Double-Headed & Speedy Deep South Massive public review

[shaft.ed]

Should I allow the vig and sk to pre-submitt their kills ( "as soon as the next block begins, I will kill ____" ) as an alternative solution?

Yes please. For all roles actually.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, I ran into that with SSW and wished (even though I was a Vanilla Townie) that power roles had been able to presubmit choices. It unfairly penalizes people who can't live on the forum 24/7, though as you say the hydrafication (hydration?) may reduce that significantly. I'd forgotten that factor.

On the other hand, that may totally muck with your 'experiment' here (not in the JDodge sense of the word), so feel free to disregard this idea.

I'd rate it moderate intensity and moderately-low probability.

[forbiddanlight]

The great part is that me and Pesco are close to opposite sides of the world. Essentially, we will have about 22-24 hours coverage...ish. It's pretty cool.

[Green Crayons]

I like that mechanic, and the pressure it adds to that player.

Meh. It has the potential for needlessly forcing an additional pressure on the SK that might be fingered as a tell. I just don't see the point in adding additional mod pressure on a specific role (especially one as hopeless as the SK) - I'm just a major fan of an incredibly distanced mod (ah hah, that's what has been bothering me).

on a scale of 1 to 10

I would probably say about a 5.5. The fact that the moderator encounter could produce a result that would never in a million years come about in normal play (suicide) is a pretty big issue... if it actually happens, which is a hard thing to judge even in hypothetical speculation-land. It just looks like a senseless mod kill (a last resort) when there are other avenues to take. So, moderate to mid-high intensity (depending on when it occurred, who has the role and the number of players left remaining) and moderate to low probability (because of all the previously listed factors) is my opinion.


I would support a pre-submission mechanic. The more specific (to a point; and, speaking only in temporal terms, not "after Player X posts three times!") a pre-sub could be would be better.


Edit:

Actually, I think a pre-submission mechanic would quell most of my criticism as long as the player could nullify or change that submission prior to when it is supposed to take effect. While I still think the potential for suicide in the random mechanic is unnecessary and extreme, allowing a changable pre-sub would at least give the player a chance to circumvent that potential altogether if for some reason it should become out of their control at a later point in time (and when the deadline is fast approaching): they could send in a random choice at the beginning of the block to occur at the end, and if at any point in time they find that they want to kill someone else now/their original target but now, they could send in another PM to nullify the pre-sub and commit the action at that point in time.

Edit 2:

For the record, I'm only discussing abstract game theory. I'm not on some sort of crusade for you to change your setup - I just thought this point of conversation Max brought up was interesting.

[Adel]

I am getting exactly what I hoped for from this thread. I think that allowing pre-submissions for the next action phase is a good idea for all roles. I'm going to sit on it for a while before I edit the role PMs, but it will be something to the effect of "you may submit your action for the next (84 -hour block / 150-post block) at any time, but you will not be allowed to change your target once your move is submitted" for most roles and something like "you may submit your action for the next (84 -hour block / 150-post block) at any time, but you will not be allowed to change your target once your move is submitted. However, if your target is dead at that time you will need to submit an new target target due to your compulsion to kill" for the Vig and Sk roles.

I don't want to deal with players changing their mind every 3 hours. That is a recipe for mod error.

Thanks guys!

[Yosarian2]

I think the threat of Scum and a trigger happy Vig or SK getting another kill in every 150 posts will discourage such. I expect the 84-hour bock game to be far more active than the 150-post block game.

Hmm. This could actualyl be a problem.

In the one game I saw where town could be penalized for lots of posts, the "short and sweet" mafia game, it basically made the whole game die for a while. People only posted if REALLY had a LOT of things to say in one post, so there were seveal page of massive inpenetrable walls of text, then people pretty much just stopped posting all together. The lack of posting was actually worse for the town then posting would have been, but that dosn't matter; no one wanted to post unless they felt they could justify the post as more helpful then harmfull to the town, and so basically no one posted. People only started posting again when we got close to the deadline.

