go on by looking at one game. You are making an assumption that makes no sense.

This is a very good point. Gorrad's reply references "Ongoing games". Surely there can't be that many ongoing games with the "neighbour" role involved. Thus, how can you draw enough of a conclusion from what surely must be an insufficient data source, even accounting for your ongoign games? Furthermore, since this was posted 15 days ago, have any of these games finished?

I find it quite disturbing that Gorrad has been perpetuating this line of thinking, when there's no rational basis for his line of thought.

And what are you, then?

You want me to claim? My flavor's species is frog, though whether I'm a regular frog or some subspecies I won't say. The vanillas are all frogs, as you can see in the first post. This is because it's Frogs Mafia.

This seems off to me. I find it slightly off-putting that he responded to such a pointless request for a claim at all, let alone in sucha non-commital way. It seems to be part bread-crumbing a power role, part generic town aligned claim, part rubbish since last nights NK has proven that not all vanillas, if any, are frogs. It feels to be the same "I am town" claim Shea is holding against me, except scummier due to the vague nature of the "claim".

Also, this is every post Gorrad made concerning Cay before her claim:

No I wasn't random voting to look protown, i was random voting for the sake of random voting.

You weren't being asked if you were voting to look protown, you were asked if it was one of your norms. Guilty conscience?

Unvote, Vote: Crywolf

.

Yeah. I didn't see the part ML quoted. I scanned that post pretty thoroughly, too.

Unvote

.

I agree, Karne. I think random votes are fine if consistent with meta. I wasn't jumping on about random votes, I was jumping on because I thought I saw CW answer a question not asked regarding allignment, which is generally bad.

I too am LA due to the fact I work tonight, tomorrow, Friday, and Saturday...along with two art projects that desperately need working on because its due on Monday. I may need replacing...I dunno how much I can catch up with...I will try.

9 pages is not that much...you seem to be active everywhere else..why?

If she truly is active elsewhere, then this lurking is very disturbing to me.

FoS: crywolf20084

I'm KINDA active elsewhere. This takes thought unlike the other places i've been posting.

And out of the nine pages I've read like three...maybe.

Didn't notice this until ML brought it up.

Vote: CryWolf

. Thinking is protown.

I'unno, ML. Coincidence?

And yeah, I knew that vote would get me some suspicion. What were my alternatives? Not vote? I can understand reading and not posting, I do it all the time, but posting and not reading? That's, as they say, nucking futs. I'd rather post rarely and say precisely what I think than know nothing about the subject on which I'm posting. Those who've played with me should remember that- when replacing into a game I always, without fail, do a readthrough (with the exception being extremely long games, in which case I'll usually read the last day or two). CW's not even reading- I honestly can't comprehend why town would do that.

Scotmany, you and I have played in the same game several times now. Look back on some of those games. Can you honestly say I'm out of my pattern for early-game? At this point, I won't even use it as a town-tell for me. Just a null-tell. I "active-lurk", as y'all say, usually for the first day at the latest.

I don't know, I don't see any sort of compelling or coherent case that screams to me that Goaard as sure enough about Cay being scum prior to the claim that he'd say this later on:

Cry's mason buddy would have a higher odds of being scum, yes, but the possibility of two scum neighbors from different teams is a possibility too.

Why would I?

Because you had not claimed. However, you have now, so that point's moot. Also, are you also a duck?

DI, you're at L-2. I'd hurry up if I was you.

We are not lynching izzy because of your stupid theory.

You're not. I am. And it's hardly based only on the fact that she's a neighbor. I was hard-pressed to give benefit of the doubt even when the claim was still mason.

His case on Cay reads very much like he was picking on an easy target, which he's managed, somewhat fortuitously, to get a claim from that he's currently worked into one town lynch and is attempting to get another town lynch from. I'm verty much of the opinion that we have Gorrad scum.

[Raging Rabbit]

I missed the part where he really took a stand to defend Izzy, if there was one. I'm getting strong spectacur-y scum vibes from him. And that

vote scotmany

.

Don't you think that Izzy being a replacement makes it more plausible for her to say something like that?

[MacavityLock]

I missed the part where he really took a stand to defend Izzy, if there was one. I'm getting strong spectacur-y scum vibes from him. And that

vote scotmany

.

Explain case against scot more in depth than "scum vibes" please.

[Raging Rabbit]

Since I'm not yet fully caught up, I can't. This may very well be a temp vote - just thought it'd be nice to follow my gut for the time being, and put some pressure on Scot.

[dahill1]

What else can I say to that other than we are not scum?

well saying things like that and "i'm town" aren't helping, that's for sure.

why is it hurting?

well i never said they were hurting but it is certainly anti-town if someone goes around the whole game saying "i'm town i'm town". not saying izzy is following that exact example, but scumhunting and defending is better than pointing out why you're confirmed based on flavor

[scotmany12]

Since I'm not yet fully caught up, I can't. This may very well be a temp vote - just thought it'd be nice to follow my gut for the time being, and put some pressure on Scot.

One vote that means nothing is not going to put pressure on me.

Gorrad is still scum (there's you one liner). Going to do stuff with this game tomorrow when I wake up.

