Open Setup Certification Group

[shaft.ed]

I tried running 1:4 mountainous for marathon day. It lasted three minutes.

I'm not sure if that's a minus or a plus.

both

[farside22]

Propose we cerify 2:2:9

What games are 2:2:9??

[shaft.ed]

Propose we cerify 2:2:9

What games are 2:2:9??

Think this is just the vanilla version. We haven't done the power roles yet. This takes the place of any 2:2:8 set up in the name department.

[Korts]

I will put some work in tomorrow and say something about Masons and Monks and Twofold. I will also collect some setups to discuss from the old open setup discussion thread.

Meanwhile,

vote to kill Quack Multiball; vote to kill 1:4

EDIT: Also, mith, could you update the OP? I've already done the formatting and everything, just add these to the list of certified setups:

Vanilla Nightless

• * 6-8 players: 2 scum (2:4 to 2:6)
  * 9-11 players: 3 scum (3:6 to 3:8)
  * 12-16 players: 4 scum (4:8 to 4:12)

Bird 7P

• * 2 Mafia Goons
  * 3 Townies
  * 1 Cop
  * Doctor
  Day Start

2:2:9

• * 2 Mafia A Goons
  * 2 Mafia B Goons
  * 9 Vanilla Townies
  Day Start

Also, Trendy and Subversive C9 V1, V2 and V3 haven't been decided on either way; kill or certify? (Both V1 and V3 have three votes for certification from shaft.ed and Gurgi.)

Trendy and Subversive C9 Variants

V1

1 of Cop/Nurse
1 of Doc/Deputy


V2

Cop/Deputy
Doc/Nurse


V3

1 of Cop/Doc
1 of Nurse/Deputy

I

vote to kill V2; vote to certify V1 and V3

, which makes 3/6 votes for certification.

EDIT2: Lovers Mafia also has a wiki article, please update OP to reflect that.

[MafiaSSK]

Vanilla Nightless
Feel free to make changes.

[Korts]

bump

[Tenchi]

I posted a setup here and I wish to have feedback. Farside pointed that I should talk to you guys.

Here it is anyway:

Doublecrossed

2 Doctors
5 Vanilla Townies
2 Mafia Scum
1 Vampire (becomes Mafia Scum)


Mod Notes:

Vampire: Plays for Town. If NKed, stays and becomes Mafia Scum, cannot be protected
Doctor: Cannot protect self.
Mafia Scum, together submits two choices, one choice to kill and one choice to roleblock.

[farside22]

bump for sanity

[Adel]

I keep on looking through this thread, and I have some ideas that are still baking for now.

[shaft.ed]

Sorry I'm slacking on this

[Korts]

Trendy and Subversive variants should be decided on.

[Adel]

kill V.2 and keep the others. I suspect that there may b an argument for killing V.3 (too swingy) but I don't buy it.

[Korts]

Approved Setups

(as of 09-April-11)

C9
One of four variations, randomly chosen:

• * 1 Cop, 1 Doc, 2 Mafia, 3 Townies;
  * 1 Cop, 2 Mafia, 4 Townies
  * 1 Doc, 2 Mafia, 4 Townies
  * 2 Mafia, 5 Townies

F11
It consists of four variations, chosen at random

• * 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Townies.
  * 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies.
  * 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies.
  * 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, 6 Townies.

Pie E7

• * 1 Mafia Goon
  * 1 Mafia Roleblocker (for balance reasons, the Roleblocker should also be able to nightkill even if the Goon is dead)
  * 1 Sane Cop
  * 1 Doctor
  * 3 Townies

Vengeful 5P

• * 1 Godfather
  * 1 Mafia Goon
  * 3 Vengeful townies
  Nightless

Lovers Mafia

• * 2 Mafia Lovers
  * 4 Townies
  Nightless

Near-Vanilla

• * 3 Mafia
  * 1 Doctor
  * 1 Jailkeeper
  * 8 Townies

Vanilla Nightless

• * 6-8 players: 2 scum (2:4 to 2:6)
  * 9-11 players: 3 scum (3:6 to 3:8)
  * 12-16 players: 4 scum (4:8 to 4:12)

Bird 7P

• * 2 Mafia Goons
  * 3 Townies
  * 1 Cop
  * Doctor
  Day Start

2:2:9

• * 2 Mafia A Goons
  * 2 Mafia B Goons
  * 9 Vanilla Townies
  Day Start

Vanilla Nightless

• * 6-8 players: 2 scum (2:4 to 2:6)
  * 9-11 players: 3 scum (3:6 to 3:8)
  * 12-16 players: 4 scum (4:8 to 4:12)

Bird 7P

• * 2 Mafia Goons
  * 3 Townies
  * 1 Cop
  * Doctor
  Day Start

2:2:9

• * 2 Mafia A Goons
  * 2 Mafia B Goons
  * 9 Vanilla Townies
  Day Start

Trendy and Subversive C9 V1

• * 1 Mafia Goon
  * 1 Mafia Roleblocker
  * 1 Cop or Nurse
  * 1 Doctor or Deputy Cop
  * 3 Townies

Trendy and Subversive C9 V3

• * 1 Mafia Goon
  * 1 Mafia Roleblocker
  * 1 Cop or Doctor
  * 1 Deputy Cop or Nurse
  * 3 Townies

[mith]

Updated OP, sorry about the delay.