[Adel]

.. and there will not be a deadline in either game. How much do you think the (hydra + player list + activity in the other game + desire to get in multiple lynches in before the scum kill) will compensate for that de-motivating quality of post-based action phases?

Should I change it from 150 to a smaller number like 100, or should it be a decreasing quantity of posts like 175-25

n

where

n

is the number of the action block (yielding: 150, 125, 100, 75, 50, 25) with 25 as the min number?

[shaft.ed]

I think the threat of Scum and a trigger happy Vig or SK getting another kill in every 150 posts will discourage such. I expect the 84-hour bock game to be far more active than the 150-post block game.

Hmm. This could actualyl be a problem.

In the one game I saw where town could be penalized for lots of posts, the "short and sweet" mafia game, it basically made the whole game die for a while. People only posted if REALLY had a LOT of things to say in one post, so there were seveal page of massive inpenetrable walls of text, then people pretty much just stopped posting all together. The lack of posting was actually worse for the town then posting would have been, but that dosn't matter; no one wanted to post unless they felt they could justify the post as more helpful then harmfull to the town, and so basically no one posted. People only started posting again when we got close to the deadline.

Yes but town night powers recycle as well. I'd suspect that sould balance out as long as the town hasn't had it's power roles demolished.

[Yosarian2]

.. and there will not be a deadline in either game. How much do you think the (hydra + player list + activity in the other game + desire to get in multiple lynches in before the scum kill) will compensate for that de-motivating quality of post-based action phases?

I really am not sure. If the town decides it's best to lynch as often as possible per "day" (IE: To get as many lynches per scum kill as they can) (and yes, shaft.ed is right, the town might not since then they get less actions, and less discussion in thread per lynch), then I'm not really sure that other factors will overcome that. I mean, the two biggest motivations in any game of mafia are "help your side win" and "don't do things that make you look suspicious"; and if posting a lot is viewed as anti-town, then almost no one will post a lot (and anyone who does will probably be lynched for it).

The hydra thing might not make a difference, since if "conserving posts" is decided to be the best stratagy (and, again, that'll probably be up for debate in the game), but if it is, the two members of the hydra may just talk outside of thread, figure out everything they want to say, then make one big mega-post in thread that contains all of it; which would just slow the game down more, possibly much more.

(shrug) I really don't know what'll happen; it's an experemental setup, and it may be worth running just to see how it goes. I do think there is a significant risk of the whole B game just stalling out, though.

Should I change it from 150 to a smaller number like 100, or should it be a decreasing quantity of posts like 175-25

n

where

n

is the number of the action block (yielding: 150, 125, 100, 75, 50, 25) with 25 as the min number?

Hmm. How would that help? If anything, that would encourage people to post even less, wouldn't it?

[whoami8]

Should I change it from 150 to a smaller number like 100, or should it be a decreasing quantity of posts like 175-25

n

where

n

is the number of the action block (yielding: 150, 125, 100, 75, 50, 25) with 25 as the min number?

Hmm. How would that help? If anything, that would encourage people to post even less, wouldn't it?

Though it's tangential, this brings up a good point that you may run into issues as you approach end game. With 3 players alive you will take forever to hit 150 post. That's a lot of space to fill.

[Adel]

The hydra thing might not make a difference, since if "conserving posts" is decided to be the best stratagy (and, again, that'll probably be up for debate in the game), but if it is, the two members of the hydra may just talk outside of thread, figure out everything they want to say, then make one big mega-post in thread that contains all of it; which would just slow the game down more, possibly much more.

it would need to 1 post every 72 hours to avoid a prod (3 prods ever in 1 game = replacement in both games)... and prods have to be requested, by name, which requires a post... and it will be hard to lurk in both games at the same time... so a min of 14 posts every 3 days = ~ 5 posts a day, so the realistic min length of first action phase should be about 30 days given a 150 post-count length... and the results of kills takes up a post, and vote counts (1 every 24 hours like clockwork?) takes up a post.. I think the decreasing number is a good idea. There will e a steady march toward the next phase.