[mikeburnfire]

Okay, I've gone through the thread and have lots of notes. It's mainly just summaries of all the posts, so I won't clutter the thread.

Why I think Izzy is scum:
Crywolf instantly tried to get Archon, her neighbor, lynched
Izzy is a duck, and ducks are more likely to be scum than frogs
Izzy is a "neighbor", which are more likely than masons to have at least one scum, and the other neighbor is dead
Izzy acted like she knew ducks were safeclaims

Mainly, there is a lot of evidence against Izzy from my perspective, and little reason not to believe she is scum. TSQ said it all very well, and I pretty much agree with everything he has said. However, half of the evidence is Meta, and the other half is sketchy. I know it's not the best case against somebody, and I have other suspicions I want to follow up on. I need to do a bit more review.

[scotmany12]

Izzy is a duck, and ducks are more likely to be scum than frogs

You know this how?

[mikeburnfire]

Ducks eat frogs. Duh.

[MacavityLock]

Cay's roleclaim of a duck does not bother me even though it is not a frog.

I agree with this statement. I'm going to give Crywolf a pass for now and place my vote elsewhere.

I believe she is town. If she were scum, it would take guts to claim a non-frog in a game that has not given us any reason to believe there are non-frog pro-town roles.

I'm not clearing Cry solely for her flavor. I'm giving her a temporary pass because of how risky such a fake claim would have been.

Izzy is a duck, and ducks are more likely to be scum than frogs

Contradictions ahoy!

[scotmany12]

Really, as scum, cay would have no incentive to get her neighbor lynched. She would be giving up influence that she could have over a member of the town.

MBF's next two reasons are based on the duck claim, and believe it is more likely to be scum despite there being a dead town duck, and her being a neighbor. Her being a neighbor does not make her scum. Gorrad has made that assumption off of one game (your ongoing games don't count as evidence, since you can't reference them, and for all I know you can be making them up). Hell, if he is even in one other game with a neighbor, it still doesn't mean anything.

Izzy acted like she knew ducks were safeclaims

Where did she say this? She acted like a dead town duck made her confirmed to be town, which is disagree with, and those attacking her for this point have a valid reason. However she did not say that ducks were safeclaims.

So far, MBF has been following Shea and Gorrad around, and have provided little of his own opinion in this game.

As for Izzy, her acting like she is confirmed is scummy, and I think the duck claim is actually a point against her now. However, I don't think this is enough to lynch her on. As she said, she had different reasons than cay to lynch Archon. And as I said earlier, Cay would have little motivation to lynch Archon if she was scum. Scum are not going to try to lynch someone that they can influence. Voting for her because she is a neighbor is still dumbfounded.

[curiouskarmadog]

Okay, I've gone through the thread and have lots of notes. It's mainly just summaries of all the posts, so I won't clutter the thread.

Why I think Izzy is scum:
Crywolf instantly tried to get Archon, her neighbor, lynched
Izzy is a duck, and ducks are more likely to be scum than frogs
Izzy is a "neighbor", which are more likely than masons to have at least one scum, and the other neighbor is dead
Izzy acted like she knew ducks were safeclaims

Mainly, there is a lot of evidence against Izzy from my perspective, and little reason not to believe she is scum. TSQ said it all very well, and I pretty much agree with everything he has said. However, half of the evidence is Meta, and the other half is sketchy. I know it's not the best case against somebody, and I have other suspicions I want to follow up on. I need to do a bit more review.

sweet christ

confirm vote MBF

how do you know that duck are more likely scum..the only duck revealed was town.

please show where you got this "neighbor" theory from..former game..link?

if ducks were a safe claim, then WHY are they more liking scum?

this case is bullshit and is a stretch.

I think you need to "clutter" now..that is no excuse to post a bad case.

[curiouskarmadog]

So far, MBF has been following Shea and Gorrad around, and have provided little of his own opinion in this game.

QFT

[Gorrad]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

[mikeburnfire]

Contradictions ahoy!

You know what the best part about giving somebody a temporary pass is? It's only temporary, and can be reversed as new information arises.

Really, as scum, cay would have no incentive to get her neighbor lynched. She would be giving up influence that she could have over a member of the town.

No offense, but she didn't really seem to be playing the best. She was close to lynch and panicking.

MBF's next two reasons are based on the duck claim, and believe it is more likely to be scum despite there being a dead town duck, and her being a neighbor. Her being a neighbor does not make her scum.

Like I said, the evidence is meta-based and sketchy, but it's still there.

However she did not say that ducks were safeclaims.

My mistake. Cheerfully withdrawn.

I think you need to "clutter" now..that is no excuse to post a bad case.

Oh, poor, naive CKD. I said I had other suspicions I wanted to follow up on. Just give me some more time.

[scotmany12]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

So, they were both serial killers. One was not mafia, and one was not town. They both had the same role, and this was done in a game that has a shit load of uncommon roles (paranoid gun owner, lover, commutuer, compulsive vig, etc.). This is also only the second game. Two games does not make a pattern, two games is not enough to justify something off of.

[MacavityLock]

Contradictions ahoy!

You know what the best part about giving somebody a temporary pass is? It's only temporary, and can be reversed as new information arises.

So what happened to change your mind on the flavor, other than a dead townie duck?