[Adel]

still baking.

one half-baked idea: if three members agree on something for now on, it counts as a consensus. that way things can keep on moving.

[Max]

I disagree with that rule, I suggest that you have additional temporary members for when there are either people missing.

I also believe that in cases where you are struggling to reach a majority you add an adjudicator to break ties.

[Korts]

I'm looking through the old open setup discussion thread for setups worth review; a setup that springs to mind as something that should be explored is Crush.

Crush

• * 1 Mafia Godfather (vengeful-style)
  * 1 Mafia Goon
  * 1 Lyncher (informed of their target)
  * 4 Townies (one of whom is unknowingly the lyncher's target)
  Day Start

[Thok]

I'm looking through the old open setup discussion thread for setups worth review; a setup that springs to mind as something that should be explored is Crush.

If you need suggestions for set ups to confirm, please talk about some form of Friends and Enemies

3 Mafia
3 Masons
6 Vanilla Town

Tweak it if you have to, but it's clearly the set up that was closest to the "run 3 times" rule used to originally pick set ups (it was run twice in Open Games as is, and twice more with various tweaks, and it was based off of a slightly different set up run by Thesp before the Open Queue existed), and it's clearly a set up that adds something to the approved games list that isn't already there.

[farside22]

I'm looking through the old open setup discussion thread for setups worth review; a setup that springs to mind as something that should be explored is Crush.

If you need suggestions for set ups to confirm, please talk about some form of Friends and Enemies

3 Mafia
3 Masons
6 Vanilla Town

Tweak it if you have to, but it's clearly the set up that was closest to the "run 3 times" rule used to originally pick set ups (it was run twice in Open Games as is, and twice more with various tweaks, and it was based off of a slightly different set up run by Thesp before the Open Queue existed), and it's clearly a set up that adds something to the approved games list that isn't already there.

I agree

[Adel]

3 Mafia
3 Masons
x Vanilla Town

which value for x balances this setup?

According to mith's ev spreadsheet in the numbers thread, between 43 and 46 vanilla townies balances out a 3-person scum group... so how many townies is 3 masons worth?

9? 25? 41?


previous runs: Open 78: Friends & Enemies (Over) - before 608 :: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... ds+enemies :: x=6 :: mafia win


Open 63 -- Friends and Enemies 2.0 (Denouement) before 562 :: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... ds+enemies :: x=6 :: mafia win

Open 42 - Friends and Enemies - (Game Over) before 495 :: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... ds+enemies :: x=5 :: mafia win

Open 21 - Friends and Enemies (Game Over), before 453 :: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... ds+enemies :: x=5 :: mafia win

I think the proper x value for a 3 player scumgroup should be much higher. I think we should certify a 2-scum variant first.

2 mafia goons
2 masons
x townies

EV for 2 scum is between 20 and 24 townies.

I don't like using EV like this, the numbers are so counter-intuitive to me.

My educated guess is that 2 masons in this set-up are worth ~5 townies, which would yield between 15 and 19 townies, and two scum, for a 17 to 21 player game.

[mith]

As a quick back-of-the-envelope type of calculation, 3:3:5 has an EV of around 21% if the masons claim immediately. It is almost certainly better for them to not claim immediately, and I'd guess the EV is closer to 30%.

2:2:7 should be reasonable, I would think. 2:9 already has an acceptable EV of 35.21%, and the masons might bump that a bit. If you're aiming for 50-50, 2:2:13 is probably about right.

[shaft.ed]

If you're aiming for 50-50, 2:2:13 is probably about right.

So why are we always playing games at 3:9?

[Max]

More fun, shorter, and in with the number of power roles added it is balanced.

But vanilla wise, and on paper, it is generally it is far more fun...

[Adel]

As a quick back-of-the-envelope type of calculation, 3:3:5 has an EV of around 21% if the masons claim immediately. It is almost certainly better for them to not claim immediately, and I'd guess the EV is closer to 30%.

which is the same as the EV for 3:16 or 3:17, so 3 masons are worth ~11 townies? Then 40-11=29, so 3:3:18 would be about 50%? Am I doing this right?

2:2:7 should be reasonable, I would think. 2:9 already has an acceptable EV of 35.21%, and the masons might bump that a bit. If you're aiming for 50-50, 2:2:13 is probably about right.

I wish we would figure out what the "acceptable" range is. I've been shooting for 50-50 for two faction games. If we are going to make progress on the multiball (three faction) games I thin we first need to figure out what the target EV for each faction is.

nominate 2:2:11

for friends an enemies. I estimate the town will have a >40% EV, and could easily be higher in practice.

[mith]

I would avoid trying to put things in terms of "How many Townies is this role/group worth?". It's not that simple. The strength of the Mason group depends on how many Mafia/Townies there are. For that matter, the worth of additional Townies depends on how big the game already was (but the strengths of the Mason group and the Townies don't diminish at the same rate).

2:2:7 is probably already 40%. As a better strategy than the Masons coming out immediately, we can just pick a random player, have them claim, if they claim townie, lynch them, if they claim Mason we ask for a counter; if there is a counter, we ask the original claim to verify by outing their buddy (Mafia won't ever fake this unless it somehow gets to 2:2:1, since it's a instant loss for them; for that matter, they won't ever counter either, but this is just to be safe). Would need a bit of adjustment for endgame, but should still be a significant improvement. I'll see if I can work out the exact EV for this sort of setup when I am a little more inspired.