150 -> 110 -> 85 -> 60 -> 45 -> 30 -> 25 -> 15 -> 15 -> 15 -> ...

[whoami8]

15's a bit crazy, it should be proportional. If you start with 150 thats ~11 per game player. I'd use that multiplier so the shortest phase would be ~33 posts.

[whoami8]

Also if you make it too short scum can just come log in when one of the two other players aren't on, log 15 posts and win.

[PokerFace]

IT'S A PESCADO!

yes I will definatly refer to pesco light as this or simply "The Fish" in the game. Name and pairings fit what fl is 'comfortable' with 2 women as the fish.

[Thestatusquo]

To be honest, the biggest issue I have with the game is that I think it will negatively effect other peoples performance in other games.

The post requirements are so stringent, that I think they make people take time off of games they were previously in, to play this game to avoid replacement.

The hydra thing is helpful, but not that much.

I think you might want to have some sort of limit on the number of games people who join this game can be in before hand or join while in it.

Just a thought.

[shaft.ed]

TSQ has a good point.

FTR, I will likely be only in this game, at the most I'll be in endgame in a Mini.

[elvis_knits]

The hydra thing might not make a difference, since if "conserving posts" is decided to be the best stratagy (and, again, that'll probably be up for debate in the game), but if it is, the two members of the hydra may just talk outside of thread, figure out everything they want to say, then make one big mega-post in thread that contains all of it; which would just slow the game down more, possibly much more.

it would need to 1 post every 72 hours to avoid a prod (3 prods ever in 1 game = replacement in both games)... and prods have to be requested, by name, which requires a post... and it will be hard to lurk in both games at the same time... so a min of 14 posts every 3 days = ~ 5 posts a day, so the realistic min length of first action phase should be about 30 days given a 150 post-count length... and the results of kills takes up a post, and vote counts (1 every 24 hours like clockwork?) takes up a post.. I think the decreasing number is a good idea. There will e a steady march toward the next phase.

150 -> 110 -> 85 -> 60 -> 45 -> 30 -> 25 -> 15 -> 15 -> 15 -> ...

shaft.ed, you're going to have to explain this to me.

[Kmd4390]

To be honest, the biggest issue I have with the game is that I think it will negatively effect other peoples performance in other games.

Most people can judge for themselves how many games they can handle. If there is a team of two people who can't handle one more game, that's one thing. But I don't expect it to be a problem.

[WaltWishbone]

Err....me and RR are in as a team, if that's cool Adel?

To be honest, the biggest issue I have with the game is that I think it will negatively effect other peoples performance in other games.

The post requirements are so stringent, that I think they make people take time off of games they were previously in, to play this game to avoid replacement.

The hydra thing is helpful, but not that much.

I think you might want to have some sort of limit on the number of games people who join this game can be in before hand or join while in it.

Just a thought.

TSQ.. woot, are you playing? I have been hoping to play with ya at some point!

Adel - I think your game/set-up is great..... lets start!

[shaft.ed]

The hydra thing might not make a difference, since if "conserving posts" is decided to be the best stratagy (and, again, that'll probably be up for debate in the game), but if it is, the two members of the hydra may just talk outside of thread, figure out everything they want to say, then make one big mega-post in thread that contains all of it; which would just slow the game down more, possibly much more.

it would need to 1 post every 72 hours to avoid a prod (3 prods ever in 1 game = replacement in both games)... and prods have to be requested, by name, which requires a post... and it will be hard to lurk in both games at the same time... so a min of 14 posts every 3 days = ~ 5 posts a day, so the realistic min length of first action phase should be about 30 days given a 150 post-count length... and the results of kills takes up a post, and vote counts (1 every 24 hours like clockwork?) takes up a post.. I think the decreasing number is a good idea. There will e a steady march toward the next phase.

150 -> 110 -> 85 -> 60 -> 45 -> 30 -> 25 -> 15 -> 15 -> 15 -> ...

shaft.ed, you're going to have to explain this to me.

Basically the "Day Phase" will require fewer and fewer posts as the number of players decreases. Thus keeping the posts per player to achieve the next phase near constant.

I think a better method is simply to calculate the Post Deadline from a solely post per player equation with X number of posts/post added in to allow for mod posting.

[elvis_knits]

Instead of conserving posts, I think we should post often and hope to end the day before the scum send in a choice. I mean, sometimes it takes a lot to coordinate and if day is over fast, they might not send a choice.

[xofelf]

IT'S A PESCADO!

yes I will definatly refer to pesco light as this or simply "The Fish" in the game. Name and pairings fit what fl is 'comfortable' with 2 women as the fish.

i dunno i looked at Pesco Light and thought of some weird form of kool-aid... is it Fish flavored then? O.o

[Yosarian2]

The hydra thing might not make a difference, since if "conserving posts" is decided to be the best stratagy (and, again, that'll probably be up for debate in the game), but if it is, the two members of the hydra may just talk outside of thread, figure out everything they want to say, then make one big mega-post in thread that contains all of it; which would just slow the game down more, possibly much more.

it would need to 1 post every 72 hours to avoid a prod (3 prods ever in 1 game = replacement in both games)... and prods have to be requested, by name, which requires a post... and it will be hard to lurk in both games at the same time... so a min of 14 posts every 3 days = ~ 5 posts a day, so the realistic min length of first action phase should be about 30 days given a 150 post-count length... and the results of kills takes up a post, and vote counts (1 every 24 hours like clockwork?) takes up a post.. I think the decreasing number is a good idea. There will e a steady march toward the next phase.

150 -> 110 -> 85 -> 60 -> 45 -> 30 -> 25 -> 15 -> 15 -> 15 -> ...

Hmmm....but if the town is intentionally conserving posts, would they prod each other?

Eh, you might be right, especally with vote counts and such. Hard to say.

If you really wanted to be safe, you could put a deliberate asymmetry in the mafia's scum kill (something like "you may make a kill every 150 posts, or once every 3 weeks, whichever comes first", and only have that extra time-based clause in the mafia's kill, not on any other role) to give the town a reason to keep the game moving at a reasonable pace; but I realize that might not be what you're going for here.

[Adel]

I think a better method is simply to calculate the Post Deadline from a solely post per player equation with X number of posts/post added in to allow for mod posting.

I'm thinking about this. I was just throwing numbers out to test the range. I would prefer for everything to be set in stone before the game begin, and while an equation based upon the number of extant players is a possible solution, I am just not sure yet. Mixing a time based clause with the post based seems to be a compromise that dilutes the premise... something I prefer to avoid.

Definitely looking for more input.

~~~

@TSQ, I share your concern. Hopefully all of the players will seriously consider the probable time requirement, and recognize that it is probably more responsible to err on the side of caution and let other players with more free time join in their place.

~~~

@ WWB+RR, sure thing, just make a hydra and post here.

Did I miss any other hydra yet?

[WaltWishbone]

I think a better method is simply to calculate the Post Deadline from a solely post per player equation with X number of posts/post added in to allow for mod posting.

I'm thinking about this. I was just throwing numbers out to test the range. I would prefer for everything to be set in stone before the game begin, and while an equation based upon the number of extant players is a possible solution, I am just not sure yet. Mixing a time based clause with the post based seems to be a compromise that dilutes the premise... something I prefer to avoid.

Definitely looking for more input.

~~~

@TSQ, I share your concern. Hopefully all of the players will seriously consider the probable time requirement, and recognize that it is probably more responsible to err on the side of caution and let other players with more free time join in their place.

~~~

@ WWB+RR, sure thing, just make a hydra and post here.

Did I miss any other hydra yet?

awesome, thanks Adel will do:)